You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[HitchHiker71]

Thanks Dave, I read these and received an explanation that made sense. When you buy the car you receive the $7,500 tax credit from the dealer.Even though the rules say the tax credit is not to be used for resale, there is no time limit of how long you have to own it. In most cases, the deprecation would be more than the $7,500 tax credit is why I think there is no time limit. The state rebate which was available created a situation where the EV could be sold resale and even with the depreciation there would be a decent profit even after a year, imo.

Bill

Honestly I doubt this will be the case - don't buy any BEV with the intention of making any money. Given we have seen higher depreciation rates for EVs on average, this is far from a safe bet. If the federal and state tax credits are still available for new vehicles at that future point in time - this is largely why accelerated depreciation of used BEV values occurs in the first place - since those same rebates are generally only available for newly purchased BEVs - which drives down the used BEV prices significantly. Why buy a slightly used BEV at a higher price than buying that same BEV brand new - or within a few thousand dollars - which often comes with subsidized financing rates from the manufacturer to boot?

 

[emeryjre]

Rebates and tax credits are loved by new car sales managers
Hated by used car managers
Those great buys he made at auction or by giving weak trade in values disappear overnight
From hero to zero in one announcement

 

[easyrider]

Honestly I doubt this will be the case - don't buy any BEV with the intention of making any money. Given we have seen higher depreciation rates for EVs on average, this is far from a safe bet. If the federal and state tax credits are still available for new vehicles at that future point in time - this is largely why accelerated depreciation of used BEV values occurs in the first place - since those same rebates are generally only available for newly purchased BEVs - which drives down the used BEV prices significantly. Why buy a slightly used BEV at a higher price than buying that same BEV brand new - or within a few thousand dollars - which often comes with subsidized financing rates from the manufacturer to boot?

My timing was off by a few months or it would have been a decent flip on the Equinox, imo. I get what you are saying though.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Rebates and tax credits are loved by new car sales managers
Hated by used car managers
Those great buys he made at auction or by giving weak trade in values disappear overnight
From hero to zero in one announcement

It seems like the auto auctions are holding a bunch of repos that the banks think are worth more than what anyone wants to pay. They are all underwater regarding loan to value.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Study reveals less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to ICE​

Study reveals less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to ICE

A recent study has determined that less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to driving a gasoline or diesel-powered car.

www.teslarati.com

One of the first somewhat expansive surveys that I've seen on this topic. The data is sourced from this report: https://globalevalliance.com/wp-con...survey-2024-webinar-presentation-10-dec-1.pdf

 

[easyrider]

Study reveals less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to ICE​

Study reveals less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to ICE

A recent study has determined that less than 1% of EV owners wish to switch back to driving a gasoline or diesel-powered car.

www.teslarati.com

One of the first somewhat expansive surveys that I've seen on this topic. The data is sourced from this report: https://globalevalliance.com/wp-con...survey-2024-webinar-presentation-10-dec-1.pdf

In the USA the number is 57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again probably because of the learning curve, inconvenience and lack of time to wait around for a charge.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/survey-most-americans-say-they-wont-buy-an-ev-next/

Fifty-seven percent of Americans say their next car likely won’t be an electric vehicle (EV) or a plug-in hybrid (PHEV), according to a new survey.

 

[wilma]

In the USA the number is 57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again probably because of the learning curve, inconvenience and lack of time to wait around for a charge.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/survey-most-americans-say-they-wont-buy-an-ev-next/

Fifty-seven percent of Americans say their next car likely won’t be an electric vehicle (EV) or a plug-in hybrid (PHEV), according to a new survey.

Umm, that’s not what the article says. It’s not 57% of EV owners saying they won’t buy another EV, it’s 57% of all car owners, right? Very different….

 

[emeryjre]

The KBB survey was published over a year ago
It does not indicate if the people chosen were in the market for a vehicle at the time of the survey
It does not indicate what type of vehicle the individuals responding to the survey currently own
Perhaps the full survey document has this type of information
The bullet points do not contain this information

 

[Ken555]

Umm, that’s not what the article says. It’s not 57% of EV owners saying they won’t buy another EV, it’s 57% of all car owners, right? Very different….

Could we please take a break from the reading comprehension tests? Not everyone finds it easy to grasp everything they read, right?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Umm, that’s not what the article says. It’s not 57% of EV owners saying they won’t buy another EV, it’s 57% of all car owners, right? Very different….

Agreed - and the article is a bit dated having been published in October 2023 using data from earlier in 2023, but it's not far off current data according to GROK AI - which pegs consumer sentiment around 50% for an EV/PHEV/HEV purchase for their next vehicle:

x.com

x.com

 

[PigsDad]

Colorado outpaces California in EV market share​

https://kdvr.com/news/colorado/colorado-outpaces-california-in-ev-market-share-report/

So much for the "EVs don't work in cold environments" argument.

Kurt

 

[HitchHiker71]

Colorado outpaces California in EV market share​

https://kdvr.com/news/colorado/colorado-outpaces-california-in-ev-market-share-report/

So much for the "EVs don't work in cold environments" argument.

Kurt

CO state offers some stellar state rebates and incentives - better than pretty much anywhere else. For anyone living in CO state - if you haven't priced out a BEV with your state rebates - you owe it to yourself to take a serious look. I know several folks who have bought Tesla M3's for as little as 12-15k out of pocket once the federal and state rebates are stacked together when trading in a qualifying ICE vehicle while meeting income limits.

x.com

x.com

Colorado offers several EV rebates and incentives. Here's a comprehensive list based on the available data:

1. State EV Tax Credit:
   • A $5,000 state tax credit for the purchase or lease of a new EV with an MSRP up to $80,000.
   • An additional $2,500 tax credit for EVs with an MSRP up to $35,000.
     https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/all?state=CO
2. Vehicle Exchange Colorado (VXC):
   • A rebate program offering up to $6,000 for income-qualified Coloradans to replace old or high-emitting vehicles with new or used EVs.
     https://energyoffice.colorado.gov/transportation/grants-incentives/electric-vehicle-tax-credits
3. Utility Rebates:
   • Various utility companies in Colorado offer rebates for EV purchases and charger installations:
     • Xcel Energy provides rebates up to $5,500 for EV purchases and for home charger installations.
     • San Isabel Electric Association offers $500 rebates on EV purchases.
     • Black Hills Energy and other utilities have rebates for both EV purchases and charger installations.
       https://energyoffice.colorado.gov/transportation/grants-incentives/electric-vehicle-tax-credits
4. E-Bike Rebate:
   • Colorado also offers a $450 rebate for the purchase of qualifying e-bikes, which can be part of the EV incentive discussion as they promote electric mobility.
     https://driveelectriccolorado.org/incentives/tax-credits/
5. Commercial EV Incentives:
   • For businesses, there are incentives for purchasing commercial EVs, with credits up to $12,000 for heavy-duty trucks.
6. Charging Infrastructure Incentives:
   • Various grants and rebates are available for installing EV chargers, especially for businesses, multi-unit properties, and fleets.
     https://energyoffice.colorado.gov/transportation/grants-incentives/electric-vehicle-tax-credits
     These incentives are designed to encourage EV adoption, improve air quality, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The specifics can vary by vehicle type, income, and utility provider, so potential buyers should check eligibility requirements for each program.

 

[easyrider]

Umm, that’s not what the article says. It’s not 57% of EV owners saying they won’t buy another EV, it’s 57% of all car owners, right? Very different….

I'm sorry. I got that article mixed up with this one.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-excluding-tesla-few-ev-owners-would-go-ev-again/

Tesla owners are a famously loyal group. Remove them from the equation, though, and just 52.1% of electric vehicle (EV) owners buy an EV next time they go car shopping.

 

[easyrider]

Colorado outpaces California in EV market share​

https://kdvr.com/news/colorado/colorado-outpaces-california-in-ev-market-share-report/

So much for the "EVs don't work in cold environments" argument.

Kurt

I wonder what EV owners do while charging their EV in cold weather. From what I see , most EV chargers are out in the open and most gas stations have a canopy over the gas pump. From what I have read, it takes longer to charge an EV than to fill a gas tank and also the charging time increases in the cold because the chemical reaction in the battery is impacted by the cold temps.

If it's a cold & crappy day, with a little moisture and wind, charging an EV outdoors for 30 minutes seem like 25 minutes more than filling up my SUV.

Bill

 

[Chrispee]

I wonder what EV owners do while charging their EV in cold weather. From what I see , most EV chargers are out in the open and most gas stations have a canopy over the gas pump. From what I have read, it takes longer to charge an EV than to fill a gas tank and also the charging time increases in the cold because the chemical reaction in the battery is impacted by the cold temps.

If it's a cold & crappy day, with a little moisture and wind, charging an EV outdoors for 30 minutes seem like 25 minutes more than filling up my SUV.

Bill

If you're charging your car at a public charger then you probably are driving a fair distance and your battery is already at close to optimal charging temp. With a Tesla, your car will precondition the battery if you navigate to a charger.

The odd time that I charge in poor weather and don't want to get out, I sit in the car in comfort with the HVAC on watch Netflix.

 

[davidvel]

I'm sorry. I got that article mixed up with this one.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-excluding-tesla-few-ev-owners-would-go-ev-again/

Tesla owners are a famously loyal group. Remove them from the equation, though, and just 52.1% of electric vehicle (EV) owners buy an EV next time they go car shopping.

Why would you exclude Tesla when they are the cream of the crop and highest penetration EV? Sounds like stupid cherry picking to prove a false point, no?

It is like saying, "Excluding the owners of the best prices, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares." LAme.

 

[easyrider]

If you're charging your car at a public charger then you probably are driving a fair distance and your battery is already at close to optimal charging temp. With a Tesla, your car will precondition the battery if you navigate to a charger.

The odd time that I charge in poor weather and don't want to get out, I sit in the car in comfort with the HVAC on watch Netflix.

Does it seem to take longer, like twice as long maybe ?

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Why would you exclude Tesla when they are the cream of the crop and highest penetration EV? Sounds like stupid cherry picking to prove a false point, no?

It is like saying, "Excluding the owners of the best prices, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares." LAme.

KBB probably excluded Tesla because , like you said, they are the cream of the crop. I kind of thought it lame too but it does contrast the point that @HitchHiker71 made of only 1% globally wanting out of the EV market after owning an EV.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

Does it seem to take longer, like twice as long maybe ?

Bill

Climate control and entertainment consumes a fraction of the charging current.

To put it in perspective: See how much current a 47" flat screen would draw off a 50 AMP circuit and a fast charge DC is several times that 50 AMP rate.

 

[davidvel]

In the USA the number is 57% of EV owners will not have anything to do with ev's again probably because of the learning curve, inconvenience and lack of time to wait around for a charge.

Bill

I'm sorry. I got that article mixed up with this one.

Bill

Tesla owners are a famously loyal group. Remove them from the equation, though, and just 52.1% of electric vehicle (EV) owners buy an EV next time they go car shopping.

KBB probably excluded Tesla because , like you said, they are the cream of the crop. I kind of thought it lame too but it does contrast the point that @HitchHiker71 made of only 1% globally wanting out of the EV market after owning an EV.

Bill

No it doesn't contrast anything because the logic is garbage. You missed the point:

Why would you exclude Tesla when they are the cream of the crop and highest penetration EV? Sounds like stupid cherry picking to prove a false point, no?

It is like saying, "Excluding the owners of the best prices, highest rated, most favored, and best located timeshares, timeshare owners don't like their timeshares." LAme.

 

[easyrider]

Climate control and entertainment consumes a fraction of the charging current.

To put it in perspective: See how much current a 47" flat screen would draw off a 50 AMP circuit and a fast charge DC is several times that 50 AMP rate.

I was wondering about charging times in very cold weather. It looks like it could be a problem. Reading the comments at the Tesla owners forum indicate cold weather and faulty chargers may have been the problem. I bet the owners who experienced this are thinking twice about buying another EV.

Bill

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1224913698/teslas-chicago-charging-extreme-cold

Chicago area superchargers failing in cold

News story Seems like they can't handle the -15 fahrenheit temperatures. I had no problem the day before across the Wisconsin border when it was -7. Lucky I'm not traveling now. Anyone have details why they are failing?

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[easyrider]

No it doesn't contrast anything because the logic is garbage. You missed the point:

I think you missed the point David but that's ok. Here you go. The USA EV use is much different than global EV use. While there are Tesla owners globally the majority of Tesla owners live in North America and more specifically the USA. This is probably why KBB excluded Tesla from their survey.

The point being that global EV use isn't anything like the USA EV use. There really isn't any need for logic to solve this, imo. If there is spout it out, instead of using antagonistic comments as if they mean anything, lol.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

I was wondering about charging times in very cold weather. It looks like it could be a problem. Reading the comments at the Tesla owners forum indicate cold weather and faulty chargers may have been the problem. I bet the owners who experienced this are thinking twice about buying another EV.

Bill

This has NOTHING to do with sitting in your EV using the the climate control and watching a video/movie while it is charging at an ACTIVE level 3 charger

I wonder what EV owners do while charging their EV in cold weather. From what I see , most EV chargers are out in the open and most gas stations have a canopy over the gas pump. From what I have read, it takes longer to charge an EV than to fill a gas tank and also the charging time increases in the cold because the chemical reaction in the battery is impacted by the cold temps.

If it's a cold & crappy day, with a little moisture and wind, charging an EV outdoors for 30 minutes seem like 25 minutes more than filling up my SUV.

Bill

And the response was:

If you're charging your car at a public charger then you probably are driving a fair distance and your battery is already at close to optimal charging temp. With a Tesla, your car will precondition the battery if you navigate to a charger.

The odd time that I charge in poor weather and don't want to get out, I sit in the car in comfort with the HVAC on watch Netflix.

To which you responded:

Does it seem to take longer, like twice as long maybe ?

Bill

To which I replied:

Climate control and entertainment consumes a fraction of the charging current.

To put it in perspective: See how much current a 47" flat screen would draw off a 50 AMP circuit and a fast charge DC is several times that 50 AMP rate.

Please keep on track

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm sorry. I got that article mixed up with this one.

Bill

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-excluding-tesla-few-ev-owners-would-go-ev-again/

Tesla owners are a famously loyal group. Remove them from the equation, though, and just 52.1% of electric vehicle (EV) owners buy an EV next time they go car shopping.

That data comes from the S&P Global Mobility study from earlier in 2023, and most importantly, it doesn't explicitly ask any EV related questions - it simply tracks current vehicle ownership and asks what was the next vehicle purchased - therefore the data is extrapolative at best. The study I referenced explicitly polled over 23k EV owners in comparison. Even the KBB article explicitly calls out this fact:

"The numbers come from S&P Global Mobility, but a few critical caveats mean they don’t tell a simple story.

“The household data does not necessarily measure whether an EV has been replaced by another EV,” S&P explains. Many households own one EV and one gas-powered or hybrid car.

The study asks which type of car — gas or electric — Americans bought next after buying an EV. So, it risks making it look as if some 2-car households perfectly happy with their EV have now rejected driving all-electric because they may have replaced an internal combustion-powered vehicle with another one."

Details matter.

 

[emeryjre]

This group has been around a long time
Here are their 5 finalists for best EV in 2025

Best Car To Buy 2025: Green Car Reports names 5 finalists

The Chevy Equinox EV, Hyundai Kona Electric, Porsche Macan Electric, Rivian R1S, and VW ID.Buzz are the final contenders. One will be the 2025 Best Car To Buy.

www.greencarreports.com