You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[DrQ]

The point is an EV fire burns hotter and longer because of the lithium battery. It does matter how things burn in regards to the time and process to put out a fire. Some ev's are know for spontaneous combustion due to battery. Recently, all of the brand new Solos ev's were tossed in a junk yard because of a battery related fire hazard. They were just starting on fire leaving no trace of the cause.

Most vehicle fires are caused by electrical shorts. An EV is designed with many more electrical components than a regular ice type vehicle. These fires are difficult to extinguish.

Bill

In case you missed it: Half a million of ICE (gasoline powered) vehicles are being recalled due to being a fire hazard(spontaneous combust if you will):

Consumer Alert: Kia Issues 'Park Outside' Recall for Certain 2020-2024 Telluride Vehicles for Fire Risk​

Owners should park vehicles outside and away from structures until the free repair is complete

Consumer Alert: Kia Issues 'Park Outside' Recall for Certain 2020-2024 Telluride Vehicles for Fire Risk | NHTSA

Safety recall for certain 2020-2024 Telluride vehicles because front power seat motor could overheat, potentially resulting in a fire.

www.nhtsa.gov

Once your car catches fire, it's totaled. Doesn't matter if they put it out or not, it's toast. You are going to be paid fair market value if it is just a limited engine fire or it is a heap of slag. Fire of any size is like a flood, it ruins the electrical system and it is not feasible to repair.

I saw many cars on the side of the road with burned out engine comparments when they swapped out MTBE with Methanol as a fuel oxygenator. The problem was that methanol was a solvent (corrosive) on gaskets on older cars at the time and caused fuel leaks.

 

[HitchHiker71]

BEV No. Hybrid yes.

Let's talk about ev fud for a bit.

No one wants to be stuck without fuel. With ice you get a some gas. With an EV you get towed to a charger if you are lucky.

This is true driving any vehicle really. I literally have zero concerns about this as a real world BEV owner having made over a dozen road trips since becoming a Tesla BEV owner. I cannot speak to non-Tesla BEV ownership - nor would I want to really. Whenever people ask me about BEV ownership - my recommendation is to only consider a Tesla BEV - any other BEV is a very distant second place when taking into account charging infrastructure, FSD, etc.

No one likes the depreciation of an EV but a used EV buyer. That being said, most people don't want to buy a used EV unless it's almost free.

This is primarily due to the fact that over the past several years, Tesla has consistently been decreasing new vehicle pricing as their COGS have come down as manufacturing volume ramped up and efficiencies were realized. Mind you, Tesla is literally the only BEV manufacturer making profits when selling BEVs worldwide. Even the Chinese companies are government subsidy supported and aren't yet making money selling pure BEVs. BYD makes money - but that is because 50-75% of vehicles sold are PHEVs/HEVs, not BEVs.

There is maintenance on ev's. There are filters and oil as well as tires that need to be maintained at a minimum.

The gear oil is lifetime to the vehicle and doesn't need to be changed (at least on Tesla vehicles). Air filters need to be replaced and can be done DIY. Tires are tires.

No one in many areas will work on some of these ev's , especially a Tesla.

Plenty of shops will work on Tesla's - not sure where you're getting this FUD from. Tesla also has it's own service centers worldwide to provide services/maintenance.

If a Tesla is parked in a garage and starts on fire, the fire will burn hotter and longer than if it were an ice vehicle in the garage.

True - which is why BEV vehicles, according to the stats, and 25 times less likely to catch fire than ICE vehicles - I'll take those odds any day of the week.

I agree that some ev's are great products for some people. I could probably get by with an EV but my driving needs are more than to just get by.

Bill

Again, go drive one - go rent one for a week - until people actually get some real world experience, it's all just conversation debating the finer points in theory. I can say with confidence that 90% of the concerns are mostly FUD for the vast majority of drivers/consumers. Granted, BEVs aren't for everyone, but as a daily driver they are hard to beat.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The point is an EV fire burns hotter and longer because of the lithium battery. It does matter how things burn in regards to the time and process to put out a fire. Some ev's are know for spontaneous combustion due to battery. Recently, all of the brand new Solos ev's were tossed in a junk yard because of a battery related fire hazard. They were just starting on fire leaving no trace of the cause.

Most vehicle fires are caused by electrical shorts. An EV is designed with many more electrical components than a regular ice type vehicle. These fires are difficult to extinguish.

Bill

So buy an EV with a FRP battery pack - problem solved. There are many to choose from on the market today. The Tesla M3 RWD's all use FRP packs. Most of the base model BEVs today are using FRP packs - only the higher end BEVs still use NMC/NCA/NCM packs.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Have you thought about why you haven't ever ran out of gas ? It probably has something to do with plentiful gas stations.

You really can't say the same for EV charging stations. The possibility of running out of electricity for an ev is way higher than the possibility of a vehicle running out of gas.

I'm not anti EV. I wouldn't want one. I'm not sure why you think I'm a radical anti-anything. Really, I'm live and let live. If you like ev's good for you.

Bill

Let's stick to the rule and not the exception. For our daily driving, we don't EVER have to go to a gas station or a public charging station. We charge at home every night. It beats the heck out of having to hit a gas station at Costco once a week like my wife had to do before with her 2017 Honda Accord. She will never go back to a ICE vehicle (she has repeatedly said this to me over the past year). For those who can charge at home - and we've covered how easy this really is to do - you simply cannot beat the convenience of doing so when compared to any ICE vehicle. The Tesla navigation software in the vehicle automatically routes the driver to charge when needed - it's literally as easy as point and click.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Kurt, I think it depends on where you live. In my area there are 50 EV charging stations in 16 locations listed with none all that convenient to go to. There is a gas station with many pumps within every mile.

A recent study found that 16% of EV owners have run out of juice so this is definitely an issue. Like you said, you have been driving for 40 years without ever running out of gas and 99% of drivers are in the same boat. I can believe that.

If EV rental car drivers were added to the owners group my bet it's more than 16%.

Bill

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/new-study-suggests-16-of-ev-owners-have-run-out-of-juice/

Range anxiety is often seen as something of the past as many electric vehicles can now travel hundreds of miles on a single charge. However, a new study has found that 16% of EV owners have completely run out of juice.

From that article:

Again, for the vast majority of daily driving needs, you cannot beat EVs when charging at home. Since this constitutes 90-95% of miles driven, with 5-10% for outlier use cases, public charging really only comes into the picture on road trips, and the vast majority of drivers taking road trips only drive within a 150 mile radius, which doesn't require public charging during the road trip - only destination charging (which can oftentimes be free once you arrive at your destination if/when that destination has L2 chargers available). For example, we take numerous weekend getaway trips within a five hour radius - and 50% of the locations have free destination chargers. Old Town Alexandria has free chargers, Wyndham Shawnee has discounted L2 chargers, Bentley Brook has free chargers, National Harbor has discounted L2 chargers. It's a nice perk to drive to a destination and pay nothing to charge back up.

 

[HitchHiker71]

These threads all come down to the following buyer map:

I fit in the early adopter/early majority camps - we waited until 2023 to buy our first BEV - a 2023 Tesla MY LR. Others on this thread are clearly in the Laggards camp. Nothing wrong with either approach really. Consumer choice at the end of the day. Do what works best for you. I have friends who bought the first Tesla M3 back in 2018 in comparison - those to me were the Innovators that went ahead of someone like me. More power to them, but I need a bit more proof of effectiveness before taking the leap.

 

[Brett]

These threads all come down to the following buyer map:

View attachment 97944

I fit in the early adopter/early majority camps - we waited until 2023 to buy our first BEV - a 2023 Tesla MY LR. Others on this thread are clearly in the Laggards camp. Nothing wrong with either approach really. Consumer choice at the end of the day. Do what works best for you. I have friends who bought the first Tesla M3 back in 2018 in comparison - those to me were the Innovators that went ahead of someone like me. More power to them, but I need a bit more proof of effectiveness before taking the leap.

Yes, eventually all cars will be all electric. A hybrid-electric/gas car works best for my purposes (now)

The future of four wheels is all electric​

https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/articles/the-future-of-four-wheels-is-all-electric


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[dagger1]

Please show me anyone who has been "forced to buy them". I'll wait.

Kurt

The mandates

Please show me anyone who has been "forced to buy them". I'll wait.

Kurt

Good point. Should have said “….going to be forced to buy them.”

”What to Know About California's Ban on New Gasoline-Powered Cars
By 2035, California shoppers looking for new vehicles will have to buy electric.”
NY Times

Laws like these (passed in California and being considered by more than a dozen other states) are mandates. Only EV’s will be offered for new car sales. Commercial over-the-road trucks by 2045.
People in those states will (then) be “forced” to buy an EV. It will be interesting to see how California (and other EV states) handle people crossing state lines to buy ICEV’s.

 

[TUGBrian]

i think you will find that even ev owners find that sort of requirement ridiculous...and would be skeptical on how it could even happen...and if it does just one more reason to not live in california!

 

[PigsDad]

The mandates

Good point. Should have said “….going to be forced to buy them.”

”What to Know About California's Ban on New Gasoline-Powered Cars
By 2035, California shoppers looking for new vehicles will have to buy electric.”
NY Times

Laws like these (passed in California and being considered by more than a dozen other states) are mandates. Only EV’s will be offered for new car sales. Commercial over-the-road trucks by 2045.
People in those states will (then) be “forced” to buy an EV. It will be interesting to see how California (and other EV states) handle people crossing state lines to buy ICEV’s.

In 10-20 years, the EV landscape will be very different with technological advances, etc. I am very confident that most of the EV "issues" people are scared of now will be non-issues by then. As has been noted here before, EV is still in the early stages. Denying that we will be moving away from the majority of vehicles being ICE is like being an ostrich with its head in the ground.

Another example is all the FUD around when they announced incandescent bulbs were "going away", and all the bellyaching around that. With technology improvements (LED bulbs, etc.) it is a non-issue. I can still get bulbs to fit every light fixture that I had 20 years ago without a problem. But if I were to believe all those complainers 15 years ago, you would have thought the world was ending and we all would be forced to buy new fixtures or be stuck with those awful CF bulbs.

Kurt

 

[Ken555]

i think you will find that even ev owners find that sort of requirement ridiculous...and would be skeptical on how it could even happen...and if it does just one more reason to not live in california!

California has been at the forefront of environmental and economic progress for many years. Its influence has led to a cleaner environment, improved public health, and economic prosperity. California boasts the highest state economy and the fifth highest economy globally, in part due to its emphasis on climate action, individual health rights, healthcare access, higher education, research and development, and technology.

This journey towards progress began with implementing the Clean Air Act in 1963, which granted California the authority to set its own emissions standards. Subsequently, the state introduced the California ZEV (zero emissions vehicle) Program in 1990 to combat rising air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions. Initially, the program aimed to protect public health while aiding the auto industry. Over time, it has evolved to include requirements such as extended emissions warranty, reduced emissions per vehicle, and a shift towards electric cars. These regulations are projected to benefit the entire country, as the auto industry favors selling in California due to its robust economy, and it is more efficient for manufacturers to produce identical vehicles for other regions. Consequently, this has resulted in new markets and opportunities across the nation.

While the specific timeline for the transition to exclusively electric vehicles is not set in stone and may face delays, the announcement of this requirement and the gradual increase in the percentage of new electric vehicle sales will drive the shift towards electric vehicles over time. Eventually, the auto industry will find that producing vehicles with low consumer demand is less viable.

Notably, as the only state authorized to establish its emissions standards, other states can comply with federal regulations or follow California's lead. Several states, including Colorado, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington, have chosen to align with California's standards. This alignment further augments the probability of manufacturers catering to this sizable market. Unless these states switch to federal standards, the impact of this transition may be more substantial than many anticipated.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

In 10-20 years, the EV landscape will be very different with technological advances, etc. I am very confident that most of the EV "issues" people are scared of now will be non-issues by then. As has been noted here before, EV is still in the early stages. Denying that we will be moving away from the majority of vehicles being ICE is like being an ostrich with its head in the ground.

Another example is all the FUD around when they announced incandescent bulbs were "going away", and all the bellyaching around that. With technology improvements (LED bulbs, etc.) it is a non-issue. I can still get bulbs to fit every light fixture that I had 20 years ago without a problem. But if I were to believe all those complainers 15 years ago, you would have thought the world was ending and we all would be forced to buy new fixtures or be stuck with those awful CF bulbs.

Kurt

That is not today. Nor should there be any mandates requiring purchase of any sort of vehicle. Let the marketplace decide. That was what happened with EVs 120 years ago. The market place decided against them (for reasons being echoed still today.)

 

[davidvel]

i think you will find that even ev owners find that sort of requirement ridiculous...and would be skeptical on how it could even happen...and if it does just one more reason to not live in california!

And live in the swamp they call florida? No thanks. I'll pay the hefty paradise-tax all day long. I can't think of one reason I'd want to move to florida.

 

[TUGBrian]

Feel the exact same way about california!

isnt it amazing that everyone gets to choose to live where they want?

 

[HitchHiker71]

That is not today. Nor should there be any mandates requiring purchase of any sort of vehicle. Let the marketplace decide. That was what happened with EVs 120 years ago. The market place decided against them (for reasons being echoed still today.)

I agree - no mandates should be leveraged. We should adopt a monetarist approach - tax that we want to discourage and incentivize that which we want to encourage. We do this all of the time to encourage/discourage consumer choices that potentially impact our environment and other human beings around us due to our personal choices. We tax cigarettes/tobacco more and more heavily to discourage usage. If we want to discourage ICE vehicle usage, tax gasoline more, and consumers will make choices accordingly.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I agree - no mandates should be leveraged. We should adopt a monetarist approach - tax that we want to discourage and incentivize that which we want to encourage. We do this all of the time to encourage/discourage consumer choices that potentially impact our environment and other human beings around us due to our personal choices. We tax cigarettes/tobacco more and more heavily to discourage usage. If we want to discourage ICE vehicle usage, tax gasoline more, and consumers will make choices accordingly.

That's only a mandate, "second hand". Remember, electric vehicles only became popular the second time around, due to technology created and used for a totally different use (laptop computers) and then repurposed.

 

[PigsDad]

Feel the exact same way about california!

isnt it amazing that everyone gets to choose to live where they want?

Yes, I'll take paying no state income tax any day!

Kurt

 

[dagger1]

In 10-20 years, the EV landscape will be very different with technological advances, etc. I am very confident that most of the EV "issues" people are scared of now will be non-issues by then. As has been noted here before, EV is still in the early stages. Denying that we will be moving away from the majority of vehicles being ICE is like being an ostrich with its head in the ground.

Another example is all the FUD around when they announced incandescent bulbs were "going away", and all the bellyaching around that. With technology improvements (LED bulbs, etc.) it is a non-issue. I can still get bulbs to fit every light fixture that I had 20 years ago without a problem. But if I were to believe all those complainers 15 years ago, you would have thought the world was ending and we all would be forced to buy new fixtures or be stuck with those awful CF bulbs.

Kurt

So agreed that people will be forced to buy EV’s.

 

[PigsDad]

That is not today. Nor should there be any mandates requiring purchase of any sort of vehicle. Let the marketplace decide. That was what happened with EVs 120 years ago. The market place decided against them (for reasons being echoed still today.)

I'm against general mandates as well, and contrary to what others may say, there are NO mandates that force anyone to purchase a EV. And yes, let's let the market decide -- but to make it fair, let's remove all of the subsidies on both sides, and that includes the huge subsidies to our infrastructure that currently exist which promotes ICE vehicles, mainly the oil industry. Let's include the true cost to the environment related with burning fossil fuels in inefficient, small engines, storing and moving that fuel (which includes damage from spills, etc.), plus damage to our air, water systems, etc.

Of course, this will never happen. One side only complains about the subsidies that promote EVs, and the other that promote ICE.

BTW, this comes from someone who a) doesn't own an EV currently, and b) receives a non-trivial percentage of our income directly from the oil industry in the form of royalties. I can see both sides of the issue.

Kurt

 

[dagger1]

That's only a mandate, "second hand". Remember, electric vehicles only became popular the second time around, due to technology created and used for a totally different use (laptop computers) and then repurposed.

And because of massive subsidies…..

 

[dagger1]

Not “bad”. I had a Cadillac ELR back in 2014. Nice little car. Still have the charger in our garage, free with purchase including installation. Stickered for around $57K, but with incentives and tax subsidies payed around $30k.

Believe what you want, but I agree that we will be buying more advanced vehicles in the future. It seems like you are just stuck on the "EV is bad" mantra. Most of the people I know personally who are of the same mindset just believe that because their orange-haired leader thinks that way.

 

[PigsDad]

And because of massive subsidies…..

Yep, the oil industry does have massive subsidies as well as the EV industry. Glad you agree.

Kurt

 

[dagger1]

Yep, the oil industry does have massive subsidies as well as the EV industry. Glad you agree.

Kurt

And now you are telling me what I agree to….

 

[PigsDad]

And now you are telling me what I agree to….

Sorry you couldn't see the tongue-in-cheek of that post. Calling out "massive subsidies" on one side when we all know they exist on both sides is a bit funny.

Kurt

 

[dagger1]

Not name calling I would love for it not to be true, but unfortunately it is -- every poll on the subject shows this result. Please prove otherwise.

Kurt

You prove it. Provide every poll.