You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[HitchHiker71]

Holding up extremely well. No issues. Of course top speed is 25 mph. Does great cruising the neighborhood with my grandkids. Oh, I have to say they like the golf cart more than I do…

What’s the range? I spoke to two electric golf cart owners when we were down at Towers on the Grove in North Myrtle Beach a few months ago while getting ice cream on Main Street. IIRC the range was about 25 miles on a single charge? More than enough for their needs. They were skeptical about buying an electric golf cart but after having done so they said they will never go back. Sounds similar to EV owners….


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[dagger1]

What’s the range? I spoke to two electric golf cart owners when we were down at Towers on the Grove in North Myrtle Beach a few months ago while getting ice cream on Main Street. IIRC the range was about 25 miles on a single charge? More than enough for their needs. They were skeptical about buying an electric golf cart but after having done so they said they will never go back. Sounds similar to EV owners….


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Range depends on speed, weight, etc. We have a 6 seater with a 200 Amp Lithium Battery. Range with two passengers running 15-20 mph should be 60+ miles. Loaded with 5 grandkids maybe 45-50 miles….

 

[easyrider]

Range depends on speed, weight, etc. We have a 6 seater with a 200 Amp Lithium Battery. Range with two passengers running 15-20 mph should be 60+ miles. Loaded with 5 grandkids maybe 45-50 miles….

My buddy uses their golf cart to launch his ski boat. It's a 4 seater with club rack on the back.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

I decided to check on the profitability of an EV charging station thinking there really isn't any real charging type service facilities in our area. It appears that these are losers regarding profitability. The largest company doing this is called EV go and they are not doing so good.

I had thought of using a gas station model using super chargers instead of gas pumps. The problem is the length of time to charge and the chargers short life span. Since super chargers are not a very profitable business, I doubt anyone will want to own this type of business.

Bill

 

[tombanjo]

Stand alone chargers are not really a "thing". Places like whole foods and WaWa incorporate them in their parking lots to drive business (WaWa is big in the convenience store area)

Hotels are "destination" chargers, once again, they bring in business for EV users traveling have a place to plug in while staying.

A lot of the costs can be rolled into other infrastructure costs, especially for new construction.

The tie in adds the value. Stand alone has nowhere for a captive audience to spend money for 30 minutes

 

[HitchHiker71]

I decided to check on the profitability of an EV charging station thinking there really isn't any real charging type service facilities in our area. It appears that these are losers regarding profitability. The largest company doing this is called EV go and they are not doing so good.

I had thought of using a gas station model using super chargers instead of gas pumps. The problem is the length of time to charge and the chargers short life span. Since super chargers are not a very profitable business, I doubt anyone will want to own this type of business.

Bill

Gas stations aren’t very profitable either, the margins are extremely slim and largely controlled by the big oil companies. I know a few folks who own local gas stations and I've had this discussion with them. I also have a friend of a friend who is trying to purchase a local gas station. They make the vast majority of their monies via the convenience stores attached to the stations with high margin items like coffee, drinks, snacks, cigarettes, etc. Chargers work the same way. Where I live and in the mid-Atlantic area in general, we've got two big chains that have struck deals with Tesla for public chargers - WaWa and Royal Farms. We're also starting to see Sheetz in our area as they move further north, though I've not seen as many Sheetz with chargers as I have Wawa's and Royal Farms at least in our general area. I did notice more Sheetz had Tesla chargers when we were driving down to Myrtle Beach early summer timeframe, in fact one of the chargers it routed us to was a Sheetz on the way back home from Myrtle area somewhere in the northern NC area.

To date the only company that has managed to find profitability with L3 public chargers is Tesla last time I checked, though admittedly I haven't looked closely at this item since late last year.


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[easyrider]

Gas stations aren’t very profitable either, the margins are extremely slim and largely controlled by the big oil companies. I know a few folks who own local gas stations and ah r had this discussion with them. They make the vast majority of their monies via the convenience stores attached to the stations with high margin items like coffee, drinks, snacks, cigarettes, etc. Chargers work the same way.


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Have you ever been to a charging station with a convenience store ? Is there such a thing ? From what I read the super charging centers are mostly chargers and maybe a vending machine.

In our area there , the advertised super chargers are located at hotels near the freeway. None are in what I would call a night time safe area geographically.

Part of the reason EV GO isn't able to be profitable is the chargers they use in their facilities have a high non-functioning rate. Anywhere for 10% to 60% non-working for various reasons like no employee on site. No employees and a credit is what attracted me to this. Washington is giving out grants to install public super chargers in under served areas. I was thinking I could add a few super chargers to an existing business or use a vacant property to add a dozen super chargers. It's funny where business ideas originate. The problem is even if I can do this for nothing, it has to be profitable.

Bill

This is what the IRS says.

Businesses​

If your business installs qualified vehicle refueling and recharging property, including electric vehicle charging equipment, it may be eligible for a credit of up to $100,000 for each qualified item of property.

This is the Dept of Transportation says.

Starting on Jan. 1, 2023, the value of this credit is 6% of the cost of property subject to depreciation, with a maximum credit of $100,000 for each single item of property.

This is what the State of Washington says.

The Electric Vehicle Charging Program reduces the costs associated with installing Level 2 and direct current fast chargers for public use. Grants for installing EV chargers provide up to 100% off eligible costs.

 

[davidvel]

Have you ever been to a charging station with a convenience store ? Is there such a thing ? From what I read the super charging centers are mostly chargers and maybe a vending machine.

In our area there , the advertised super chargers are located at hotels near the freeway. None are in what I would call a night time safe area geographically.

Part of the reason EV GO isn't able to be profitable is the chargers they use in their facilities have a high non-functioning rate. Anywhere for 10% to 60% non-working for various reasons like no employee on site. No employees and a credit is what attracted me to this. Washington is giving out grants to install public super chargers in under served areas. I was thinking I could add a few super chargers to an existing business or use a vacant property to add a dozen super chargers. It's funny where business ideas originate. The problem is even if I can do this for nothing, it has to be profitable.

Bill

This is what the IRS says.

Businesses​

If your business installs qualified vehicle refueling and recharging property, including electric vehicle charging equipment, it may be eligible for a credit of up to $100,000 for each qualified item of property.

This is the Dept of Transportation says.

Starting on Jan. 1, 2023, the value of this credit is 6% of the cost of property subject to depreciation, with a maximum credit of $100,000 for each single item of property.

This is what the State of Washington says.

The Electric Vehicle Charging Program reduces the costs associated with installing Level 2 and direct current fast chargers for public use. Grants for installing EV chargers provide up to 100% off eligible costs.

If you live in an area where it is not safe to sit in your car at night, it is probably not the best market for EVs or chargers. Maybe subsidized transportation.

 

[easyrider]

If you live in an area where it is not safe to sit in your car at night, it is probably not the best market for EVs or chargers. Maybe subsidized transportation.

Where I live is very safe.

Where the EV chargers are located in our city isn't as safe, imo, especially at night, especially for a female, as they are located off the freeway near where the homeless hang out. Considering the time it takes to charge and that there would be no employees watching it is ripe for shenanigans.

Where I could install an EV facility would be safe and convenient but a mile from the freeway or near the airport. Both locations would be safe for everyone at night. It seems like it would be an easy business to operate but the profit margin is a concern. Most companies doing this aren't profitable or they have a low profit margin.

Bill

 

[letsgobobby]

The Tesla supercharger network has basically nothing in common with other EV chargers. That's why everyone is moving to the Tesla standard.

It wouldn't surprise me in the long run if Tesla made nothing on its cars, and a lot of money leasing access to its Superchargers, its autonomous driving software, and its Robotaxi infrastructure. Kind of like Amazon makes nothing on books, and everything on AWS; or Costco makes nothing on goods, and almost everything on its membership fee.

I'm not an investor in Tesla. I'm 100% an indexer. But I love my model 3.

 

[easyrider]

The Tesla supercharger network has basically nothing in common with other EV chargers. That's why everyone is moving to the Tesla standard.

It wouldn't surprise me in the long run if Tesla made nothing on its cars, and a lot of money leasing access to its Superchargers, its autonomous driving software, and its Robotaxi infrastructure. Kind of like Amazon makes nothing on books, and everything on AWS; or Costco makes nothing on goods, and almost everything on its membership fee.

I'm not an investor in Tesla. I'm 100% an indexer. But I love my model 3.

I'm thinking of Tesla super chargers. The requirements by Tesla aren't that bad. The costs to build are by grant ,credits and partnership so there really isn't much of a monetary commitment off the get go. There just isn't enough profit to be viable is what I currently think. There are taxes, insurance and maintenance. Tesla requires a restroom and wifi at the very least on the facility. So that would be more maintenance. There is a bit more to it than what I thought.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

Have you ever been to a charging station with a convenience store ? Is there such a thing ? From what I read the super charging centers are mostly chargers and maybe a vending machine.

Buc-ee's and Mercedes-Benz partner to create new electric vehicle charging network​

Buc-ee's and Mercedes-Benz partner to create new electric vehicle charging network

Mercedes-Benz struck a deal with Buc-ees to install EV charging stations at locations throughout the country before the end of the year.

www.statesman.com

 

[tombanjo]

Convenience store chain Wawa marked two milestones in its electric vehicle journey by announcing Aug. 31 that it had reached its 150th store to offer electric vehicle charging and the launch its first battery-electric truck in partnership with Penske Logistics.

The convenience retailer, with locations in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Florida and Washington, D.C., continues to increase the number of stores hosting EV charging stations to increase charging access and convenience to drivers of electric vehicles, according to a company release. Wawa began hosting EV charging at its first store in 2017 and now offers Tesla Superchargers and others with both CCS and CHAdeMO connectors through providers such as EVgo, ChargePoint, and Electrify America. Wawa has hosted more than six million charging sessions across our network of EV charging locations since 2017. Wawa stores host more Tesla chargers than any retail chain in North America

 

[pedro47]

The winner of EV will be the large electricity companies.

 

[letsgobobby]

I'm thinking of Tesla super chargers. The requirements by Tesla aren't that bad. The costs to build are by grant ,credits and partnership so there really isn't much of a monetary commitment off the get go. There just isn't enough profit to be viable is what I currently think. There are taxes, insurance and maintenance. Tesla requires a restroom and wifi at the very least on the facility. So that would be more maintenance. There is a bit more to it than what I thought.

Bill

i've only used three superchargers but two of them had no restroom to speak of. i mean they tend to be in areas with lots of stores and shared parking so there's a bathroom somewhere, but not obvious where. the last one i used was in the parking lot of an old restaurant that had converted to a church, which wasn't open to the public . but it was walking distance to a ton of fast food.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Have you ever been to a charging station with a convenience store ? Is there such a thing ? From what I read the super charging centers are mostly chargers and maybe a vending machine.

In our area there , the advertised super chargers are located at hotels near the freeway. None are in what I would call a night time safe area geographically.

Part of the reason EV GO isn't able to be profitable is the chargers they use in their facilities have a high non-functioning rate. Anywhere for 10% to 60% non-working for various reasons like no employee on site. No employees and a credit is what attracted me to this. Washington is giving out grants to install public super chargers in under served areas. I was thinking I could add a few super chargers to an existing business or use a vacant property to add a dozen super chargers. It's funny where business ideas originate. The problem is even if I can do this for nothing, it has to be profitable.

Bill

I'd surmise it's different state by state and region by region, but almost all of the Tesla SC stations in my area are in the same parking lot as either Wawa or Royal Farms. This is part of the deal that Wawa and Royal Farms struck with Tesla - they get first dibs on SC locations - so a Tesla SC station will only be located at somewhere other than one of these two competing gas station/convenience store locations if the local stations turn down the request for a SC station in that particular area basically. I literally have 10 SC stations within 10 miles of my home, only one of which is not located at a Wawa or Royal Farms "super" station - meaning it's a gas station, a large convenience store that offers a full menu of breakfast/lunch/dinner items (mostly sandwiches and salads really), and a Tesla SC station. The one station that isn't is located at the travel center for I95 - which also has several restaurants and a huge gas station for both residential and commercial vehicles. Even when we travel, the SC stations we have used have almost all been located either adjacent to a restaurant, in a shopping center, or at a Wawa or Royal Farms super station. When we head up to the Poconos, there's a newer Tesla SC station at a newer "super" Sheetz location here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/k4R6TwnBJmt99wVU7

Overall, since the average charging session typically lasts 15-20 minutes - that's enough time for most folks to consider an impulse purchase at these convenient locations, which is of course the entire reason for marrying SC stations up with convenience stores in the first place.

Most hotels that have chargers install L2 chargers, not Tesla L3 SC stations, at least here in the mid-Atlantic area. You cannot sit at a Tesla SC station for more than five minutes beyond the charging session conclusion without getting charged idle fees - these stations aren't meant for overnight charging which is what most hotels need. They are meant for high volume usage for 15-30 minutes at most.

All Tesla locations, including all SC stations, can be found here: https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=54.705302713993035,-28.83623461875001,20.313268099833724,-122.57158618125&zoom=5&filters=store,service,supercharger,destination charger,bodyshop,party,self serve demo drive,nacs,delivery centers

 

[HitchHiker71]

The Tesla supercharger network has basically nothing in common with other EV chargers. That's why everyone is moving to the Tesla standard.

NACS is a superior standard and is easiest to use and most reliable. Tesla engineering is typically the best out there - simplicity of design and durability is unmatched - particularly for the SC network.

It wouldn't surprise me in the long run if Tesla made nothing on its cars, and a lot of money leasing access to its Superchargers, its autonomous driving software, and its Robotaxi infrastructure. Kind of like Amazon makes nothing on books, and everything on AWS; or Costco makes nothing on goods, and almost everything on its membership fee.

I'm not an investor in Tesla. I'm 100% an indexer. But I love my model 3.

Once Robotaxi takes hold, Tesla will likely pull back on selling human driven vehicles - and prioritize manufacturing their self driving robotaxi vehicles for their own robotaxi fleet. The profitability of turning any one vehicle into a self driving robotaxi literally provides 5-10x the revenue stream when compared to simply selling the vehicle itself - it is a game changer. Tesla could literally give away the vehicles for free and still make at least 5x the cost of the vehicle over it's lifetime from self-driven taxi services - this is the goal - Musk has repeatedly stated this is the goal long term. Tesla is an AI/robotics company, not a car company, contrary to popular opinion. Tesla vehicles are robots on wheels. The Optimus robot will revolutionize our world once it comes to market, likely in ways we cannot even imagine today.

Yesterday I ran three errands in our MY LR using FSD. It literally drove the entire time with zero interventions - mostly local roads and through two developments with no lines on the roads - did it near perfectly. It cannot park in driveways just yet - but that's coming too. It exits our garage and driveway without intervention as well, but cannot yet do the same in reverse (entering our driveway and garage - but this too is coming). We were at our local grocery store yesterday and I used the smart summon feature to have the car come to us from the busy parking lot. People walking by the car were literally staring at it commenting "is there no one in that car? WTH?" The robot is driving itself unattended. This feature is called Actually Smart Summon. It works from as far as 100 meters away in parking lots today - eventually it will work from anywhere. This tech is much closer to wide adoption than many realize today. Last weekend we drove 120 miles down to Alexandria from our home. FSD drove almost the entire way - probably 118/120 miles. Impressive.

 

[Passepartout]

The winner of EV will be the large electricity companies.

Sure. Just like the winners in auto building has been oil companies, and the reason Gillette has given away razors for decades to get users to buy blades.
But you can't argue the logic of having your own EV charger at home, and either feeding it with solar power, or buying that electricity at low off-peak rates from your power provider.

 

[tombanjo]

 

[pedro47]

A Local electricians will have to install the charger, that will equates to more installation jobs for electricians and the resident will use more wattage from their local electricity

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I'd surmise it's different state by state and region by region, but almost all of the Tesla SC stations in my area are in the same parking lot as either Wawa and Royal Farms. This is part of the deal that Wawa and Royal Farms struck with Tesla - they get first dibs on SC locations - so a Tesla SC station will only be located at somewhere other than one of these two competing gas station/convenience store locations if the local stations turn down the request for a SC station in that particular area basically. I literally have 10 SC stations within 10 miles of my home, only one of which is not located at a Wawa or Royal Farms "super" station - meaning it's a gas station, a large convenience store that offers a full menu of breakfast/lunch/dinner items (mostly sandwiches and salads really), and a Tesla SC station. The one station that isn't is located at the travel center for I95 - which also has several restaurants and a huge gas station for both residential and commercial vehicles. Even when we travel, the SC stations we have used have almost all been located either adjacent to a restaurant, in a shopping center, or at a Wawa or Royal Farms super station. When we head up to the Poconos, there's a newer Tesla SC station at a newer "super" Sheetz location here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/k4R6TwnBJmt99wVU7

Overall, since the average charging session typically lasts 15-20 minutes - that's enough time for most folks to consider an impulse purchase at these convenient locations, which is of course the entire reason for marrying SC stations up with convenience stores in the first place.

Most hotels that have chargers install L2 chargers, not Tesla L3 SC stations, at least here in the mid-Atlantic area. You cannot sit at a Tesla SC station for more than five minutes beyond the charging session conclusion without getting charged idle fees - these stations aren't meant for overnight charging which is what most hotels need. They are meant for high volume usage for 15-30 minutes at most.

All Tesla locations, including all SC stations, can be found here: https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=54.705302713993035,-28.83623461875001,20.313268099833724,-122.57158618125&zoom=5&filters=store,service,supercharger,destination charger,bodyshop,party,self serve demo drive,nacs,delivery centers

Here's the North Dallas Tesla chargers

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=33.25948006367673%2C-96.0454241993164%2C32.73715992632722%2C-97.35211060068359&zoom=11&filters=store%2Cservice%2Csupercharger%2Cdestination%20charger%2Cbodyshop%2Cparty%2Cself%20serve%20demo%20drive%2Cnacs%2Cdelivery%20centers

If you're in a "hot spot", not so bad, but in the suburb "boonies", not so good.

 

[Passepartout]

A Local electricians will have to install the charger, that will equates to more installation jobs for electricians and the resident will use more wattage from their local electricity

Mostly true- for now. But as time goes on, homes will be built with 240v already installed in garages, just like houses have 240v wired into laundry rooms now. Businesses will have charging spaces for clients and employees. Apartments will have charging facilities with app controlled EV chargers to attract long-term, stable residents.

Yes, young people will train for well-paying jobs as electricians and technicians to work on solar, and wind and who-knows-what-all. These jobs will be filled by people who don't necessarily need a 4-year degree. I don't see this as a 'bad' thing.

 

[dagger1]

I decided to check on the profitability of an EV charging station thinking there really isn't any real charging type service facilities in our area. It appears that these are losers regarding profitability. The largest company doing this is called EV go and they are not doing so good.

I had thought of using a gas station model using super chargers instead of gas pumps. The problem is the length of time to charge and the chargers short life span. Since super chargers are not a very profitable business, I doubt anyone will want to own this type of business.

Bill

When we bought our Cadillac ELR, they gave us a free charger plus free installation as well as the massive discounts and the Feseral tax credit. I don’t know if these discounts, tax breaks and perks are still being offered…

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

And if I want to visit my sister in San Antonio Texas

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=29.67126644170605%2C-98.17368560204818%2C29.400339413163795%2C-98.82702880273177&zoom=12&filters=store%2Cservice%2Csupercharger%2Cdestination%20charger%2Cbodyshop%2Cparty%2Cself%20serve%20demo%20drive%2Cnacs%2Cdelivery%20centers&search=San%20Antonio%2C%20TX%2C%20USA

 

[easyrider]

Buc-ee's and Mercedes-Benz partner to create new electric vehicle charging network​

Buc-ee's and Mercedes-Benz partner to create new electric vehicle charging network

Mercedes-Benz struck a deal with Buc-ees to install EV charging stations at locations throughout the country before the end of the year.

www.statesman.com

From what I see on the internet, many of the super charger locations are at hotels , gas stations, restaurants and shopping centers. The EV Go facilities , which are different from the Tesla super chargers , look like they are on there own lot. I'm thinking you charge at home for the most part. Have you used a public EV charger ? What was it like ?

Bill