Wyndham limiting access by non-owners during most sought-after dates/locations

[Lisa P]

Again, they’re are limiting owners the full right to let others use their shared interest based on what they own. Wyndham owners have the full RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. Thats a basic right of owning any type of real property unless there’s a special restriction in your deed that says otherwise which there isn’t.

Actually, not always, as HOAs often have the legal ability to make changes to bylaws. It is the HOA's duty to enact and enforce rules which enhance the enjoyment and protect the value of the neighborhood for the owners.

We live in a full-ownership condo ("shared property") in a popular vacation area. The deed said/says nothing about a restriction on owners being able to rent it out, nor did the original bylaws by the developer. Within a few years of sell-out of the community, there were renters in 26% of the units and it impacted the owner-occupants' enjoyment of neighborhood life. It also threatened the future value of their investment. So the HOA voted to amend the bylaws and restrict renting out units to just 5% of the total units, and only by owners who had previously occupied their unit for a minimum of 2 years. Existing renting families were grandfathered and able to stay and continue to renew their leases. But by 1 year after the vote, no units could be rented out to a new renter until the percentage of units being occupied by a non-family member of the owner had dropped below 5%. By that time, all leases and lease renewals had to be for a period of 1 year or longer. Owner-investors tried to sue the HOA and found they had no legal standing.

When we became empty-nesters, we downsized from a 4BR house to our 2BR condo (and got rid of our mortgage ). We only considered communities which had this rental restriction in the bylaws. We very much enjoy our stable neighborhood and our wonderful neighbors, partly because the HOA has done its job well. "Full rights" of individual owners in a shared interest are not necessarily the same as how you've described them in your post above.

 

[dgalati]

The problem with trying to make owners happy is that in making one class of owners happy, they honk off another class of owners. Maybe that's what Wyndham wants. Make large owners unhappy so they will bail out and give points back through Ovations (insert latest program name here).

Ovations the gift that keeps giving (back to Wyndham). Sell high buy low with a continuous flow of free inventory. Its a business model most companies could only dream of. Car dealerships are close to the same business model but they actually have to buy their used inventory. Even at a bank auction there's value in the resale car inventory. Unlike a resale timeshare which the developer sets a fair price of $0.

 

[CO skier]

Ovations the gift that keeps giving (back to Wyndham). Sell high buy low with a continuous flow of free inventory. Its a business model most companies could only dream of.

At least compare apple to apples. How many timeshare developers offer a "buy-back" at any value, unlike a used car dealership that offers something for used cars? How many timeshare developers even offer any kind of "buyback" or "turn-in" at no cost?

How many people have to pay thousands to offload their used car? At worst, they could scrap it for a few hundred dollars at any wrecking yard.

Ovation is just the "scrapping yard" for owners who are done. Better than most timeshares that have no way of "scrapping" a no longer needed timeshare, other than to default on the mortgage and/or maintenance fees.

 

[Jan M.]

At least compare apple to apples. How many timeshare developers offer a "buy-back" at any value, unlike a used car dealership that offers something for used cars? How many timeshare developers even offer any kind of "buyback" or "turn-in" at no cost?

How many people have to pay thousands to offload their used car? At worst, they could scrap it for a few hundred dollars at any wrecking yard.

Ovation is just the "scrapping yard" for owners who are done. Better than most timeshares that have no way of "scrapping" a no longer needed timeshare, other than to default on the mortgage and/or maintenance fees.

I've seen posts from people talking about their resort, not a Wyndham resort. That the resort will take back your week back if you pay $2000-$5000. I thought some said you also had to pay the next year's maintenance fees.

I agree that Certified Exit, I think that's what they renamed Ovations, can be an excellent solution for many Wyndham owners. It sure beats being bilked for thousands of dollars by some company promising they can sell your timeshare.

 

[dgalati]

At least compare apple to apples. How many timeshare developers offer a "buy-back" at any value, unlike a used car dealership that offers something for used cars? How many timeshare developers even offer any kind of "buyback" or "turn-in" at no cost?

How many people have to pay thousands to offload their used car? At worst, they could scrap it for a few hundred dollars at any wrecking yard.

Ovation is just the "scrapping yard" for owners who are done. Better than most timeshares that have no way of "scrapping" a no longer needed timeshare, other than to default on the mortgage and/or maintenance fees.

I get it. I'm just stating the facts that a used car has more value. The burden of paying maintenance fees is what helps Wyndham set the resale value at $0/1000.

 

[LDBEH]

Wow - miss a week and miss a lot! As an owner who rents several units each year, this is an added hoop to jump through, but I do see it, as mentioned earlier, in the best interest of all/majority members. Wyndham has many jobs, but the main two are to keep owners happy and fill as many rooms with them as possible - and to keep shareholders happy and defend the bottom line.

My question is for an overlapping reservation of the dates mentioned. Can you have an guest certificate on a week that extends into the restricted time periods? What if I had a reservation for a family member from June 20-27 at Bonnet Creek - would this be a reservation that was subject to cancellation? Only the last two nights fall into the restricted time frame...so what does that mean for my cousin and his family. I obviously did not see this in time to get the guest confirmation into his name. Guess I will call to find out.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Wow - miss a week and miss a lot! As an owner who rents several units each year, this is an added hoop to jump through, but I do see it, as mentioned earlier, in the best interest of all/majority members. Wyndham has many jobs, but the main two are to keep owners happy and fill as many rooms with them as possible - and to keep shareholders happy and defend the bottom line.

My question is for an overlapping reservation of the dates mentioned. Can you have an guest certificate on a week that extends into the restricted time periods? What if I had a reservation for a family member from June 20-27 at Bonnet Creek - would this be a reservation that was subject to cancellation? Only the last two nights fall into the restricted time frame...so what does that mean for my cousin and his family. I obviously did not see this in time to get the guest confirmation into his name. Guess I will call to find out.

Earlier I told Richelle I'd post a list of all the questions/concerns/clarifications requested that I (as well as reviewing other comments here on TUG) had and she had someone she would try to run it by. Thanks for the reminder to get this done. Here's my list for you @Richelle (my questions, tried to capture other comments in this thread but stopped when things seemed to get too 'out there' for this topic):

*Please define 'subject to cancelation'.
- Will 100% of all reservations at the list resorts/dates be canceled for the remainder of year when a guest confirmation is added or will some reservations be honored?
- Will the cancelation happen immediately when the guest confirmation is added, is it automatic, or is it a manual process?
- If it doesn't happen immediately, is the reservation 'safe' or is it subject to cancelation up until the day of checkin?
*Regarding reservations with a partial number of nights in the blackout period. What happens if a reservation extends into or out of a blackout period? For example, what if I have booked Jun 20-27 for my cousin but haven't yet put the guest certificate on their reservation. Only the last 2 nights are in the blackout period. Will the entire reservation be subject to cancellation when I add my cousin as the guest?
*Are you making one-off exceptions to this policy? If so, please advise what kind of rules/exceptions we can expect to be followed and whom we should call for an exception? If and exception is granted, how will that be notated on the reservation?
* What if I have an existing reservation not in the blackout period, add a guest, and later add a night that then causes the entire reservation to extend into the blackout period. Does it now become 'subject to cancellation'?
* How does Travel and Leasure fit in? They have access and do list some Club Wyndham properties on their vacation package searches

* General comments.
- Extremely poor implementation. Announce 4 hours before it went into effect. Some lead time would have been appreciated. Will this continue to 2022? We need to know asap as people do plan in advance and this affects our planning (and for sure messed up some people in 2021)
- Not everyone got the email. The information is buried on the website. More visibility was needed. Communication failure, big time.
- Message about blackouts and cancellations is now on EVERY confirmation, owner or guest, for a resort that has some blackout dates. What a shame to alarm someone with an unaffected reservation of policy that does not affect them.
- I like the idea it will encourage use of other resorts and/or lower volume dates.
- Encouraged it appears Extra Holidays is following the same rules. Super important for all of us to see that commitment from Wyndham.
- Would be interesting to hear the why's of what resorts we picked, and why some many of us expected to be included were not
- Many owners have expressed and interest in some type of friends and family list. Is Wyndham considering anything in that area. Would have alleviated some of the major adverse affects for owners using their timeshare for friends and family. (Devil's advocate though, why is allowing friends and family okay but not renters - neither are paying maintenance fees or have skin in the game (purchase points/long-term commitment)
- Noting concerns by some that Wyndham needs to respect an owners RIGHT to allow others to use their shared interest. What say did the legal team have on this?
- It's been mentioned it would be nice if the system would alert us when booking or when a guest confirmation, the reservation may be canceled. Would be great if the system wouldn't let us add a guest confirmation and we could choose whether or not we want to cancel
- Most importantly - some advanced notice and transparency would have been greatly appreciated

If you can get some answers, especially to how it's going to be implemented aspects, they will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[Sandi Bo]

Koala has an article about Wyndham's new guest policy. There's nothing particularly useful.

What Wyndham’s Guest Policy Changes Mean For You | KOALA

Yesterday, all Club Wyndham owners received a notice abridging their guest certificate rights on holidays at certain resorts. Here's what that means for you.

www.go-koala.com

First of all - not ALL owners got the notification. Secondly, too bad it makes no mention of it being temporary, etc. Seems like it likely caused more harm than good, IMO, but just guessing. I'm not a member of Koala.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I don't recall seeing in this thread the exact verbage of the limit on guest reservations. This screenshot was from a reservation we just made at Bonnet creek. It's found in the small print of the reservation confirmation. We never received any email from Wyndham regarding this new "temporary" policy.

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Too bad it is on ALL Bonnet Creek reservations, owners and guests, affected and non-affected dates :-(

But already a pet peave of mine, these confirmations aren't the best. I also have the following on all of of my confirmations (owner or guest) and I am not PR.

 

[chapjim]

It is true some see it as a benefit, but those who watched what happened when cancel rebook went away, know it’s not a benefit unless it’s in writing. The main difference between the two, is the sales guys were promoting cancel rebook as a benefit. They are not promoting buying resale. Resale is a bad word to them. They ingrained that into their head. In the timeshare sales world, The number one rule about the resale market is, you don’t talk about the resale market. So if a sales person did start talking about the resale market, it would get nipped in the bud pretty quick. If we didn’t have mega renters, VIP benefits being used with resale points wouldn’t be an issue.

You already know my story. How most of my points are used on family vacations. We book large rooms far out. No discounts and little to no chance of upgrades. I have 700k that count as retail. My discounted and upgraded reservations don’t total more then that on a normal year., even when I really try. 700k during the standard window Could get me a week (or less) to 8 or 9 weeks. In the discount window, with free upgrades, I can easily double that and I’m only Gold. I like to think I’m pretty savvy on how I use my points. Maybe a little bit more then your average bear. If I’m not getting much more then that, then probably at least half the other VIP base that has resale are not getting enough discounted or upgradable reservations that total more then their retail points. So why punish the entire VIP base for one group of owners?

It may sound simple to separate resale and retail by setting a flag, but that’s only one step. You have a ton of rules that you have to set up on the system. What points get burned off first? What happens if you have to use a mix of resale and retail to book a reservation. Is it still eligible for the discount? Is it eligible for an upgrade? Can you use a mix of both resale and retail in the RARP window? Do you have two separate deadlines for moving points forward? Can you use those extra free GC of a reservation made with resale points? If not, what happens if you have both a mix or resale and retail? Which guest certificates get burned off first? The two that can be used for any reservation or the three that are eligible? Ok so the ones that are made with resale can only the two GC. What happens when you run out of the two resale and are have three, are you supposed to pay for more? Talk about confusing the owner. It’s a mammoth undertaking that would also require educating the owner. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m not even saying it will never happen. It very well could. If Wyndham finds they can do it in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, and the benefits are work the risk, they will. However, in order for them to go through all that trouble, they have to ask themselves. Is it a big enough problem to go through all this? If it is a big problem, is there a cheaper and cleaner way to address it. I’m thinking the guest certificate policies over major holidays may be a start. Target the guest certificates and it keeps renters from picking up prime weeks. Let the people offsetting their maintenance fees offer their points up for rental instead of holding a reservation for months in hopes of renting it when someone else could book it and use it for themselves.


This is your one for the week. I will acknowledge your broken record/minced horse meat comments once a week. If you want more banter from me, come up with something original. If I ignore one of your comments, it’s because you already used up your one for the week.

Edit: once here, and if I’m feeling generous, once on Facebook to.


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Only one comment about this post. I think you have the following statement backwards.

"If we didn’t have mega renters, VIP benefits being used with resale points wouldn’t be an issue."

 

[chapjim]

I have two reservations at Skyline Tower, booked back in January for a guest, but still in my name. Dates are June 19-26.

From the Letter:
Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)

• Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
• Club Wyndham Midtown 45
• Club Wyndham Desert Blue
• Club Wyndham Austin
• Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
• Club Wyndham La Cascada
• Club Wyndham Park City

From OP's List:
Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)

• Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
• Club Wyndham Skyline Tower
• Club Wyndham Midtown 45
• Club Wyndham Desert Blue
• Club Wyndham Austin
• Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
• Club Wyndham La Cascada
• Club Wyndham Park City

OP's list came from the web site but I don't see Skyline Tower on the website's list now. So it would appear that I'll be able to to add the guests' names when the time comes.

Also, Wyndham can subtract from the list. Should we infer that Wyndham can add to the list as well?

 

[HitchHiker71]

I have two reservations at Skyline Tower, booked back in January for a guest, but still in my name. Dates are June 19-26.

From the Letter:
Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)

• Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
• Club Wyndham Midtown 45
• Club Wyndham Desert Blue
• Club Wyndham Austin
• Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
• Club Wyndham La Cascada
• Club Wyndham Park City

From OP's List:
Independence Day (June 25 – July 9)

• Club Wyndham Bonnet Creek
• Club Wyndham Skyline Tower
• Club Wyndham Midtown 45
• Club Wyndham Desert Blue
• Club Wyndham Austin
• Club Wyndham Riverside Suites
• Club Wyndham La Cascada
• Club Wyndham Park City

OP's list came from the web site but I don't see Skyline Tower on the website's list now. So it would appear that I'll be able to to add the guests' names when the time comes.

Also, Wyndham can subtract from the list. Should we infer that Wyndham can add to the list as well?

Any/all programs are subject to change without notice and at the sole discretion of Wyndham.


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[chapjim]

Any/all programs are subject to change without notice and at the sole discretion of Wyndham.


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Owner's here were pretty upset at the lack of notice. Imagine if Wyndham starts adding resorts!

 

[dgalati]

Owner's here were pretty upset at the lack of notice. Imagine if Wyndham starts adding resorts!

You have this statement wrong. The only owners that are upset are the owners that rent. Lack of notice or adding resorts to the list makes no difference to a owner that uses a reservation for personal use.

 

[dgalati]

Any/all programs are subject to change without notice and at the sole discretion of Wyndham.


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Owners that have owned for the last several years sould know this. This is especially true knowing Wyndham has put a priority on eliminating the mega-renter.

 

[tschwa2]

You have this statement wrong. The only owners that are upset are the owners that rent. Lack of notice or adding resorts to the list makes no difference to a owner that uses a reservation for personal use.

Owners who book for family member are also upset. Sometimes bringing extended family requires more units than owners on the contract. My husband can't get as much vacation time as I can during holiday periods so that means if I need a second unit for friends or family I leave the second unit in his name even though I know he isn't coming until later because non timeshare owning family getting a free vacation flake out sometimes or plans change.

 

[dgalati]

Owners who book for family member are also upset. Sometimes bringing extended family requires more units than owners on the contract. My husband can't get as much vacation time as I can during holiday periods so that means if I need a second unit for friends or family I leave the second unit in his name even though I know he isn't coming until later because non timeshare owning family getting a free vacation flake out sometimes or plans change.

GC's were intended for family and friends. Somewhere along the way they became abused for rentals to cover maintenance fees. The GC's being eliminated during busy times should help more owners booking for personal use then it hurts. The elimination of GC's used with resale points along with VIP discounts and upgrades should also help owners booking for personal use. Wyndham is taking back inventory that is being abused by a few just like cancel and book was. IMHO squeezing out the owners renting is better for owners that book for personal use.

 

[paxsarah]

The GC's being eliminated during busy times should help more owners booking for personal use then it hurts.

Maybe the question to ask is does it hurt more owners planning personal extended family vacations (requiring a GC either because of multiple units or gifted trips) than it does renters? I don't know if it does or not, but to pretend those owners don't exist is a little oversimplified.

 

[chapjim]

Maybe the question to ask is does it hurt more owners planning personal extended family vacations (requiring a GC either because of multiple units or gifted trips) than it does renters? I don't know if it does or not, but to pretend those owners don't exist is a little oversimplified.

I don't know what the other side of the conversation is. Well, I probably do. He only knows one thing but he says it a lot.

As one who offers rentals, this latest from Wyndham doesn't bother me at all. Most of my reservations are made inside the two month discount/upgrade window and if these resorts are so busy that occupancy by non-owners must be restricted, there isn't going to be anything available for me two months out.

If the resorts are not that busy, Wyndham will have shot itself in the foot because there will be a lot of empty units.

Edit: I should add that I have no advantage over the smaller owner up to two months before check-in. We can both book at full price either thirteen or ten months months before check-in. I have a price advantage inside two months but that still doesn't take away anything from him. If I book it before he does, it's not available for him. If he books it before I do, it's not available for me.

For the most part, I'm booking reservations that no one wanted or reservations that fall out of the bottom because of cancellations or upgrades. And by rule, I can only book two reservations for the same time period -- one in my wife's name, one in mine. Totally different than wiping out an entire resort the first day a reservation can be made.

 

[dgalati]

Maybe the question to ask is does it hurt more owners planning personal extended family vacations (requiring a GC either because of multiple units or gifted trips) than it does renters? I don't know if it does or not, but to pretend those owners don't exist is a little oversimplified.

The question Wyndham is tring to solve is availability during high demand seasons or times. Eliminating GC's will free up availability for owner's to use personally. If I needed a reservation with GC's during restricted times I would have to schedule a different resort or at another time. Its called taking one for the team. Wyndham is tring to help the majority of owners to book for their personal use. Maybe Wyndham really cares?

 

[Cyrus24]

Wyndham is tring to help the majority of owners to book for their personal use. Maybe Wyndham really cares?

I book ONLY for personal use. To stay myself or, most recently, to rent. I never rented out units until just recently as I have ended up with too many points being left from trips having been cancelled due to COVID. I've gotten to know a new group of people who love to travel but are on a limited budget. It pleases me to get someone a really good deal at a really nice resort while I cover my MF's. Whether I stay or help someone else travel, the booking is for my personal use. Like Chapjim, I'm generally getting deals available inside the discount period at resorts that are not on the blackout list. I did, however, test the blackout stuff this morning by booking a blackout list resort and assigning a GC......for my sister. I can only hope that, if cancellation occurs, it happens sooner rather than later.

 

[dgalati]

I book ONLY for personal use. To stay myself or, most recently, to rent. I never rented out units until just recently as I have ended up with too many points being left from trips having been cancelled due to COVID. I've gotten to know a new group of people who love to travel but are on a limited budget. It pleases me to get someone a really good deal at a really nice resort while I cover my MF's. Whether I stay or help someone else travel, the booking is for my personal use. Like Chapjim, I'm generally getting deals available inside the discount period at resorts that are not on the blackout list. I did, however, test the blackout stuff this morning by booking a blackout list resort and assigning a GC......for my sister. I can only hope that, if cancellation occurs, it happens sooner rather than later.

Are you using resale points with the VIP discounts and upgrades?

 

[Cyrus24]

Are you using resale points with the VIP discounts and upgrades?

14% of my total points are resale.

 

[dgalati]

Edit: I should add that I have no advantage over the smaller owner up to two months before check-in. We can both book at full price either thirteen or ten months months before check-in. I have a price advantage inside two months but that still doesn't take away anything from him. If I book it before he does, it's not available for him. If he books it before I do, it's not available for him.

For the most part, I'm booking reservations that no one wanted or reservations that fall out of the bottom because of cancellations or upgrades. And by rule, I can only book two reservations for the same time period -- one in my wife's name, one in mine. Totally different than wiping out an entire resort the first day a reservation can be made.

I remember the mega renters justifying their abuse this same way. Its the rentals that Wyndham is trying to limit which will help owners that are looking to book for personal use.

 

[paxsarah]

Its the rentals that Wyndham is trying to limit which will help [certain] owners [while inconveniencing others] that are looking to book for personal use.

Fixed it.