Penn State

[Elan]

You're talking about reported by the school to the local police here, right?

Yes, reported by the school. But that may be (I don't know) in the form of a quarterly report, etc.

Edited to add: If we have anyone here who knows the proper interpretation of the Campus Security Act, I'd like to have it explained more precisely.

 

[pjrose]

PA Mandated Reporting Requirements:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter42/s42.42.html

(b) Staff members of public or private agencies, institutions and facilities. Licensees who are staff members of a medical or other public or private institution, school, facility or agency, and who, in the course of their employment, occupation or practice of their profession, come into contact with children shall immediately notify the person in charge of the institution, school facility or agency or the designated agent of the person in charge when they have reasonable cause to suspect on the basis of their professional or other training or experience, that a child coming before them in their professional or official capacity is a victim of child abuse. Upon notification by the licensee, the person in charge or the designated agent shall assume the responsibility and have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made in accordance with subsections (a), (c) and (d).

According to this timeline

http://espn.go.com/college-football...dates-penn-state-nittany-lions-sex-abuse-case

The first Paterno was told of an incident was March 2, 2002, and he reported it the athletic director Curley on March 3, 2002. That then was discussed with Senior VP for Finance and Business Curley later in the month; it was reported to The Second Mile, but nothing came of it in legal channels until December 2010.

Questions:
Does JoPa "in the course of...employment...come into contact with children"?
Did the "child [come] before [him]"?

And regardless of those, He did "immediately notify the person in charge...or the designated agent..." at which point "the person in charge or the designated agent shall assume the responsibility and have the legal obligation to report..."

Hence it seems to me that JoePa did follow the Mandated Reporting Requirements (if those even apply to him - not sure if a college coach comes into contact with "children").

Morally, should he have done more? Probably. I know I would have kept at it and called police and child welfare myself. Everyone who knew should have called police and child welfare, morally, but according to the mandated reporting law, it appears that telling your higher-up is sufficient.

In any case, it is outrageous that this many years have gone by without the allegations getting serious attention.

 

[DeniseM]

In California, by law - teachers and other school staff must make the report to the authorities themselves.

 

[Elan]

From ABC News:

Federal Investigation of Penn State Allegations

The end of the line for Paterno and Spanier at Penn State came a few hours after the U.S. Department of Education announced it was launching an investigation into whether university officials mishandled the allegations.

The Education Department is checking to see if the university failed to comply with the Jeanne Clery Disclosure of Campus Security Policy and Campus Crime Statistics Act (the Clery Act), which requires colleges to disclose reported criminal offenses on campus.

"If these allegations of sexual abuse are true, then this is a horrible tragedy for those young boys," Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in a news release. "If it turns out that some people at the school knew of the abuse and did nothing or covered it up, that makes it even worse. Schools and school officials have a legal and moral responsibility to protect children and young people from violence and abuse."

 

[SueDonJ]

Yes, reported by the school. But that may be (I don't know) in the form of a quarterly report, etc.

Edited to add: If we have anyone here who knows the proper interpretation of the Campus Security Act, I'd like to have it explained more precisely.

Here's a summary of the Clery Act. It looks like schools have to keep a log of reported crimes, give "timely warnings" about current crimes, and compile an annual report of crime statistics before Oct 1 each year.

The more you hear about this the more terrifying it becomes. This morning on WEEI in Boston they interviewed Mark Madden, a journalist who wrote a column last April about Jerry Sandusky. (Why that column didn't garner more attention at the time is another mystery to add to the list.) Well, this morning Madden said,

"I can give you a rumor and I can give you something I think might happen," Madden told John Dennis and Gerry Callahan. "I hear there's a rumor that there will be a more shocking development from the Second Mile Foundation -- and hold on to your stomachs, boys, this is gross, I will use the only language I can -- that Jerry Sandusky and Second Mile were pimping out young boys to rich donors. That was being investigated by two prominent columnists even as I speak."

I know, it's a rumor and there's danger in putting too much stock into rumors. But Madden's history makes him a somewhat believable source, certainly someone who has the contacts to learn about Sandusky and the whole mess. IF (big IF!) what he said this morning is true, then I can understand why McQueary, the janitor who also witnessed Sandusky with a young boy, and many others connected to Penn State and Second Mile would be extremely hesitant to come forward with what they knew. It seems highly unlikely that the missing DA isn't connected to all this.

 

[pjrose]

In California, by law - teachers and other school staff must make the report to the authorities themselves.

Is that just K-12, or also colleges?

 

[laurac260]

There are at least a half-dozen states (Pennsylvania, Virginia, Georgia, Massachusetts, Missouri and South Dakota) where the protocol for staff members of schools is to notify the person in charge in the event of suspected child abuse. That superior is then legally obliged to report to the authorities.

There's just one problem here. There's a difference between "I heard that so and so is doing something to little kids," and " I SAW so and so do an explicit act TO a small child." The former is suspected. The latter isn't. I go with a previous poster. Anyone who witnessed what the grad student witnessed, and handled it by turning his back on the poor child and walking away, (which is indeed what he did), has blood on his hands, so to speak. I don't think McQueary deserves a pass like he is currently getting. I could not live with myself if I had turned my back and walked out on that little child. Could you????

 

[pjrose]

There's just one problem here. There's a difference between "I heard that so and so is doing something to little kids," and " I SAW so and so do an explicit act TO a small child." The former is suspected. The latter isn't. I go with a previous poster. Anyone who witnessed what the grad student witnessed, and handled it by turning his back on the poor child and walking away, (which is indeed what he did), has blood on his hands, so to speak. I don't think McQueary deserves a pass like he is currently getting. I could not live with myself if I had turned my back and walked out on that little child. Could you????

I agree that he should have stopped it then and there, but at least he reported it.....and it moved up the line a few times and then stopped.

 

[laurac260]

I agree that he should have stopped it then and there, but at least he reported it.....and it moved up the line a few times and then stopped.

I guess that depends on what the definition of the word "reporting" is!

 

[laurac260]

As a Buckeyes fan I can help but picture Jim Tressel sitting home right now thinking, "How you like ME now?"

 

[Elan]

It's not a stretch to consider that McQueary reported the crime to the most powerful man on campus. I would guess that Paterno likely had enough power/influence to have the president removed if he had ever wanted to do so. Forty six years at one institution in a position as visible as head football coach gives one that type of influence.

 

[laurac260]

It's not a stretch to consider that McQueary reported the crime to the most powerful man on campus. I would guess that Paterno likely had enough power/influence to have the president removed if he had ever wanted to do so. Forty six years at one institution in a position as visible as head football coach gives one that type of influence.

Well, we can argue this point till we are blue in the face, but I have to agree that it does seem JoePa was the most powerful man on campus. I honestly thought he was above this sort of thing, but you know what they say about absolute power.

It is just sad what some will do, or not do, to protect a reputation. It shouldn't have been the reputation of the school that was destroyed, but in the end, when Jerry Sandusky is just another pedophile in prison, we will all remember the day that Happy Valley was happy no more.


Sometime in the next 12 months we are going to be reading Joe Pa's obit. This will surely kill him.

 

[bogey21]

How McQueary didn't also lose his job is beyond me.

Is it possible he is protected by the Pennsylvania Whistleblower Act?

George

 

[pjrose]

How McQueary didn't also lose his job is beyond me. . . . .

I don't see why he should - he's the one who reported it, discussed it with at least three university officials and was then never questioned by university police.

I guess that depends on what the definition of the word "reporting" is!

Well, he was a student at the time, so wasn't a mandated reporter - he reported it to his father, then the coach, who then reported it to the Athletic Director and the VP. Any and all of the above should have called the police immediately.

And yes, McQueary morally should have yelled STOP, taken the kid to safety, and called the police - but I'm a lot less likely to blame a student than the adults who did nothing (i.e. Curley and Schultz). And they WEREN'T fired.

Why should those who DID report it - at least to higher-ups - be fired but NOT the higher-ups who didn't pursue it???

 

[1950bing]

Boy, this is a hard one. I think that most people think highly of JoePa as good man. When I think of him and all that he has done for Penn State and NCAA football as to what Richard Petty did for NASCAR.( I know I know Petty never harmed boys but work with me here ) JoePa,s numbers will never be repeated !
However what happened to the young boys is horriable and cannot go over looked. Someone failed the boys. They are the ones hurt here.
Is this one of the, what did he know and when ? Did JoePa do what was required of him back when this happened ? You can't bring into todays laws and apply them to what happened back when it happened. Is the blame misdirected ?
Like I said this is a hard one. I know people will call me crazy but I see this similar to what happened in Egypt. The president was exposed, said he would
quit at his term end and then got run out.
Again, what happened to the boys is awful. I just hate to hear it.
Boy, this is a hard one.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Just makes you sick to your stomach.

I agree with those who said, anyone connected with this has to go.

 

[laurac260]

Boy, this is a hard one. I think that most people think highly of JoePa as good man. When I think of him and all that he has done for Penn State and NCAA football as to what Richard Petty did for NASCAR.( I know I know Petty never harmed boys but work with me here ) JoePa,s numbers will never be repeated !
However what happened to the young boys is horriable and cannot go over looked. Someone failed the boys. They are the ones hurt here.
Is this one of the, what did he know and when ? Did JoePa do what was required of him back when this happened ? You can't bring into todays laws and apply them to what happened back when it happened. Is the blame misdirected ?
Like I said this is a hard one. I know people will call me crazy but I see this similar to what happened in Egypt. The president was exposed, said he would
quit at his term end and then got run out.
Again, what happened to the boys is awful. I just hate to hear it.
Boy, this is a hard one.

Go back and read about what happened when Sandusky "retired". Stuff was known. Stuff was swept under the rug and Mr. Sandusky went on to allegedly do this to more kids. Seems pretty easy to me. And the firings should go from McQueary on up. He wasn't a "kid", he was a 28 year old man. The fact that he was a student is irrelevant. Even an 18 year old freshman knows this sort of thing is wrong. If you see it, and turn your back to it, you are complicit. For a grown man, who is old enough to have kids, even old enough to have a 10 year old son of his own, to go home, "sleep on it", tell his daddy (again, we are talking about a 28 year old man), then go and tell a football coach???? A football coach? If your neighbor's house was burning down do you call a plumber? No, you call a fireman, and you call him NOW, not after you slept on it and decided whether you should get involved. A criminal act requires police intervention, not a football coach. Come on folks! What if this was your 10 year old? I have a 10 year old, and I'd be livid at the way McQueary handled the situation! And yet he's made out to be some sort of knight in armor? Sorry, but I won't give this guy a pass.

 

[SueDonJ]

Laura, that's a bit harsh, saying that those of us who are trying to understand McQueary's (and others') inaction are making a "knight in armor" out of him or "giving a pass" to any of them. Nobody has said that any of them deserve accolades or absolution.

I think what Sandusky was doing was known by many for years, probably long before it was reported to a level any higher than the Head Coach. I think it's conceivable that anything and everything in that area could have been sacrificed for the good of the football program - it certainly generated enough profit to make folks think twice about bringing public scrutiny anywhere near it. I don't think at all that it's outside the realm of probability that whenever those in the know talked about Sandusky that Joe Paterno laid down the law and forbade them to discuss it beyond their circle. I can envision that by the time McQueary actually witnessed Sandusky in action, all of Paterno's underlings were completely disgusted with the entire situation but knew that it had been going on so long that when it finally was public knowledge, it could bring down the entire program.

We'd all like to think that in McQueary's shoes we would have stopped Sandusky on the spot. Maybe. I really don't know what I would be able to do in such a traumatic situation if I happened on it in my safe world today. In that world, where as one of Paterno's minions I would have probably been indoctrinated to turn a blind eye and keep my mouth shut, I can well imagine that I would be powerless.

But all of that isn't to excuse McQueary and the others. Like we've all said, they all deserve to be removed from the program at the very least.

 

[Culli]

Go back and read about what happened when Sandusky "retired". Stuff was known. Stuff was swept under the rug and Mr. Sandusky went on to allegedly do this to more kids. Seems pretty easy to me. And the firings should go from McQueary on up. He wasn't a "kid", he was a 28 year old man. The fact that he was a student is irrelevant. Even an 18 year old freshman knows this sort of thing is wrong. If you see it, and turn your back to it, you are complicit. For a grown man, who is old enough to have kids, even old enough to have a 10 year old son of his own, to go home, "sleep on it", tell his daddy (again, we are talking about a 28 year old man), then go and tell a football coach???? A football coach? If your neighbor's house was burning down do you call a plumber? No, you call a fireman, and you call him NOW, not after you slept on it and decided whether you should get involved. A criminal act requires police intervention, not a football coach. Come on folks! What if this was your 10 year old? I have a 10 year old, and I'd be livid at the way McQueary handled the situation! And yet he's made out to be some sort of knight in armor? Sorry, but I won't give this guy a pass.

Knight in Armor!?!?!?!? NO WAY HE IS A COMPLETE COWARD and I can't understand how anyone could witness this and not stop it or make an attempt. Forget about the reporting part...they would have to report it after they dragged his butt to the hospital or the graveyard for me beating him to a pulp. The more that comes out about this the worse it gets and I have a feeling this is just the begining. As a Father (heck as human being) I can't believe that all these people knew and this guy was working out at the facility just last week...........are you kidding me?

 

[Talent312]

Re: Paterno.
If only the guy had retired a long time ago, when he should have, like at age 72, he might have somehow managed to keep his reputation intact. Instead, he hung around far too long, like a petrified tree, and now, its forever tarnished.

Perhaps the NCAA should set a mandatory retirement age for coaches, like the FAA does for pilots, becuz they have a responsibility for others and after a certain longevity, their judgment just isn't what it used to be.

 

[laurac260]

Sue, don't assume that I was referring to those on this board when I was saying he was made out to be a knight in armor, but the media sure is giving him a pass and treating him like he was some kind of hero. The man witnessed a 10 year old boy being sodomized. I don't give a rats pahtootie what people knew of Sandusky's prior behavior, or how people were told to behave. Anyone with a modicum of common sense and decency would stand up. The way you described it just makes the whole situation that much more despicable. Sorry, but I won't back down off this point. Shame on anyone who could say they wouldn't have defended the boy then and there.

edited today: I saw a picture of McQueary today. He's a big, football player dude. Sandusky notsomuch. McQueary could have easily leveled Sandusky and ended this whole mess then and there. Somewhere there is a 20 something young man who is hearing all this stuff in the news, and learning that someone saw what happened to him that day when he was 10 years old, and turned his back and did nothing. The boy probably didn't even realize there was a witness till now. Can you imagine how he must be feeling? McQueary's defense just got weaker. In my book he is the most complicit.

Laura, that's a bit harsh, saying that those of us who are trying to understand McQueary's (and others') inaction are making a "knight in armor" out of him or "giving a pass" to any of them. Nobody has said that any of them deserve accolades or absolution.

I think what Sandusky was doing was known by many for years, probably long before it was reported to a level any higher than the Head Coach. I think it's conceivable that anything and everything in that area could have been sacrificed for the good of the football program - it certainly generated enough profit to make folks think twice about bringing public scrutiny anywhere near it. I don't think at all that it's outside the realm of probability that whenever those in the know talked about Sandusky that Joe Paterno laid down the law and forbade them to discuss it beyond their circle. I can envision that by the time McQueary actually witnessed Sandusky in action, all of Paterno's underlings were completely disgusted with the entire situation but knew that it had been going on so long that when it finally was public knowledge, it could bring down the entire program.

We'd all like to think that in McQueary's shoes we would have stopped Sandusky on the spot. Maybe. I really don't know what I would be able to do in such a traumatic situation if I happened on it in my safe world today. In that world, where as one of Paterno's minions I would have probably been indoctrinated to turn a blind eye and keep my mouth shut, I can well imagine that I would be powerless.

But all of that isn't to excuse McQueary and the others. Like we've all said, they all deserve to be removed from the program at the very least.

 

[Passepartout]

Paterno has contacted a prominent criminal attorney.
__________________________________________
"By Michael Isikoff
NBC News National Investigative Correspondent

Joe Paterno has reached out to a prominent Washington criminal defense lawyer to represent him in the Penn State sex abuse case, a source close to the case told NBC News.

J. Sedgwick Sollers, who once represented President George H.W. Bush in the Iran-Contra affair, was contacted by Paterno's advisers on Thursday. But Sollers has not yet met with Paterno, and a formal retainer agreement has not been signed."
____________________________________________

I'd surmise there's gonna be a lot of 'Who knew what, when?' questions before this is finished. I want to see justice served in this matter as much as anyone, but for the (now) young men who went through this and have been trying to put their lives together, dredging up years' past abuse will open many old wounds.

Jim

 

[pjrose]

OK Laura, I accept your argument that McQueary didn't do enough and didn't do it quickly enough.

And meanwhile, Curley and Schultz remained part of Penn State until very recently when one retired and one is on administrative leave. And Sandusky is working out in a gym. Repulsive and Disgusting.

I don't think I would have fired JoePa, though - I think letting him end out the season would have been ok. However, none of us is privy to all the facts, and he may well have known more than we have been led to believe.

 

[am1]

I am sure this is going to get a lot worse. Who knew what when but also what else happened.

Not sure how he would still be welcomed on campus regardless of it being reported to police. I could not imagine seeing him and being able to live with it.

If McQueary went above the head coach he would have been out of a job at Penn State and possibly college football. Not that its right but its the way it is. He could also have thought that Paterno would report the crime to the police. But when there was no action then he could have went to the police himself.

Firing a lot of the people involved is for sure the right thing to do. The legality of it has a separate issue for the police to decide on. Penn State officials are expected to do better than what the law says. Not really sure who should be criminally charged other than Sandusky and the ones who perjured themselves.

Lets hope he gets the maximum and not get off on a technicality, statue of limitations, plea deal or other loop hole.

This is the worst thing to happen in college sports.

Penn state grads may have trouble getting a job in the future. I would question their judgement and priorities if I was the one hiring.

I think the game saturday should be cancelled, played at another site or in an empty stadium.

Hopefully this does some good in that people will know to stop it and or report to the police. Sadly, this happens all too often. The victims have to deal with it and many seem to have trouble with that. A few high profile cases in Canadian Junior hockey, at Maple Leaf Gardens and with a WWF employee. As well as a religious organization but lets not go there. There are lots more reported and have to be many more that are never reported.

 

[gpurtz]

2 of my 3 sons are Penn State grads. It is a wonderful academic institution. It is terrible that those administrators who could have ended Sandusky's tyranny in 2002 failed to do so. To give McQueary a pass is inexcusable. He was 28, not 18 or 8. Had he done what he should have done (dial 911), Sandusky would have been in prison during the past 9 years, not victimizing more young boys. As for Joe Pa, he could have and should have done more. For this reason, he had to go. I will not excuse Paterno for failing to do more, but I also will not forget what he has meant to Penn State, the millions of dollars he has raised for hundreds of charities, the lives he has touched both in and outside of football. He is an incredibly good human being, notwithstanding the fact that he could have and should have been a better one.