Penn State

[am1]

You are saying it is a good thing, because you said if you were hiring it would affect whether you took a PSU grad. Very sad. There are 45,000 students enrolled at that campus. 90,000 at all of them combined.
The drunks and angered students who overturned the van are accountable for their actions. Anyone who participated in a coverup is responsible for that. Why would you smear people who knew nothing about it?
I hope you are not involved in any hiring authority or in the justice system. Students past and present are just as shocked as the rest of us.

The bad good way/bad way was about hiring students based on their colleges sports powers. That is the way I feel about it. I do not care to debate it as it is not important to this discussion. If I was to see a resume from a Penn state grad the first thing I would think of was them rioting. You are right that many more did not riot but it is what it is. I am not aware that not hiring because of university attended was a protected class.

We will see how many recruits pass on the university as well as applicants.

 

[pjrose]

The amazing thing to me is that Penn State students rioted in support of Joe Paterno. What kind of an education are they getting? . . . .

It's not at all amazing to those of us who live up here; JoePa is an icon, even a god. Penn State Football is sacred, as is Joe. I think at first that many of us (me included) saw him as a scapegoat, as an unimpeachable man of honor.

Interestingly, tonight the students are holding a different kind of demonstration, this time a vigil for Sandusky's victims.

http://www.whptv.com/news/local/sto...candlelight-vigil/9wG5BLQ4C0-Qdd8K7vz-1Q.cspx

 

[pjrose]

Everything he did was overlooked by the witnesses and covered up by the folks who held the power. His victims, the young boys who probably number in the hundreds when you consider that he began his Second Mile foundation back in 1977, were all sacrificed to protect The Penn State Football Program.

THAT'S why the team should not be allowed to finish out this season, and why the school should not be allowed to field a team at all until every single person who holds a position in the football program or on the board is removed from that position. Every game that is played and every power position that remains as is, is a slap in the face to the victims who were sacrificed for the program.

I think I disagree here, because the team is made up of students, who shouldn't be punished for the transgressions of the staff and administration.

I say "I think," because I've already changed my mind a few times from reading the very thoughtful and informative posts of my TUG buddies!

 

[am1]

I think I disagree here, because the team is made up of students, who shouldn't be punished for the transgressions of the staff and administration.

I say "I think," because I've already changed my mind a few times from reading the very thoughtful and informative posts of my TUG buddies!

This is the way it currently is. Current students pay for former students and coaches decisions. In this case, Penn state could strip pensions and ban from the employees from campus but have little other authority.

 

[SueDonJ]

Kal said this earlier in the thread, "Next sickening moment will be the student and alumni reaction on Saturday. Does anybody really believe that the team was unaware of what was going on? Away from the locker room you could only imagine how the chit-chat propagated - "don't tell anybody but here is something about coach you won't believe...."

I think that's correct - it's entirely possible that the players could have had knowledge of what was happening in that program. But regardless of which team members knew or didn't, from this point on everyone involved with Penn State should be singly focused on making things right with the victims. It's not enough, IMO, that eventually the school will pay millions in fines and settlements. It's not enough, IMO, that the Head Coach will not be able to be on that field. What's needed now is for those victims to see that the university is placing their well-being ahead of the sainted team's ability to take the field.

Where is the NCAA in all of this? Why aren't they all over it? Other schools have had their programs temporarily suspended for actions far less damaging than what's been happening at Penn State for far too long. Innocent players on those suspended teams had no choice but to suffer for the actions of a few, as sad as that may be. But some things are more important than football and it is long past time for Penn State officials to make that correct determination. There is no reason why any innocent players on Penn State's team should be more important than the victims of the scandal that was allowed to fester in their program. If the NCAA isn't stepping in here to force the university to take the hard steps on the road to recovery, the university trustees should be doing it. They began with the decisive correct removal of Spanier and Paterno. But they can't stop there. The one thing they can do NOW is show the victims and the rest of the world that their football program is NOT the be-all and end-all of the university, by not allowing the team to take the field. IMO.

 

[laurac260]

Kal said this earlier in the thread, "Next sickening moment will be the student and alumni reaction on Saturday. Does anybody really believe that the team was unaware of what was going on? Away from the locker room you could only imagine how the chit-chat propagated - "don't tell anybody but here is something about coach you won't believe...."

I think that's correct - it's entirely possible that the players could have had knowledge of what was happening in that program. But regardless of which team members knew or didn't, from this point on everyone involved with Penn State should be singly focused on making things right with the victims. It's not enough, IMO, that eventually the school will pay millions in fines and settlements. It's not enough, IMO, that the Head Coach will not be able to be on that field. What's needed now is for those victims to see that the university is placing their well-being ahead of the sainted team's ability to take the field.

Where is the NCAA in all of this? Why aren't they all over it? Other schools have had their programs temporarily suspended for actions far less damaging than what's been happening at Penn State for far too long. Innocent players on those suspended teams had no choice but to suffer for the actions of a few, as sad as that may be. But some things are more important than football and it is long past time for Penn State officials to make that correct determination. There is no reason why any innocent players on Penn State's team should be more important than the victims of the scandal that was allowed to fester in their program. If the NCAA isn't stepping in here to force the university to take the hard steps on the road to recovery, the university trustees should be doing it. They began with the decisive correct removal of Spanier and Paterno. But they can't stop there. The one thing they can do NOW is show the victims and the rest of the world that their football program is NOT the be-all and end-all of the university, by not allowing the team to take the field. IMO.

That's certainly a compelling argument Sue. I think the game will be allowed to go on. It will be interesting to see how ESPN covers it, assuming they still broadcast the game?

 

[Elan]

Kal said this earlier in the thread, "Next sickening moment will be the student and alumni reaction on Saturday. Does anybody really believe that the team was unaware of what was going on? Away from the locker room you could only imagine how the chit-chat propagated - "don't tell anybody but here is something about coach you won't believe...."

I think that's correct - it's entirely possible that the players could have had knowledge of what was happening in that program. But regardless of which team members knew or didn't, from this point on everyone involved with Penn State should be singly focused on making things right with the victims. It's not enough, IMO, that eventually the school will pay millions in fines and settlements. It's not enough, IMO, that the Head Coach will not be able to be on that field. What's needed now is for those victims to see that the university is placing their well-being ahead of the sainted team's ability to take the field.

Where is the NCAA in all of this? Why aren't they all over it? Other schools have had their programs temporarily suspended for actions far less damaging than what's been happening at Penn State for far too long. Innocent players on those suspended teams had no choice but to suffer for the actions of a few, as sad as that may be. But some things are more important than football and it is long past time for Penn State officials to make that correct determination. There is no reason why any innocent players on Penn State's team should be more important than the victims of the scandal that was allowed to fester in their program. If the NCAA isn't stepping in here to force the university to take the hard steps on the road to recovery, the university trustees should be doing it. They began with the decisive correct removal of Spanier and Paterno. But they can't stop there. The one thing they can do NOW is show the victims and the rest of the world that their football program is NOT the be-all and end-all of the university, by not allowing the team to take the field. IMO.

The NCAA has already addressed the situation. Their stance is to let the legal action run it's course. Furthermore, the NCAA is about maintaining fairness in competition, not punishment for criminal acts. The violations that occurred were criminal, but provided PSU with no competitive athletic advantage (to the best of my knowledge). Lastly, the NCAA takes forever to do anything. If they began an investigation yesterday, it'd likely take 3 months or more before we heard their findings. Just the way it is........

 

[pjrose]

. . . Away from the locker room you could only imagine how the chit-chat propagated - "don't tell anybody but here is something about coach you won't believe...."

I don't think so, because Sandusky has been gone for a long time. My guess is that the current and recent students were clueless.

 

[laurac260]

Well, Sandusky is out on bail. Bizarre. My husband thinks he will end his life before he ever sees the inside of a courtroom.

 

[beejaybee]

Musings

Is it possible the DA took his own life over guilt of not investigating/prosecuting charges in '98?

Is it possible that McQuary himself was victimized by a pedophile- perhaps even Sandusky?

There needs to be complete confidentiality for reporters of abuse. In our county, suspicions/allegations are investigated by Children's Services. No matter how "minor" something might appear (e.g. horseplay), it should be reported and investigated. If an extensive media campaign to raise awareness and encourage people to report, with their anonymity guaranteed, the chain-of-command protocols in place in so many institutions could be avoided.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I suspect it's taken time for everything to process. It's hit everyone across the nation hard, I can't imagine what it's like for the students at Penn State. Thus shifting focus on the victims (pjrose thanks for the link) seems like a logical progression to me. I hate to even say 'If anything good can come of this'... but if anything good can come of this it will be increased awareness of child sexual abuse and the repurcussions of looking the other way or covering it up.

Prayers are with the victims of Sandusky and all victims of sexual abuse (obviously this has opened wounds for countless people) and the students of Penn State (this list could on forever as the list of people affected goes on forever).

As far as playing the game. Game days here in Nebraska are big in this house. I never thought I'd ever hear my husband say Nebraska shouldn't play a game. Play or not, there are no winners today.

Yes Laura, I was kind of surprised to see that Sandusky was out on bail. (OK, had to delete the rest of my thoughts on that).

Thanks TUG for being such a great sounding board.

 

[JudyS]

The Penn State situation is truly appalling. I taught at colleges for 15 years and have seen first hand how administrators care more about protecting their school's reputation than they do about protecting crime victims.

At one of the schools where I used to teach, Eastern Michigan University, a female student was raped and murdered by an intruder (a non-student who was apparently a stranger to her.) The administration claimed the student had died of an asthma attack! Other students and the community did not know the student was murdered until the local police announced they were charging a man with murdering her. (I imagine the administrators would have preferred that the police not even be involved, but it's kind of hard to keep the police out of a case when there's a dead body.)

The Eastern Michigan University case turned into a huge scandal and several members of the Board of Regents resigned, but I don't think any administrators faced criminal charges, even though the Campus Security Act requires college administrators to notify the public of crimes that occur on campus. If no suspect had ever been caught, Eastern Michigan University might have gotten away with their cover-up.

At least in Michigan, where I live, college employees are not mandated reporters. This is because college jobs typically do not involve contact with children. In the 15 years I taught at colleges (plus several years as a graduate assistant), I was never given any sort of training on what to do if I witnessed or heard of a crime. (Administrators are supposed to report crimes that have taken place, but there are no reporting requirements for rank-and-file employees.) I think this lack of training for college employees is another sign that administrators don't really care about stopping crimes on their campuses. I am not trying to excuse any of the Penn State employees, where the crime involved was extremely severe and it should have been obvious that the police needed to be notified. However, I do believe colleges should be more pro-active and train their employees about what to do if they suspect a crime has occurred, especially since not all crimes are as clear-cut as the ones at Penn State. Hopefully, the Penn State situation will make colleges take crimes more seriously.

 

[Carta]

I'm weighing in on this waaay too late... But please hear me: If u have not read the complete "Indictment", You cannot voice your opinion..... Please Google the indictment.... It's public info

 

[laurac260]

I'm weighing in on this waaay too late... But please hear me: If u have not read the complete "Indictment", You cannot voice your opinion..... Please Google the indictment.... It's public info

Agreed. I have been on a few forums reading people's comments, and you can tell who has read it and who has not bothered. A disclaimer is warranted though. It is graphic in nature and very troubling indeed.

On a side note, I watched the beginning of the game before heading to the OSU game. I was touched at how the team handled the beginning of the game, and props to ESPN for their beginning of the game coverage (note I only watched the first 3 minutes, the prayer at the beginning and the commentary afterward). I felt alot of sympathy for the students in the stands.

 

[bogey21]

One talk show that I listened to brought up an interesting point about Joe Paterno, who is over 80 years old. He grew up in a generation that was less aware of issues like child molestation, and found them extremely embarrassing and difficult to deal with, and something that was not discussed openly. If that was his mind-set, it may have seemed like this was too indecent for public discussion, and the best way was to quietly report it to administration, and let them handle it privately.

I, too, can understand this. I am in my late 70s and grew up in an ethnic neighborhood in Philadelphia. The adults I remember were hard working, church going, focused on their family and tended to mind their own business. If behavioral issues took place within their family or neighborhood they took care of it themselves. Otherwise it was someone else's problem to solve. We may not agree with this today, but that was the way it was.

George

 

[ondeadlin]

There was some absolutely shameful behavior at the game today from people who are obviously incapable of keeping football in perspective.

It breaks my heart that not one person stopped to help this guy as he was being abused.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/12/penn-state-stadium-profanity-scorn-joe-paterno/

 

[Tia]

Took plenty of courage and guts to do what he did, and it's sad statement of ignorant people in this world.

There was some absolutely shameful behavior at the game today from people who are obviously incapable of keeping football in perspective.

It breaks my heart that not one person stopped to help this guy as he was being abused.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/12/penn-state-stadium-profanity-scorn-joe-paterno/

 

[Mel]

So emphatically YES, I can tell you what I would do, what I have done, when I witness a child being abused. I stand up. I speak out. I don't care who hears me, I don't care what the person doing the abusing has to say. I will intervene. I will call the police. I have done it and will again if I have to. Until you walk in that child's shoes you will never know what it is like to be them. I do. It sucks. And I could not look at myself in the mirror if I didn't stand up for a child, like no one stood up for me. So how McQueary looks at himself in the mirror every day is beyond me. Sorry if that sounds sanctimonious, but it is what it is.

I understand you would report what you saw, but you are not McQuary, nor are any of the rest of us. I honestly don't think most of us truly know what we would do in that situation. We would like to think we would do the right thing, but there are so many other factors that weigh into the equation. In your case, you are inclined to see things from the victims perspective, but most of us here are not. With hindsight, perhaps McQuary would do things differently too.

Is it possible the DA took his own life over guilt of not investigating/prosecuting charges in '98?

Is it possible that McQuary himself was victimized by a pedophile- perhaps even Sandusky?

There needs to be complete confidentiality for reporters of abuse. In our county, suspicions/allegations are investigated by Children's Services. No matter how "minor" something might appear (e.g. horseplay), it should be reported and investigated. If an extensive media campaign to raise awareness and encourage people to report, with their anonymity guaranteed, the chain-of-command protocols in place in so many institutions could be avoided.

Confidentiality would be a good step, but it doesn't really solve the problem. If McQuary had reported what he saw to police, it would have been obvious it was him - Sandusky saw him.

Judging from the reaction we've seen of students on campus the other evening, and the fans on their way to the game today, I can understand why he didn't go any further than reporting to Paterno. If he had taken it further, after reporting to Paterno, it would have called into question what Paterno had done - and we might have seen him fired for the same reasons 9 years ago. And McQuary would have been seen as disloyal to the program and to the school. Even now the school says he did not coach today because of threats - were they from those who thought he should have reported what he saw 9 years ago, or perhaps more likely from those who think he should have kept his mouth shut. All the other witnesses brought down Sandusky - only McQuary brought down Joe Paterno.

 

[vacationhopeful]

I got an answer for a verbal and hostile situation witness:

"I walked away and looked away; so thankful that if was NOT me being attacked."

 

[pjrose]

There was some absolutely shameful behavior at the game today from people who are obviously incapable of keeping football in perspective.

It breaks my heart that not one person stopped to help this guy as he was being abused.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/12/penn-state-stadium-profanity-scorn-joe-paterno/

Wow, just shaking my head. Two men did pull away one woman who was yelling at him.
And then the pamphlets about child sexual abuse littering the ground - what thoughtless slobs.

 

[geoand]

He is an incredibly good human being, notwithstanding the fact that he could have and should have been a better one.

His public personna was that he is a good human being. His act of ignoring the child proves that he is not a good human being.

If he was told by a GA that the GA witnessed a murder in the shower room and Joe then told his boss about it and nothing else would you still think he was an incredible human being? He has shown me such a lack of character that I could not think of him as good human being.

 

[geoand]

Re: Paterno.
If only the guy had retired a long time ago, when he should have, like at age 72, he might have somehow managed to keep his reputation intact. Instead, he hung around far too long, like a petrified tree, and now, its forever tarnished.

Tarnished because of what he did, not because he stayed too long. By not taking action he did allow this stuff to continue.

 

[geoand]

Is that just K-12, or also colleges?

It just befuddles this simple mind that we have to pass a law stating who reports a crime to the police. I see something bad happen, I try to stop it and I report it to the police. If I am in danger because I see something bad happen, I call police first and then try to stop it. To me, that is what we are supposed to do for each other.

 

[Talent312]

IMHO, Paterno's advanced age likely played a significant role in his failure to recognize and adequately perform his responsibility. As we move into old age, our thinking becomes more restricted to familiar routines. Our cognitive capacity is less able to grasp the significance of things outside of our experience and we become more products of our past than the present.

Schools need to recognize when the time comes to put doddering icons out to pasture, both for their sake, and the sake of those for whom they are responsible. There are reasons why there are mandatory retirement ages in certain professions, like for pilots, judges, etc. It has to do with the ability to think critically about new information and to exercise good judgment when dealing with them.

At least FSU finally found the fortitude to give Bobby Bowden the boot. The tendancy is to leave old doddering cogers in place becuz they seem relatively harmless, but that is exactly when things start to go awry.

 

[Timeshare Von]

Somewhere in the comments today, someone said that none of us know what we would have done if we had witnessed what McQuary did. True, none of us are in his shoes with his history with the college or people involved.

That said, I've forced the issue in my professional life more than once over ethics and moral issues and ended up either quitting or being fired for doing so. I can assure you, there is no doubt in my mind as to what I would have done!!!