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What do you think about personal responsibility and following guidelines?

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Luanne

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That is the point of the statement. Liberty is worth dying for. That is what the country is founded on.
You know I really do understand that. Maybe my statement was a bit dramatic. But I'm getting a bit tired of those going on and on about their liberties being violated. I'd feel pretty violated if I, or someone I care about, got sick or god forbid died, because someone was exercising their liberty instead of being safe.
 

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I agree with the independence part. I dislike everyone telling everyone else what to do. I think people should focus on what works for them. Others who are fearful about catching the virus and/or are in a high risk group should stay home permanently. For some people, like me, death is not the most scary outcome. I am certainly not scared of being sick. I am a hardy person and have always dealt with illness and health conditions in a super positive way. Now, I know many people are not like me, so they should protect themselves and do what is right for their physical and mental health. I do not buy into this thing about masks protecting me and others. At first, the experts said masks did nothing then it looks like the experts changed their mind since they are feeling helpless about what really works. So we have this dart board approach, throwing darts at everything hoping one hits the bullseye.
The experts said masks do nothing so we wouldn’t grab them up. They wanted them for frontline medical people and there weren’t enough. To me it never made sense. They just should have told us the truth and maybe it wouldn’t be imbedded in so many that they don’t do anything. Medical staff always wore masks before, in my doctors office I was told to put one on if I was sick before, they have purpose.

Telling people to stay home permanently because others do not want to wear a mask is not fair either. My mom is 86. Should she be told you can’t go out for a year and a half because others want their freedom but you cannot have yours as they will not wear a mask? She lives in NYC and it is mandatory for everyone to wear a mask when they are near others so at least she can go out for a walk.
 

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Comment removed.
 
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Ken555

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That is the point of the statement. Liberty is worth dying for. That is what the country is founded on.

There is a HUGE distinction between the causes of the Revolutionary War and those causing us being asked to stay home (or wear masks) due to a pandemic. Applying the standard of liberty as meant in 1775 when Patrick Henry spoke this phrase in the current context is laughable.
 

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Another thread that has become a head banger. Time for me to step back. It's the same arguments between the same people. And at this point I don't think either will change their minds.

The point is we are just expressing our opinions. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I feel like others are trying to change my mind and I feel like my opinion is not welcome.
 

Ken555

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FWIW, there are multiple jurisdictions now fining those who go without wearing a mask in public.

In any case, I personally find myself morally and ethically obligated to wear a mask when near others. It is simply the right thing to do. I don't need any politician to tell me this, and any confusion which exists from the experts on the chronology of this pandemic is understandable in context. Of course, we sadly have a segment of society which doesn't trust experts and will use any excuse to not follow their advice.
 

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The experts said masks do nothing so we wouldn’t grab them up. They wanted them for frontline medical people and there weren’t enough. To me it never made sense. They just should have told us the truth and maybe it wouldn’t be imbedded in so many that they don’t do anything. Medical staff always wore masks before, in my doctors office I was told to put one on if I was sick before, they have purpose.

Telling people to stay home permanently because others do not want to wear a mask is not fair either. My mom is 86. Should she be told you can’t go out for a year and a half because others want their freedom but you cannot have yours as they will not wear a mask? She lives in NYC and it is mandatory for everyone to wear a mask when they are near others so at least she can go out for a walk.

I never said people should stay home because others are not wearing a mask. I said if others really want to protect themselves and be certain they will not get sick and die, then the only way to be safe is to stay home. Some people are saying they want to give up their liberties to be safe. Then that is fine with me but they need to do it in a really safe way. Not think that a mask and social distancing is going to prevent them from getting sick. Your mom is really high risk. I would not want my great-aunt who is also 86 to start going out and think she is safe because people are wearing masks.
 

Ken555

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The point is we are just expressing our opinions. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I feel like others are trying to change my mind and I feel like my opinion is not welcome.

You shouldn't feel this way. All opinions are welcome in civil discourse. And, it would be hoped that everyone participating would use whatever information is posted to critically consider their own opinion. I've had TUG threads change my opinion in the past, and I'm sure it will occur again.
 

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When I go out I wear a mask. It is simple to do and not a big deal to me. I do not think wearing or not wearing a mask affects my liberty. But I do not look down on people who are not wearing masks and think they are immoral or unethical. Frankly, I do not have any opinion about what others are doing. It is their life and I do not think my life is dependent on what others do.
 

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The "header" for this thread was "
What do you think about personal responsibility and following guidelines

Isn't the idea to answer this question honestly? I thought this was an invitation to open dialogue.
 

Ken555

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Not think that a mask and social distancing is going to prevent them from getting sick. Your mom is really high risk. I would not want my great-aunt who is also 86 to start going out and think she is safe because people are wearing masks.

This is a very fair point, and I agree with it.

However, it is also fair that *everyone* in a public space near others wear a mask. It has nothing to do with individual rights, it has to do with the health of others. Some people in a high risk category have no choice but to go out to get food, go to pharmacy, doctors, etc. As a society, we are ethically obligated (I suspect I'm going to be using that phrase a lot in future) to protect those who are at most risk, and each other. There is really no excuse for not wearing a mask.
 

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When I go out I wear a mask. It is simple to do and not a big deal to me. I do not think wearing or not wearing a mask affects my liberty. But I do not look down on people who are not wearing masks and think they are immoral or unethical. Frankly, I do not have any opinion about what others are doing. It is their life and I do not think my life is dependent on what others do.

Well, their actions could impact you and others. Wearing a mask protects others. With this in mind, why would you think your life is not dependent on their actions?
 

Panina

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I never said people should stay home because others are not wearing a mask. I said if others really want to protect themselves and be certain they will not get sick and die, then the only way to be safe is to stay home. Some people are saying they want to give up their liberties to be safe. Then that is fine with me but they need to do it in a really safe way. Not think that a mask and social distancing is going to prevent them from getting sick. Your mom is really high risk. I would not want my great-aunt who is also 86 to start going out and think she is safe because people are wearing masks.
So what should she do? As mom says do I have to wait until I am 88 to go out, until there is a vaccine? Either way I increase my chances of dying, stay inside the apartment and I have less mobility and my body shuts down or I go outside, have mobility and catch the virus. Her chances of not getting sick outside are better if others are wearing a mask, until they prove otherwise.
 

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You shouldn't feel this way. All opinions are welcome in civil discourse. And, it would be hoped that everyone participating would use whatever information is posted to critically consider their own opinion. I've had TUG threads change my opinion in the past, and I'm sure it will occur again.

Okay thanks for saying that. It is frustrating when people post that they are ending a conversation because they did not like or agree with someone else’s opinion. I am just expressing my opinion, like everyone else on TUG. I do not think I am more right than anyone else. When the data comes out and there is real science about what to do, I will believe it. I do believe real experts who have studied this stuff. I am actually much more evidence-based than the average person and that also makes my skeptical of claims without data behind them. The problem right now is there are no real experts on Covid. In the meantime, I doing what I am told to do because I am a rule follower.
 

Panina

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The "header" for this thread was "
What do you think about personal responsibility and following guidelines

Isn't the idea to answer this question honestly? I thought this was an invitation to open dialogue.
Definitely is, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I definitely can understand those who have a different viewpoint then me and realized my views are from a standpoint of thinking about my 86 year old mom.
 

TravelTime

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Well, their actions could impact you and others. Wearing a mask protects others. With this in mind, why would you think your life is not dependent on their actions?

The reason I think that is because I have the choice to stay home if I do not want to get sick. Every time I go out, with a mask on and with social distancing, I do wonder if I will get sick. The other thing, I have the choice to stay away from other people who are not wearing a mask. Frankly, the only way to stay completely safe is to stay home and avoid people. I have not chosen to do everything online so I still go out for essential services and medical reasons, knowing it is a risk every time. I prefer to believe I am in charge on my own health, unless someone is a murderer and trying to kill me. Then my life does depend on someone else’s actions. Some people might argue that going out without a mask is like being a potential murderer, I guess.
 

Ken555

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The reason I think that is because I have the choice to stay home if I do not want to get sick. Every time I go out, with a mask on and with social distancing, I do wonder if I will get sick. The other thing, I have the choice to stay away from other people who are not wearing a mask. Frankly, the only way to stay completely safe is to stay home and avoid people. I have not chosen to do everything online so I still go out for essential services and medical reasons, knowing it is a risk every time. I prefer to believe I am in charge on my own health, unless someone is a murderer and trying to kill me. Then my life does depend on someone else’s actions. Some people might argue that going out without a mask is like being a potential murderer, I guess.

Unfortunately, this doesn't help those who have no choice but to go out. If you have a choice, then sure, stay home. That's what I'm doing. I went out last week to the local farm (yes, we have them in Los Angeles!) and bought fresh produce (it's outside, there were only ~4-5 people, and everyone was wearing masks), and it's likely that's the only place I will go in the near future, barring unforeseen requirements. I'm ordering everything else for delivery, and I'm fine with that. But, there are many who must go out. For them, they are not in charge of their own health and rely upon the goodwill of others to wear masks to protect them from the inadvertent spreading of this disease. It doesn't ask much for everyone to wear a mask, and I have yet to hear an objectively justifiable reason for not wearing one.
 

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Definitely is, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I definitely can understand those who have a different viewpoint then me and realized my views are from a standpoint of thinking about my 86 year old mom.
I have an 85 year old mom, too, so I understand the issues there. On the flipside, my mother lives in assisted living and I feel like she's being held hostage there. Trust me, I understand that ALL residents need protecting, but my mother wants to see her family and we want to see her . It really makes my brain want to explode that she's at the sunset of her life and I'm prevented from spending time with her.

And please, peanut gallery, I don't need moralizing on why this is necessary. I understand it. I just don't like it and am frustrated by it. I'm entitled to feel that way.
 

Ken555

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And please, peanut gallery, I don't need moralizing on why this is necessary. I understand it. I just don't like it and am frustrated by it. I'm entitled to feel that way.

Have I insulted you? No. Please don't insult me.
 

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There is a HUGE distinction between the causes of the Revolutionary War and those causing us being asked to stay home (or wear masks) due to a pandemic. Applying the standard of liberty as meant in 1775 when Patrick Henry spoke this phrase in the current context is laughable.
The fact that you fail to understand the comparison is what's laughable. ;)
 

Ken555

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The fact that you fail to understand the comparison is what's laughable. ;)

And here we go, down the rabbit hole leading to inevitable locking of this thread.

Instead of correcting my failure, you simply insult me. This is not the way to convince me that I'm wrong; instead, it simply tells me you are incapable of civil discussion.
 

Cornell

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Have I insulted you? No. Please don't insult me.
I"m not sure what you are trying to say here but let me re-state what I was trying to convey : I understand and respect the policies of elder-care facilities. But I can still be upset, frustrated, etc that I cannot see my mother. I'm upset with the situation , not the policies. I think everyone is entitled to feel frustration and anger at this entire deal-io.
 

Ken555

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I"m not sure what you are trying to say here but let me re-state what I was trying to convey : I understand and respect the policies of elder-care facilities. But I can still be upset, frustrated, etc that I cannot see my mother. I'm upset with the situation , not the policies. I think everyone is entitled to feel frustration and anger at this entire deal-io.

I understand. I'm in the same position as you. I'm frustrated.

Still, I'm not classifying others as in the "peanut gallery" after expressing a desire to have an honest thread with open dialogue. Perhaps you should reread your posts in the context for which you started this thread - I'm trying to abide by them, are you?
 

Cornell

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I understand. I'm in the same position as you. I'm frustrated.

Still, I'm not classifying others as in the "peanut gallery" after expressing a desire to have an honest thread with open dialogue. Perhaps you should reread your posts in the context for which you started this thread - I'm trying to abide by them, are you?
Fair enough. I was just trying to indicate that I don't need anyone lecturing me on why senior facilities need these rules. I think 99.9% would understand why there are such strict rules around them.
 

b2bailey

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And here we go, down the rabbit hole leading to inevitable locking of this thread.

Instead of correcting my failure, you simply insult me. This is not the way to convince me that I'm wrong; instead, it simply tells me you are incapable of civil discussion.
Wondering if the use of the word "you" should be banned from a post such as this. When I express my own feelings it is the word "I " that indicates my point of view. As soon as I introduce the word "you" -- I have drifted away from my own thoughts and feelings -- and may open the door to negative comments directed towards another.
 
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