You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[Ken555]

and we are back to your opinion with absolutely no basis in fact. I think everyone gets it at this point that you are not an EV fan, however nearly every point you have tried to make to support your opinion has been debunked.

And yet he keeps posting the same erroneous info over and over again. We need a TUG fact-check thumbs up or down on posts to alert others.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It really depends on the vehicle , imo. If you start out with a decent ice vehicle you would be miles ahead of any EV, imo. It's common for a decent ice vehicles to run over 200,000 miles with no real problems. It's common for some ice vehicles to run 300,000 to 500,000 miles with no major problems. An example is a Toyota Camry or 4 Runner.

After all is said to support ev's, the fact is they aren't as good as a similar ice vehicle regarding reliability, repair, longevity and resale which are the issues many people are concerned about.

Bill

Let's take a different approach, let's ask ChatGPT Auto this question: Will an EV vehicle last longer than an ICE vehicle on average?

Answer:

Electric vehicles (EVs) have the potential to last longer than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, but several factors influence this comparison:

### 1. **Simplicity of EV Design**
- **EVs**: Electric vehicles have fewer moving parts (e.g., no complex engine, transmission, or exhaust system). This makes them mechanically simpler and reduces wear and tear. Major components like the electric motor and battery are more reliable over time compared to the complex machinery of an ICE vehicle.
- **ICE vehicles**: Internal combustion engines have hundreds of moving parts that wear out over time, leading to more frequent repairs and maintenance.

### 2. **Battery Life**
- **EVs**: The lifespan of an EV largely depends on its battery. Modern EV batteries are designed to last 10-15 years or more, and many manufacturers offer warranties for 8 years or 100,000+ miles. However, over time, battery capacity will degrade, reducing range but not necessarily making the car unusable.
- **ICE vehicles**: ICE vehicles rely on engine performance, which can degrade over time, though with proper maintenance, they can last several hundred thousand miles. Engines and transmissions may need major repairs or replacement after 150,000-200,000 miles.

### 3. **Maintenance**
- **EVs**: Since EVs don’t require oil changes, timing belt replacements, or exhaust system repairs, they generally have lower maintenance costs and fewer breakdowns.
- **ICE vehicles**: ICE vehicles require more regular maintenance and have higher repair costs over time, as the engine and related systems wear out.

### 4. **Mileage and Usage**
- **EVs**: EVs tend to excel in urban driving and start-stop conditions, where regenerative braking increases efficiency and reduces wear on the vehicle.
- **ICE vehicles**: ICE vehicles, depending on their build quality and how they’re driven, can still last long, especially if mostly driven on highways.

### 5. **Longevity of Key Components**
- **EVs**: The battery is the critical component for EV longevity. While batteries degrade over time, they don’t typically fail entirely. By the time significant degradation occurs, battery replacement costs might decrease, making it feasible to extend the vehicle's life.
- **ICE vehicles**: Engines and transmissions wear out and may require major repairs or replacements, which can be costly.

### Conclusion:
**EVs** have the potential to outlast **ICE vehicles** due to their simpler mechanics and lower maintenance requirements. However, battery degradation is a key factor to consider. In general, an EV’s total lifespan could surpass that of an ICE vehicle, especially as battery technology continues to improve.

 

[easyrider]

and we are back to your opinion with absolutely no basis in fact. I think everyone gets it at this point that you are not an EV fan, however nearly every point you have tried to make to support your opinion has been debunked.

It's not that I'm not a fan of ev's. It's more that I'm a fan of reliable products. Ev's aren't what I consider a reliable vehicle. Most of the top ten list of unreliable vehicles from JD Power are ev's.

Ev's have too many things going against them at this point in time. The reported issues that some EV owners have with their vehicles are real issues. If your Lightning battery fails it's covered under warranty. Did you know it can take months to a year to have the battery repaired by a dealer ? How about buying tires for a Tesla every 6 months ? Tesla's weigh so much that the wheels are cambered in to the point of causing excessive tire wear and blow outs.

Here's a couple videos showing the Lightning non-functioning battery wait and Tesla tire wear pattern. You won't find people spouting off on you tube about how unreliable their Toyota's, Lexus, Honda's or Acura's are. You will find many videos of ev owners swearing they will never buy another.

Excuse me for believing them instead of you. There are enough EV owners reporting problems. Someday, they might figure it out but I kind of doubt it. The concerns these people raise should be a concern for anyone who doesn't want to waste their money or time on an EV.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Here are some more Tesla owners that are pissed off. This really makes a person want to buy a Tesla, lol. The Ford Lightning has been in and out of production because it has had massive failures with batteries and other electronic parts. These reliable sources say it all.

Bill

1.4K Tesla Reviews | tesla.com @ PissedConsumer

Tesla has 1439 reviews (average rating 2.3). Consumers say: Alignment done by tesla and wont admit fault, Tesla doing more, Many Issues

tesla.pissedconsumer.com

Tesla has 2.3 star rating based on 730 customer reviews. Consumers are mostly dissatisfied.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-cancels-many-f-150-lightning-orders-for-quality-pause/#:~:text=The%20Lightning%20has%20been%20recalled,balky%20tire%20pressure%20monitoring%20systems.

Meanwhile, Ford fights persistent quality issues. The automaker had more recalls than any other builder last year (though to be fair, Tesla had the most per car sold). Ford is on pace to repeat the feat this year, with 44 so far to Chrysler’s 38.

The Lightning has been recalled at least three times in its short life, though none of the recalls applied to every Lightning built. Ford has called EV trucks back over battery fires, inoperative lights, and balky tire pressure monitoring systems.

 

[davidvel]

.

It was on CBS National News. The Morning Show and Evening News.

I don't know about that. But the link Dr. Q provided expressly stated that the "highway guardrails that [] not designed to withstand the extra force" of heavier EV vehicles. You claimed (below) that they were. Also, the article states that the guardrails also are no designed to stop other heavy ICE vehicles.

Today on the News they showed Crash Tests of EV's hitting Guard Rails and Cement Barriers. These are designed to stop or redirect ICE Vehicles. The EV's went right through the Guard Rails like a hot knife through butter. They destroyed the Cement Barriers moved them up to 10 feet and sent chunks flying.

 

[davidvel]

It's not that I'm not a fan of ev's. It's more that I'm a fan of reliable products. Ev's aren't what I consider a reliable vehicle. Most of the top ten list of unreliable vehicles from JD Power are ev's.

Ev's have too many things going against them at this point in time. The reported issues that some EV owners have with their vehicles are real issues. If your Lightning battery fails it's covered under warranty. Did you know it can take months to a year to have the battery repaired by a dealer ? How about buying tires for a Tesla every 6 months ? Tesla's weigh so much that the wheels are cambered in to the point of causing excessive tire wear and blow outs.

Here's a couple videos showing the Lightning non-functioning battery wait and Tesla tire wear pattern. You won't find people spouting off on you tube about how unreliable their Toyota's, Lexus, Honda's or Acura's are. You will find many videos of ev owners swearing they will never buy another.

Excuse me for believing them instead of you. There are enough EV owners reporting problems. Someday, they might figure it out but I kind of doubt it. The concerns these people raise should be a concern for anyone who doesn't want to waste their money or time on an EV.

Bill

Weird, I don't recall you posting so many comments about other non-EV unreliable vehicles. Nice try though.

 

[easyrider]

Weird, I don't recall you posting so many comments about other non-EV unreliable vehicles. Nice try though.

I think you are on to something David. To me, most vehicles are un-reliable. Some more so than others. Ev's more so than the some, lol.

Do you like EV's ?

Bill

 

[geist1223]

.

I don't know about that. But the link Dr. Q provided expressly stated that the "highway guardrails that [] not designed to withstand the extra force" of heavier EV vehicles. You claimed (below) that they were. Also, the article states that the guardrails also are no designed to stop other heavy ICE vehicles.

You are misreading what I wrote.

 

[davidvel]

I think you are on to something David. To me, most vehicles are un-reliable. Some more so than others. Ev's more so than the some, lol.

Do you like EV's ?

Bill

Exactly, you prove my point. I don't have an affinity either way.

 

[davidvel]

You are misreading what I wrote.

I posted what you wrote: "These are designed to stop or redirect ICE Vehicles. The EV's went right through the Guard Rails like a hot knife through butter." Nothing in the article or other sources I saw said the guard rails are designed to stop such heavy vehicles, ICE or EV. Maybe you have such a source.

 

[geist1223]

The NBC News Report. Also during the TV News Program they showed ICE Vehicles hitting Guard Rails and being redirected. Then similar size and shaped EV's going right through the Guard Rails.

 

[davidvel]

The NBC News Report. Also during the TV News Program they showed ICE Vehicles hitting Guard Rails and being redirected. Then similar size and shaped EV's going right through the Guard Rails.

Sorry I can't watch what you saw without a link. Shape/size is subjective. There are many ICE vehicles that are magnitudes heavier than any EV. Can you provide a link that shows the ICE vehicles in the video were the same weight as the EVs? It is physics, not sure everyone took the class (AP).

 

[TUGBrian]

Ev's have too many things going against them at this point in time. The reported issues that some EV owners have with their vehicles are real issues. If your Lightning battery fails it's covered under warranty. Did you know it can take months to a year to have the battery repaired by a dealer ?

So any vehicle that can be sidelined for months at a dealer waiting on a repair is unreliable? I think you are going to have to expand your list if thats the metric you base reliability on!

How about buying tires for a Tesla every 6 months ? Tesla's weigh so much that the wheels are cambered in to the point of causing excessive tire wear and blow outs.

odd, my lightning weights far more than a tesla and ive had it more than 6months without any sign of tire wear. maybe I got a bad one!

You won't find people spouting off on you tube about how unreliable their Toyota's, Lexus, Honda's or Acura's are. You will find many videos of ev owners swearing they will never buy another.

I can find MILLIONS of complaint videos about just about any make/model of ICE vehicle especially when a new one comes out.... if you are unable to do so you are actively not looking.

Im not claiming that hondas arent reliable, they are certainly known for it...but pretending they never have issues is just absurd.

ps...toyota and honda also make EVs ....ergo they must be reliable! =D

 

[easyrider]

So any vehicle that can be sidelined for months at a dealer waiting on a repair is unreliable? I think you are going to have to expand your list if thats the metric you base reliability on!

Several months to over a year seems excessive to repair a Lightning Battery to me. To make matters worse the Lightning was fairly new. The only vehicle I know of that had problems that sometimes took months to repair are the old Cadillac's with the Northstar V8 but those problems rarely happened in the first few years.

odd, my lightning weights far more than a tesla and ive had it more than 6months without any sign of tire wear. maybe I got a bad one!

Your Lightning is a body on frame build so it can handle the extra weight with no problems. The Tesla's suspension requires the wheels to be cambered to handle the battery weight which causes the inner tire to wear. Tesla's also are requires the tires to be rotated every 2500 miles which seems like an extra pita.

I can find MILLIONS of complaint videos about just about any make/model of ICE vehicle especially when a new one comes out.... if you are unable to do so you are actively not looking.

Im not claiming that hondas arent reliable, they are certainly known for it...but pretending they never have issues is just absurd.

ps...toyota and honda also make EVs ....ergo they must be reliable! =D

I agree that there are many pos vehicles that get a lot of complaints. I wouldn't want one of any of those. The Toyota BZ4X rates at 64 making it very unreliable. The Honda Prologue reliability score hasn't been announced yet but I'm certain it's bad because it's made by GM. So far, the only reliable type of ev is a Japanese hybrid, imo. BTW, the F150 hybrid scored a 19 on reliability so those will be someones problem.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

Several months to over a year seems excessive to repair a Lightning Battery to me. To make matters worse the Lightning was fairly new. The only vehicle I know of that had problems that sometimes took months to repair are the old Cadillac's with the Northstar V8 but those problems rarely happened in the first few years.



Your Lightning is a body on frame build so it can handle the extra weight with no problems. The Tesla's suspension requires the wheels to be cambered to handle the battery weight which causes the inner tire to wear. Tesla's also are requires the tires to be rotated every 2500 miles which seems like an extra pita.



I agree that there are many pos vehicles that get a lot of complaints. I wouldn't want one of any of those. The Toyota BZ4X rates at 64 making it very unreliable. The Honda Prologue reliability score hasn't been announced yet but I'm certain it's bad because it's made by GM. So far, the only reliable type of ev is a Japanese hybrid, imo. BTW, the F150 hybrid scored a 19 on reliability so those will be someones problem.

Bill

ive owned a bmw that spent months in the shop too....it wasnt an ev (and they eventually bought it back). Did ruin my view of bmws but im not naive enough to believe that result is indicative of the average bmw, much less the average vehicle ice or otherwise.

you of all people should know people post complaints exponentially more than people post good experiences. for every complaint there are hundreds of perfectly happy owners who wont ever experience said issue. ill take those odds!

 

[tombanjo]

Telsa is not on the list of unreliable cars
Rivian is the only fully electric

The Dishonorable List:

Model	Reliability Score (1 to 100)
Jeep Wrangler	27
Jeep Grand Cherokee	26
VW Jetta	25
Nissan Frontier	23
Jeep Grand Cherokee L	23
Rivian R1T	22
Volvo XC60	21
Ford F-150 Hybrid	19
Volkwagen Taos	18
Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid	14

 

[HitchHiker71]

It's not that I'm not a fan of ev's. It's more that I'm a fan of reliable products. Ev's aren't what I consider a reliable vehicle. Most of the top ten list of unreliable vehicles from JD Power are ev's.

Ev's have too many things going against them at this point in time. The reported issues that some EV owners have with their vehicles are real issues. If your Lightning battery fails it's covered under warranty. Did you know it can take months to a year to have the battery repaired by a dealer ? How about buying tires for a Tesla every 6 months ? Tesla's weigh so much that the wheels are cambered in to the point of causing excessive tire wear and blow outs.

Here's a couple videos showing the Lightning non-functioning battery wait and Tesla tire wear pattern. You won't find people spouting off on you tube about how unreliable their Toyota's, Lexus, Honda's or Acura's are. You will find many videos of ev owners swearing they will never buy another.

Excuse me for believing them instead of you. There are enough EV owners reporting problems. Someday, they might figure it out but I kind of doubt it. The concerns these people raise should be a concern for anyone who doesn't want to waste their money or time on an EV.

Bill

I love how you use anecdotal data points to try to justify your positions. I could easily find nightmare stories about every brand on the face of the earth, what's your point really?

The guy you posted about races his MS Plaid - he actually conflicts himself right in that video saying he's on his way to a race and had to swap out a tire/wheel at the race, then later says he's never raced his MS Plaid, he also said he's using stock wheels/tires, yet anyone who knows anything about Tesla knows those wheels/tires are oversized and far from stock. That said, the 2021 MS Plaids - the very first year of that model - are known to have production issues - particularly with the suspension geometries, steering yokes, etc., that are mentioned in that video. He was denied warranty coverage by Tesla for his reported issues because he raced the vehicle on a regular basis - which Tesla proved via camera data from his vehicle when he lied about why the car was running through tires. Anyone who races vehicles knows you eat through tires constantly. I used to race SCCA myself and I'd not expect any summer only Z rated tires to last much beyond 5-6k miles. Nice try but this guy was thoroughly debunked on the TMC forums for these reasons despite his deceptive claims. Lastly, keep in mind the MS Plaid is a hypercar - it has over 1000HP from the factory - it's a niche car in other words - and all niche hypercars have problems - just ask anyone who owns a Lambo or Ferrari or McLaren - they are expensive to maintain. Not saying the points aren't valid especially for the first model year, but the issues he addresses in that video were all resolved in the 2022 and 2023 model years, and contrary to his claims otherwise, if the warranty wasn't voided due to racing abuse, Tesla would have updated the suspension on his 2021 vehicle.

That said, perhaps the best indicator of whether brands are or are not reliable, is repeat buyers, as you yourself said with regard to Honda/Acura, Lexus/Toyota, etc. People don't buy unreliable cars and people are not loyal to brands that treat them badly. Tesla enjoys some of the highest brand loyalty in the automotive sector, as is clearly evidenced below:

This data is all especially compelling when we consider the below advertising data - meaning unlike every other manufacture that spends billions or hundreds of millions on advertising to convince buyers to consider their products or stay with their products - Tesla spends almost zero - yet still enjoys some of the best brand loyalty and repeat buyers in the business.

So despite your purely anecdotal examples - which can be found for any/all manufacturers, the data tells a different story, sorry to say.

Oh, BTW, we've got 26.5k miles on our 2023 MY LR - original tires - about 50% wear to date - or trending for right around the tire treadwear warranty of 45k miles before replacement. Haven't rotated the tires at all either - no need since the vehicle has 50/50 weight distribution and the tires are wearing evenly (so much for your claim that Tesla owners have to rotate tires every 2500 miles in other words - this is where real world experience comes in as opposed to talking points from the internet for a hypercar niche product). That's horrible right? Most people that experience accelerated tire wear with their EVs do so because they are hammering the throttle constantly (which admittedly is addictive), and with 100% torque available at all times, the tires take the brunt of the abuse and wear is greatly accelerated. As any mechanic will tell you, if you beat on your car, it'll beat on you (via higher maintenance and repair expenses) - and EVs are no exception really.

 

[easyrider]

you of all people should know people post complaints exponentially more than people post good experiences. for every complaint there are hundreds of perfectly happy owners who wont ever experience said issue. ill take those odds!

I think most Toyota and other Japanese brand car owners actually say how reliable their cars are and how happy they were with their purchase. You hear from people even on this forum about having a Camry or Highlander that lasted forever or is still in use after 20+ years.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Telsa is not on the list of unreliable cars
Rivian is the only fully electric

The Dishonorable List:

Model	Reliability Score (1 to 100)
Jeep Wrangler	27
Jeep Grand Cherokee	26
VW Jetta	25
Nissan Frontier	23
Jeep Grand Cherokee L	23
Rivian R1T	22
Volvo XC60	21
Ford F-150 Hybrid	19
Volkwagen Taos	18
Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid	14

I'm using JD Power as a source because they have been at this for decades. My Jeep Wrangler is very modified with many upgrades. Everything that ever broke down on the Jeep is my fault. The power train has been very reliable and I abuse it like a toy which is what it is to me.

Bill

According to J.D. Power, some of the least reliable cars in 2024 include:

• 2024 Volvo XC90: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 70/100
• 2024 Tesla Model Y: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 70/100
• 2024 Mazda CX-50: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 70/100
• 2024 Ford Mustang Mach-E: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 69/100
• 2024 Toyota bZ4X: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 64/100
• 2024 Polestar 2: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 64/100
• 2024 Toyota Supra: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 63/100
• 2024 Audi Q4 e-tron: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 63/100
• 2024 Cadillac Lyriq: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 60/100
• 2024 Volkswagen ID.4: Has a J.D. Power reliability score of 54/100
  
  

J.D. Power's ratings are based on survey feedback from verified car owners over the first three months and three years of ownership

 

[easyrider]

what's your point really?

My point is, that at my wife's and my age, I require a reliable vehicle. I don't care about speed so much but I do care about costs, comfort, utility and reliability. If and when I sell a vehicle, I would like the depreciation to not be excessive.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

I think most Toyota and other Japanese brand car owners actually say how reliable their cars are and how happy they were with their purchase. You hear from people even on this forum about having a Camry or Highlander that lasted forever or is still in use after 20+ years.

Bill

So do the vast majority of Tesla owners - as is clearly evidenced by the very high brand loyalty and repeat buyer statistics - right up there with Toyota/Honda/Lexus/Acura. As @TUGBrian said, for every one owner that complains, there are many owners who never say anything - we're all familiar with this with timeshares really, there are a few noisy power-owners who complain constantly, but the vast majority of timeshare owners are fairly happy with their timeshare ownership really, especially those who purchased resale that hang out here on TUG.

 

[HitchHiker71]

My point is, that at my wife's and my age, I require a reliable vehicle. I don't care about speed so much but I do care about costs, comfort, utility and reliability. If and when I sell a vehicle, I would like the depreciation to not be excessive.

Bill

Sigh - and as I've said repeatedly, at least for Tesla vehicles, is almost entirely related to MSRP price cuts. In fact, the last third of the Youtube video you yourself linked to - pointed out this exact issue - he bought his MS Plaid for $140-150k and now he can only get $60k on trade-in, when he owes $100k, because a brand new same model MS Plaid only costs $99k fully optioned, with a base of $89k, which is precisely why his depreciation accelerated. He says exactly this in the video you provided.

Unfortunately as Tesla's cost of manufacturing came down significantly over the past four years for all models, the MSRP was decreased to allow for a wider audience to afford the vehicles. Tesla has also now indicated that manufacturing costs aren't going to come down much more - they have found just about every cost saving measure already and implemented it across their manufacturing lines - so prices are stabilizing over the past year. Context is important on topics like this.

BTW, IIRC @TUGBrian has owned (or previously owned) a Nissan EV for many years now - made great use of it for years on the cheap. Not sure if he still owns it, but the F150L wasn't his first EV, he's a knowledgeable firsthand EV owner who speaks from real world experience here on TUG.

I don't think anyone cares about whether you want to stay with ICE vehicles for your own good reasons, but repeating the same old tired internet/FUD talking points, which as Brian said have been rather thoroughly debunked repeatedly, is going to elicit further debunking most likely. Up to you whether you want to continue doing so of course, but don't expect those of us with real world experience to not push back when needed.

 

[easyrider]

So do the vast majority of Tesla owners

Your statement is in direct conflict with the reviews at Pissed Consumer and Tesla owners groups. There may be brand loyalty in a certain techy demographic but it isn't true that most Tesla owners want another. Besides the lack of locations to service Tesla because their products are considered proprietary, Tesla is known to have used deceptive marketing, unfulfilled orders and general fraud. Tesla is also under investigation for their self driving claims.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

thoroughly debunked repeatedly

Name one EV issue that I brought up that has been de-dunked. I get that because you own a Tesla you aren't willing to say what a pita they can be compared to a regular vehicle. No, de-bunked isn't the right word. A difference of opinion is more like it.

Something Tesla owners that bought their EV for environmental reasons probably haven't considered is that even though there isn't any tail pipe emissions, there are particulates released with the tires.

Bill

Study says EV tire particle pollution worse than exhausts, California slammed for 'trying to conceal' it

EVs’ dirty little secret exposed or a lot of hot air?

finance.yahoo.com

Study says EV tire particle pollution worse than exhausts, California slammed for 'trying to conceal' it​

 

[Ken555]

There may be brand loyalty in a certain techy demographic but it isn't true that most Tesla owners want another.

Keep digging that hole.

I have friends and clients who are now on their third Tesla (they lease the cars) and love them. One tried to find a different car this year and tested a Rivian and others and came away dissatisfied so simply ordered another MS. Each of these individuals have told me, unprompted, that their Tesla is hands down the best car they have ever owned.

I’ve found that people who tend to repeat the same debunked “facts” over and over are being disingenuous and other times are simply trolls who have nothing better to do. One of the main symptoms of being a troll is to refuse to acknowledge facts.