You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[Brett]

Trade groups say Chinese electric vehicles pose an “existential threat” to the U.S. auto industry
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/13/we-drove-chinese-evs-to-see-why-rival-automakers-are-worried.html


China currently makes about one out of every three of the world’s new vehicles, and it has the capacity to make even more, according to research firm Dunne Insights. But faced with a growing preference for hybrids at home and a brutal price war, Chinese automakers want to export more vehicles abroad

 

[x3 skier]

Trade groups say Chinese electric vehicles pose an “existential threat” to the U.S. auto industry
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/13/we-drove-chinese-evs-to-see-why-rival-automakers-are-worried.html


China currently makes about one out of every three of the world’s new vehicles, and it has the capacity to make even more, according to research firm Dunne Insights. But faced with a growing preference for hybrids at home and a brutal price war, Chinese automakers want to export more vehicles abroad

With all the "existential" threats these days, I'm glad I'm old enought to not worry about since something is going to get me sooner than later.

 

[claraj]

I did not read this whole thread, but I have some first hand experience with charging challenges since my sister and her husband leased a Lucid Air recently. They live in a condo complex in Atlanta that does not have EV charging. Their local solution is to drive to my sister's office and use the EV chargers there. BIL then Ubers one mile to his office (sister does not drive and her workday starts earlier than his). They do this a few times a week or as needed.

They made a road trip from Atlanta to NYC (where I live - Queens) and there's no available charging where I live (every time BIL checked his app the nearby chargers were in use) so they used the outlet in my garage (regular 110v) and the charging was slow as molasses. They got 4 more miles with every hour of charge, which would mean 105 hours of charging for a full charge (420 miles) ... It would take more than 4 days! My dad was like you can kill me. Needless to say, they kept the car charging for most of the time that they were here so that they would have a full charge when they started the drive back.

On the plus side, BIL said it's a lot easier to drive (because a lot of the driving is automated) and he hasn't wanted to go back to his gas car for that reason.

 

[Ken555]

I have some first hand experience with charging challenges since my sister and her husband leased a Lucid Air recently.

It seems like they purchased without fully considering the impact of needing to find charging solutions. This is a common experience, and it's one of the reasons why Tesla has become the go-to choice for fast charging solutions.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

It seems like they purchased without fully considering the impact of needing to find charging solutions. This is a common experience, and it's one of the reasons why Tesla has become the go-to choice for fast charging solutions.

Example. Where I live, there are over 20 gasoline (petrol) stations closer to me than the nearest charging station.

 

[PigsDad]

Example. Where I live, there are over 20 gasoline (petrol) stations closer to me than the nearest charging station.

Except that most people will put a charger in their own garage, so that is a misleading comparison.

Kurt

 

[HitchHiker71]

I did not read this whole thread, but I have some first hand experience with charging challenges since my sister and her husband leased a Lucid Air recently. They live in a condo complex in Atlanta that does not have EV charging. Their local solution is to drive to my sister's office and use the EV chargers there. BIL then Ubers one mile to his office (sister does not drive and her workday starts earlier than his). They do this a few times a week or as needed.

They made a road trip from Atlanta to NYC (where I live - Queens) and there's no available charging where I live (every time BIL checked his app the nearby chargers were in use) so they used the outlet in my garage (regular 110v) and the charging was slow as molasses. They got 4 more miles with every hour of charge, which would mean 105 hours of charging for a full charge (420 miles) ... It would take more than 4 days! My dad was like you can kill me. Needless to say, they kept the car charging for most of the time that they were here so that they would have a full charge when they started the drive back.

On the plus side, BIL said it's a lot easier to drive (because a lot of the driving is automated) and he hasn't wanted to go back to his gas car for that reason.

You can make BEV ownership work without home charging, but it takes more work, as your BIL/sister are finding out. IMHO I wouldn't own a BEV without having home charging available - given public charging is the most expensive method of charging as a general rule - unless you're fortunate enough to have free charging at work for example. There's no beating having your gas pump in your garage IME. Every day my wife gets home from work and plugs in her Tesla MY and it charges overnight at the cheapest off-peak electric rates via Tesla Wall Connector in our garage - and every morning the car is ready to go for daily driving. That's why there's no need to have 20 gas stations around you - because most BEV owners charge at home overnight. Public charging is only necessary when taking road trips, or for those who have no access to home chargers or local L2 chargers at their condos or apartments.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Except that most people will put a charger in their own garage, so that is a misleading comparison.

Kurt

And how much extra is that install?

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

You can make BEV ownership work without home charging, but it takes more work, as your BIL/sister are finding out. IMHO I wouldn't own a BEV without having home charging available - given public charging is the most expensive method of charging as a general rule - unless you're fortunate enough to have free charging at work for example. There's no beating having your gas pump in your garage IME. Every day my wife gets home from work and plugs in her Tesla MY and it charges overnight at the cheapest off-peak electric rates via Tesla Wall Connector in our garage - and every morning the car is ready to go for daily driving. That's why there's no need to have 20 gas stations around you - because most BEV owners charge at home overnight. Public charging is only necessary when taking road trips, or for those who have no access to home chargers or local L2 chargers at their condos or apartments.

But the uncertainty of find a functional charger available on a road trip, adds to "range anxiety".

 

[PigsDad]

And how much extra is that install?

Less than the extra maintenance needed for an ICE vehicle.

Kurt

 

[HitchHiker71]

But the uncertainty of find a functional charger available on a road trip, adds to "range anxiety".

Road trips are by definition the exception and not the rule. A recent survey showed that the average consumer only drove up to 150 miles in any one direction in one day less than one week per year, and more than 150 miles only a few days out of an entire years worth of driving. The average consumer daily drives between 25-30 miles. I've literally never had anything even remotely resembling any negative experience when using the Tesla SC network. I've literally only ever found one SC stall that had an issue in all of our travels. We only use the Tesla SC network since we own a Tesla. I am given to understanding that non-Tesla EVs have more issues in comparison. I personally wouldn't buy a non-Tesla EV at this point in time, given the lack of FSD and the lack of mature charging infrastructure outside of the Tesla ecosystem. Sure, Ford and Rivian can now use the Tesla SC network with adapters, but those adapters slow down charging sessions since they aren't liquid cooled (the Tesla SC cables are liquid cooled in comparison). If I were to consider any non-Tesla EV, it'd be a Rivian - likely an R1T to replace my 2018 RAM 1500 eventually.

 

[HitchHiker71]

And how much extra is that install?

The TWC is around $450, which you can order along with the vehicle purchase itself, plus installation costs ranging from free (DIY) to $500-1000 using a local electrician depending on the length of the run from the electrical panel to the L2 charger location. The other route to go is to use a plug-in mobile L2 charger like the Tesla mobile charger for around $250, using a NEMA 14/50 220v plug (some garages already have one - and/or they are easy to install DIY or via any local electrician), which you can order during the vehicle purchase process. Whatever is easiest for the prospective owner.

 

[Carolinian]

Trade groups say Chinese electric vehicles pose an “existential threat” to the U.S. auto industry
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/13/we-drove-chinese-evs-to-see-why-rival-automakers-are-worried.html


China currently makes about one out of every three of the world’s new vehicles, and it has the capacity to make even more, according to research firm Dunne Insights. But faced with a growing preference for hybrids at home and a brutal price war, Chinese automakers want to export more vehicles abroad

An auto industry is generally essential to a military vehicles industry from tanks on down. This is a serious challenge to the US, and pushing electric cars undermines our own auto industry.

 

[easyrider]

The TWC is around $450, which you can order along with the vehicle purchase itself, plus installation costs ranging from free (DIY) to $500-1000 using a local electrician depending on the length of the run from the electrical panel to the L2 charger location. The other route to go is to use a plug-in mobile L2 charger like the Tesla mobile charger for around $250, using a NEMA 14/50 220v plug (some garages already have one - and/or they are easy to install DIY or via any local electrician), which you can order during the vehicle purchase process. Whatever is easiest for the prospective owner.

Most homes are older than new. Home built in the 80's and before often have 100 amp service panels. Many homes built in the 90's have 100 amp service panels. The point is most homes in the USA will need to install a 200 amp service in order to install an EV charger.

To install a new panel requires the system be brought to code which requires an outside disconnect. The cost is about $5,000.

Adding DIY electrical components requires a permit.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

Most homes are older than new. Home built in the 80's and before often have 100 amp service panels. Many homes built in the 90's have 100 amp service panels. The point is most homes in the USA will need to install a 200 amp service in order to install an EV charger.

To install a new panel requires the system be brought to code which requires an outside disconnect. The cost is about $5,000.

Adding DIY electrical components requires a permit.

Bill

dont find that the case at all.

there are ev charges of all flavors and power levels, many of which plug right into a regular 110v socket available in any home.

the only reason you would need to upgrade your wiring or panel is if you were installing a very high power charger in the 50 to 80amp range as an average level 2 charger will plug right into your dryer outlet (or similar 220v / 30amp outlet) and operate fine, and noone would make a claim that "many homes in the USA need 200 amp service to install a clothes dryer"

 

[Brett]

An auto industry is generally essential to a military vehicles industry from tanks on down. This is a serious challenge to the US, and pushing electric cars undermines our own auto industry.

It's an existential threat to democracies !
(along with other things)

More than half of new cars sold in China are now electric or hybrid​

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/09/more-than-half-of-new-cars-sold-in-china-are-now-electric-or-hybrid.html#:~:text=China Economy-,More than half of new cars sold,are now electric or hybrid&text=New energy vehicles have outsold,Car Association data for July

 

[DrQ]

the only reason you would need to upgrade your wiring or panel is if you were installing a very high power charger in the 50 to 80amp range as an average level 2 charger will plug right into your dryer outlet (or similar 220v / 30amp outlet) and operate fine, and noone would make a claim that "many homes in the USA need 200 amp service to install a clothes dryer"

If you have an existing electric dryer, you can "share" it with EV charging (one at a time) by installing a transfer switch that will allow you to swap between the EV charger and the dryer on the same circuit. You can run a 30 amp dryer on a 50 amp circuit. An L2 home charger will require a 50 amp circuit/wiring for a 40 amp continuous draw during charging.

Under this set-up, you can't run both at the same time and the transfer switch prevents this.

 

[easyrider]

dont find that the case at all.

there are ev charges of all flavors and power levels, many of which plug right into a regular 110v socket available in any home.

the only reason you would need to upgrade your wiring or panel is if you were installing a very high power charger in the 50 to 80amp range as an average level 2 charger will plug right into your dryer outlet (or similar 220v / 30amp outlet) and operate fine, and noone would make a claim that "many homes in the USA need 200 amp service to install a clothes dryer"

Yes , you can trickle charge off a 15 amp breaker and let it charge overnight. Yes, you could split the dryer or range circuit to charge faster.

My point is most 100 amp service panels would need to be updated to install an EV charger and most homes in the USA have a 100 amp service because it wasn't until the 80's that the 200 amp panel became mandatory.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

Inchon, South Korea - A Mercedes EV parked in a parking garage, not running or being charged, spontaneously combusted damaging other vehicles, injuring 21 and sending 16 people, including children to the hospital.

21 injured after Mercedes EV explodes in parking lot

A Mercedes-Benz EV exploded in an underground parking lot at an apartment complex in Incheon, sending 16 people to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

Half Million ICE vehicles recalled because they may "spontaneously combust". Kia America has issued a “park outside” recall for 462,869 model year 2020-2024 Telluride vehicles because of a risk of fire while parked or driving.

Consumer Alert: Kia Issues 'Park Outside' Recall for Certain 2020-2024 Telluride Vehicles for Fire Risk | NHTSA

Safety recall for certain 2020-2024 Telluride vehicles because front power seat motor could overheat, potentially resulting in a fire.

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[DrQ]

Yes , you can trickle charge off a 15 amp breaker and let it charge overnight. Yes, you could split the dryer or range circuit to charge faster.

My point is most 100 amp service panels would need to be updated to install an EV charger and most homes in the USA have a 100 amp service because it wasn't until the 80's that the 200 amp panel became mandatory.

Bill

Most "electric" houses will have 200 Amp service. Older homes that have natural gas appliances will probably have 100 Amp service as you describe.

 

[TUGBrian]

Yes , you can trickle charge off a 15 amp breaker and let it charge overnight. Yes, you could split the dryer or range circuit to charge faster.

My point is most 100 amp service panels would need to be updated to install an EV charger and most homes in the USA have a 100 amp service because it wasn't until the 80's that the 200 amp panel became mandatory.

Bill

well i mean those statements simply dont jive...

most homes (both 100a and 200a service) have an electric dryer and every EV made I can think of is able charge off a 220v/30a dryer outlet thus the VAST majority of chargers sold utilize these outlets. ipso facto...one can factually state that most homes are able to charge an EV using a commonly available charger without changing anything regarding their wiring or breaker panel.


perhaps you meant to say that in order to install the absolutely highest power/charge rate chargers sold an older home with a 100a breaker panel would need a significant upgrade which would absolutely be true. however id imagine most people in that situation would forgo that cost in lieu of either of the far cheaper and easier options mentioned above and simply use a lower powered charger.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Road trips are by definition the exception and not the rule. A recent survey showed that the average consumer only drove up to 150 miles in any one direction in one day less than one week per year, and more than 150 miles only a few days out of an entire years worth of driving. The average consumer daily drives between 25-30 miles. I've literally never had anything even remotely resembling any negative experience when using the Tesla SC network. I've literally only ever found one SC stall that had an issue in all of our travels. We only use the Tesla SC network since we own a Tesla. I am given to understanding that non-Tesla EVs have more issues in comparison. I personally wouldn't buy a non-Tesla EV at this point in time, given the lack of FSD and the lack of mature charging infrastructure outside of the Tesla ecosystem. Sure, Ford and Rivian can now use the Tesla SC network with adapters, but those adapters slow down charging sessions since they aren't liquid cooled (the Tesla SC cables are liquid cooled in comparison). If I were to consider any non-Tesla EV, it'd be a Rivian - likely an R1T to replace my 2018 RAM 1500 eventually.

When I want to do a road trip - say I want to see my sister who is 316 miles away - I want to do a road trip. My car <must> be able to do this without stopping (once fueled), even in 105 F heat, or I won't buy it. No compromise on this, it's the base requirement. And with the limited charging available on a road trip, I would prefer to be able to double that, so i don't have to worry about the return trip.

 

[PigsDad]

When I want to do a road trip - say I want to see my sister who is 316 miles away - I want to do a road trip. My car <must> be able to do this without stopping (once fueled), even in 105 F heat, or I won't buy it. No compromise on this, it's the base requirement. And with the limited charging available on a road trip, I would prefer to be able to double that, so i don't have to worry about the return trip.

Then it sounds like you should not buy an EV at this time given the charging limitations. Given the number of sales, there are many out there who do not have your self-imposed limitations. I have yet to understand why some people make such a big fuss about the existence of EVs -- making it political even. It's just baffling.

Kurt

 

[easyrider]

well i mean those statements simply dont jive...

most homes (both 100a and 200a service) have an electric dryer and every EV made I can think of is able charge off a 220v/30a dryer outlet thus the VAST majority of chargers sold utilize these outlets. ipso facto...one can factually state that most homes are able to charge an EV using a commonly available charger without changing anything regarding their wiring or breaker panel.


perhaps you meant to say that in order to install the absolutely highest power/charge rate chargers sold an older home with a 100a breaker panel would need a significant upgrade which would absolutely be true. however id imagine most people in that situation would forgo that cost in lieu of either of the far cheaper and easier options mentioned above and simply use a lower powered charger.

I'm talking about adding an EV charger on it's own circuit to a 100 amp service. You are talking about splitting an existing circuit or plugging into a wall outlet to charge an EV on a 100 amp service.

Generally speaking, adding a 220 volt circuit to charge an EV to a 100 amp service is technically doable but it could place the service at the upper amp draw limits which is 80 amps. Even if a load calculation placed the panel at doable it doesn't make it a good idea to be close to the max, imo.

Bill

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Then it sounds like you should not buy an EV at this time given the charging limitations. Given the number of sales, there are many out there who do not have your self-imposed limitations. I have yet to understand why some people make such a big fuss about the existence of EVs -- making it political even. It's just baffling.

Kurt

I don't make a big fuss about EVs. OTOH, I don't see why such a big fuss should be made for EVs, either.