Arriving Guest Information [merged]

[sponger76]

Well said. Basically what is being done today is Marriott advertising / selling what they call a premium product with access to prime resorts, locations and times but the underlying product consists of low demand Palm Desert July / August, Branson winter, Park City Summer, etc. points inventory. This puts more and more pressure on the overall prime inventory impacting customer satisfaction.

All businesses that advertise or sell will highlight the best possible uses of their products and skip over the less pleasant realities that exist. I might not like it, but I do accept reality.

 

[BreakingAway]

They're not selling magic wands, they're selling a tool that has the potential to get you an end result. I could sell you a Bowflex and tell you it can help get you shredded. But unless you use it correctly, you'll still look the same and all you'll get out of it is an oddly shaped laundry rack. Bowflex marketing doesn't have to tell you about all the time and pain you have to put in to get that gain, and they don't have to. The only difference here is that with a Bowflex you're not forced to compete against other Bowflex owners to get in shape.

One of the things I appreciate about TUG forums is that they offer various opinions and different points of view. I welcome your point of view. I just do not agree with it.

 

[DRH90277]

Spend those points - Well, this is where the outsourced stuff comes in to play like cruises, resort credits, tours, Bonvoy point exchanges, etc. This is where you can get a bad deal for your points in relation to resorts from the Trust. Or, you can bank the points for the next year with hopes for a better outcome.

Many of us will survive by looking at what we can do through using our weeks, Interval, renting our weeks, but use more discretion in the Abound program. The sad part is these actions may work to the disadvantage of the Abound family of vacationers.

The Abound program reminds me of my youth when we sold corn, peas, beans, etc. to the DelMonte plant. It seemed to work well. Then, things changed, the plant eventually closed as the farmers changed their crops. 50 years later the plant remains but closed.

There is some comfort in owning great season deeded weeks as MVC is more limited in what they can do. We'll just use them up!

 

[DanCali]

See THIS POST for the full language found in the underlying governing document for weeks (this policy apparently applies to weeks as well.) Here is a snippet:
View attachment 77660

I do see one major difference...

Here is the language from Abound Exchange Procedures:

This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

With weeks it is up to the Board to determine what is a commercial enterprise. With exchanges it is up to the Exchange Company (MVC) to determine that. It seems to me that it's easier for MVC to act on behalf of the "Exchange Company" since they kind of are one and the same.

Has the "Board" even defined what a commercial enterprise is? Have you seen Board minutes dealing with the topic? If owners are not happy with the Board they can (in theory) replace the Board. You don't have any power over "Exchange Company", and they allowed themselves to set the policies as they see fit. The only thing you can do is leave Abound and stop paying them $200-$250 in annual fees.

 

[Sicnarf]

"reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice" is very subjective. Note that commercial practice, by definition, is intended for profit. And there is no way you can make a profit for a very long time if you take into account the purchase cost, interest cost, and maintenance fees. So renting timeshare is not a commercial enterprise as it just mitigates your losses, not provide real profit.

 

[sponger76]

"reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice" is very subjective. Note that commercial practice, by definition, is intended for profit. And there is no way you can make a profit for a very long time if you take into account the purchase cost, interest cost, and maintenance fees. So renting timeshare is not a commercial enterprise as it just mitigates your losses, not provide real profit.

Admittedly difficult if you purchase retail. Much easier if you pick up weeks resale. Lots of prime weeks rent for multiples of the MFs. And consider the word intent. Some people might not make a profit over the long term, but they are trying to. Not reaching that goal just means that they're bad at business or had bad luck, not that they're not engaged in commercial practice.

 

[Dean]

View attachment 77661

I do see one major difference...

Here is the language from Abound Exchange Procedures:

This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

With weeks it is up to the Board to determine what is a commercial enterprise. With exchanges it is up to the Exchange Company (MVC) to determine that. It seems to me that it's easier for MVC to act on behalf of the "Exchange Company" since they kind of are one and the same.

Has the "Board" even defined what a commercial enterprise is? Have you seen Board minutes dealing with the topic? If owners are not happy with the Board they can (in theory) replace the Board. You don't have any power over "Exchange Company", and they allowed themselves to set the policies as they see fit. The only thing you can do is leave Abound and stop paying them $200-$250 in annual fees.

Ultimately I don't see any difference as MVC will bring the matter to the board and I can't see them bucking the management company in this matter.

I’ve always thought there was more story than substance when a salesman tells me how they’re doing this themselves. Just another lie to get us to buy.

Same here. I have had a few that stated the "managed" the account for "their owners", one in particular who stated he did so for rentals renting even weeks like Coachella.

 

[davidvel]

Ultimately I don't see any difference as MVC will bring the matter to the board and I can't see them bucking the management company in this matter.


Same here. I have had a few that stated the "managed" the account for "their owners", one in particular who stated he did so for rentals renting even weeks like Coachella.

I doubt any board has passed any rule requiring this BS.

 

[WahooWah]

Not if you or your family are going to eat them. But if you're jointly entitled with others to some of a barrel of apples to feed your family and you take the best and, instead of eating them, sell them to others who aren't part of that apple barrel ownership, leaving the other owners just the wormy ones to feed their families, there's a problem.

I have ZERO problem with you USING all of the product you purchased. If you own 52 weeks, stay in timeshares for 52 weeks. You purchased the ability to vacation a week at a time (or more/less if you are using points) at these resorts. But what you did NOT purchase was a vacation rental business. I dare you to show me the contract that says you did.

This is from the Maui Ocean Club disclosure statement that was updated Jan 6, 2022. It explicitly states that an owner has the right to rent their Use Period on their own. Doesn't matter if it is fixed or floating.

 

[WahooWah]

I think it's a number of things. Large commercial renters may indeed be booking a lot of prime reservations with the intent of renting. In addition, if a lot of individual owners are doing the same thing, in aggregate you get the exact same result. As far as weeks owned by the trust, it has never been great because when the trust was created pretty much all the prime weeks at existing resorts were sold, leaving MVC only with the off-season weeks to transfer into it. Not MVC's fault, just a natural consequence of creating the trust well after they had started off selling actual weeks. ROFR of high-value weeks, as discussed previously, is not a good investment from MVC's point of view.

As such, barring the development of new resorts, Abound is indeed dependent upon weeks owners electing their weeks for points. And yes, some owners might not elect for points because they feel they won't get good reservations in return. But I think just as important is that: 1) Many simply like their owned resorts and use the weeks that way, which I can't blame them for. 2) Many may feel they can get better value by renting either renting those weeks or trading via II. I can't blame the re: II, and as far as renting, I actually don't have a problem if it's a fixed week; floating weeks I feel differently, but that's just my take.


This is something I can 100% agree with you on. Despite the get out of jail free clause about not relying on verbal assurances, I think it is basically criminal to allow salespeople to do this. The question is, how do we get that practice to end? I'll admit I don't have anything close to a good answer. From what I've read here on TUG, any lawsuits that have been filed and not just threatened on the internet don't seem to have had an effect.

I think Marriott salespeople who do this are actually in violation of securities laws. By selling a real estate product and making representations of future rental value or resale value, you are then selling a security which requires an SEC license.

 

[DanCali]

I think Marriott salespeople who do this are actually in violation of securities laws. By selling a real estate product and making representations of future rental value or resale value, you are then selling a security which requires an SEC license.

Except that the paper you signed say:

"You acknowledge that we have made no representations to you regarding the Interest's potential for future profit, rental potential, tax advantages, depreciation, or investment potential."

"You understand and acknowledge that no salesperson, broker, or other person has any authority whatsoever to make any representation, agreement or warranty, express or implied, for us, except those expressly set forth in writing in this Agreement..."

So why would you be relying on something said by something you acknowledged has no authority to represent anything? They did give you 7-10 days to read that carefully and change your mind.

 

[davidvel]

This is from the Maui Ocean Club disclosure statement that was updated Jan 6, 2022. It explicitly states that an owner has the right to rent their Use Period on their own. Doesn't matter if it is fixed or floating.

Wow, that's even better than MRD. "Case closed."

 

[dioxide45]

This is from the Maui Ocean Club disclosure statement that was updated Jan 6, 2022. It explicitly states that an owner has the right to rent their Use Period on their own. Doesn't matter if it is fixed or floating.

But it still blocks commercial rentals programs. AKA big operators.

 

[grupp]

Ultimately I don't see any difference as MVC will bring the matter to the board and I can't see them bucking the management company in this matter.

I actually think that maks a big difference even if the Board ultimately agrees with the Management Company. Admittedly, I am not as familiar with the all the Owners Association documents as some of you are, but what I have seen in the documents at the resorts I own is it provides a process for the Board to take action against the owner for violation of the Governing Documents or Rules. It requries there be an initial notice of the violaiton, states what potential enforcement actions that may be taken for the violations and provides for the owner the ability to request a hearing if they disagree with the Boards decision.

I would much prefer this process than Marriott just arbitrarily canceling owners reservations when they beleive an owner is in violation of the rules.

 

[dioxide45]

I would much prefer this process than Marriott just arbitrarily canceling owners reservations when they beleive an owner is in violation of the rules.

I doubt we will ever see home resort reservations cancelled. Abound Club Points reservations could be a different story. MVC controls the rules on those.

 

[WahooWah]

But it still blocks commercial rentals programs. AKA big operators.

I'm not so sure. It says an owner may not join a rental pool before December 31, 2020. That seems to suggest that rental pools are allowed now at MOC. Perhaps there is other language in the CC&Rs that restricts commercial use.

 

[dioxide45]

I'm not so sure. It says an owner may not join a rental pool before December 31, 2020. That seems to suggest that rental pools are allowed now at MOC. Perhaps there is other language in the CC&Rs that restricts commercial use.

What is a rental pool? It doesn't seem to be defined. It does mention the commercial use restriction in the text you posted;

 

[kds4]

I just got this today. Seems MVCI wants to know info on all non-owner 'guests' to pitch them ownership presentations (as well as potentially dissuade owners from renting out their units).
"Reportedly, if this is not done the guest will have issues checking in and can even be rejected and the reservation canceled. This appears to be because Marriott wants the guest information to offer them a Timeshare tour when they stay with them. So the first portion of the form is all the guest personal information which they verify when they check in. The second part of the form are for you the owner to agree too and you can see the questions here:

The Owner identified above hereby submits this Guest Form and provides the following certifications and acknowledgments:

1 - I have obtained consent from the Guest to provide Marriott Vacation Club International and its affiliates (“MVCI”) the required Guest information.

2 - I have advised the Guest of MVCI’s Global Privacy Statement and agree to hold harmless and indemnity MVCI for any claim by the Guest relating to MVCI’s collection and use of the Guest information.

3 - Guest name and contact information provided are accurate and I have advised the Guest that, should MVCI be unable to verify the Guest information prior to arrival, the Guest will not be allowed to check-in.

4 - I have advised the Guest that the Guest must check-in at the front desk of the property with valid identification and a valid credit card.
5 - I am responsible for any damages to the property caused by the Guest and others associated with the Guest.

6 -If I do NOT stay at the property, I will not receive Marriott Bonvoy Elite night credits in conjunction with this stay.

7 - If I do stay at the property, I will not receive Marriott Bonvoy Elite night credits unless I present valid identification and check-in at the front desk.

8 - Commercial use of accommodations, use period or related benefits, including but not limited to a pattern of rental activity, is prohibited under the applicable reservation or exchange procedures and may result in cancellation of reservations. I certify that this reservation is not for any commercial purpose, and I hereby release MVCI and its affiliates from any and all liability relating to or arising from any such reservation cancellation.

Please choose one of the follow:

1 - I intend to stay at the property for substantially the full length of the stay according to the confirmation details.
2 - I DO NOT intend to stay at the property for substantially the full length of the stay according to the confirmation details.

Please sign below by typing your name and submit the completed Request*.

/S/ Reserving Owner Signature:

 

[StevenTing]

Late to the party. I posted this on a FB group. With the issue of commercial activity, I have no opinion.

But with the 30 day notice, this is nothing new. The form references Exchange Procedures. If you look at your exchange documents, on page 11, it mentioned the requirement to notify MVC at least 30 days before of a name change. I was able to confirm this language existed in the 2017 version of the documents and another person was able to verify it in the 2015 version. It was likely in the original 2010 version when the points program was started.

So for the points program, this is nothing new. They’re just establish the processes to provide notification. Also on page 11 indicates the remedy for MVC if not provided at least 30 days out is cancellation of the reservation. I don’t like this part but it’s what I signed when I bought my points.


However, I think this should only apply to point reservations as Weeks ownerships have their own CCR’s that dictate. I haven’t looked at my weeks documents to see if there is any similar language but for points program, it’s always been there. The majority of us do not fall under commercial activity.

 

[dioxide45]

Late to the party. I posted this on a FB group. With the issue of commercial activity, I have no opinion.

But with the 30 day notice, this is nothing new. The form references Exchange Procedures. If you look at your exchange documents, on page 11, it mentioned the requirement to notify MVC at least 30 days before of a name change. I was able to confirm this language existed in the 2017 version of the documents and another person was able to verify it in the 2015 version. It was likely in the original 2010 version when the points program was started.

So for the points program, this is nothing new. They’re just establish the processes to provide notification. Also on page 11 indicates the remedy for MVC if not provided at least 30 days out is cancellation of the reservation. I don’t like this part but it’s what I signed when I bought my points.


However, I think this should only apply to point reservations as Weeks ownerships have their own CCR’s that dictate. I haven’t looked at my weeks documents to see if there is any similar language but for points program, it’s always been there. The majority of us do not fall under commercial activity.

From the 2010 version;

 

[GTLINZ]

When I got into timeshares, i had an understanding that i was dealing with entities that could change the rules (after reading thru the rules). I had confidence, as others do, that i could work it all to my advantage (which i have, so far).

It sure feels like my ownership benefits are degrading over time. And i am reminded - ""when I deal with snakes, why am i surprised when they bite?"

 

[DanCali]

When I got into timeshares, i had an understanding that i was dealing with entities that could change the rules (after reading thru the rules). I had confidence, as others do, that i could work it all to my advantage (which i have, so far).

It sure feels like my ownership benefits are degrading over time. And i am reminded - ""when I deal with snakes, why am i surprised when they bite?"

If the snakes are now hungrier and more venomous, you may just want to be more careful how many times you step into that snake pit each year. You risk getting bitten each time you venture down there.

 

[dioxide45]

We were told at our presentation yesterday to buy more points and rent many of them out to pay all our fees. So they continue to push point rentals as a reason to buy more points.

 

[GTLINZ]

We were told at our presentation yesterday to buy more points and rent many of them out to pay all our fees. So they continue to push point rentals as a reason to buy more points.

You now have a valid reason to say that renting is being discouraged by their employer, and why would they even suggest that?

If/when they argue back with you ..
1) according to their wording, they can cancel your guest at their descretion with no liability
2) you cannot be guaranteed that a change in the last 30 days will be processed in time
3) can i have my gift now?

 

[vol_90]

We were told at our presentation yesterday to buy more points and rent many of them out to pay all our fees. So they continue to push point rentals as a reason to buy more points.

Did you make any comments about recent changes with what appears to be Marriott trying to crack down on rentals? Just curious.