You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[TUGBrian]

im fascinated at how you can repeatedly tell a tesla/ev/etc owner they are wrong.... when never actually owning or driving one.

 

[Chrispee]

How many TUG members are driving a Tesla Model S Plaid or a Lucid Air Saphire
Asking for a friend

My last car was a Model S Performance (older version of the current Plaid model), and I'm pleased to report I never rotated the tires as it had surprisingly even tire wear despite my spirited driving style. It was also cheaper to operate than the Mazda CX-9 that it replaced.

 

[easyrider]

im fascinated at how you can repeatedly tell a tesla/ev/etc owner they are wrong.... when never actually owning or driving one.

I never said hitch hiker or anyone is wrong about their Tesla. I said other owners have reported these problems. There is a huge difference.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

I am not, but I do have an electric golf cart which I love!

My favorite EV, lol.

Bill

 

[letsgobobby]

It's an extra pita to have to look for and use a super charger. While you claim it only took you 15-20 minutes you well know that it can take much longer especially as more ev's need to charge. It definitely isn't as easy as going to the gas station.



Tesla's maintenance schedule is to rotate the the tires every 6500 miles. It's a safety thing because the weight on the suspension creates a tire camber that will wear out the inner side of the tire that can cause a blow out. When a low profile vehicle has a blow out in the front tire it can cause the car to flip. You are endangering yourself and your occupants by not following Tesla's rotation guidelines.



It's not a killer deal, it's another pita. You have to park in the same place every time which might be inconvenient if you need to off load anything or if someone parks in your spot.



I doubt that Tesla is going to freely help anyone whose resale value drops because of lower new model pricing. If anything, Tesla is known for charging for almost everything they can. These upgrades aren't free.



I haven't heard of these new EV tires so thanks for bringing them up. If the other tires are less expensive, wouldn't most tire buyers keep buying them ?



So what if this "creative disruption" becomes a matter of National Security ? The PRC is leading in EV production and lithium and rare earth minerals materials.

You know I could care less about what you drive, the incentives that allow this or your resale value. In some places it makes total sense to have an EV. California is one of those places. The weather is good for ev's on the coastal side of the state, plenty of repair facilities and gas prices are kind of high.

Bill

all strawmen

"PITA" to supercharge? there is a tiny learning curve. we've had our 3 for four weeks, We've figured it out. Drove 300 miles roundtrip day trip each of the last two weekends, stopped at a supercharger and added 35% in 12 minutes and on our way. just enough time to stretch out and grab a boba tea. real rough.

i charge off my 110v outlet most of the time. once in a while I - gasp - park next to my RV and charge off my 30 amp outlet. It's incredibly taxing, moving the EV fifteen whole feet. I didn't install a Tesla wall charger and don't plan to; don't need it.

Since buying the EV we've put 2800 miles on it. We've bought one tank of gas because my wife takes my 3 whenever she can so her hybrid RAV mostly just sits. She was a skeptic about an EV, said she'd have range anxiety... and now barely drives her other car.

The debate is over, EV is superior technology and only long distance driving or towing really demands an ICE or diesel at this point. It's simply a superior driving experience. It is quiet, rocket fast, corners on rails, and costs 1/3 or less to operate compared to a hybrid. As batteries get cheaper and charging infrastructure continues to improve EVs and PHEVs will eventually win the market.

 

[emeryjre]

I am not, but I do have an electric golf cart which I love!

How are your tires holding up
It has been said that electric vehicles can wear out tires faster than a gasoline model

 

[easyrider]

all strawmen

"PITA" to supercharge? there is a tiny learning curve. we've had our 3 for four weeks, We've figured it out. Drove 300 miles roundtrip day trip each of the last two weekends, stopped at a supercharger and added 35% in 12 minutes and on our way. just enough time to stretch out and grab a boba tea. real rough.

i charge off my 110v outlet most of the time. once in a while I - gasp - park next to my RV and charge off my 30 amp outlet. It's incredibly taxing, moving the EV fifteen whole feet. I didn't install a Tesla wall charger and don't plan to; don't need it.

Since buying the EV we've put 2800 miles on it. We've bought one tank of gas because my wife takes my 3 whenever she can so her hybrid RAV mostly just sits. She was a skeptic about an EV, said she'd have range anxiety... and now barely drives her other car.

The debate is over, EV is superior technology and only long distance driving or towing really demands an ICE or diesel at this point. It's simply a superior driving experience. It is quiet, rocket fast, corners on rails, and costs 1/3 or less to operate compared to a hybrid. As batteries get cheaper and charging infrastructure continues to improve EVs and PHEVs will eventually win the market.

Eventually, ev's might be the answer but currently there are plenty of issues. On page 1 of this thread I said this and I think it's a decent summary of where ev's are now,

"There will come a time that ice will be replaced by most likely ev's. The reason will be that technology will make ice obsolete. Until technology makes these gains and implements them, ice has all of the advantages over ev's including the issues in the article you posted. It's going to happen sooner than any of us think but longer than some of wish, imo."

Harvard Business School published an article that explains how ev's are not quite ready. Our geographical area has a lack of chargers and service for ev's and the article makes me wonder if building a super charger station is practical. There are ev's in the area, just not that many. I disagree with your analysis of costs which I think will be going up because of many factors including inflation. The only cost that may come down is the cost of a Tesla because they occasionally are over stocked and need to sell these before they get lot rot, imo.

Bill

https://www.hbs.edu/bigs/the-state-of-ev-charging-in-america

A pioneering scholarly review of 1 million EV charging station consumer reviews, led by a Harvard Business School fellow, reveals widespread dissatisfaction with the current state of EV charging infrastructure. Among other things, the deep dive into tomorrow’s gas station network estimates that drivers can successfully recharge their cars using non-residential EV equipment only 78% of the time, highlighting critical issues with reliability. The problems suggest there are business opportunities for entrepreneurs.

BOSTON — New data-driven research led by a Harvard Business School fellow reveals a significant obstacle to increasing electric vehicle (EV) sales and decreasing carbon emissions in the United States: owners’ deep frustration with the state of charging infrastructure, including unreliability, erratic pricing, and lack of charging locations.

The research proves that frustration extends beyond “range anxiety,” the common fear that EV batteries won't maintain enough charge to reach a destination. Current EV drivers don’t see that as a dominant issue. Instead, many have "charge anxiety," a fear about keeping an EV powered and moving, according to scholar Omar Asensio, the climate fellow at HBS’s Institute for the Study of Business in Global Society (BiGS) who led the study.

 

[davidvel]

You are way out of line calling anyone a troll. Knock it off. If you can't participate in the discussion properly you should just shut up, imo.


Bill

You are the definition of a troll. You have (unsupported) opinions and then go and try to find anecdotal random internet sites that you think are on your side. You deflect and ignore counter-proof, and use straw men and garbage stats. No different than you did from 2020 to the present.

By the way, who is lying to us about EVs?

 

[Carolinian]

Here is a new study from the UK that says an EV is almost twice as expensive to run as a diesel or petrol (gasoline) car - over 24p per mile for an EV compared with 12.5p per mile for a diesel car.

Running an electric car is twice as expensive as a petrol one

Electric cars are up to twice as expensive as petrol or diesel vehicles to run, new figures have suggested.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[Brett]

You are the definition of a troll. You have (unsupported) opinions and then go and try to find anecdotal random internet sites that you think are on your side. You deflect and ignore counter-proof, and use straw men and garbage stats. No different than you did from 2020 to the present.
View attachment 99815

By the way, who is lying to us about EVs?

Dr. Bill thinks the Chinese are lying to us about electric vehicles !

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...biggest-jump-2024-rho-motion-says-2024-08-12/

 

[DrQ]

This is from Reddit, so you can consider the source:

My daughter was denied a drivers license because she took the road test in a Tesla. AZDOT​

My daughter used our Model Y to take the road test a the AZDOT for her license yesterday. She passed the test but the computers at the DMV were down so she was told to come back the next day to receive her license. When she and my wife returned today, they were pulled out of line and told that my daughter would not be getting her license because the tester thought she was using FSD. When my wife explained that our car doesn't have FSD they backtracked and said that because she didn't touch the brake pedal enough and they thought the car was auto braking. She explained how regen worked but they refused to issue a license.​

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/1eaohis

 

[HitchHiker71]

Ev's don't have tie rods to adjust camber or caster. It's a complicated adjustment on a Tesla and seems to be weight sensitive. If the Tesla has negative camber you wouldn't notice until the tire shows a wear patern. From what I read on Reddit , owners of all models have reported inner tire wear. To me this means the camber is off when you buy it or goes off as you accelerate hard or brake hard and stress the suspension.

You could be right about normal models but there are camber problems reported on all models that are causing pre-mature tire wear to the inner side of the tire.

Bill

| Tesla

Correction code 31002300 FRT 0.54 NOTE: Unless otherwise explicitly stated in the procedure, the above correction code and FRT reflect all of the work required to perform this procedure, including the linked procedures. Do not stack correction codes unless explicitly told to do so. NOTE: See...

service.tesla.com

The Model 3 and Model Y vehicles do not have dedicated adjustment points for camber and caster. Instead, camber and caster are adjusted by manipulating the suspension lash and slop. The real-world accuracy of these adjustments is achieved by installing 68 kg (150 lbs) of ballast bags to simulate the presence of a driver and front passenger. Performing this service procedure without ballast bags compromises the real-world accuracy of the adjustments.

Yes, and this issue is often limited to owners who lower their vehicles using third party aftermarket parts. This is also clearly stated in Tesla's documentation - that lowering the suspension will produce negative camber and promote accelerated tire wear. That video you posted from the MSP owner - he had aftermarket tires and wheels, and the vehicle was riding very low - hence the negative camber - which again - is documented by Tesla - yet he conveniently neglected to mention this fact because it didn't fit with his narrative in his video. The majority of the time, whenever I've seen owners on TMC complain about camber issues - they neglect to mention that their vehicle is modified with aftermarket wheels, tires, on an aftermarket lowered suspension. There are also aftermarket camber adjustment kits that need to be installed when modifying ride height, but they are pricey and therefore many owners skip this all important step. Tesla will typically refuse to correct camber when aftermarket parts are installed on the vehicle for this reason.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Tesla stock (TSLA) is on the rise as investors await the company’s long-anticipated robotaxi debut and its third quarter sales figures.

Shares of the Elon Musk-helmed electric vehicle company jumped over 4% on Monday. Tesla is set to finally unveil its driverless cabs on Oct. 10 after months of delays. Also in early October, the company will announce its deliveries for the third quarter. Wall Street analysts forecast sales to rise 6% from last year to about 460,000 EVs.

10/10 is a big day for Tesla. Those of us who track Tesla closely are also hoping that Tesla will also announce new models coming to market that are based on the same platform that will be used for the robotaxi vehicle - or what has been rumored to be the magic $25k compact platform that will bring a very large volume production EV to the market - that will hopefully offer sedan, hatchback and smaller CUV variants - similar to the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla, Honda HR-V/Toyota Corolla Cross, etc. I'd estimate about a 50% chance this actually transpires on 10/10.

 

[letsgobobby]

Here is a new study from the UK that says an EV is almost twice as expensive to run as a diesel or petrol (gasoline) car - over 24p per mile for an EV compared with 12.5p per mile for a diesel car.

Running an electric car is twice as expensive as a petrol one

Electric cars are up to twice as expensive as petrol or diesel vehicles to run, new figures have suggested.

finance.yahoo.com

did you read the article?

it says superchargers in the UK may charge up to $1 (80 p) per kWh. Uh right. That's why you don't charge on a UK supercharger if you can avoid it. Tesla drivers do most of their charging at home. Not stopping at a gas station, or any station, is one of the great joys of EV ownership. The superchargers are just a backup, for long journeys.

The UK superchargers apparently cost $1 per kWh. The one near me costs 42 cents. The one I use most often (2x!) costs 30 cents.

I pay 8.9 cents at home, and I have solar.

Guess where I charge 90% of the time?

 

[letsgobobby]

Eventually, ev's might be the answer but currently there are plenty of issues. On page 1 of this thread I said this and I think it's a decent summary of where ev's are now,

"There will come a time that ice will be replaced by most likely ev's. The reason will be that technology will make ice obsolete. Until technology makes these gains and implements them, ice has all of the advantages over ev's including the issues in the article you posted. It's going to happen sooner than any of us think but longer than some of wish, imo."

Harvard Business School published an article that explains how ev's are not quite ready. Our geographical area has a lack of chargers and service for ev's and the article makes me wonder if building a super charger station is practical. There are ev's in the area, just not that many. I disagree with your analysis of costs which I think will be going up because of many factors including inflation. The only cost that may come down is the cost of a Tesla because they occasionally are over stocked and need to sell these before they get lot rot, imo.

Bill

https://www.hbs.edu/bigs/the-state-of-ev-charging-in-america

A pioneering scholarly review of 1 million EV charging station consumer reviews, led by a Harvard Business School fellow, reveals widespread dissatisfaction with the current state of EV charging infrastructure. Among other things, the deep dive into tomorrow’s gas station network estimates that drivers can successfully recharge their cars using non-residential EV equipment only 78% of the time, highlighting critical issues with reliability. The problems suggest there are business opportunities for entrepreneurs.

BOSTON — New data-driven research led by a Harvard Business School fellow reveals a significant obstacle to increasing electric vehicle (EV) sales and decreasing carbon emissions in the United States: owners’ deep frustration with the state of charging infrastructure, including unreliability, erratic pricing, and lack of charging locations.

The research proves that frustration extends beyond “range anxiety,” the common fear that EV batteries won't maintain enough charge to reach a destination. Current EV drivers don’t see that as a dominant issue. Instead, many have "charge anxiety," a fear about keeping an EV powered and moving, according to scholar Omar Asensio, the climate fellow at HBS’s Institute for the Study of Business in Global Society (BiGS) who led the study.

The Tesla supercharger network completely changed the paradigm on EVs. It was one of Elon's great insights about EVs - a fast, highly reliable, widely distributed charging network was essential for EV acceptance. All other charging networks pale in comparison. They are slow, hard to find, and unreliable. That's why over the next year or so all EVs are going to be able to use Tesla superchargers. Having a single standard - like the same size gasoline pump nozzle - is necessary to drive the technology forward.

 

[HitchHiker71]

How many TUG members are driving a Tesla Model S Plaid or a Lucid Air Saphire
Asking for a friend

I'd buy a 2022+ MSP if I could afford to do so. The Lucid Air Sapphire is $250k+ and therefore way out of any normal person's price range. The MSP is under $100k fully optioned, which is really an incredible deal considering the performance and usability. You can find used 2022+ MSPs for around $50-60k on the market to boot.

 

[x3 skier]

I think if you could replace the EV folks with one political party and the ICE Folks with the other (Doesn't matter which is which), you would have the same length of thread over equally inane comments on either side. (He types as he reaches for the ignore thread button)

 

[HitchHiker71]

It's kind of amusing that you say you don't get on the pedal especially when that's the entire fun of it, imo.

Bill

It's not my primary vehicle - it's my wife's daily driver. Like most women, she drives safely, hence the well known reason that men, particularly young men that are much more risk prone, pay much higher car insurance rates because men have more accidents and get more moving violations than women. Recently my wife has started to use FSD much more, so she's not even driving the vehicle any longer, she's supervising the vehicle which is driving itself now. I use FSD oftentimes when I drive the MY since I'm a Tesla stockholder and I want to experience firsthand how the software is improving over time as we march toward unsupervised FSD (robotaxi), which is debuting on 10/10/2024.

 

[tombanjo]

I can see the headlines now

"A group of small, innocent children, dressed as speed bumps for Halloween, were ruthless mowed down by an out of control RoboTaxi"


"RoboTaxi sued by invisible man when it refused to stop for him"

"My Daughter's RoboTaxi Hell - when she tried to get out with out paying, it kept her trapped !!!!"

etc

 

[HitchHiker71]

With regard to the topic of SDVs and the criticality of understanding why many legacy automakers won't make survive this transition or will have to buy their software from the innovators:

Toyota and Volkswagen fall further behind in the software race

Legacy carmakers have struggled to keep pace as the focus has turned from the engine to computing power

www.ft.com

Toyota and Volkswagen fall further behind in the software race

Legacy carmakers have struggled to keep pace as the focus has turned from the engine to computing power

www-ft-com.ezphost.dur.ac.uk

VW is making a $5 billion investment into Rivian - largely because they have tried and failed to create their own SDVs. Expect more of this type of thing to occur as we move forward. Tesla has had 12+ years to monetize their software, and most of the legacy manufacturers vastly underestimate the complexity of making this transition to SDVs. Most don't understand that the software is a critical underpinning to overall vehicle profitability especially over the long term. Tesla is the leader, having created SDVs in the first place. The Chinese are quickly catching up. In an earlier post I said that Ford and GM stand a chance, and, along with BMW, round out the top ten. VW saw the writing on the wall and is partnering with Rivian to solve this problem. Most of the rest will need to partner up if they are going to survive this transition long term, either that or basically reinvent the entire company rather quickly.

 

[easyrider]

Yes, and this issue is often limited to owners who lower their vehicles using third party aftermarket parts. This is also clearly stated in Tesla's documentation - that lowering the suspension will produce negative camber and promote accelerated tire wear. That video you posted from the MSP owner - he had aftermarket tires and wheels, and the vehicle was riding very low - hence the negative camber - which again - is documented by Tesla - yet he conveniently neglected to mention this fact because it didn't fit with his narrative in his video. The majority of the time, whenever I've seen owners on TMC complain about camber issues - they neglect to mention that their vehicle is modified with aftermarket wheels, tires, on an aftermarket lowered suspension. There are also aftermarket camber adjustment kits that need to be installed when modifying ride height, but they are pricey and therefore many owners skip this all important step. Tesla will typically refuse to correct camber when aftermarket parts are installed on the vehicle for this reason.

What I read is the strap is used to tighten the suspension. At 5 inches of stock clearance is there enough clearance to lower a Tesla considering that the jacking points use a puck type pad to prevent battery damage ?

To me, modifying a Tesla for a look really doesn't help because Tesla's all have that odd Tesla look with the exception of the old Roadster.

It's an interesting point you bring up regarding aftermarket parts. Tesla's are an over engineered vehicle that aftermarket parts seem like they wouldn't be as good as what Tesla designed, imo.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

The Tesla supercharger network completely changed the paradigm on EVs. It was one of Elon's great insights about EVs - a fast, highly reliable, widely distributed charging network was essential for EV acceptance. All other charging networks pale in comparison. They are slow, hard to find, and unreliable. That's why over the next year or so all EVs are going to be able to use Tesla superchargers. Having a single standard - like the same size gasoline pump nozzle - is necessary to drive the technology forward.

The Inflation Reduction Act has funds for businesses to build super charger stations. It's a credit capped at $100,000. It's too bad it isn't a business loan capped at $100,000. It's always something.

Bill

 

[dagger1]

How are your tires holding up
It has been said that electric vehicles can wear out tires faster than a gasoline model

Holding up extremely well. No issues. Of course top speed is 25 mph. Does great cruising the neighborhood with my grandkids. Oh, I have to say they like the golf cart more than I do…

 

[easyrider]

With regard to the topic of SDVs and the criticality of understanding why many legacy automakers won't make survive this transition or will have to buy their software from the innovators:

Toyota and Volkswagen fall further behind in the software race

Legacy carmakers have struggled to keep pace as the focus has turned from the engine to computing power

www.ft.com

View attachment 99830

VW is making a $5 billion investment into Rivian - largely because they have tried and failed to create their own SDVs. Expect more of this type of thing to occur as we move forward. Tesla has had 12+ years to monetize their software, and most of the legacy manufacturers vastly underestimate the complexity of making this transition to SDVs. Most don't understand that the software is a critical underpinning to overall vehicle profitability especially over the long term. Tesla is the leader, having created SDVs in the first place. The Chinese are quickly catching up. In an earlier post I said that Ford and GM stand a chance, and, along with BMW, round out the top ten. VW saw the writing on the wall and is partnering with Rivian to solve this problem. Most of the rest will need to partner up if they are going to survive this transition long term, either that or basically reinvent the entire company rather quickly.

I kind of doubt that battery tech will survive the better technology in the works. Partly because the infrastructure to support battery tech isn't available without using nuclear power, partly because of geo political unrest / environmental activism and the weight problem.

As more people switch to high end EV's to save on gas costs, they will find they really didn't save much considering all of the other costs involved in EV ownership. Especially to those owners that can't charge at home.

Maybe it's a generational thing but to me the Tesla looks like an unrefined , ugly, soul-less piece of plastic with no real style. These may be functional but they definitely lack style.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

What I read is the strap is used to tighten the suspension. At 5 inches of stock clearance is there enough clearance to lower a Tesla considering that the jacking points use a puck type pad to prevent battery damage ?

To me, modifying a Tesla for a look really doesn't help because Tesla's all have that odd Tesla look with the exception of the old Roadster.

It's an interesting point you bring up regarding aftermarket parts. Tesla's are an over engineered vehicle that aftermarket parts seem like they wouldn't be as good as what Tesla designed, imo.

Bill

There's definitely a growing aftermarket parts business for Tesla vehicles. I personally ordered aftermarket floormats and storage cubbies for our MY LR. There's lots of aftermarket suspension parts available as well, for example: https://unpluggedperformance.com/pr...dZMG1cXsw_hJ37Zzf08_p0n7b4nv3s7WArdJHps17Rdtm

Unplugged Performance® - Tesla Model S, 3, X, Y, Cybertruck Upgrades

Premium exterior & interior upgrades, aero, wheels, racing parts and bespoke customization for Tesla Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y and Cybertruck

unpluggedperformance.com