You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[easyrider]

the model x qualifies for that! as does the f150 lightning oddly enough!

is also a 4k tax deduction for used EVs under 25k making a model s even more attractive!

pro tip, some 2015-2017 model s's come with free supercharging for life which could REALLY rack up some savings for the right owner!

I've never thought about that. Thanks for bringing it up. The only problem for me is reselling an EV. I know that the regular suv's sell fairly easy even with 100,000 miles. I'm not so sure how easy it is to sell a bev with 100,000 miles. For me, the biggest problem is not knowing how to work on a bev.

Bill

 

[geist1223]

Today on the News they showed Crash Tests of EV's hitting Guard Rails and Cement Barriers. These are designed to stop or redirect ICE Vehicles. The EV's went right through the Guard Rails like a hot knife through butter. They destroyed the Cement Barriers moved them up to 10 feet and sent chunks flying.

 

[easyrider]

Today on the News they showed Crash Tests of EV's hitting Guard Rails and Cement Barriers. These are designed to stop or redirect ICE Vehicles. The EV's went right through the Guard Rails like a hot knife through butter. They destroyed the Cement Barriers moved them up to 10 feet and sent chunks flying.

They must be equipped with high tech airbags, lol.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

I've never thought about that. Thanks for bringing it up. The only problem for me is reselling an EV. I know that the regular suv's sell fairly easy even with 100,000 miles. I'm not so sure how easy it is to sell a bev with 100,000 miles. For me, the biggest problem is not knowing how to work on a bev.

Bill

I consider myself fairly handy when working on just about any vehicle and I know absolutely nothing about working on an EV (or at least the components of the vehicle that are ev specific). that said, for just about every major issue ive seen (for used teslas anyway) there is a youtube video explaining whats wrong and how to fix it! for certain things though id likely just factor in that expected repair cost taking it to a certified dealer to have it completed especially if it required some silly expensive specific tool or similar. all the weird/troublesome stuff (for instance the door handles on a model S are notoriously prone to failure)...all have about a million videos and websites for diy fixers to tackle!

I honestly believe this is the very reason resale prices are so terrible, everyone fears something catastrophic happening that will turn the car into a brick and they "cant fix it". I really dont see the chance of that any more significant than a regular vehicle just grenading itself the moment you drive off the lot in it etc. Sure you COULD get that one in a million chance of being super unlucky, but that applies to any used vehicle these days. Overall the maint for something like a model s is a FRACTION of what youd have to do on any other regular car.

look at it like a timeshare. someone likely paid nearly 100,000 or more for a 2017 tesla S p100d and now might be lucky to get 30k for it? isnt all that much more value to lose in terms of a used car assuming its still actually running once you decide to sell it!

 

[TUGBrian]

Today on the News they showed Crash Tests of EV's hitting Guard Rails and Cement Barriers. These are designed to stop or redirect ICE Vehicles. The EV's went right through the Guard Rails like a hot knife through butter. They destroyed the Cement Barriers moved them up to 10 feet and sent chunks flying.

think it would be advisable to avoid hitting any barrier (concrete or otherwise) at those speeds in any vehicle...

EVs arent any heavier than many large trucks on the road (or any cargo vehicle)....im not sure why a guardrail would consider an EV as some sort of kryptonite compared to a fully loaded tractor trailer or UPS truck?

 

[easyrider]

everyone fears something catastrophic happening that will turn the car into a brick and they "cant fix it".

This is true. Many ev's make the lists of unreliable vehicles by JD Power. Tesla model y is rated a 70 which isn't that good. EV's are most of the top unreliable vehicles on the list. The most reliable vehicles are ice and are probably Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Acura. These do have resale value even at high mileage. Even American suv's & trucks resale with high miles. I'm thinking that ev's don't resales very well.

I have tinkered a bit with battery packs. It's nothing I can fix easy. It's took weeks or longer to get parts. In contrast, NAPA has pretty much everything to repair an ice by the next day.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

Today on the News they showed Crash Tests of EV's hitting Guard Rails and Cement Barriers. These are designed to stop or redirect ICE Vehicles. The EV's went right through the Guard Rails like a hot knife through butter. They destroyed the Cement Barriers moved them up to 10 feet and sent chunks flying.

Today. . . . link, source?

 

[DrQ]

Today. . . . link, source?

Google is your friend:

Crash tests indicate nation's guardrail system can't handle heavy electric vehicles

Preliminary tests by a University of Nebraska road safety research facility and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers point to concerns that the nation’s roadside guardrails are no match for new heavy electric vehicles.

apnews.com

Last fall, engineers at Nebraska’s Midwest Roadside Safety Facility watched as an electric-powered pickup truck hurtled toward a guardrail installed on the facility’s testing ground on the edge of the local municipal airport. The nearly 4-ton (3.6 metric ton) 2022 Rivian R1T tore through the metal guardrail and hardly slowed until hitting a concrete barrier yards away on the other side.​

...​

The facility has seen this problem before. In the 1990s, as more people began buying light-weight pickups and sport utility vehicles, the Midwest Roadside Safety Facility found that the then-50-year-old guardrail system was proving inadequate to handle their extra weight. So, it went about redesigning guardrails to adapt.​

 

[geist1223]

Today. . . . link, source?

It was on CBS National News. The Morning Show and Evening News.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This is true. Many ev's make the lists of unreliable vehicles by JD Power. Tesla model y is rated a 70 which isn't that good. EV's are most of the top unreliable vehicles on the list. The most reliable vehicles are ice and are probably Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Acura. These do have resale value even at high mileage. Even American suv's & trucks resale with high miles. I'm thinking that ev's don't resales very well.

I have tinkered a bit with battery packs. It's nothing I can fix easy. It's took weeks or longer to get parts. In contrast, NAPA has pretty much everything to repair an ice by the next day.

Bill

The primary reason that most Tesla's suffer for resale value isn't because of anything consumer related - it's because Tesla has persistently lowered the MSRP on their new vehicles over the past four years as manufacturing costs have come down due to economies of scale, gigacasting, and other efficiency improvements on the manufacturing lines over time. MSP's used to sell for $140-150k - now you can buy a MS Plaid for $90k brand new - so resale values have come down in line with major drops in MSRP over time. Same thing with all of the Tesla models. Our MY was $58k plus TTL in March 2023, now that exact same (better really since improvements have been made) MY LR can be purchased for $48k plus TTL.

IMHO most other BEVs aren't selling as well because they aren't real SDVs, they are simply ICE vehicles converted to BEV - like the F150L for example. Most people who buy BEVs don't really want "the same old thing" that's been built for the past 30 years, they want something nextgen - they want a SDV - and Tesla is the only company out there building SDVs outside of a few brands from China right now. That's why from a market share standpoint, there's Tesla, and then there's everyone else, at least here in the US, still to this day. Over time I expect this to change, as other manufacturers actually figure out how to build SDVs, but this issue is why the big three keep pushing back there timelines, it's not nearly as easy as they thought, and it takes a lot of modernization efforts to be able to become a software company primarily, as opposed to a hardware company. Just my two cents of course.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Google is your friend:

Crash tests indicate nation's guardrail system can't handle heavy electric vehicles

Preliminary tests by a University of Nebraska road safety research facility and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers point to concerns that the nation’s roadside guardrails are no match for new heavy electric vehicles.

apnews.com

Last fall, engineers at Nebraska’s Midwest Roadside Safety Facility watched as an electric-powered pickup truck hurtled toward a guardrail installed on the facility’s testing ground on the edge of the local municipal airport. The nearly 4-ton (3.6 metric ton) 2022 Rivian R1T tore through the metal guardrail and hardly slowed until hitting a concrete barrier yards away on the other side.​

...​

The facility has seen this problem before. In the 1990s, as more people began buying light-weight pickups and sport utility vehicles, the Midwest Roadside Safety Facility found that the then-50-year-old guardrail system was proving inadequate to handle their extra weight. So, it went about redesigning guardrails to adapt.​

It's not just the weight, it's just as much the low center of gravity since the battery pack sits underneath the passenger compartment and joins the front and back subassemblies together. The average guardrail height is about 27-32 inches - so for larger ICE vehicles like pickups/SUVs - their center of gravity is pretty high especially compared to a BEV like a Rivian pickup. I'd imagine this will alter the construction of guardrails moving forward - much like what happened in the 1990s when SUVs and pickups became very popular and guardrail design had to be altered as your excerpt indicates.

Perhaps the other point worth mentioning is that as FSD takes root, the cars simply won't drive through barriers like this. Humans make mistakes, whereas machines don't make the same kinds of mistakes. Accident avoidance takes on new meaning when the SDV has ten eyes watching all around the vehicle 100% of the time and never gets tired or distracted. Here's a couple video links of what I mean:

x.com

x.com

x.com

x.com

 

[easyrider]

The primary reason that most Tesla's suffer for resale value isn't because of anything consumer related - it's because Tesla has persistently lowered the MSRP on their new vehicles over the past four years as manufacturing costs have come down due to economies of scale, gigacasting, and other efficiency improvements on the manufacturing lines over time. MSP's used to sell for $140-150k - now you can buy a MS Plaid for $90k brand new - so resale values have come down in line with major drops in MSRP over time. Same thing with all of the Tesla models. Our MY was $58k plus TTL in March 2023, now that exact same (better really since improvements have been made) MY LR can be purchased for $48k plus TTL.

IMHO most other BEVs aren't selling as well because they aren't real SDVs, they are simply ICE vehicles converted to BEV - like the F150L for example. Most people who buy BEVs don't really want "the same old thing" that's been built for the past 30 years, they want something nextgen - they want a SDV - and Tesla is the only company out there building SDVs outside of a few brands from China right now. That's why from a market share standpoint, there's Tesla, and then there's everyone else, at least here in the US, still to this day. Over time I expect this to change, as other manufacturers actually figure out how to build SDVs, but this issue is why the big three keep pushing back there timelines, it's not nearly as easy as they thought, and it takes a lot of modernization efforts to be able to become a software company primarily, as opposed to a hardware company. Just my two cents of course.

What is happening in Washington is the older out of warranty Tesla's cost too much to repair , that is, if you can find anyplace willing to do the repair. Tesla's are pretty much a disposable EV once the battery pack is bad. This is why the resale value sucks, imo.

The best way to own Tesla's are to get rid of them a year before the warranty expires, imo. Having one of these without warranty could end up being a huge cost. The battery has an eight year warranty or 100,000 mile warranty but only applies to batteries that degrade below 70% and is replaced with a battery that is over the 70% degradation level meaning the replacement battery could be close to failing because it isn't necessarily new. I know it's rare for the battery to have a problem during the warranty period but it does happen. It's a pretty common problem after the warranty expires. Not many owners are going to invest $20,000 on a $30,000 car, imo.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

What is happening in Washington is the older out of warranty Tesla's cost too much to repair , that is, if you can find anyplace willing to do the repair. Tesla's are pretty much a disposable EV once the battery pack is bad. This is why the resale value sucks, imo.

We are talking about cars that are 10 years old now. These older Tesla vehicles are directly impacted by the fact that the MSRP's on MS's compared to when these models were sold - are literally 30-50+% lower now. Why would anyone pay 50k for a 10 year old MS that sold for well over 100k back in 2012-2014 when you can buy a brand new better MS for 72k today. So current MSRP values definitely negatively impact the older MS and MX models especially since they were very pricey models that sold for well over $100k (up to $150k easily) back in those days.

The best way to own Tesla's are to get rid of them a year before the warranty expires, imo. Having one of these without warranty could end up being a huge cost. The battery has an eight year warranty or 100,000 mile warranty but only applies to batteries that degrade below 70% and is replaced with a battery that is over the 70% degradation level meaning the replacement battery could be close to failing because it isn't necessarily new. I know it's rare for the battery to have a problem during the warranty period but it does happen. It's a pretty common problem after the warranty expires. Not many owners are going to invest $20,000 on a $30,000 car, imo.

Bill

I disagree -this is no different than having an unexpected ICE failure that costs $15-20k to replace these days. It is comparatively a very rare occurrence. Here's a 2014 Tesla MS with over 285k miles on it still using the original battery pack (just as one example) - where the owner just had to replace the electric motor recently. These older model MS's actually had more issues with the electric motors than the battery packs from what I have learned over the years (just go out onto the TMC MS forums):

I do agree it's not worth investing $20k to replace a pack on a vehicle that's only worth $20k, but the same argument could be made when replacing any ICE on a 10 year old ICE vehicle. The newer Tesla models are manufactured such that it's much easier to swap the packs whenever needed. On the M3/MY models - it costs about 9-12k to replace their packs in comparison (and this cost is actually dropping each year) and the vast majority of that cost is the pack price (i.e. there's not a ton of labor when compared to the older Tesla MS/MX vehicles. I've actually gotten quotes to have a ICE replaced - back in 2018 when my 2012 RAM 1500 ICE failed - it would have cost me $8-10k to have the ICE replaced (and this was six years ago). Luckily I had an extended warranty that covered the repair (not replacement), but it never ran the same again and I traded it in not long after the repair. Point being, this same risk for a high repair bill exists for any type of older out of warranty vehicle really. Now you might say - I can swap an engine myself since I'm a good shade tree mechanic - but that's an outlier case by definition as 99% of drivers don't have the skills nor the equipment and would have to pay to have a ICE replaced. Same goes for battery packs.

 

[TUGBrian]

I have tinkered a bit with battery packs. It's nothing I can fix easy. It's took weeks or longer to get parts. In contrast, NAPA has pretty much everything to repair an ice by the next day.

Bill

yea thats just not the case at all anymore.... even dealers struggle to source common replacement parts these days with weeks/months worth of backlogs unless you want to pay an ultra premium from an online vendor etc.

 

[TUGBrian]

What is happening in Washington is the older out of warranty Tesla's cost too much to repair , that is, if you can find anyplace willing to do the repair. Tesla's are pretty much a disposable EV once the battery pack is bad. This is why the resale value sucks, imo.

The best way to own Tesla's are to get rid of them a year before the warranty expires, imo. Having one of these without warranty could end up being a huge cost. The battery has an eight year warranty or 100,000 mile warranty but only applies to batteries that degrade below 70% and is replaced with a battery that is over the 70% degradation level meaning the replacement battery could be close to failing because it isn't necessarily new. I know it's rare for the battery to have a problem during the warranty period but it does happen. It's a pretty common problem after the warranty expires. Not many owners are going to invest $20,000 on a $30,000 car, imo.

Bill

while valid, the issue is that just because the battery warranty is done at 100k miles doesnt translate to the battery somehow "failing" at 101k miles. id be the % of them lasting 2x that long exceed regular engines....plus its super easy to calculate the remaining battery life left.

70% also isnt some magic number that indicates the battery is going to die tomorrow, heck it could be at 25% and itll still run and drive just fine....you just wouldnt be able to go very far! the size of the pack also comes into play a 70% health 100kw battery (say in a p100d) would net you way more range than a 90% 60kw battery!

I looked at dozens of used model S's....most under 50k miles but all out of warranty because the 2016/2017 (free supercharging) model year are all coming up. i dont think a single one of them had a battery pack lower than 90% degradation? could a used one suddenly stop working the moment you buy it? sure! So could the transmission on a newer SUV. Whats the cost on replacing a modern 10 speed auto transmission? 10,000 bucks PLUS installation?

Marketplace is full of FAR more 100k mile luxury ICE suvs all mentioning "transmission shifts hard or no 5th gear other such indicative issues of a very expensive repair coming due soon". regular EV doesnt even have a transmission to fail! =)



its all relative and just underscores the fallacy of painting everything with a sensational headline while ignoring important details.

 

[Ken555]

I looked at dozens of used model S's....most under 50k miles but all out of warranty because the 2016/2017 (free supercharging) model year are all coming up. i dont think a single one of them had a battery pack lower than 90% degradation? could a used one suddenly stop working the moment you buy it? sure!

This is what I’ve found as well. I’ve also found sources for used batteries which are significantly less expensive than new, and include a warranty. If I buy one of these, I will budget for a battery replacement and expect I wouldn’t need it. Or, I will buy an after market warranty from a source like https://www.xcelerateauto.com/xcare for everything except the battery and consider their separate warranty for the battery as well, and simply factor that cost into the purchase price of the car.

its all relative and just underscores the fallacy of painting everything with a sensational headline while ignoring important details.

Truth! We need more objectivity on TUG.

 

[HitchHiker71]

yea thats just not the case at all anymore.... even dealers struggle to source common replacement parts these days with weeks/months worth of backlogs unless you want to pay an ultra premium from an online vendor etc.

I think there is at least some truth to the parts delays (and therefore repair delays) issue simply because of the vertical integration model that Tesla embraces in particular. This essentially means that no third party parts can be used for Tesla repairs without potentially voiding the warranty, and parts delays are entirely related to Tesla parts manufacturing limitations. Tesla is ramping up a section of their facility in Buffalo, NY area to provide more parts manufacturing for repairs for existing service centers and non-Tesla certified body shops (since Tesla doesn't really do any body work as a general rule - they have certified third parties that do almost all body work these days). I suspect as this facility ramps up - third parties will be eligible for maintenance certifications and be able to get parts once certified. That said, unlike the legacy auto industry, third party parts for even major repairs, at least last I checked regarding Tesla, aren't available anywhere, and if they are, you have to be careful as using third party parts can void the Tesla warranties as a general rule. Tesla is very particular about using Tesla parts and processes for all maintenance work for warrantied vehicles. If your warranty has run out though, do whatever you want basically.

A good example of this - the Ford NACS adapter - must be manufactured by Tesla - that was Tesla's requirement to allow access to the network - yet Tesla is way behind on producing this adapter and that's why Ford owners are having to wait so long to get one. There are third parties that also offer adapters, and many folks have bought from these third parties, but technically if there's an issue, it won't be covered under Ford's warranty apparently, at least this is what I've come to learn on this particular topic over the past few months.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This is what I’ve found as well. I’ve also found sources for used batteries which are significantly less expensive than new, and include a warranty. If I buy one of these, I will budget for a battery replacement and expect I wouldn’t need it. Or, I will buy an after market warranty from a source like https://www.xcelerateauto.com/xcare for everything except the battery and consider their separate warranty for the battery as well, and simply factor that cost into the purchase price of the car.

This is actually one of the net positives about being out of warranty - so what if you use non-certified third party parts - the entire car is out of warranty anyways!

 

[TUGBrian]

I just meant parts in general.

off the shelf stuff is hit or miss (for instance I had to return 3 straight starters for a truck last time i had to replace it)....instead turning to an ebay supplier for an oem ac delco part that just wasnt available at autozone/etc compared to the cheaper varieties.

mother in laws avalon sat for weeks waiting on a fuel pump at the dealer (warranty). just examples of it everywhere across all platforms. Though admittedly we are a bit spoiled in expecting everything to be able to arrive in the mail via "2 day prime delivery"!

 

[HitchHiker71]

I just meant parts in general.

off the shelf stuff is hit or miss (for instance I had to return 3 straight starters for a truck last time i had to replace it)....instead turning to an ebay supplier for an oem ac delco part that just wasnt available at autozone/etc compared to the cheaper varieties.

mother in laws avalon sat for weeks waiting on a fuel pump at the dealer (warranty). just examples of it everywhere across all platforms. Though admittedly we are a bit spoiled in expecting everything to be able to arrive in the mail via "2 day prime delivery"!

Agreed - parts availability - even for third party parts - still hasn't returned to pre-pandemic levels - not sure it ever will really - only time will tell. I've had to wait several days for certain parts for warranty repairs on my 2018 RAM 1500 this year, and also for parts not covered under warranty. Had to replace the gas tank nozzle assembly and the entire line down to the actual tank, along with some wiring harnesses that tripped CELs, all due to rodent damage. Fun fun super fun. Took about a week to get the parts delivered to the dealership.

 

[easyrider]

yea thats just not the case at all anymore.... even dealers struggle to source common replacement parts these days with weeks/months worth of backlogs unless you want to pay an ultra premium from an online vendor etc.

It depends on what part you are looking for. I can get anything for my vehicles at NAPA or online. My longest wait was for Jeep parts I ordered online and was only 10 days for the aftermarket shocks.

Bill

 

[tombanjo]

Hi I am here to tell you about an exciting offer for your car's extended warranty

Please send credit card details (with number from back) for a free quote !!!!

 

[easyrider]

We are talking about cars that are 10 years old now. These older Tesla vehicles are directly impacted by the fact that the MSRP's on MS's compared to when these models were sold - are literally 30-50+% lower now. Why would anyone pay 50k for a 10 year old MS that sold for well over 100k back in 2012-2014 when you can buy a brand new better MS for 72k today. So current MSRP values definitely negatively impact the older MS and MX models especially since they were very pricey models that sold for well over $100k (up to $150k easily) back in those days.

I disagree -this is no different than having an unexpected ICE failure that costs $15-20k to replace these days. It is comparatively a very rare occurrence. Here's a 2014 Tesla MS with over 285k miles on it still using the original battery pack (just as one example) - where the owner just had to replace the electric motor recently. These older model MS's actually had more issues with the electric motors than the battery packs from what I have learned over the years (just go out onto the TMC MS forums):

I do agree it's not worth investing $20k to replace a pack on a vehicle that's only worth $20k, but the same argument could be made when replacing any ICE on a 10 year old ICE vehicle. The newer Tesla models are manufactured such that it's much easier to swap the packs whenever needed. On the M3/MY models - it costs about 9-12k to replace their packs in comparison (and this cost is actually dropping each year) and the vast majority of that cost is the pack price (i.e. there's not a ton of labor when compared to the older Tesla MS/MX vehicles. I've actually gotten quotes to have a ICE replaced - back in 2018 when my 2012 RAM 1500 ICE failed - it would have cost me $8-10k to have the ICE replaced (and this was six years ago). Luckily I had an extended warranty that covered the repair (not replacement), but it never ran the same again and I traded it in not long after the repair. Point being, this same risk for a high repair bill exists for any type of older out of warranty vehicle really. Now you might say - I can swap an engine myself since I'm a good shade tree mechanic - but that's an outlier case by definition as 99% of drivers don't have the skills nor the equipment and would have to pay to have a ICE replaced. Same goes for battery packs.

It really depends on the vehicle , imo. If you start out with a decent ice vehicle you would be miles ahead of any EV, imo. It's common for a decent ice vehicles to run over 200,000 miles with no real problems. It's common for some ice vehicles to run 300,000 to 500,000 miles with no major problems. An example is a Toyota Camry or 4 Runner.

After all is said to support ev's, the fact is they aren't as good as a similar ice vehicle regarding reliability, repair, longevity and resale which are the issues many people are concerned about.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

I just meant parts in general.

off the shelf stuff is hit or miss (for instance I had to return 3 straight starters for a truck last time i had to replace it)....instead turning to an ebay supplier for an oem ac delco part that just wasnt available at autozone/etc compared to the cheaper varieties.

mother in laws avalon sat for weeks waiting on a fuel pump at the dealer (warranty). just examples of it everywhere across all platforms. Though admittedly we are a bit spoiled in expecting everything to be able to arrive in the mail via "2 day prime delivery"!

You should try NAPA. AutoZone sells some really crappy non-oem parts, imo. For oil and wax they are as good as anyone.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

It really depends on the vehicle , imo. If you start out with a decent ice vehicle you would be miles ahead of any EV, imo. It's common for a decent ice vehicles to run over 200,000 miles with no real problems. It's common for some ice vehicles to run 300,000 to 500,000 miles with no major problems. An example is a Toyota Camry or 4 Runner.

sure, however any vehicle running at 200/300/500k miles has had countless parts replaced on it over that time.

id also put vehicles that are still in nice running condition at those mileage levels at single digit percentages.

heres a tesla with 1.2 million miles!

Tesla Model S road warrior passes 1.2 million miles in 10 years

Hansjörg von Gemmingen-Hornberg's Tesla Model S has now reached a very impressive 1,960,000 km (1,217,887 miles) on its odometer.

www.teslarati.com

After all is said to support ev's, the fact is they aren't as good as a similar ice vehicle regarding reliability, repair, longevity and resale which are the issues many people are concerned about.

Bill

and we are back to your opinion with absolutely no basis in fact. I think everyone gets it at this point that you are not an EV fan, however nearly every point you have tried to make to support your opinion has been debunked.