Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[SueDonJ]

I'm in Maui right now and took our sales tour yesterday - Marriott is so desperate that they are offering 20% cash discounts to anyone who has the cash to buy. Don't know about financing - didn't ask.

This means that EVERY person who bought the New Towers at Maui Ocean Club got screwed - they paid 20% too much as they never raised the initial "Pre-construction Pricing".

Marriott has no problems screwing existing owners why become one with them?

My advice to everyone is to NOT BUY A TIMESHARE NOW - not resale and not developer.

Prices will drop even more before real estate recovers.

P.S.

Wonder if Marriott has a price matching policy like most retailers - good luck...

Perry, this isn't anything new with MVCI, although it is more apt to happen in a depressed economy. If you buy direct before a resort is fully developed, your ownership documents clearly outline the risks of the resort not being completed as planned and the pricing structures not being implemented as scheduled.

It appears that Crystal Shores is being impacted by those risks to a far greater extent than any other MVCI resort which was in the development phase when the economy tanked last year. But there are a few others, like Maui, that are suffering somewhat due to Marriott's announcements last fall that all new/further development would be suspended, and a new "discount" pricing structure would be offered on existing developer inventory.

 

[PerryM]

Watch that evil eye folks...

Every been to Vegas and get the "Evil Eye" from the pit boss?

Walk into any casino and they welcome you with open arms - reaching for your wallet when you aren't looking. This is what Marriott is going to be offering their owners.

They don't want folks like me who play Black Jack according to the rules and counts cards in their head. I can see it after I raise my bet when the card count is in my favor and lower it when it favors the house. I do this a few times and the pit boss somehow wonders over to my location and just stares at me (Ok; maybe its just in my mind)

Marriott is the casino in their new exchange scheme and will not tolerate those players who work the system to their advantage - folks who buy resale.

Can't wait until the evil eye to find me. The house always wins...

 

[DanCali]

Sales rep at Frenchman's Cove told me during the presentation today that the Points system is definitely coming in June. This contrasts with a Marriott telesales rep a week ago who professed to know nothing about it.

Today's take was interesting. The rep stated that it would be cost ineffective for a resale owner to join. He also stated that there would be different levels within the system. The top level being 6 developer bought platinum weeks. Looking at what I currently own he said I would be in a lower tier. Of course if I bought 2 more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.

Any advice?

Did you get a chance to ask him if buying a Gold week would still get you 7 days in Hawaii after the "imminent" launch in June?

If they are really going the "Elite" owner route this sounds a lot like Starwood - they have 3*, 4* and 5* "Elite Owners". A quick visit to the Starwood board will reveal some on TUG believe that Starwood is about to fall off a precipice...

Maybe Marriott will come up with a retro program too. For those unfamiliar with the Starwood "retro/requal" - basically you buy a developer unit and as part of the purchase they requalify a resale purchase as if it was purchased from the developer - so it gets full "club" privileges and can also convert to hotel points. In other words - they remove the dreaded "R" flag in the computer... It's subject to minimum purchase amounts etc, but that's the gist of it.

Please note that my previous paragraph is NOT based on anything I know or heard, and may be very unlikely. This is not an intent to spread a new rumor...

Given the stagnant retail sales market and Marriott's need to generate retail sales (although they can rest on their laurels with the maintenance fees on the 50 resorts), such a "retro" program could accomplish that. It would be geared towards current owners who presumably like the product and it entices them to pay more for a retail purchase even if they know about the resale market. Think if it - "buy three developer units, requalify your three retail purchases so they are not "retail status" and get Platinum status, including for hotel visits, for life and a bunch of other perks like room/view upgrades, no lockoff fees, no hotel points conversion fees, early checkin, late checkout etc". Any buyers? Of course, if someone doesn't own a resale unit there is no need to disclose the "retro" program in a sales presentation - maybe they get lucky and someone buys 6 retail weeks... but if the prospect discloses they have a resale week already, now it's easier to make a sale.

If such a program were to launch (and clearly any salesperson would deny it since it eliminates the incentive to buy today), there is certainly no reason to buy developer now. Wait and see what happens...


Added: Now that i think of it, it's also possible this salesperson read my earlier post #42 and made up the "Elite Owner" rumor - it's one we haven't heard yeat until I brought it up a few days ago!

 

[PerryM]

Perry, this isn't anything new with MVCI, although it is more apt to happen in a depressed economy. If you buy direct before a resort is fully developed, your ownership documents clearly outline the risks of the resort not being completed as planned and the pricing structures not being implemented as scheduled.

It appears that Crystal Shores is being impacted by those risks to a far greater extent than any other MVCI resort which was in the development phase when the economy tanked last year. But there are a few others, like Maui, that are suffering somewhat due to Marriott's announcements last fall that all new/further development would be suspended, and a new "discount" pricing structure would be offered on existing developer inventory.

Timeshares, like Destination Clubs, fail in a declining real estate market - they were created to flourish in raising real estate markets and fall apart in declining markets.

At some point real estate will recover - have no idea when that will happen and timeshare ownership might be favorable to renting again.

However, it will take a lot for folks to get "Pocket Change" that they don't mind blowing on real estate schemes again.

In the mean time, renting now is far superior to owning - someday that will change.

P.S.

And for goodness sakes don't buy Marriott while all this turmoil roils the resale market - will the new exchange scheme screw resale owners? Marriott has made it clear that resales are to be adversely impacted by their new scheme - heed their advice.

 

[ldanna]

$72,000 ?

For timeshares ?

I would have to be plumb out of my helmet to fork over 72 grand for timeshares.

Shux, around here we think it's nutz to shell out 72 hundred for timeshares.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Alan, you haven't been around very often, but inflation got us Marriott owners. That's in fact just an upgrade he will have to pay to join the new system.

Let me try to make the Marriott people (employees) that follow this list to understand basics: the whole world changed AND it won't be same again. I don't know if it changed for good, but it changed.

Let me give you an example: about 3 years ago it was really cool to drive a Hummer and lots of people could affort one. Then we have the "4 dollar a gallon gas" where just a few people could affort to drive a Hummer. After 10/08 the gallon of gas come to about 1.5 dollar and everybody could affort a Hummer again BUT the way people think was changed forever. 3 years ago just a few people cared about fuel efficient cars, and nowadays just a few people don't. Alternatives where created or are more important like hybrid cars, flexfuel engenies, etc.

Same think for a TS, before 10/08 you could think about buying a week for $50K or more. Today, it doesn't matter if you can affort it or not, the whole ideia is insane, and it will be years from now. And if the companies don't change the way the price their investments and their final product they will end up like Hummer, they will be history.

BTW Alan, it's not possible to buy used toothbrushes at eBay anymore, new rules.:hysterical:

 

[Powerguy]

Sales rep at Frenchman's Cove told me during the presentation today that the Points system is definitely coming in June. This contrasts with a Marriott telesales rep a week ago who professed to know nothing about it.

Today's take was interesting. The rep stated that it would be cost ineffective for a resale owner to join. He also stated that there would be different levels within the system. The top level being 6 developer bought platinum weeks. Looking at what I currently own he said I would be in a lower tier. Of course if I bought 2 more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.

Any advice?

Never mind I'm going back to the beach with my grandson and probably won't be back in time to tell him I want the deal anyway. I'll try again next year.

I took the time last night to read through my timeshare documents. Nowhere in any of the documents is there a differentiation between a direct Marriott purchase buyer and a resale buyer.

The only differentiation in ownership is that owners of multiple weeks can reserve their consecutive or multiple concurrent weeks 13 months in advance.

All of the units are initially purchased from Marriott directly and therefore have the same deeded and contractual rights, privileges and benefits.

If Marriott, through its actions to create "classes" of owners that in any way inhibits an owners ability to reserve their timeshare season weeks there will be hell to pay. I can predict the National Timeshare Owners Association filing a suit against Marriott.

 

[melroseman]

I bought a DLP TV 3 years ago for $3,000 and today I can buy a far better one of 1/3 of the price. My first color TV was $300 in 1970 dollars; no remote, tiny screen. I bought a Garmin for $250 2 years ago and now it sells for $99.

Not every reduction in price is a deliberate and calculated move to screw the consumer. Sometimes the companies just want to stay in business and they do what they need to do. Chill out a little, people....

 

[Stefa]

If Marriott, through its actions to create "classes" of owners that in any way inhibits an owners ability to reserve their timeshare season weeks there will be hell to pay. I can predict the National Timeshare Owners Association filing a suit against Marriott.

I don't believe Marriott would attempt this. They could, however, make rules within their internal exchange program that favor certain "classes" of owners. This would be an inducement for some owners to purchase more weeks. Starwood, for example, has several levels of "elite" status that are linked to developer purchases and have varying benefits. Interestingly, Starwood has rolled back many of the extra benefits (such as upgrades) and that has somewhat diluted the value of elite status.

 

[PerryM]

The caste is set...

I don't believe Marriott would attempt this. They could, however, make rules within their internal exchange program that favor certain "classes" of owners. This would be an inducement for some owners to purchase more weeks. Starwood, for example, has several levels of "elite" status that are linked to developer purchases and have varying benefits. Interestingly, Starwood has rolled back many of the extra benefits (such as upgrades) and that has somewhat diluted the value of elite status.

But this is the ONLY reason Marriott has cooked up this sales scheme - kill the resale market.

Haven't we heard this from dozens of folks on their sales tour - it sure happened on my tour. Marriott is hell bent on pitting owner against owner with a caste system. Owners, at the same sold out resort, can no longer exchange usage among themselves.

Marriott managers have spent too much time in first-class on the airlines and look down at us common folks in the back with our yaks.

 

[timeos2]

A few golden oldies make interesting reading in retrospect

A quick review of the "facts" regarding the internal Marriott System and the devolution of the beloved ROFR from 2008 might be in order as it appears the prognostications were a slight bit off:

But this is the ONLY reason Marriott has cooked up this sales scheme - kill the resale market.

Haven't we heard this from dozens of folks on their sales tour - it sure happened on my tour. Marriott is hell bent on pitting owner against owner with a caste system. Owners, at the same sold out resort, can no longer exchange usage among themselves.

Marriott managers have spent too much time in first-class on the airlines and look down at us common folks in the back with our yaks.

but in 2008

There is NO WAY that Marriott will screw around with changing the 12/13 month reservation window within Marriott. None, zip, zilch; Marriott sale or resale.

The ill will that this would stir up would result in many class action lawsuits and bad press. Why would Marriott want to do such a thing? They would not.

Marriott may indeed release an internal, owner only, exchange system – expect it to look exactly like II. If that’s the case then why spend millions doing what 1 simple phone call to II could do in 5 minutes?

I understand that other developers have internal exchange systems but I doubt that Marriott has lost ONE sale to them over this subject. I’ve never heard of someone dumping Marriott in favor of Westin because they knew the difference and felt Westin had the better solution. Maybe there is someone but I’ve never heard of it and I’ve sat thru many Starwood sales tours and this was never brought up.

Again, I’m not losing a second of sleep over any of these topics – I have faith in Marriott as a sales/marketing organization who knows that screwing around with a good thing is just stupid.

Not to worry – Marriott is NOT the airline industry where punishing their customers is #1 on the list of things to do.

This whole topic of Punishing Marriott Owners is a hoot to read – you’ve got Marriott salesreps cooking up stories all the time and laughing with bellyaching pain on how somefolks here actually believe their dribble.

Then you’ve got folks extrapolating these crazy ideas and I’m laughing so hard my side aches too.

This is all rubbish and is a great substitute for nothing on TV this time of year.

If folks want to believe the salesreps and play what-if games then who are we to stand in their way - it's great fun. Ooooppppsss I just fell off my chair

THE smartest and most knowledgeable timeshare salesrep I’ve met in 10 years of timeshare ownership works at Marriott’s Timber Lodge – I met him 4th of July week this year. He too hears the rumors and believes them.

Many believe UFOs are for real too – these are level headed folks who have no desire to kill all humans and take over our planet. What can I say – many good folks believe in all kinds of stuff.

If anything these rumors should spur smart timeshare folks into buying resale versus from Marriott. I normally recommend that folks buy Marriott – unless they are wonks like us. However, if you believe in the Marriott salesreps then you should be buying Marriott resales like crazy. Marriott sounds like they are not exercising the ROFR on some villas, because of the real estate market, and folks panic all the time so this is a great time to buy resale.

Marriott will incorporate ALL owners on the day they should release their internal exchange system - I've already put my money where my mouth is in a $25 bet to a charity in Tug's name on this issue.

Thank the Marriott salesreps who believe in this dribble – buy buy buy resale.

Me, I’m protected – I wear my aluminum helmet most of the day and am protected from UFOs and timeshare salesreps. No one seems to bother me when I slap that puppy on....

P.S.
Can we put a moratorium on "Marriott's Internal Exchange System" - all this does is spread rumors and panic folks who don't have the knowledge we have? If and when Marriott does introduce such a scheme is the day to form new strategies.

We seem to be doing the work of the timeshares salesreps - spread panic and a reason to buy from Marriott versus resale.

And then the infamous "ask more when you can't sell" theory:

Supply and demand I know – it’s all in the minds of the buyers and sellers.

If anything Marriott should send a simple eMail to ALL Marriott owners explaining the ROFR – and suggest that selling their Marriott for peanuts will result in the buyer shoved aside and Marriott takes over – if Marriott wants that week.

They should also suggest that selling their Marriott for 60% of the current Marriott price will result in more money in the owner’s pocket.

But Marriott won’t do such a thing since there are foolish Marriott owners hell bent on holding their own firesale.

This is an education problem and NOT a supply and demand problem since there really isn’t a free market here with the ROFR – that’s what the ROFR papers I’ve read here seem to keep pointing out – I believe them.

So hopefully any Marriott owner stumbling upon this thread should be asking for 60% of current Marriott sales prices – why allow Marriott to buy your unit for less than 60%?

The more Marriott owners know these facts the higher resale prices – this helps ALL Marriott owners. The buyer is never going to get that firesale price anyway. (Unless Marriott sees the week as a dog and doesn’t want it – the bottom-feeders are welcome to those weeks – they pay the same MF as the Platinum Plus owners. Woo Hoo)


The ROFR benefits Marriott owners FIRST and the developer SECOND and the bottom-feeders LAST.

P.S.
This issue is so clear to me that I can't believe other Marriott owners would oppose the ROFR.

If every Marriott owner asked for 60% of current Marriott sales the ROFR would NOT be an issue.

The ROFR is aimed squarely at the week-kneed Marriott owner hell bent on selling their unit for less than 60% - simply up your asking price and the ROFR will work for you and enrich your family's well being.

But if you're in a financial bind and need a few bucks go ahead and sell it for less than 60% and you will have your sale. Marriott will make a profit and the bottom-feeder is left to swim for another firesale.

Who can ask for more than that?

(Well we bottom-feeders of course) Why are we so concerned with them - screw them.

P.P.S.
From reading a dozen ROFR papers from academia I think they are doing studies on a different ROFR than what we Marriott owners enjoy. In the scholarly papers I never see them describing a well know ROFR sale price that is known to ALL parties, if they had the foresight to do a little research. They seem to concentrate on an unknown price level that is known ONLY to the 3rd party.

For this reason I'm ignoring all those papers - until I can find one where the ROFR "trip wire" price is known to all 3 parties. Any reseller worth their salt knows of the Marriott 60% level and it's been documented on TUG a thousand times.

Let's not mix apples and oranges in this analysis.

I pick on poor Perry but it shows that assumptions can go terribly wrong when the environment changes. NEVER assume things will stay as they are and always plan for the worst case to protect yourself. Those who turned out to be the foolish were the ones that fell for the "must match ROFR" nonsense as now they can't begin to hope to recover anything near to what they paid.

Those who bought thinking that the II priority would always mean easy upgrades will most likely be badly burned soon. Those that bought thinking fees would remain at startup levels got a rude surprise. Those that paid as little as possible, bought what they wanted to use and still feel the annual fees are reasonable are sitting pretty as none of this makes a bit of difference to them except those pesky fees that every timeshare owner has to live with.

Follow the "buy resale where you want to go, don't depend on trade" rules and you too will most likely be a very happy timeshare owner. Buy to profit, only to trade, to game the system for "free upgrades" and eventually it will bite you. Look no further than Marriott & Starwood today and DVC as the remaining years of RTU dwindle (and the price tanks) to see how paying too much or believing things never change is a losing choice.

 

[dougp26364]

I think every points based reservation system has some sort of elite program that gives you a few more benefits for owning more units bought through the developer. I know that both Diamond Resorts and HGVC have this set up. With Diamond resorts, resale buyers can't even participate in their points based reservation system without either buying additonal points directly thorugh the developer or paying a joiner fee which, last I knew was $2,995.

It's not viewed as a way to pit one owner against another or create a caste system, even if in reality that's what it does. It's created to generate additional sales. They're selling the sizzle of being "elite" and, I believe you'll find it's proven over and over again to work. Look at the airlines as an example. Toss people a few benefits like being able to board first and people will work to become elite flyers. Irrational as is may be, people want to be elite. Elite status can and does sell.

Does this really surprise anyone? How do most timeshare tours go? They tell you about vacations and how important they are to family's. They show you their idea of the cost difference between paying up front (ownership) and paying as you go (renting). If you don't buy what do they use then? They try to make you feel bad about not doing the right thing for your family. Won't it be a lot the same selling elite status? You already own with us, don't you want to be an elite member? All you have to do is buy just one more timeshare and you'll be elite. If you're a resale buyer they'll try to use guilt to get you into their elite program. Don't you want to be like everybody else? You own enough to qualify but you're shut out because you haven't purchased a unit direct from us. Let me show you the wonderful world you and your family will live in if you buy just one week directly from us instead of that miserable world you're in now as a resale buyer.

Maybe it won't be like this but, after going on more than a couple of persentations, the patterns already set.

If they offer something and I think it will benefit me, I'll think about it and maybe I'll join. If it doesn't look as if it will benefit me I'll just keep things the way they are and they can keep their elite status. Sure extra perks are nice but not if they cost thousands of dollars to get them.

 

[PerryM]

Time travel in the timeshare world

A quick review of the "facts" regarding the internal Marriott System and the devolution of the beloved ROFR from 2008 might be in order as it appears the prognostications were a slight bit off:



but in 2008







And then the infamous "ask more when you can't sell" theory:



I pick on poor Perry but it shows that assumptions can go terribly wrong when the environment changes. NEVER assume things will stay as they are and always plan for the worst case to protect yourself. Those who turned out to be the foolish were the ones that fell for the "must match ROFR" nonsense as now they can't begin to hope to recover anything near to what they paid.

Those who bought thinking that the II priority would always mean easy upgrades will most likely be badly burned soon. Those that bought thinking fees would remain at startup levels got a rude surprise. Those that paid as little as possible, bought what they wanted to use and still feel the annual fees are reasonable are sitting pretty as none of this makes a bit of difference to them except those pesky fees that every timeshare owner has to live with.

Follow the "buy resale where you want to go, don't depend on trade" rules and you too will most likely be a very happy timeshare owner. Buy to profit, only to trade, to game the system for "free upgrades" and eventually it will bite you. Look no further than Marriott & Starwood today and DVC as the remaining years of RTU dwindle (and the price tanks) to see how paying too much or believing things never change is a losing choice.

I'm flattered so many who follow my past predictions.

Beyond forecasting the sun will rise tomorrow in the east and set in the west I make predictions based upon what is currently happening and backing up a time frame (say 2 years) and assume the future (say 2 years) will continue the trend.

The past 2 years have been horrible for timeshares - both buyers and sellers. I forecast 2 more years of the same.

My recommendation to anyone who cares is to NOT BUY A TIMESHARE NOW!

I also recommend that NOT SELL A TIMESHARE NOW!

Just do the best with what you have but don't change.

If someone has a better method of predicting the future I'm all ears.

Marriott has amply demonstrated that MOC owners who bought in the new towers out here ALL got screwed. You can buy the same exact timeshare right now for 20% less and a boat full of MRPs that are eye popping. (Latest tower only)

If anyone has some great real estate news signaling the bottom of this abyss I'd like to read about it. I only hear rosy scenarios from folks trying to sell real estate be it homes, condos, or timeshares.

So take my advice for exactly what you paid for it.

P.S.

Forecasting the new Point Reservation System is easy too - the salesreps keep telling us exactly what Marriott will do - kill the resale market for Marriotts. Isn't that what they keep warning us about?

 

[PerryM]

Tidy Bowl management

I think every points based reservation system has some sort of elite program that gives you a few more benefits for owning more units bought through the developer. I know that both Diamond Resorts and HGVC have this set up. With Diamond resorts, resale buyers can't even participate in their points based reservation system without either buying additonal points directly thorugh the developer or paying a joiner fee which, last I knew was $2,995.

It's not viewed as a way to pit one owner against another or create a caste system, even if in reality that's what it does. It's created to generate additional sales. They're selling the sizzle of being "elite" and, I believe you'll find it's proven over and over again to work. Look at the airlines as an example. Toss people a few benefits like being able to board first and people will work to become elite flyers. Irrational as is may be, people want to be elite. Elite status can and does sell.

Does this really surprise anyone? How do most timeshare tours go? They tell you about vacations and how important they are to family's. They show you their idea of the cost difference between paying up front (ownership) and paying as you go (renting). If you don't buy what do they use then? They try to make you feel bad about not doing the right thing for your family. Won't it be a lot the same selling elite status? You already own with us, don't you want to be an elite member? All you have to do is buy just one more timeshare and you'll be elite. If you're a resale buyer they'll try to use guilt to get you into their elite program. Don't you want to be like everybody else? You own enough to qualify but you're shut out because you haven't purchased a unit direct from us. Let me show you the wonderful world you and your family will live in if you buy just one week directly from us instead of that miserable world you're in now as a resale buyer.

Maybe it won't be like this but, after going on more than a couple of persentations, the patterns already set.

If they offer something and I think it will benefit me, I'll think about it and maybe I'll join. If it doesn't look as if it will benefit me I'll just keep things the way they are and they can keep their elite status. Sure extra perks are nice but not if they cost thousands of dollars to get them.

This all makes sense for something you purchase - that's not what Marriott will do!

At my Summit Watch Marriott cleans the toilets and we owners get to exchange usage among ourselves via II. I exchanged my Gold week for a Platinum Holiday week there 3 years ago.

Marriott now want's to stop this and put up a barrier which prevents owners from exchanging usage like we have for 20 years now. Marriott has nothing to do with this - I make a reservation with MY unit through Marriott then exit the Marriott system and enter II's system to conduct business.

Who gave them the authority to do this? Certainly not the owners at Summit Watch who pay Marriott to clean the toilets.

This is a HUGE deal and the result will be less usage of our real estate by a company who decided they need more profits than just Tidy Bowl cleaning.

 

[GregT]

I think it is in poor taste to pull quotes from the past to try and discredit current comments.

We are all trying to read tea-leaves together and I don't want to discourage anyone from posting their views, if they fear those comments will be presented in a different view in the future.

There's a term for intimidation of alternative points of view????

I welcome any contributor --- even those that are highly opinionated (and intelligent).

 

[PerryM]

Watch my lips move...

I think it is in poor taste to pull quotes from the past to try and discredit current comments.

We are all trying to read tea-leaves together and I don't want to discourage anyone from posting their views, if they fear those comments will be presented in a different view in the future.

There's a term for intimidation of alternative points of view????

I welcome any contributor --- even those that are highly opinionated (and intelligent).

Here here!

It's been my experience that when this debating tactic is used its a sign that the debate is over and one side can't come up with anything but stale quotes from long ago taken out of context.

Kind of like one of those 007 movies where snippets of words are pasted together to say just about anything you can imagine. This is not debate but a poor form of ventriloquism.

 

[SueDonJ]

Here here!

It's been my experience that when this debating tactic is used its a sign that the debate is over and one side can't come up with anything but stale quotes from long ago taken out of context.

Kind of like one of those 007 movies where snippets of words are pasted together to say just about anything you can imagine. This is not debate but a poor form of ventriloquism.

I don't think posting old quotes is exactly a sign of a white flag flying, Perry, but I do agree that it may not prove any points in a current discussion. Like you say, the market is changing all the time and we adapt to it, that's all.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Marriott cleans the toilets ...

I think you way oversimplify the privileges and constraints that every MVCI owner enjoys and suffers by virtue of the management contract held between Marriott and every MVCI resort. If you truly believe that in a sold-out resort Marriott's only position is that of a janitorial service, that's a sign of you not understanding what you've purchased. Browse a copy of your resort's governing docs, including the management contract, Perry. I think you might be unhappily surprised.

 

[PerryM]

The party of the first part.....

I think you way oversimplify the privileges and constraints that every MVCI owner enjoys and suffers by virtue of the management contract held between Marriott and every MVCI resort. If you truly believe that in a sold-out resort Marriott's only position is that of a janitorial service, that's a sign of you not understanding what you've purchased. Browse a copy of your resort's governing docs, including the management contract, Perry. I think you might be unhappily surprised.

I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one so I can't comment on the owners kicking Marriott out.

But if the resale price of a unit drops to 5 cents on the dollar (compared to current Marriott sales) why not kick Marriott out and the owners decide on which exchange company does them the most good? There are plenty of management companies that would die for a former Marriott and they will be cheaper.

Marriott is starting this war we can only look at the damage they will inflict on us by way of resale prices.

 

[timeos2]

Have consistent, well thought out plans for long term ownership satisfaction

I don't think posting old quotes is exactly a sign of a white flag flying, Perry, but I do agree that it may not prove any points in a current discussion - the market is changing all the time and we adapt to it, that's all.

Consistency more than specifics are the hallmark of a good theory. To flatly declare that buying a less costly week "knowing" it will be "easy to upgrade" may not hold up when the environment changes. Buying to use is a philosophy that doesn't depend on many variable outside factors to be successful. Declaring a open ended "best buy" recommendation can backfire unless the underlying assumptions are clearly stated and remain unchanged. Saying in general that buying resale will be a better value than retail stands up even as factors around it change.

We have had too many fads be heralded as great things (the short lived Condo Hotel craze - heard much on THAT one lately?, the Destination Club debacle, the cheap South African trade value fluke and the granddaddy of all, the ROFR "helping" sellers) that collapsed practically overnight, taking a lot of buyer money with them. Beware the "next great thing" as it often results in an outcome closer to classic pyramid schemes where those in first make money (or get trades) while the majority lose big time.

We also have the threads where people have timeshares they own and no longer want to pay the fees for. How many of those were purchased without proper study based on "you'll always get you money out", "it's an easy trade to upgrade to 2 bedroom Hawaii" or "the fees are only $50 and it can get the Manhattan Club"? Maybe they wouldn't be stuck trying to sell/give away/deed back ownerships if they hadn't been mislead into thinking good things are guaranteed forever. How many wouldn't have paid retail had they known the REAL cost is the annual fees? And that by paying the big retail price to a developer that refuses to relinquish management and control would mean uncontrolled fee increases to make sure the developers bottom line continues to be positive?

I shudder to see the latest in great deals as they appear. Almost invariably the end result is an even longer thread bemoaning the fact that buyers ever got involved. Realize that points are nothing more than another method of exchange and buy only if that is what you wish to use.

 

[PerryM]

My Crystal Ball says...

I'm headed down to the beach and I doubt this thread will uncover anything useful so let me recap my guess what Marriott/Wyndham will do:

• Will introduce a sales gimmick disguised as an "Internal Exchange System"
• Resales will fall 25% of where they used to be forever
• ROFR will be restarted at 35% of current sales prices (60% - 25% = 35%) at some time
• $2,500 will be charged per week for non-Marriott sales (might have an into period where it will start at $1,500)
• 2 years after intro folks will be no better off than with II now
• There will be a lot of irate Marriott owners 2 years from intro
• Sales will be no better for Marriott - way too complicated for newbies

That's it - my forecast.

I'm sure this will be booked marked by folks and I'll be hearing about it 2 years after into but that just means folks must listen to me right?

I'm out of this thread - PM if some earth shattering news hits.

 

[rsackett]

Here is my 2 cents.

1) I will join the Marriott internal exchange program if I think it helps me and I am comfortable with the cost (read minimal).

2) If I do not like the new system and/or it costs too much I will just continue to use II as long as that system stays the same, and I will not give the new system s second thought.

3) If Marriott/II change how II works and I do not like the changes I will drop II and work with the independents, or trade direct, or just use my weeks myself.

No matter what happens I will get use out of and enjoy my Marriott TimeShares!

Ray

 

[jlf58]

Ok, I will play

1. It will be delayed from June ( it always is with them )
2. I hear no home resort priority which , if thats the case, the whole basics behind it will fail
3. very few resale owners will join due to costs
4. only a handful of owners will by additional weeks at time of rollout ( this will come as a shock to them as people not paying 70K for Marco also came as a shock to them )
5. new inventory will be sold this way and it will take years before they even get 10% of there owners to use it so most of you can chill out.
6. They will do what MVCI does best, which is "FEE" you for everything

so to answer what people were thinking, I have zero confidence in Marriott's ability to make this work

Here is my 2 cents.

1) I will join the Marriott internal exchange program if I think it helps me and I am comfortable with the cost (read minimal).

2) If I do not like the new system and/or it costs too much I will just continue to use II as long as that system stays the same, and I will not give the new system s second thought.

3) If Marriott/II change how II works and I do not like the changes I will drop II and work with the independents, or trade direct, or just use my weeks myself.

No matter what happens I will get use out of and enjoy my Marriott TimeShares!

Ray

 

[Powerguy]

So, as soon as you buy a retail week from Marriott your investment has decreased even more that it did before because now if you sell resale the buyer will want a bigger discount so that they can buy into the Marriott point system.

How does a sales guy spin that pitch? I guess that it would be an added incentinve to have the developer sell your unit and take their cut so that the new buyer would buy from the developer and have freee access to teh point system. If that is the case, and Marriott continues to will sell direct purchase and resale weeks for owners, have they just killed their own "value" buy buying direct? Marriott will sell all weeks for the same price so the net to the seller will be the same whether they bought developer of resale. Is my logic valid?

 

[kjd]

Everyone views TUG as a way to get information to better help owners and renters with their timeshare activities. This thread unfortunately is drifting off into sort of a twilight zone with predictions of doom for resale owners based upon a non-existent internal trading system. A non-existent trading system that even Marriott won't say will be implemented. This goes beyond the concept of speculation. Some of the posts have already written the rules and the financial costs to current owners.

As far as someone dredging up quotes from old posts I think it serves no good purpose except for those who like "gotch-yas". Everyone has the right to change their mind. We need to cut Perry some slack. For those who insist on consistency I quote author Oscar Wilde: "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative".

By the way, when can I pay my $1,500 in order to take Marriott's introductory offer for the internal trading system?

 

[m61376]

So Fletch did this have something to do with your decision to leave?