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You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

easyrider

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Mostly true- for now. But as time goes on, homes will be built with 240v already installed in garages, just like houses have 240v wired into laundry rooms now. Businesses will have charging spaces for clients and employees. Apartments will have charging facilities with app controlled EV chargers to attract long-term, stable residents.

Yes, young people will train for well-paying jobs as electricians and technicians to work on solar, and wind and who-knows-what-all. These jobs will be filled by people who don't necessarily need a 4-year degree. I don't see this as a 'bad' thing.

Does Twin Falls have very many EV charging points ? Twin Falls is a bit spread out considering the freeway is on the far north end of the city if I remember right.

Bill
 

easyrider

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Tesla will likely pull back on selling human driven vehicles

I wonder who is liable for accidents if there isn't a driver ? It seems like Tesla would be liable. It also seems like distracted driving if the software requires a driver to pay attention to the automated driving. There are going to accidents. Plenty of them. Who is at fault when two automated vehicles get into an accident ? Usually the owner of the vehicle is liable regarding accidents but if the vehicle requires no driver doesn't that shift the responsibility to the manufacturer ? What about traffic violations like speeding or failure to stop ? Who would get the ticket ?

Bill
 

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From what I see on the internet, many of the super charger locations are at hotels , gas stations, restaurants and shopping centers. The EV Go facilities , which are different from the Tesla super chargers , look like they are on there own lot. I'm thinking you charge at home for the most part. Have you used a public EV charger ? What was it like ?

Bill
At least part of the reason for the less than stellar non-Tesla L3 public charger locations is because Tesla literally created L3 public charging from the very outset. They have therefore identified and taken the best locations years ago now, so the rest of the competitors are left trying to find less than stellar locations in comparison. Tesla uptime is also unparalleled due to a combination of superior engineering and superior maintenance practices.
 

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I wonder who is liable for accidents if there isn't a driver ? It seems like Tesla would be liable. It also seems like distracted driving if the software requires a driver to pay attention to the automated driving. There are going to accidents. Plenty of them. Who is at fault when two automated vehicles get into an accident ? Usually the owner of the vehicle is liable regarding accidents but if the vehicle requires no driver doesn't that shift the responsibility to the manufacturer ? What about traffic violations like speeding or failure to stop ? Who would get the ticket ?

Bill
For robotaxi vehicles the manufacturer will be responsible for liability - those vehicles will literally not have steering wheels, pedals, etc. Like Waymo, there will likely be remote drivers that can take over the vehicle on the rare occasions when the vehicle cannot figure out what to do. Liability would obviously be on the company that owns the robotaxi, whether Tesla or a third party fleet company perhaps - though even in that case - since it is the Tesla end-to-end NN that is driving the vehicle - ultimate liability may still rest with Tesla. I would surmise that how auto insurance is handled will change as driverless vehicles gradually become the norm, in addition to how moving violations are handled. It's a new world in some ways, whenever this transition eventually occurs.

For the time being, those of us with FSD - are always liable. We are actually using a system called Full-Self-Driving (Supervised). Emphasis on Supervised. The driver must always be paying attention and is ultimately responsible for ensuring the FSD(S) system behaves safely. So when using FSD(S), while I'm no longer driving the vehicle per se, I'm actively Supervising at all times - the camera inside the vehicle actually watches your eyes and will flash red on the screen and tell you to pay attention to the road if you are distracted and not paying attention - such as using your phone or looking at the screen in the vehicle. The software is quite good at this - and will disable the FSD(S) system if you keep not paying attention. If the system cannot see your eyes for any reason (sunglasses, dark inside, etc.), then it tracks pressure on the steering wheel combined with limited camera observations - and will prompt you to turn the wheel slightly to ensure you are paying attention to the road. At some point, it's likely that an FSD(Unsupervised) version will be released - at which point for personally owned vehicles - I'd assume that liability will still rest with the vehicle owner - but honestly that is still likely TBD.
 

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Musk is supposed to announce the Robo Taxi on October 10, 2024
When the first actual vehicle is to be delivered is still unknown
Musk has not always delivered his announced products as quickly as he would like
I am not criticizing him on this issue
There are a lot of moving parts to the process
Especially the first self driving car
By the time the first car is delivered, many questions will have been answered
When his vision of a self driving car is implemented
It is an understatement to say a major change in how people transport themselves from Point A to Point B will occur
 

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ive never visited a "charger only" location, vs every charger ive ever looked at on the navigation/route map was at an already existing gas station or similar....including every bucees and most large wawas. While id certainly pick a charger only location if it was my only option and I needed a charge...otherwise the convenience of stopping at a gas station for electric gas seems like a no brainer?

the issue as mentioned before with public charging is the staggering cost per kwh compared to charging at home. with the rates ive seen it makes electricity more expensive than gas and as such likely more profitable when installed at a gas station given electricity prices are usually far less volatile than fuel/delivery costs!
 

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Does Twin Falls have very many EV charging points ? Twin Falls is a bit spread out considering the freeway is on the far north end of the city if I remember right.

Bill
There is a Tesla SuperCharger at the Visitor's Center at the bridge & most hotels & car dealers have destination chargers. Some are at shopping centers. We charge at home, so I don't pay much attention to what others do. It must not be an issue as I see EVs far & wide and none of 'em out of electrons parked along the roads.
 

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... I'm thinking you charge at home for the most part. Have you used a public EV charger ? What was it like ?
I charge at home. I bought my Bolt EV as a commuter and "town" car. It is so effective and convenient at that role, I have to FORCE myself to use my ICE vehicle once a week to make sure the battery does not discharge due to the parasitic draw of the car.

The only time I used a public charger was at a Cinemark when we went to a movie and there was an open space for a car at the EV charging station, there are 8, and could use it. It was a Level 2, so for the 2 hours we were at the movie, I received about 16 - 20 miles of free charging.

ETA: When I was working, I went in early and there was a pillar with a 20 amp 110 volt outlet. I would take my Level 1 charger with me and plug in while I was working and charge at 12 amps for 8-9 hours and get about 40 free miles each working day.
 
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easyrider

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ive never visited a "charger only" location, vs every charger ive ever looked at on the navigation/route map was at an already existing gas station or similar....including every bucees and most large wawas. While id certainly pick a charger only location if it was my only option and I needed a charge...otherwise the convenience of stopping at a gas station for electric gas seems like a no brainer?

the issue as mentioned before with public charging is the staggering cost per kwh compared to charging at home. with the rates ive seen it makes electricity more expensive than gas and as such likely more profitable when installed at a gas station given electricity prices are usually far less volatile than fuel/delivery costs!

It seems like there is profit in the gas station convenience store model or the multi-pump cheap gas station model because of the customer turn over. The new Sinclair gas station I get gas at using the Sinclair app has 36 pumps and a small kiosk and is packed. Using the app the gas is about 45 cents less than Costco. Gas pumps can go though many customers compared to a charging station. I think the average time to fill up with gas is less than 5 minutes and the average time to super charge might be 20 to 60 minutes depending on the amount of charge required.

My thought is a super charger facility could be profitable when batteries charge in the 5 minute range. Supposedly, Tesla is tinkering with a graphene aluminum ion battery to replace the lithium batteries which boasts very fast charges. As of now I think the only thing going for adding public chargers are the grants and credits. It has a bad profit margin. When the battery can be charged fast , a charger station near any type of multi-family could be a money maker, imo.

Bill
 

easyrider

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I charge at home. I bought my Bolt EV as a commuter and "town" car. It is so effective and convenient at that role, I have to FORCE myself to use my ICE vehicle once a week to make sure the battery does not discharge due to the parasitic draw of the car.

The only time I used a public charger was at a Cinemark when we went to a movie and there was an open space for a car at the EV charging station, there are 8, and could use it. It was a Level 2, so for the 2 hours we were at the movie, I received about 16 - 20 miles of free charging.

ETA: When I was working, I went in early and there was a pillar with a 20 amp 110 volt outlet. I would take my Level 1 charger with me and plug in while I was working and charge at 12 amps for 8-9 hours and get about 40 free miles each working day.

Does your EV battery loose capacity by not charging to the at least the 80% level ? I think it's considered short charging but I'm not sure it applies to all batteries.

Bill
 

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It seems like there is profit in the gas station convenience store model or the multi-pump cheap gas station model because of the customer turn over. The new Sinclair gas station I get gas at using the Sinclair app has 36 pumps and a small kiosk and is packed. Using the app the gas is about 45 cents less than Costco. Gas pumps can go though many customers compared to a charging station. I think the average time to fill up with gas is less than 5 minutes and the average time to super charge might be 20 to 60 minutes depending on the amount of charge required.

My thought is a super charger facility could be profitable when batteries charge in the 5 minute range. Supposedly, Tesla is tinkering with a graphene aluminum ion battery to replace the lithium batteries which boasts very fast charges. As of now I think the only thing going for adding public chargers are the grants and credits. It has a bad profit margin. When the battery can be charged fast , a charger station near any type of multi-family could be a money maker, imo.

Bill
id actually thought the opposite... with a 10min charge time I went into the store both times to buy items (drink/etc).

i rarely if ever go into the store when filling up with gas.
 

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Does your EV battery loose capacity by not charging to the at least the 80% level ? I think it's considered short charging but I'm not sure it applies to all batteries.

Bill
Bill, our PHEV is over 6 years old and it still charges to exactly the same level it did when new. That amount varies with ambient temp. When it's hotter 'n Hades (our climate is similar to yours in Yakima valley) and in Winter when nighttime temps are well below freezing, the car only charges to around 75-80% of the published range. I think the computer simply reduces the range computation because of the amount of electrons going to cabin climate control.

PS: I should add that climate control is virtually instant. The A/C or heat are blowing within the first half block of turning the car on. AND, if you are plugged in to level 2 (240v), you can select to have the interior and seats temperature pre-set when you get in.
 
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Does your EV battery loose capacity by not charging to the at least the 80% level ? I think it's considered short charging but I'm not sure it applies to all batteries.

Bill
No, between charging at work and charging at home, the battery was between 75% and 100%. That battery bank was swapped out for the current battery pack under the Bolt EV recall 2 years ago.

Now I run it between 70% and 100% and I will take it down to 25% twice a year and charge it back to 100% using 110 VAC at 8A. The battery should be under very little stress. Even though I can charge with a Level 3 (DC), I won't, unless it's an emergency, because:
  • That is what stresses the battery pack
  • It's expensive
 

easyrider

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No, between charging at work and charging at home, the battery was between 75% and 100%. That battery bank was swapped out for the current battery pack under the Bolt EV recall 2 years ago.

Now I run it between 70% and 100% and I will take it down to 25% twice a year and charge it back to 100% using 110 VAC at 8A. The battery should be under very little stress. Even though I can charge with a Level 3 (DC), I won't, unless it's an emergency, because:
  • That is what stresses the battery pack
  • It's expensive

So slow charging is better than fast charging ? Can you actually slow charge your battery to 80% at home overnight ?

Bill
 

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my 110v adds 1.3% per hour, my 240v about 8% per hour. I only use supercharger on long road trips
 

easyrider

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id actually thought the opposite... with a 10min charge time I went into the store both times to buy items (drink/etc).

i rarely if ever go into the store when filling up with gas.

The gas station I use with the 36 pumps doesn't really have much for store items. No alcohol. I think cheap cigarettes and cheap gas is the draw. The average markup on gas is about 15%. A busy gas station pump will pump an average of 80 to 150 gallons an hour. The Sinclair station I go to also fills large commercial vehicles. My guess is they go through about 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of gas per day. My guess is they cash flow over $4000 per day.

Bill
 

easyrider

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my 110v adds 1.3% per hour, my 240v about 8% per hour. I only use supercharger on long road trips

So how long does the slow charge take on your Tesla ?

Bill
 

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Does your EV battery loose capacity by not charging to the at least the 80% level ? I think it's considered short charging but I'm not sure it applies to all batteries.

Bill
The higher you charge any NMC pack percentage wise over time - the more degradation occurs over time. This is why all EVs that use NMC/NCM/NCA packs recommend no more than 80% charge for daily driving. We set our daily driving at 70% for daily driving and my wife typically consumes between 10-30% of the pack energy daily dependent upon her work commute and errands day to day. Only LFP batteries can persistently be charged to 100% without any accelerated degradation over time.
 

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So how long does the slow charge take on your Tesla ?

Bill
It doesn't matter whether it's a Tesla or Lightning, or a Bolt, plugged into level 1, 110v household current will add about 4 miles of range for every hour it's plugged in. So 'how long' it will take depends wholly on how many kW it needs to transfer. Level 2 (240v) adds about 20 miles of range per hour of charging.
 

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So how long does the slow charge take on your Tesla ?

Bill
that's what i just told you. 1.3% per hour on a 110v, 8% on 240v. The average person drives 40 miles per day which is about 15% so that takes 12 hours on the 110v and two hours on my 240.
 

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So slow charging is better than fast charging ? Can you actually slow charge your battery to 80% at home overnight ?

Bill
That's what all home chargers do by design. For our L2 Tesla Wall Charger - it charges at 11.5kwh - or 48amps at 240 volts - or roughly 44 miles per hour. I could set it to a lower amperage if I wanted to, but there's no reason to do so as the lower you set the amperage - generally the less efficient the charging session is. We typically see 95-99% efficiency at 48 amps - since less power has to be used to heat the pack itself (which is what occurs more frequently when charging at lower amperages). Below is our charge session from overnight last night as one example.

1727453388435.png
 

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So slow charging is better than fast charging ? Can you actually slow charge your battery to 80% at home overnight ?

Bill
Studies show different results. There was a major study done that actually shows that over a three year period - there was no more battery degradation between packs that used primarily L1/L2 chargers vs packs that used L3 public chargers. That said, there aren't any decent studies that show results over a longer lifetime such as 5-10 years for example. Generally, the more heat that is generated within the pack and within the cells, the more degradation occurs over the long term. Every BEV has an onboard charger that negotiates all L1/L2 charging sessions. L3 public chargers bypass the onboard charger entirely and interact directly and only with the high voltage system since there's way too much amperage for any onboard charger to handle L3 public chargers - generally somewhere between 50-350kw at 150-500amps dependent upon the BEV voltage architecture (most BEVs today use a 400v HV architecture, though some BEVs have 800v HV architectures and this is the future).
 

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The gas station I use with the 36 pumps doesn't really have much for store items. No alcohol. I think cheap cigarettes and cheap gas is the draw. The average markup on gas is about 15%. A busy gas station pump will pump an average of 80 to 150 gallons an hour. The Sinclair station I go to also fills large commercial vehicles. My guess is they go through about 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of gas per day. My guess is they cash flow over $4000 per day.

Bill
I dont believe thats the case at all. the actual margin on gas is ridiculously low for the store owner (measured in pennies per gallon). the bulk of their profit comes from shopping in the store. Id bet they make more on a large cup of soda than they do on a 10 gallon fillup.

The profit on electricity per kwh is far greater!
 

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length of time charing to 80% depends on where you start lol.

if im at 75% i can charge to 80 in a very short time!

going from 10% to 80% would obviously take a good bit longer and even that depends on the size of the battery and charger used.


however ive gone from 20% to 80% at a commercial charger and it took approximately 20 minutes.
 
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