Wyndham limiting access by non-owners during most sought-after dates/locations

[rickandcindy23]

FYI, Marriott's Destination Club points system does have discounts, based on membership status. For Presidential and Chairman's Club members it's 30% at the 60-day window, for Executive members it's 25% at the 30-day window.

Whoa! I didn't know that and am excited to find that out! Thank you!

 

[rickandcindy23]

The wait list feature for Worldmark is fantastic.

Yes, it is. It works very well.

 

[wjappraise]

The cost of the overlapping stay is more a nuisance tax than any kind of "penalty" if it protects more than a dozen guest rentals at a time.

I thought the nightly limit was ten units. How could one have a dozen guest rentals and an owner room as well?

Or do you know something about the nightly limit the rest of us don’t?

Wes.

 

[CO skier]

I am sure Wyndham doesn't want someone who paid a few thousand dollars for a 1 mill contract to have the same benefits as someone who paid over $100,000... With all the chipping away of benefits for those platinum owners its looking more like they are treated the same..

So many owners, especially VIPs, do not understand that Wyndham is not a monolith -- there are departmental "silos" (as one TUG member described the concept when automatic upgrades were introduced) in many corporations.

The job of the Operations Silo is to ensure that all Club Wyndham owners receive the benefits they are entitled to. Putting more owners on vacation is their job. Putting non-owners on vacation is not their job. With the advent of online booking engines for Club Wyndham reservations, non-owners can easily receive the same benefits as an owner. If an owner priority policy comes at the expense of non-owners (including, as a unavoidable consequence, non-owner friends and family of the owner), Wyndham has no responsibility to non-owners. It could also be suggested that Wyndham has no responsibility to owners violating a no commercial use rule.

The job of the Marketing Silo is to sign-up any warm body that checks-in. Their credit rating, how many updates they have attended whenever, resale buyer who will never buy retail -- none of it matters to their mission objective.

The Sales Silo will weave whatever tales it takes to make a sale. It might even be true at the time, but they definitely fail to mention that "rules are subject to change."

So the Sales Silo "doesn't want someone who paid a few thousand dollars for a 1 mill contract to have the same benefits as someone who paid over $100,000... " and they may not care after the recission period has passed, but the Operations Silo has no obligation to follow-through on whatever true-at-the-time or untrue promises were made by the Sales Silo.

 

[CO skier]

I thought the nightly limit was ten units. How could one have a dozen guest rentals and an owner room as well?

Or do you know something about the nightly limit the rest of us don’t?

Wes.

I was just thinking, back on page 14 of this thread, like a megarenter trying to preserve my business. I have no experience with the practicality, but it does point out the potential for abuse. And anyone knows if you give a megarenter an inch, they will take a light-year.

One, strategic two-day owner reservation that overlaps the last day of 9 guest reservations by one day with the second day that overlaps the first day of 9 other guest reservations is 9+1 = 10 (the limit) and 1+9 = 10 (the limit). 9 + 9 = 18 guest reservations protected -- qed, "more than a dozen" guest reservations loophole-protected by one owner reservation.

The strangely complicated policy of unlimited guest confirmations if as little as one night overlaps must have been an accommodation for the family reunion scenario. It does open the loophole of a renter booking 9 guest reservations plus one reservation that overlaps at least one night, and there is no requirement the owner shows-up for their reservation. Book 9 guest reservations for Christmas week and 9 reservations for New Year's, then book one owner reservation for two nights that overlap both sets of reservations -- the last date of the first nine and the first date of the second nine. This is just to point out how much the policy can be abused, not that anyone would actually do it.

 

[wjappraise]

I was just thinking, back on page 14 of this thread, like a megarenter trying to preserve my business. I have no experience with the practicality, but it does point out the potential for abuse. And anyone knows if you give a megarenter an inch, they will take a light-year.

One, strategic two-day reservation that overlaps the last day of 9 guest reservations by one day with the second day that overlaps the first day of 9 other reservations is 9+1 = 10 (the limit) and 1+9 = 10 (the limit). 9 + 9 = 18 guest reservations protected -- qed, "more than a dozen" guest reservations by one owner reservation.

Well played Sir.

You would have been a stellar mega renter.

Wes.

 

[wjappraise]

Do you think all owners are grizzled?.

Oh yes. Especially you and me Dom.

 

[CO skier]

Fifty-three resorts are on the restricted list, not "a very few." At least eight holiday or event periods are affected. For some resorts, every weekend July-October is restricted. For sure there are lots of open periods at other resorts but it is not accurate to say very few timeframes are affected.

I was thinking relatively.

Compared to blacking-out all resorts for the entire summer (if Wyndham wants to do something truly impactful), the current list and dates qualify as "very few."

 

[CO skier]

Well played Sir.

You would have been a stellar mega renter.

Wes.

There is no reason to be insulting.

 

[CO skier]

Let me just say that Wyndham was on the right track in March with the restrictions. Then they got feedback, presumably how the March rules affected family reunions. So when they expanded the program, they tried to be inclusive of family reunions, but did not have the knowledge and usage of "high order" (megarenters and others) owners. Wyndham management went only as far as the "average owner" or "typical owner" in their thinking and, with a lack of full knowledge of how the system can be "worked," opened a significant "workaround" to the March rules.

If a panel of knowledgeable owners (exemplified in this thread, on all sides, for example) could have somehow been assembled to do nothing but comment and critique (and in no way set policy), Wyndham could have saved many hundreds of wasted man-hours and some embarassment when the ill-considered, one-night overlap policy is dispensed. (Hopefully).

I mean, really, it took me less than 10 minutes to see the flaws in the one-night overlap policy. For someone who has little experience as an owner, and thinks no further than "let's include family reunions" the policy makes sense. But that is someone who should not be setting such far-reaching Club policies.

 

[dgalati]

I was just thinking, back on page 14 of this thread, like a megarenter trying to preserve my business. I have no experience with the practicality, but it does point out the potential for abuse. And anyone knows if you give a megarenter an inch, they will take a light-year.

One, strategic two-day owner reservation that overlaps the last day of 9 guest reservations by one day with the second day that overlaps the first day of 9 other guest reservations is 9+1 = 10 (the limit) and 1+9 = 10 (the limit). 9 + 9 = 18 guest reservations protected -- qed, "more than a dozen" guest reservations loophole-protected by one owner reservation.

Is it really a loophole when you are playing within their rules? Asking for all my VIP friends.

 

[wjappraise]

Is it really a loophole when you are playing within their rules? Asking for all my VIP friends.

The real test will be if sales tells us how to use it ... and then says they guarantee it will work ... if we just buy more points.

 

[Jan M.]

The website is still saying: "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates." Owners trying to twist what they're reading or interpret it to their advantage may be in for a big shock when the system cancels their reservations. We know that reservations may not be and don't have to be cancelled by Wyndham within a certain time frame. Some of you may have experienced having the system cancel a reservation, some when it shouldn't have. You might get lucky if there's still availability at the resort but if there isn't neither the reps nor owner care will be able to help you. I'd be thinking long and hard about what you're going to do when your renter shows up to check in and is told they don't have a reservation.

With these black out lists it's foolish for owners who rent to try to game the system. Maybe other people don't see this as Wyndham gunning for owners who rent but I do. Wyndham may not in fact actually be going after everyone who rents but that doesn't mean they won't be collateral damage. I'm of the opinion that Wyndham is okay with that. Think about it. Did the owners who most of you consider the mega renters start out as mega renters? No they started small, realized it was profitable and built their business.

One last word of caution. I've seen some of you insisting that you aren't a mega renter, that you're just the little guy. You can be on Wyndham's list of mega renters even if you only have 1.5-3 million points.

 

[ilya]

Extraholidays advertises their inventory on those external sites such as travelocity etc. if you see it there- it’s from Wyndham.

A few years back I was at A resort in Tennessee and overheard management and sales talk about a multi billion dollar investment Wyndham was undertaking to get rid of renters.. They said they were in the works with buying up all the rental companies.. Trip adviser, travelocity, Expedia, VRBO..etc... What I was surprised at is they also included Redweek..

At another time I was looking for a rental and came upon one thru one of those site and there was a "TRIP??? by Wyndham... I called and got a Wyndham employee and they said it was a pilot program... Don't remember the full name...So, they are constantly trying to find new ways to rent..

Either way I am able to find what I want but I also paid $$ for that. It would bother me if an all resale contracts will have the same benefits as I do in the long term...Maybe this is why they are using RFR more now..

 

[dioxide45]

Does it seem like this change is aimed at knocking out Koala, the same as the last big change was aimed at points managers, basically at businesses that make their business to rent out owner inventory.

I think KOALA has been a little to lenient with their owners on adding guest certificates. IMO if a reservation is strict (non refundable), then the guest certificate should be added at time of booking. Any reservation where the cancellation window had passed, should have had a guest certificate added when that cancellation window passed. This practice of letting owners add guest names at 15 days didn't make sense. I guess it is good for the owners, but if something is no longer cancellable and the owner is guaranteed their money, then they should add the guest name.

I do think some additional cancellation terms should be available. Like a $150 cancellation penalty if cancelled after time of booking. This can then cover the cost of the guest certificate and should require the owner to add the guest certificate at time of booking.

This of course wouldn't have prevented the current policy changes, but probably would have prevented a lot of problems, lost time and reputation for for everyone involved.

 

[Eric B]

Any reservation where the cancellation window had passed, should have had a guest certificate added when that cancellation window passed. This practice of letting owners add guest names at 15 days didn't make sense.

Actually, the cancellation window for an owner cancelling a reservation and getting their points back ends at 15 days. After that, unless they had point protection (which has been an on again/off again option) they would lose the points if they cancelled the reservation or have to try to rent the reservation to someone else/use it themselves. Given the limited number of free guest certificates annually and the cost of additional ones, allowing owners to wait until the 15 day point before using one made a good deal of sense to me because that was the "point of no return" for the reservation. I believe Koala also allows setting the cancellation policy for renters at 16 days.

 

[dioxide45]

Actually, the cancellation window for an owner cancelling a reservation and getting their points back ends at 15 days. After that, unless they had point protection (which has been an on again/off again option) they would lose the points if they cancelled the reservation or have to try to rent the reservation to someone else/use it themselves. Given the limited number of free guest certificates annually and the cost of additional ones, allowing owners to wait until the 15 day point before using one made a good deal of sense to me because that was the "point of no return" for the reservation. I believe Koala also allows setting the cancellation policy for renters at 16 days.

It does allow for the cancellation policy of 16 days. However most of the listings I see on their site for Wyndham properties have strict cancellation policies. I understand why they went with the policy of allowing guest certificates being added at day 15, but if a reservation is non cancellable with no refund, then the owner should have been forced to add the guest certificate. I have seen a number of people upset that their reservations were cancelled. This wouldn't have happened if the owner added the guest certificate at the time of booking for what is in most cases a non refundable reservation.

 

[Eric B]

It does allow for the cancellation policy of 16 days. However most of the listings I see on their site for Wyndham properties have strict cancellation policies. I understand why they went with the policy of allowing guest certificates being added at day 15, but if a reservation is non cancellable with no refund, then the owner should have been forced to add the guest certificate. I have seen a number of people upset that their reservations were cancelled. This wouldn't have happened if the owner added the guest certificate at the time of booking for what is in most cases a non refundable reservation.

The strict cancellation policy use could be the result of folks trying to rent out reservations close to the deadline for depositing points into a future year in order to avoid being squeezed by that deadline for using the points they get back by cancelling. There are probably also a number of inexperienced folks trying to rent out the excess points they have due to the last year of light or no travel, not realizing that they are setting up incentives for guests to cancel now and seek a rental with less strict cancellation policies.

 

[dioxide45]

The strict cancellation policy use could be the result of folks trying to rent out reservations close to the deadline for depositing points into a future year in order to avoid being squeezed by that deadline for using the points they get back by cancelling. There are probably also a number of inexperienced folks trying to rent out the excess points they have due to the last year of light or no travel, not realizing that they are setting up incentives for guests to cancel now and seek a rental with less strict cancellation policies.

Again though, if a reservation is non cancellable, I don't understand why they would allow for guest certificates to be added at day 15. I see plenty of reservations out there for October that are Strict cancellation policy. The issue isn't more about owners, but preventing future issues if Wyndham expands the blackout dates or resorts or even expands it into 2022. Having to accomodate or refund a lot of reservations doesn't bode well, especially if a guest has already made other travel plans and reservations (like air).

 

[Eric B]

Markets would be so much more efficient if the participants in them were all rational....

 

[chapjim]

The website is still saying: "You can travel with your guests to these resorts during the dates listed below and may use two guest confirmations during the restricted dates." Owners trying to twist what they're reading or interpret it to their advantage may be in for a big shock when the system cancels their reservations. We know that reservations may not be and don't have to be cancelled by Wyndham within a certain time frame. Some of you may have experienced having the system cancel a reservation, some when it shouldn't have. You might get lucky if there's still availability at the resort but if there isn't neither the reps nor owner care will be able to help you. I'd be thinking long and hard about what you're going to do when your renter shows up to check in and is told they don't have a reservation.

With these black out lists it's foolish for owners who rent to try to game the system. Maybe other people don't see this as Wyndham gunning for owners who rent but I do. Wyndham may not in fact actually be going after everyone who rents but that doesn't mean they won't be collateral damage. I'm of the opinion that Wyndham is okay with that. Think about it. Did the owners who most of you consider the mega renters start out as mega renters? No they started small, realized it was profitable and built their business.

One last word of caution. I've seen some of you insisting that you aren't a mega renter, that you're just the little guy. You can be on Wyndham's list of mega renters even if you only have 1.5-3 million points.

Is there nothing between "little guy" and "mega-renter?"

Do we know how Wyndham defines "mega-renter?"

 

[chapjim]

I think KOALA has been a little to lenient with their owners on adding guest certificates. IMO if a reservation is strict (non refundable), then the guest certificate should be added at time of booking. Any reservation where the cancellation window had passed, should have had a guest certificate added when that cancellation window passed. This practice of letting owners add guest names at 15 days didn't make sense. I guess it is good for the owners, but if something is no longer cancellable and the owner is guaranteed their money, then they should add the guest name.

I do think some additional cancellation terms should be available. Like a $150 cancellation penalty if cancelled after time of booking. This can then cover the cost of the guest certificate and should require the owner to add the guest certificate at time of booking.

This of course wouldn't have prevented the current policy changes, but probably would have prevented a lot of problems, lost time and reputation for for everyone involved.

I have a hard time thinking most renters would be comfortable not getting a guest confirmation until 15 days before starting travel.

 

[dioxide45]

I have a hard time thinking most renters would be comfortable not getting a guest confirmation until 15 days before starting travel.

I would agree, but it seems to happen. The thing with KOALA is, you never get an actual confirmation except the KOALA confirmation. So you never really know if your name is on the reservation or not. You don't see the Wyndham confirmation. At least that has been my experience when renting through them.

 

[chapjim]

I would agree, but it seems to happen. The thing with KOALA is, you never get an actual confirmation except the KOALA confirmation. So you never really know if your name is on the reservation or not. You don't see the Wyndham confirmation. At least that has been my experience when renting through them.

Does Koala confirm to the renter before the Wyndham owner sends Koala a guest confirmation? Yes or no, someone is at risk.

 

[dioxide45]

Does Koala confirm to the renter before the Wyndham owner sends Koala a guest confirmation? Yes or no, someone is at risk.

I don't really know their process. I know when I make a booking, it isn't confirmed and the owner/host has to confirm it. Perhaps they just confirm they still have an active reservation that they are able to provide to the renter. Then usually within 24 hours you get a confirmation indicating the the host has confirmed the booking. But I never see any Wyndham confirmation. I just show up and give the resort my name and they have me in the system. I don't know if the owner ever provides KOALA with a final confirmation in the guests name. I know they confirm the booking upfront, but beyond that I don't really know. I may ask KOALA about this to see how the process works at time of confirming a guest.