You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[HitchHiker71]

I wonder what EV owners do while charging their EV in cold weather. From what I see , most EV chargers are out in the open and most gas stations have a canopy over the gas pump. From what I have read, it takes longer to charge an EV than to fill a gas tank and also the charging time increases in the cold because the chemical reaction in the battery is impacted by the cold temps.

If it's a cold & crappy day, with a little moisture and wind, charging an EV outdoors for 30 minutes seem like 25 minutes more than filling up my SUV.

Bill

Considering the study I referenced indicates that 72% of all EV owners use home charging, this point is largely moot since those owners hardly ever use public chargers. When it comes to using public chargers on road trips during cold weather, for those of us with real world experience with EV ownership, you do one of two things: 1) you sit in your EV - which is toasty warm - and surf on your phone - or you watch video content via Youtube, Netflix, Disney, Amazon, etc. on the big screen or 2) you exit the vehicle and go eat something or take a bathroom break if/when the charger is located adjacent to a restaurant or shopping center for example (which IME is about 75% of the time). The issue you're referencing only occurs if the battery is cold - and if you've been driving on a road trip - the pack is plenty warm already - so there's not really any issues charging nor are the charging sessions any longer.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Why would you exclude Tesla when they are the cream of the crop and highest penetration EV? Sounds like stupid cherry picking to prove a false point, no?

It is like saying, "Excluding the owners of the best prices, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares." LAme.

This study proves what I've been saying all along - companies who build SDVs enjoy very high loyalty and a very high percentage of repeat buyers. Companies who build vehicles that are simply swapped powertrains that are not SDVs enjoy much lower brand loyalty and much lower percentages of repeat buyers - as there is nothing compelling in play for these EV powered but still core ICE designed vehicles in comparison.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Does it seem to take longer, like twice as long maybe ?

Bill

It doesn't take any longer - literally no more time - since preconditioning preps the pack prior to arriving at the Tesla SC station. I'd imagine in much colder environments like up in Alaska or northern Canada where temps are much lower this issue may impact more BEVs, but I know quite a few folks who live up in Canada who own BEVS and I've never heard them complain about longer charging times.

 

[HitchHiker71]

KBB probably excluded Tesla because , like you said, they are the cream of the crop. I kind of thought it lame too but it does contrast the point that @HitchHiker71 made of only 1% globally wanting out of the EV market after owning an EV.

Bill

KBB didn't do anything - they are interpreting data from the S&P Global Mobility study and writing an article about it.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I was wondering about charging times in very cold weather. It looks like it could be a problem. Reading the comments at the Tesla owners forum indicate cold weather and faulty chargers may have been the problem. I bet the owners who experienced this are thinking twice about buying another EV.

Bill

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1224913698/teslas-chicago-charging-extreme-cold

Chicago area superchargers failing in cold

News story Seems like they can't handle the -15 fahrenheit temperatures. I had no problem the day before across the Wisconsin border when it was -7. Lucky I'm not traveling now. Anyone have details why they are failing?

teslamotorsclub.com

The Chicago issue had to do with a number of different issues, primarily over-utilization of public chargers by ridesharing companies (Lyft, Uber, etc.), combined with some technical issues with the Tesla V3 SC stations - which all use liquid cooling - and the liquid cooling elements needed to be adjusted to account for lower temps to function correctly. Out of Spec dove deep into this issue due to the wide reporting - just to determine what actually happened:

Podcast review of Chicago issue:

Live on the ground during Chicago issues:

 

[easyrider]

Considering the study I referenced indicates that 72% of all EV owners use home charging, this point is largely moot since those owners hardly ever use public chargers.

You referred to global EV owners. Globally speaking, most EV owners do not own a house or house charger. The use of public chargers as the main source of charging an EV is the norm in China, India and probably most of Europe.

It doesn't take any longer - literally no more time - since preconditioning preps the pack prior to arriving at the Tesla SC station. I'd imagine in much colder environments like up in Alaska or northern Canada where temps are much lower this issue may impact more BEVs, but I know quite a few folks who live up in Canada who own BEVS and I've never heard them complain about longer charging times.

Even though cold weather can impact an ice vehicle it doesn't degrade the fuel so much. EV battery degradation occurs at 86 degrees and 20 degrees below zero. At 20 degrees below zero temp the battery looses about 41% of the range.

The Chicago issue had to do with a number of different issues

Which caused a massive problem if you owned an EV and needed to use a charger.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

You referred to global EV owners. Globally speaking, most EV owners do not own a house or house charger. The use of public chargers as the main source of charging an EV is the norm in China, India and probably most of Europe.

I didn't refer to anything other than the comprehensive study from the Global EV Alliance - or GEVA for short. This was a global study, the data in question from this survey came from 23,254 owners across 18 countries, as follows:

From those respondents globally, this was the data for charging (again - globally - not just in the US):

So 72% of charging is done at home - globally - not just here in the US. This refutes your assertion that the majority of EV charging is done via L3 chargers outside of the US.

Even though cold weather can impact an ice vehicle it doesn't degrade the fuel so much. EV battery degradation occurs at 86 degrees and 20 degrees below zero. At 20 degrees below zero temp the battery looses about 41% of the range.

I've personally never seen a 41% range loss during winter months - we see about a 10% hit on average when traveling during winter months when roadtripping. So for example, we often take a 138 mile trip each way up to the Poconos from our home 5-6 times a year (at least), and we'll use about 50% of the pack energy - that rises to 60% during the coldest months when temps never get above the 30s even during the daylight hours, and drop down well below freezing during nighttime hours. I'm not saying 41% isn't possible, but where is this assertion coming from exactly?

Which caused a massive problem if you owned an EV and needed to use a charger.

Bill

Taking an outlier case from a deep freeze in Chicago and presenting is as a majority case doesn't serve as a good basis upon which to make a cogent argument.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This group has been around a long time
Here are their 5 finalists for best EV in 2025

Best Car To Buy 2025: Green Car Reports names 5 finalists

The Chevy Equinox EV, Hyundai Kona Electric, Porsche Macan Electric, Rivian R1S, and VW ID.Buzz are the final contenders. One will be the 2025 Best Car To Buy.

www.greencarreports.com

It's interesting to me that of those five recommendations, I'd only consider one to be a legitimate SDV - the Rivian R1S. I wouldn't purchase anything other than a SDV personally. VW has a horrible reputation with software issues with their BEVs (as does Porsche since they are owned by VW). I'd consider Kia/Hyundai personally - they are headed in the right direction at least. I wouldn't consider anything from GM at this early stage - they are having a lot of software challenges as well. Tesla is by far the leader in the SDV space from a software standpoint, let alone FSD. FSD v13 is just now rolling out, and it is basically approaching feature completion for self-driving.

 

[davidvel]

I think you missed the point David but that's ok. Here you go. The USA EV use is much different than global EV use. While there are Tesla owners globally the majority of Tesla owners live in North America and more specifically the USA. This is probably why KBB excluded Tesla from their survey.

The point being that global EV use isn't anything like the USA EV use. There really isn't any need for logic to solve this, imo. If there is spout it out, instead of using antagonistic comments as if they mean anything, lol.

Bill

Bill, I am genuinely getting concerned for your mental health. Do you read what you write, and still not understand? Your original post falsely claimed that "In the USA the number is 57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with EV's again." Now you are talking about non-US EV owners being differrrnt than US owners? And I am missing the point? Are you OK?

Also, if one (YOU) was claiming that EV owners have a low satisfaction rate, why would they include NON-EV owners in the supporting study, as YOU did? Let's go down memory lane, as you may not recall what has happened here:

In the USA the number is 57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again probably because of the learning curve, inconvenience and lack of time to wait around for a charge.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/survey-most-americans-say-they-wont-buy-an-ev-next/

Fifty-seven percent of Americans say their next car likely won’t be an electric vehicle (EV) or a plug-in hybrid (PHEV), according to a new survey.

What you posted is FALSE. The study did not show "57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again" nor did it support your faulty opinion about learning cures. Just more Bill-S.

So you posted a new study to support your false claim that "EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again."

I'm sorry. I got that article mixed up with this one.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-excluding-tesla-few-ev-owners-would-go-ev-again/

Tesla owners are a famously loyal group. Remove them from the equation, though, and just 52.1% of electric vehicle (EV) owners buy an EV next time they go car shopping.

Again this article does not support your FALSE claim that "57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again." If anything it supports the assertion that The owners of the least favored EVs (non Testlas) are the least satisfied EV owners. Which are of course, shocking results. As I said, this "is like saying, Excluding the owners of the best priced, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares."

If one was trying to determine EV satisfaction rates, why would they exclude the brand that has the highest satisfaction? Why would that be? It is like saying, "Excluding the owners of the best priced, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares." LAme.

 

[easyrider]

Bill, I am genuinely getting concerned for your mental health. Do you read what you write, and still not understand? Your original post falsely claimed that "In the USA the number is 57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with EV's again." Now you are talking about non-US EV owners being differrrnt than US owners? And I am missing the point? Are you OK?

Also, if one (YOU) was claiming that EV owners have a low satisfaction rate, why would they include NON-EV owners in the supporting study, as YOU did? Let's go down memory lane, as you may not recall what has happened here:

What you posted is FALSE. The study did not show "57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again" nor did it support your faulty opinion about learning cures. Just more Bill-S.

So you posted a new study to support your false claim that "EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again."

Again this article does not support your FALSE claim that "57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again." If anything it supports the assertion that The owners of the least favored EVs (non Testlas) are the least satisfied EV owners. Which are of course, shocking results. As I said, this "is like saying, Excluding the owners of the best priced, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares."

If one was trying to determine EV satisfaction rates, why would they exclude the brand that has the highest satisfaction? Why would that be? It is like saying, "Excluding the owners of the best priced, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare ow

David, I did correct the articles that I mixed up.

Bill

Study: Excluding Tesla, Few EV Owners Would Go EV Again​

I'm sorry. I got that article mixed up with this one.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-excluding-tesla-few-ev-owners-would-go-ev-again/

Tesla owners are a famously loyal group. Remove them from the equation, though, and just 52.1% of electric vehicle (EV) owners buy an EV next time they go car shopping.

This has NOTHING to do with sitting in your EV using the the climate control and watching a video/movie while it is charging at an ACTIVE level 3 charger

And the response was:

To which you responded:

To which I replied:


Please keep on track

DrQ, I'm not sure where to begin but the KBB article states what it states. The Tesla Owners forum reveal real time problems and is what it is, like it or not.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

KBB didn't do anything - they are interpreting data from the S&P Global Mobility study and writing an article about it.

They published the article which is actually doing something.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Taking an outlier case from a deep freeze in Chicago and presenting is as a majority case doesn't serve as a good basis upon which to make a cogent argument.

If this can happen in Chicago it can happen anywhere. This is just one of many valid reasons why many car buyers won't even consider buying an EV.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

It's interesting to me that of those five recommendations, I'd only consider one to be a legitimate SDV - the Rivian R1S. I wouldn't purchase anything other than a SDV personally. VW has a horrible reputation with software issues with their BEVs (as does Porsche since they are owned by VW). I'd consider Kia/Hyundai personally - they are headed in the right direction at least. I wouldn't consider anything from GM at this early stage - they are having a lot of software challenges as well. Tesla is by far the leader in the SDV space from a software standpoint, let alone FSD. FSD v13 is just now rolling out, and it is basically approaching feature completion for self-driving.

I am seeing a lot of people moving to Porsche, Lucid and Rivian in my area of California
In the luxury EV market, the Tesla is no longer a contender in So Cal
The model S styling is so yesterday
The other models are too mundane
I spoke with a woman several months ago at the club and she told me she wanted an EV
She wanted it to be different than a Tesla
I suggested she look at a Lucid, Porsche, and Rivian
She had no idea what any of these EV vehicles were
She did her research and bought a Lucid Grand Touring
It was the first Lucid in the club parking lot
I hear through the grapevine she loves it
Charges at home like most do

 

[HitchHiker71]

If this can happen in Chicago it can happen anywhere. This is just one of many valid reasons why many car buyers won't even consider buying an EV.

Bill

Watch the videos from Out of Spec that I linked to above. The reality of the Chicago circumstance was that 75% of those waiting to charge at the L3 public charging stations - were rideshare cars - not normal EV owners using their vehicles for personal use. This is a widely known issue within urban areas where L3 public charging station utilizations are high - primarily because of rideshare owners/companies using the public charging stations too frequently for commercial business purposes.

For EV owners regarding actual personal use, given 72% of EV owners globally charge at home, this issue is moot for the vast majority of EV owners right out of the gate. I do understand that in urban areas there are likely more EV owners that cannot charge at home, but even in urban areas - many users charge at "home" via L2 public chargers provided within their parking structures (for condos in other words), or private L2 chargers installed in their dedicated parking spaces - L2 chargers are becoming increasingly common in other words - which lessen or even eliminate the need for L3 public charger use in these types of circumstances. The issue of the L3 Tesla SC charging cord liquids becoming problematic doesn't exist for all L2 chargers since they don't use liquid cooling in the first place given they charge at lower kwh rates that don't require cable heat management. Tesla has already adjusted the cooling liquid mixes in all L3 SC stations in colder areas to account for issues like this - i.e. deep freezes - so this issue will not occur again moving forward. It's awfully convenient, or suspect, that certain outfits like KBB neglect to report that the remediations have already occurred to prevent issues like this from recurring, isn't it?

 

[HitchHiker71]

I am seeing a lot of people moving to Porsche, Lucid and Rivian in my area of California
In the luxury EV market, the Tesla is no longer a contender in So Cal
The model S styling is so yesterday
The other models are too mundane
I spoke with a woman several months ago at the club and she told me she wanted an EV
She wanted it to be different than a Tesla
I suggested she look at a Lucid, Porsche, and Rivian
She had no idea what any of these EV vehicles were
She did her research and bought a Lucid Grand Touring
It was the first Lucid in the club parking lot
I hear through the grapevine she loves it
Charges at home like most do

I had a $100 deposit on a Lucid Air Pure a couple years back before they came to market, but ultimately it proved too expensive for us to consider ($90k plus), and there was no service center within 100 miles of where we live to boot. I do like the Lucid Gravity that is just starting to roll out now, but Lucid is still so unprofitable that I'm uncertain the brand will survive long term, and there still isn't a service center within 100 miles of my location either, so I ended up getting my deposit refunded. Lucid makes very pretty cars though IMHO.

I still have a $100 deposit on a Rivian R2 - and on a RAM 1500 REV - same day deposits when both were debuted - but I won't have to make any actual purchase decision on the Rivian deposit until late 2025 or likely 2026 timeframe, and likely the same with the RAM 1500 REV. I am unlikely to follow through on the RAM 1500 REV given how far behind Stellantis is when it comes to SDV product development.

 

[emeryjre]

Lucid has invested in SoCal
Just like Early Tesla
San Diego still has the world's nicest weather

 

[Elan]

I had a $100 deposit on a Lucid Air Pure a couple years back before they came to market, but ultimately it proved too expensive for us to consider ($90k plus), and there was no service center within 100 miles of where we live to boot. I do like the Lucid Gravity that is just starting to roll out now, but Lucid is still so unprofitable that I'm uncertain the brand will survive long term, and there still isn't a service center within 100 miles of my location either, so I ended up getting my deposit refunded. Lucid makes very pretty cars though IMHO.

I still have a $100 deposit on a Rivian R2 - and on a RAM 1500 REV - same day deposits when both were debuted - but I won't have to make any actual purchase decision on the Rivian deposit until late 2025 or likely 2026 timeframe, and likely the same with the RAM 1500 REV. I am unlikely to follow through on the RAM 1500 REV given how far behind Stellantis is when it comes to SDV product development.

Isn't the R2 supposed to be $45k? That could be appealing.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Isn't the R2 supposed to be $45k? That could be appealing.

Eventually there will be a R2 RWD single motor model that will be under 50k, but the higher end dual and trimotor models will be introduced first. The dual and trimotor models will likely price into the 55-70k range best guess - though pricing has yet to be announced since production won’t start until 2026 timeframe - and not until 2027 for the lower priced variants.

Personally I like the more angular looks of the Rivian products when compared to the more streamlined looks of most EVs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ken555]

https://www.fastcompany.com/91243517/this-solar-paint-could-charge-your-ev-any-time-its-in-the-sun

The photovoltaic material Mercedes has been researching is like a paste that can be applied to a car’s exterior. The coating is just 5 micrometers thin (the average human hair is about 100 micrometers), and weighs 50 grams per square meter. On an average midsize SUV, the paste, which Mercedes is also calling a solar paint, would take up about 118 square feet, producing enough energy to travel up to 7,456 miles per year. That’s under “ideal conditions,” the car maker notes; exactly how much energy this would actually harvest depends on the strength of the sun and how much shade there is.

 

[easyrider]

So 72% of charging is done at home - globally

No it isn't. 72% of EV owners in 18 countries charge at home is what you are really saying. The 18 countries listed are countries where home ownership is the norm.

Bill

 

[Elan]

I saw an ad on TV last night with some pretty decent lease terms on GM EV's. One was an Equinox and I didn't catch the other.

 

[HitchHiker71]

No it isn't. 72% of EV owners in 18 countries charge at home is what you are really saying. The 18 countries listed are countries where home ownership is the norm.

Bill

Those are weighted ratings, and included India - which you explicitly stated didn’t have much home charging. China doesn’t allow people to participate in these kinds of surveys - but they do maintain their own data on this topic and 38% of EV owners charge at home - but China has made huge investments in L2 chargers at workplaces so 35% of EV owners in China charge at work as a result, which isn’t much different than charging at home - which effectively means that 38+35=73% of EV owners charge their vehicles while they sit unused at either work or home. The overall point here is that the vast majority of charging for personal use EVs isn’t from L3 public fast chargers for daily use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[easyrider]

The overall point here is that the vast majority of charging for personal use EVs isn’t from L3 public fast chargers for daily use

Fair enough. If we had an EV we would only charge from home as the EV wouldn't be used for long road trips.

I guess the main issue is reliability, especially in severe weather in coastal areas, temperatures over 86 degrees and temperatures under minus 20. Other issues might be physical impacts, improper charging, depreciation issues, software updates, lack of service centers with qualified technicians, insurance costs, environmental damages caused by mining and charging stations using different apps and connectors.

At least the EV can be charged at home unless there is a power outage.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

At least the EV can be charged at home unless there is a power outage.

During a power outage, your local gas station won't be pumping gasoline either. If it's localized enough to find power a short drive away, you can probably find a public charger just as you could find a gas station.

 

[easyrider]

During a power outage, your local gas station won't be pumping gasoline either. If it's localized enough to find power a short drive away, you can probably find a public charger just as you could find a gas station.

aha !!! Many people have a gas can in their garage. lol.

Bill