You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[youppi]

It doesn't matter whether it's a Tesla or Lightning, or a Bolt, plugged into level 1, 110v household current will add about 4 miles of range for every hour it's plugged in. So 'how long' it will take depends wholly on how many kW it needs to transfer. Level 2 (240v) adds about 20 miles of range per hour of charging.

4 miles per charging hour on level 1 is not true for all EV.
A Ford Lightning consumes much more kWh/mile than a Tesla Model Y.
The same level 1 charger gives the same amount of kW to both and thus charging both for an hour will give the same kWh but not the same driving distance of 4 miles because the Lightning uses more energy to drive the same distance.
Also, a level 1 charger is any charger at 110V(120V) and thus a level 1 charger at 8A or 12A or higher Amp will not give the same kW per hour and thus not the same driving distance of 4 miles.

 

[HitchHiker71]

length of time charing to 80% depends on where you start lol.

if im at 75% i can charge to 80 in a very short time!

going from 10% to 80% would obviously take a good bit longer and even that depends on the size of the battery and charger used.


however ive gone from 20% to 80% at a commercial charger and it took approximately 20 minutes.

Here’s a real world example of a recent L3 Tesla supercharger session on our MY LR from a couple weeks ago, when on our way home from Wyndham Shawnee in the Poconos, at a Tesla SC station in Tammany (north of Easton, PA) at a local Sheetz. There’s also a hotel and a fast food joint adjacent to this SC location.

We charged from 10-70% (which was about 15% more than we actually needed) in 21 minutes. This was with preconditioning. So we added 60% to the pack in 20 minutes. Going from 20% up to 80% would have taken the same amount of time. I personally would have left after only 15 minutes but my wife likes to arrive home with around 20% charge left so we stayed an extra five minutes for her sanity.

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[Passepartout]

4 miles per charging hour on level 1 is not true for all EV.
A Ford Lightning consumes much more kWh/mile than a Tesla Model Y.
The same level 1 charger gives the same amount of kW to both and thus charging both for an hour will give the same kWh but not the same driving distance of 4 miles because the Lightning uses more energy to drive the same distance.
Also, a level 1 charger is any charger at 110V(120V) and thus a level 1 charger at 8A or 12A or higher Amp will not give the same kW per hour and thus not the same driving distance of 4 miles.

True. Those numbers are approximate. Like asking 'How much gasoline does it take to drive a car from point A to Point B? A Fiat 100 will clearly use less than a Hummer.

I'm pretty sure that Bill (who posed the question) has a grasp of the difference, but is curious about the economies of EVs. As any non-user is. Imo, a perfectly normal question.

 

[emeryjre]

Here’s a real world example of a recent L3 Tesla supercharger session on our MY LR from a couple weeks ago, when on our way home from Wyndham Shawnee in the Poconos, at a Tesla SC station in Tammany (north of Easton, PA) at a local Sheet. There’s also a hotel and a fast food joint adjacent to this SC location.

We charged from 10-70% (which was about 15% more than we actually needed) in 21 minutes. This was with preconditioning. So we added 60% to the pack in 20 minutes. Going from 20% up to 80% would have taken the same amount of time. I personally would have left after only 15 minutes but my wife likes to arrive home with around 20% charge left so we stayed an extra five minutes for her sanity.

View attachment 99985


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Quick question
Under the COST section of the screen
There are two items
One item is a number for ELECTRIC of $20.55
The other items is a number for FUEL of $25.97
What do these items mean
Are they added together to give you the total cost of recharging?
Thanks in Advance

 

[HitchHiker71]

Quick question
Under the COST section of the screen
There are two items
One item is a number for ELECTRIC of $20.55
The other items is a number for FUEL of $25.97
What do these items mean
Are they added together to give you the total cost of recharging?
Thanks in Advance

The electric cost is the actual cost of that Tesla SC charging session. The fuel cost is the comparative cost of adding the equivalent amount of fuel for a ICE vehicle that you set up in the app settings. Our current settings are:

So basically even using a Tesla SC station at an elevated cost, we still saved ~20% on fuel costs comparatively.

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[HitchHiker71]

length of time charing to 80% depends on where you start lol.

if im at 75% i can charge to 80 in a very short time!

going from 10% to 80% would obviously take a good bit longer and even that depends on the size of the battery and charger used.


however ive gone from 20% to 80% at a commercial charger and it took approximately 20 minutes.

Yup - here's an example of a 8kwh L2 charging session when we were parked at OTA (Wyndham Old Town Alexandria) last weekend - charging for free in their underground garage L2 charging stations - took 6.5 hours to charge from 24% up to 90%. FOR FREE (to me at least).

 

[TUGBrian]

4 miles per charging hour on level 1 is not true for all EV.
A Ford Lightning consumes much more kWh/mile than a Tesla Model Y.
The same level 1 charger gives the same amount of kW to both and thus charging both for an hour will give the same kWh but not the same driving distance of 4 miles because the Lightning uses more energy to drive the same distance.
Also, a level 1 charger is any charger at 110V(120V) and thus a level 1 charger at 8A or 12A or higher Amp will not give the same kW per hour and thus not the same driving distance of 4 miles.

I think for most all vehicles (my lightning included) the estimate of "under 5 miles of range per hour" is accurate for just about all level 1 chargers.

i personally get around 3...but only because thats the average mile per kw i get in the truck...and it adds a smidge over 1kw per hour when i plug into 110 circuit with a 12amp charger.

you are absolutely correct though as most non EV owners simply assume all chargers and batteries are equal!

me saying it took me 20minutes to charge to 80% in a vehicle with a 130kw battery might seem quite long. however that same charge would only take 10 minutes in a vehicle with a 65kw battery.

 

[TUGBrian]

Yup - here's an example of a 8kwh L2 charging session when we were parked at OTA (Wyndham Old Town Alexandria) last weekend - charging for free in their underground garage L2 charging stations - took 6.5 hours to charge from 24% up to 90%. FOR FREE (to me at least).

View attachment 99990

ha, this is a neat comparison. i snapped this photo once when i stopped at a local charging station (200kwh) and put 45kw in.

ford gives you 250kw of free charging for buying the truck...so thats why it shows $0

(stopped at 73% because that was just where it was when i came back to the truck after getting an icee and using the restroom!)

 

[TUGBrian]

also interesting to note that the charging speed slows WAY down (by design apparently) above 85 or 90%....something to do with the battery management system ensuring no risk of overcharge or similar, so when you see videos of people claiming it takes "way longer than I thought" to charge to 100% at a fast charging station the chances are it was at 80% very quickly and they spent the next 30min to an hour to get to 100%

flip side of that of course is you can always fill your gas tank to 100% any time without delay! though I also know plenty of people who simply put in a fixed amount of money into the tank vs filling up so i guess it all evens out in the end.

 

[HitchHiker71]

also interesting to note that the charging speed slows WAY down (by design apparently) above 85 or 90%....something to do with the battery management system ensuring no risk of overcharge or similar, so when you see videos of people claiming it takes "way longer than I thought" to charge to 100% at a fast charging station the chances are it was at 80% very quickly and they spent the next 30min to an hour to get to 100%

flip side of that of course is you can always fill your gas tank to 100% any time without delay! though I also know plenty of people who simply put in a fixed amount of money into the tank vs filling up so i guess it all evens out in the end.

For anyone interested, think of it this way. You've got a 1000 car empty parking lot, and a line of 1000 cars in line all waiting to enter that empty parking lot. The first 75-80% of the available spaces are taken up fairly quickly, but the remaining 20% of open spaces are randomly spread out, and therefore the line of cars entering the parking lot starts to slow down quite a bit (and eventually grinds to halt really), since the remaining open spots are harder to find, because people are slowly driving around searching for a remaining open parking spot. The fuller the parking lot becomes, the longer it takes to find a remaining open spot.

This is the same concept with battery charging as it goes beyond 80% State of Charge (SOC) up toward 100% SOC. The higher the SOC, the slower the ROC (Rate of Charge). This is why BEV owners learn to maintain a lower SOC when on road trips. I'll typically charge to 60-70% and set my car to run down to 10% before seeking out a charging station, that way I'm typically only charging for 15-20 minute increments while on the road trip. Arriving at the charging location at a low SOC means you're going to charge as quickly as is possible, at the highest ROC possible, because the parking lot is almost empty. This is of course only applicable on long road trips, for daily driving, none of this matters, since you're charging overnight at home.

 

[youppi]

I think for most all vehicles (my lightning included) the estimate of "under 5 miles of range per hour" is accurate for just about all level 1 chargers.

i personally get around 3...but only because thats the average mile per kw i get in the truck...and it adds a smidge over 1kw per hour when i plug into 110 circuit with a 12amp charger.

you are absolutely correct though as most non EV owners simply assume all chargers and batteries are equal!

me saying it took me 20minutes to charge to 80% in a vehicle with a 130kw battery might seem quite long. however that same charge would only take 10 minutes in a vehicle with a 65kw battery.

and people don't know that the L3 maximum charging power can be different between 2 EV cars and the on-board charger for L1/L2 can be different too.

For example a Hyundai Kona EV 2023 vs a Chevy Bolt EUV 2023 where both have a battery of ~65kWh:
The Hyundai Kona EV 2023 has an on board charger of 7.2 kW (max 32 A at 240V) and a maximum L3 charging power of 77 kW.
The Chevy Bolt EUV 2023 has an on board charger of 11.5 kW (max 48 A at 240V) and a maximum L3 charging power of 50 kW.
So the Chevy can charge faster on L2 but slower on L3 than the Hyundai.

Also the charging curve is different from one EV to another EV car.
The maximum L3 charging power supported by a car is normally not supported for a long period of time.

There are many things that distinguish EV cars between them but people look only to the maximum range they can drive with them.

 

[davidvel]

The gas station I use with the 36 pumps doesn't really have much for store items. No alcohol. I think cheap cigarettes and cheap gas is the draw. The average markup on gas is about 15%. A busy gas station pump will pump an average of 80 to 150 gallons an hour. The Sinclair station I go to also fills large commercial vehicles. My guess is they go through about 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of gas per day. My guess is they cash flow over $4000 per day.

Bill

Do you have a source/cite for your 15% claim? This article states about 15 cents, not percent. Most articles I found show profits are far less than 5%.

 

[davidvel]

I dont believe thats the case at all. the actual margin on gas is ridiculously low for the store owner (measured in pennies per gallon). the bulk of their profit comes from shopping in the store. Id bet they make more on a large cup of soda than they do on a 10 gallon fillup.

The profit on electricity per kwh is far greater!

But Bill thinks it is true so it must be a fact.

 

[Ken555]

But Bill thinks it is true so it must be a fact.

He read it on the interwebs.

 

[davidvel]

He read it on the interwebs.

Actually I doubt he did. He heard it in his thoughts though.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Do you have a source/cite for your 15% claim? This article states about 15 cents, not percent. Most articles I found show profits are far less than 5%.

The average gross profit margin is 15-20% - but that’s not net margin which is only 2-3%. ChatGPT to the rescue below - note the convenience store bullet point that accounts for at least 70% of net profits.

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[davidvel]

The average gross profit margin is 15-20% - but that’s not net margin which is only 2-3%. ChatGPT to the rescue below - note the convenience store bullet point that accounts for at least 70% of net profits.

View attachment 100002


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My post was replying to BilI. I have found the google AI labs to be right about 50% of the time. It is not much better than a clickbait article. Even if we accept this as a source/cite, nothing you posted shows that the gross margins for fuel are 15-20%. The 18% margin is for gas stations, not fuel.

 

[HitchHiker71]

My post was replying to BilI. I have found the google AI labs to be right about 50% of the time. It is not much better than a clickbait article. Even if we accept this as a source/cite, nothing you posted shows that the gross margins for fuel are 15-20%. The 18% margin is for gas stations, not fuel.

Agreed, but it’s a good aggregator of all data available on Google which is what the AI engine is basing its data on - an aggregate of all available data. Specific to actual per gallon profits - the screenshot I posted stated that per gallon profit is typically 3–7 cents per gallon. If we assume an average price of $3.50 per gallon, that calculates to a net profit margin of 1-2% if my math is right.


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[Carolinian]

Here is another EV issue - guardrails. Crash tests show that guardrails designed for traditional cars will not stop the much heavier EV's from crashing through.

https://www.motor1.com/news/707029/guardrails-testing-heavy-electric-vehicles/

 

[TUGBrian]

Here is another EV issue - guardrails. Crash tests show that guardrails designed for traditional cars will not stop the much heavier EV's from crashing through.

https://www.motor1.com/news/707029/guardrails-testing-heavy-electric-vehicles/

im not terribly surprised a barricade rated for "up to 5000lbs" failed when tested on vehicles that weigh more than 5000lbs?

id also bet there are far more ICE vehicles on the road that weigh more than 5000lbs than evs?

 

[davidvel]

Here is another EV issue - guardrails. Crash tests show that guardrails designed for traditional cars will not stop the much heavier EV's from crashing through.

https://www.motor1.com/news/707029/guardrails-testing-heavy-electric-vehicles/

Another issue? Didn't we already do this at posts 758-780?

 

[easyrider]

I dont believe thats the case at all. the actual margin on gas is ridiculously low for the store owner (measured in pennies per gallon). the bulk of their profit comes from shopping in the store. Id bet they make more on a large cup of soda than they do on a 10 gallon fillup.

The profit on electricity per kwh is far greater!

I looked into it and the EV filling station facilities are all big money pits. The only thing that keeps these going are government subsidies. They are prone to vandalism, crime and are kind of high maintenance as they wear out quickly.

My first thought is that they would be a great quasi-passive income stream once established but that isn't the case at all.

The point I was trying to make about gas versus electricity is that a gas pump can go through many cars per hour and an EV charger might go though a few per hour, which means the pump by itself would make more money than a charger. I also found out , no citation for this, EV chargers often have a short life span because they are in the weather, get vandalized and occasionally break away from their connection needing a re-boot.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Do you have a source/cite for your 15% claim? This article states about 15 cents, not percent. Most articles I found show profits are far less than 5%.

If you had understood my post I was guessing . I actually said my guess multiple times.

Bill

 

[Carolinian]

Another hurricane, and more incidents of flooded EV's spontaneously combusinting in people's garages:

https://www.wfla.com/news/pinellas-county/watch-tesla-flooded-from-hurricane-helene-catches-fire-inside-pinellas-garage/

 

[TUGBrian]

I looked into it and

I mean, not for nothing but this entire thread is full of examples like this with the results of your research being wildly inaccurate or easily debunked.

if there was no money in it, noone would be rolling these out at local mom and pop stations.