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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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SueDonJ

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How does one purchase resale through marriott? Is there any savings on that route?

Exactly the same as a developer-inventory purchase, and for all intents and purposes there is virtually no difference including the price. Where a TUG differential is made between "direct" and "resale" weeks, I always assume that "resale" means from an external market. "Marriott resale" is pretty much interchangeable with "developer direct."

Two of our weeks were Marriott resales - we bought two SurfWatch weeks together and didn't even realize that one was a Marriott resale until the paperwork was drawn up and there were obvious differences in the two contracts. Our second Marriott resale week was our Barony week; we asked our rep to find us the exact configuration we wanted and waited about 4 months for it to become available.
 

SueDonJ

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Plenty of savings versus the retail option. Currently, the only difference when purchasing resale is that you will not have the opportunity to redeem your vacation owneship interest into the hotel points ~ which, many feel that trading your timeshare in for hotels is not an equitable exchange.

James, I think mkahanek is asking about purchasing directly from Marriott here.
 

m61376

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Susan- It was not my intention in any way to infer anything negative about direct purchases. All of my dealings with salespeople at least inferred that their was a value to the actual ownership, and an issue was made about it being deeded so that its inherent value doesn't become nil at some future point. True, they take great strides to cover themselves and not guarantee any value (akin to a stock prospectus) but, as with an IPO, for example, if you felt that as soon as you bought it it would be worthless I venture to guess you'd never make the purchase.

This really is not a direct versus resale discussion. Rather, it is underlining that Marriott salespeople at least infer that there is some value to owning a week. It is not purely the right to reserve a week. People are told they are actually buying something, and the assumption is made that therefore there is a retained value. That's why timeshares differ from destination clubs, wherein people may plunk down thousands of dollars merely for a right to reserve without owning anything. Even thought they may absolve themselves of all responsibility if, in fact, the properties become worthless, by virtue of promoting ownership they are implying value. I believe that most people buy feeling they are holding onto something valuable.

Let me ask you something- would you have paid the $$$'s you did for your units if you felt that the money you spent was thrown out and the only thing you had was a yearly obligation to pay a MF and the right to reserve a week? Maybe you would have, but I'd venture to guess that most purchasers- whether they bought direct or resale, would not have spent the money purely for the right to make a reservation without feeling that they had some inherent value. The only exceptions would be those who bought low cost weeks (such as Bronze weeks, even from Marriott directly) not for the inherent value of the weeks but just for Flexchange traders. Those buyers likely bought just for the right to make a reservation. Other than that subset of owners, even though people buy for usage, the purchase is justified by the feeling that there is some value to what they've bought.

I believe that very few sales would happen if people felt from the outset that their purchase had no residual value (and that includes both developer and resale sales [don't forget, resales also cost 4 and 5 figures]). And, if you really don't think that salespeople promote that concept, then there would be no resale market at all and certainly no one would be listing units with unrealistic asking prices (the reason that many ask such high prices is because they have been led to believe that the value is retained and, in many cases, people even believe that it appreciates).

And- just to set the record straight- I never told anyone to rescind because they were an idiot- that's really quite insulting. I have told people to rescind because, quite honestly, if someone is posting as to whether they made the right decision or not I feel they likely bought on impulse, while in vacation mode, and should take the time to learn about timeshares, about Marriott and about where and how to buy before making a decision. Once people have researched enough for themselves they likely will not post a question like that. The truth is, there is only a short opportunity to rescind and regrets can be very costly. And I do think that direct purchases were advantageous when prices were a bit lower, up front incentives much higher, MF's lower and before the point devaluations. Unfortunately, those parameters didn't exist when I bought, so I made an educated decision for me. That doesn't make you wrong and me right, but it certainly doesn't make me wrong either. And, just so you know- since I did buy expensive units regardless of how I purchased them, I would not have bought if I felt I was just buying the right to reserve and wasn't buying anything that had any inherent value. Can you honestly say you would have? Would others here have?
 

SueDonJ

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I purchased resale, but directly through Marriott, and I still do not regret it nor am I afraid to let people know. Availability to convert to usage to Marriott Reward Points, privy to enjoy any future benefit Marriott will devise to reward developer purchasers, and ease of closing were our top priority to purchase direct. We made this decision after discovering TUG and read the pro/cons of resale versus developer purchase. As a matter of fact, if memory serves me right, we found TUG only because we were contemplating purchasing a Timber Lodge unit from Marriott.

BTW, is there empirical proof a majority of TUG members are resale owners? My gut feel tells me developer + developer/resale hybrids make up a majority of TUG owners. Again, my gut feel is rarely incorrect.

We have the same purchase story, except I wanted to look at DVC but compromised with Don for Marriott. It was the best compromise we've ever made once we found Hilton Head. :)

You could be right about the numbers on TUG, maybe I'm just feeling like an underdog. But even if we have equal direct/resale buyers here, I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming opinion for new purchases is BUY RESALE! (again in that gigantic RED font.)
 

timeos2

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The best way isn't the only way

I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming opinion for new purchases is BUY RESALE! (again in that gigantic RED font.)

Yes, it is. But do not read into that a majority have purchased that way themselves - especially the first buy (or two -thee...) but rather that experience has shown it to be the best value for all timeshares. Usually it is an honest attempt to steer newbies toward what most wish they had known prior to purchase rather than picking on buyers who purchased at retail.

The only time I feel that perhaps the best information going - buy resale to save big - gets ignored, and I'll admit it bugs me, is when long timers that should know better somehow get roped into a new, overpriced retail purchase. For some strange reason I almost feel it a personal insult that they failed to heed the warnings and fell for the line of bull that makes up most retail sales. The classic example being the nearly worthless, in absolute dollars, Wyndham VIP. There is no level of cost that could make the difference between developer purchase and resale purchase simply to get VIP an actual value since the program changes of 2003. None. Yet some have been talked into it and with tortured logic try to defend it. It cannot be done yet they appear to be under the retail sales pitch spell. I'll never get it.

There are other examples but you get the idea. Ultimately we all have to hope what we bought, however we bought it, is a value TO US. If so all is well and any talk of retail/resale or anything else is background noise as we enjoy some great trips. I hope you enjoy your ownership and that applies no matter how it got done or what you paid.
 

SueDonJ

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... Can you honestly say you would have? Would others here have?

m, I honestly don't know how to say it any clearer. The value we bought is in usage. It was made quite clear to us that there was no inherent financial value in our weeks. The deeds stipulate a property but confer rights of usage of the weeks subject to the governing docs of the resort. That's what we bought.

Considering that I had first looked at DVC and was familiar with a timeshare system that in no way conferred a property ownership, actually had an ending date for ownership, maybe Marriott's lack of financial guarantee didn't seem so "out there" to me. Once I browsed the resale markets for established Marriott resorts there was no question that we'd be better off thinking that we'd never see the upfront money again, and we'd better be darn sure that this was what we wanted for a vacation lifestyle. It was, and we were comfortable, still are comfortable, with our choice to buy direct.

I am sorry if you think that everything in my post was directed to only you. Unfortunately, that one line in your post was what set me off, but I in no way meant that you have been as insulting to some developer purchasers as others have been. I do, though, sometimes think that you paint with a very broad brush and dismiss easily the points made by other posters which contradict the points you're trying to make.

Your "rescind" posts are generally very informative and courteous. In fact, I've told a few folks here on TUG, too, that they should rescind while they can if it's apparent that they don't know what they've just bought. Your rescind posts, and mine, and several others', don't fall in the GIGANTIC 42PT RED FONT category that I really hate to see. Again, I'm sorry to mislead you there.

And yes, I would buy what and how I did all over again. We're very happy with our Marriott ownership and don't feel that we've been hoodwinked in the least.
 

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We have the same purchase story, except I wanted to look at DVC but compromised with Don for Marriott. It was the best compromise we've ever made once we found Hilton Head. :)

You could be right about the numbers on TUG, maybe I'm just feeling like an underdog. But even if we have equal direct/resale buyers here, I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming opinion for new purchases is BUY RESALE! (again in that gigantic RED font.)

I think you just are a little touchy about this Sue. Hey, I bought all my DVC points from Disney! I don't lose any sleep over my direct purchase or what anyone here at TUG says about direct/resale.

I about bought a platinum Marriott MB week direct last summer, but while it would have made barely a blip in financial status, I couldn't pull the plug on the deal from what I've seen on the resale market. Didn't make "business sense" to me.
 

lovearuba

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another option

I think you just are a little touchy about this Sue. Hey, I bought all my DVC points from Disney! I don't lose any sleep over my direct purchase or what anyone here at TUG says about direct/resale.

I about bought a platinum Marriott MB week direct last summer, but while it would have made barely a blip in financial status, I couldn't pull the plug on the deal from what I've seen on the resale market. Didn't make "business sense" to me.

Buy direct or buy resale, or dont buy at all since its cheaper to rent and you do not have to pay for those escalating maintenance fees.
 

Twinkstarr

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Buy direct or buy resale, or dont buy at all since its cheaper to rent and you do not have to pay for those escalating maintenance fees.

You're preaching to the choir, I own a Starwood week and luckily my resort might have had the smallest increase in the SVO network. It was still more than than my DVC points(3%ish).
 

melroseman

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I'm with Sue on this one...there is a certain smugness in many of these posts, that the resale buyers are smart enough to beat the system. As a developer purchaser on 2 of the 3 we own, I also feel a little offended at times. And it is strange that the posts that crowed the loudest about what a great deal they got resale are now yelling the loudest that they may not get the same deal as developer purchasers. As is usually the case in life, it's hard to have it both ways....
 

SpikeMauler

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This really is not a direct versus resale discussion. Rather, it is underlining that Marriott salespeople at least infer that there is some value to owning a week. It is not purely the right to reserve a week. People are told they are actually buying something, and the assumption is made that therefore there is a retained value. That's why timeshares differ from destination clubs, wherein people may plunk down thousands of dollars merely for a right to reserve without owning anything. Even thought they may absolve themselves of all responsibility if, in fact, the properties become worthless, by virtue of promoting ownership they are implying value. I believe that most people buy feeling they are holding onto something valuable.


There was no infering on my tour of MFC(in 2008). I was told outright that the $36,100 price for a Plat week was considered "Pre construction pricing", and that when the resort is completed in 2012 the price for a Plat week would be re priced around $72,000. He essentially told me my week would double in value within 4 years. Luckily, I researched Timeshares on TUG before my trip to MFC and kind of knew what to expect(tho I didn't expect him to tell me the Price would double in 4 years). I said no thank you and came home and purchased a resale week for 60% off the "Pre construction pricing". The point is I can see how someone who doesn't do their homework could believe this, and buy on the spot thinking it was not only a great vacation value but a great investment as well.
 

timeos2

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To start they need quantity

Lets not lose sight of the fact that anytime a new exchange system is given life - and that's all anything from Marriott for internal resort use really is, a simple new exchange company - one of the key items is a reasonable amount of inventory to tempt buyers. It would be very hard to believe that even a rather arrogant group like Marriott would think they could make things fly without that.

How do they get inventory? By offering extremely aggressive start up pricing and making the offer to any owner. A few, not all, have even offered bonus points to early adopters to get them to buy in. The best of those offers were forever not just one or two year bonus points. Every successful program rising from former weeks based ownerships has used some temptation tactics early. In fact it can be a true steal to get in at the start as they can really make it worth the small risk.

Later - a year, two or three - they may raise pricing, create tiers of owners (usually based on week / season quality, not how it was purchased but not always) and even block some groups (truly off season times as a possible example or resales if they are really out to kill that market) from joining at all. Once they get the base established and the start up costs covered they can afford to become picky and may raise the membership buy in as much as 400% over the first, start up pricing. And the price increase sticks when they are already covering costs, simply making more money and can afford to have people pass.

I'd find it hard to believe that Marriott would close out anyone or make the entry significantly prohibitive as it is rolled out. If ever there was a case for "pre-operation pricing" deals a new points system in this economy may be it. I'd predict tough sledding if they insist on a tier/purchase type punitive pricing policy from the start and easy sales if they are in line with what every other group has done at first. My advice would be that IF they are reasonable - maybe even aggressive - with the pricing at launch that owners who might bite take a careful look then. Most likely this is one case when there really will be a higher price and maybe far more restrictions later and those that miss the opening deals may never be able to get them again.

Ask the old time Fairfield owners that passed back in the early nineties and then faced thousands of dollars or even no way to upgrade their specific weeks to points which eventually took over that system for all intents. It took nearly a decade but points did supplement weeks there over time. I don't think Marriott could ever do that as they have sold far too many weeks while Fairfield had relatively few before moving all new sales to points only. The points system is what saved them from bankruptcy.

Bottom line if it is as open and aggressively priced as I expect when they open the door then be ready to buy in if it fits your use style. Waiting may be a big error IMO.
 

rsackett

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Once more, "any" is incorrect here. The value sold to me was in usage, not in real property. ...

Why then do you have a deed rather than RTU agreement, if they were selling you the usage only and in the end it would be of zero value?

Ray
 
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Dave M

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I think you misunderstand, Ray. The focus for SueDon and for many of us - and Marriott's primary selling point - was the value being in the usage, with no claims made that the timeshare would appreciate in value. I didn't see any statement in SueDon's post that Marriott was selling only the usage.
 

SueDonJ

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Why then do you have a deed rather than RTU agreement, if they were selling you the usage only and in the end it would be of zero value?

Ray

Where does this "usage only" and "zero value" come from?! The deed confers ownership in the property, but more importantly usage according to the governing docs. But a deed doesn't automatically guarantee an appreciating asset, does it? I said that the usage was sold to us as the value of our purchase, and that there was no representation of a financial investment during our sales presentations. That isn't the same thing at all as zero value. If we were to put our weeks on the market today we could get some dollar value for them, but it would be nowhere near what we paid.

How is that any different from the depreciating external resale market? Do resale buyers who buy specific week configurations for use, as we did, expect a timeshare to be an appreciating asset? If so, on what do you base that expectation?

We're getting far away here from the one line in one post with which I took exception:
... The illusion of property with retained value sells the weeks and is used in any sales pitch to justify the purchase. ...
The truth is simply, not all direct buyers suffer illusions and not all sales presentations are pitched by charlatans. Usage value is enough for me and many, many other informed direct buyers, as difficult as that may be to believe.
 

m61376

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I think you misunderstand, Ray. The focus for SueDon and for many of us - and Marriott's primary selling point - was the value being in the usage, with no claims made that the timeshare would appreciate in value. I didn't see any statement in SueDon's post that Marriott was selling only the usage.

Unless I misunderstand also, I think Sue's contention is that Marriott never made any promises- implied or otherwise- that the unit would have any inherent value and that its only value was, in fact, the usage. I think the vast majority of people bought (regardless of how they bought) with the assumption that their purchase retains inherent $ value and that, if they felt that their purchase would be worthless except as a right to reserve, most would not plunk down five four and five figures for such purchases. I am excepting those who bought low cost weeks primarily for the Flexchange benefit.

If, as Sue seems to imply, people bought only for usage and not with any understanding that their purchase would retain value, then buying a timeshare is no different than buying a destination club's right to reserve. The fact that Marriott offers a deed and touts sales as buying something of value (that may even go up in price as many have attested to hearing) implies that their is retained value, regardless of how they try to cover themselves (again, just as stock offerings do) that no monetary value is guaranteed.

And, yes, I understand and agree that a timeshare is not a monetary investment, but I do think most people, even if they bought understanding that, still have the expectation of some degree of retained value and not a worthless item (wrt monetary value, not worthless wrt conveying the right to reserve a week).

Thus, I feel that Marriott would be walking a slippery slope if they decimate the resale market. There may be a few people who would buy a timeshare anyway, but I think it would be hard to justify a purchase if you felt that the entire purchase price was merely buying a right to reserve and there was no inherent value retained in the purchase itself. I know Sue takes issue with the statement, but I respectfully disagree and feel that Marriott proffers the illusion of property with retained value as a vehicle for promoting their sales. They protect themselves with statements that insulate their responsibility to maintain any value, but certainly imply that there is a value nevertheless (as Ray pointed out, even in the simple fact that they make a big issue that the properties are deeded, aside from the emphasis on price increases implying that what you purchase will be worth more, etc., that many of us have heard).
 
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Dave M

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I agree that "most people" probably consider a timeshare as real estate and consider the residual value in deciding whether to purchase. However, as a TUGger before I purchased my second and subsequent timeshares, I didn't look at it that way. And even for my first purchase in 1994, Marriott sold it (Grande Ocean) as an investment in future vacations, not as real estate.

What seems out of place here is that some posters don't seem to be able to accept that not all of us fit into that category of "most people".
 

m61376

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I apologize if it any way I came across as not accepting that people of course buy for their own reasons- it really wasn't my intent. And anyone's reasons for purchasing are as good as anyone else's (that shouldn't need to be said).

I guess what I find so aggravating is that I think Marriott really has a good product, and I fear it is going to go down the same path as Starwood has. I must admit that I am surprised that timeshare buyers would shell out tens of thousands of dollars solely for the right to make reservations for a week each year (I actually thought that people elected to buy timeshares rather than destination clubs because they liked the idea of owning something- which implies an inherent value). However, as you point out, since at least most people consider the residual value, IF Marriott creates a system where resales become worthless, then I think they will have a very hard time making any sales. And that's bad for everyone.
 

kjd

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Chalk me up an another person who bought for the future value of usage as DaveM succinctly points out. That same concept is found throughout our daily life as we lease automobiles, obtain membership in a golf club, purchase a seat license at an NFL stadium, rent a house, purchase flying time on private aircraft such as NetJets, etc, etc, etc. It's considered a legitimate form of ownership.

All examples usually result in little or no equity when a customer is finished with the usage. Who buys a Bentley when one costs $225,000? Not many people. Folks should not be criticized here for taking the value of usage approach when a residual value or profit was never part of their original purchase decision.

The argument that Silver season anywhere is cheap is incorrect in my view. Even if a resale buyer is able to purchase a Silver or Bronze week for $100 they will still pay the same maintenance fee as a Platinum buyer. Often these weeks rent for 50% of the yearly maintenance fee or less. Those weeks do have some value when trading during flextime or during holiday weeks at a home resort. They have value only to the person who owns them.

You are getting basically what you paid for. An out of season week with a normally low trade value and high maintenance fees. Some of us can use these weeks but most can't. Whenever I go to a Silver season resort the buildings are more than half empty. I am sure there are some exceptions to this but I think they are few.
 

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I still can't wrap my head around doing these things to resales. If resales only account for 7% of sales, why would Marriott bother? Giving resales the same benefits (like in Disney), how does that impact their sales operation? unless someone here has stats, I doubt if the % will change no matter how resales are treated. Plus, I have to say based on what I have read around on TUG and other places, Disney seems to have the most respect amount the TSs.

Disney is a bit of a different animal though. Most of their units are directly on park properties. As such, Disney has a vested interest in not letting these units go for dirt cheap as that would undercut their hotel business.

I do agree that as far as timesharing goes, they are a pretty good operation, IMHO.
 

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Whether you choose to view your purchase as real-estate ownership or as pre-paid vacations is entirely independent of the resale vs. retail decision.

As a resale buyer, I appreciate those who pay retail, regardless of how you view your purchase. Without developer sales, there would be no resale market. It's a win-win situation.

What is truly unfortunate, is that so many retail buyers are unaware of the resale market. If someone with full knowledge decides that a developer purchase works best for them, I say go for it.
 

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I'm with Sue on this one...there is a certain smugness in many of these posts, that the resale buyers are smart enough to beat the system. As a developer purchaser on 2 of the 3 we own, I also feel a little offended at times. And it is strange that the posts that crowed the loudest about what a great deal they got resale are now yelling the loudest that they may not get the same deal as developer purchasers. As is usually the case in life, it's hard to have it both ways....


Wow. This post is genius! It's very interesting that those most outspoken about being grandfathered are the ones who paid the least. Some people want the best of both worlds but things don't always work out that way.

Sue, you are not alone. I bought 4 units direct from Marriott even after becoming a member of TUG. I did it specifically to ensure any changes to the system would affect my units the least.

M - yes, we spent money on Marriott timeshares without expecting any return. We feel our units were almost paid for with the vacations we took with our incentive points so anything we get back is like the cherry on the sundae - a nice treat. Just like when I buy new cars and I know they will depreciate as soon as I drive off the lot. We won't get nearly what we paid if we sell but we got enjoyment and lots of use out of our purchase. For this reason, we don't think about residual value but in general, we don't worry about the small dollars. If we did, we should never have spent any money on something so frivolous and unnecessary as a timeshare.
 
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Beverley

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I guess what I find so aggravating is that I think Marriott really has a good product, and I fear it is going to go down the same path as Starwood has. I must admit that I am surprised that timeshare buyers would shell out tens of thousands of dollars solely for the right to make reservations for a week each year (I actually thought that people elected to buy timeshares rather than destination clubs because they liked the idea of owning something- which implies an inherent value).

I am very worried that Marriott is about to ruin the product that I thought was so superior to all the other products out there at the times we purchased. :( We currently own six Marriott weeks ( all developer) and absolutely love the current process of reserving our weeks, using some and trading the others through II. Some of our trades are for Marriott points to cover hotel and airfare and other trades are for added weeks in different locations. If I had wanted a point system I would have bought more WorldMark or Hilton. Instead, we only have the equivalent of one week in WorldMark and in Hilton and the remaining 6 with Marriott.

The whole idea of a deeded week and the ownership of that gave us the idea that we would always be able to use the weeks or trade the weeks as we saw fit. :clap:

I do not trust point systems. :cool: There is too much of a possibility for the manager of points based programs to fiddle with the inventory. This has been suspected of RCI points to the degree that there was a class action suit brought against them. Then there are Starwood issues ... And then there was that salesman (I know it was a salesman) that explained to us last summer that Marriott going to a point system will allow Marriott to access all that rental inventory that is gotten via people turning in there units for points.

This salesman claimed that Marriott will begin their points system by using that inventory to "fund" timeshare trades/ reservations in the point system so that the program looks good as it gets off the ground. If Marriott can fund the timeshare reservations with that inventory then what stops them from taking the timeshare inventory to "fund" rentals at popular times at popular resorts later as Starwood is suspected of doing as of late. Then, later down the road do you have access to your week ... your purchase of time within a season ... if the rental market is more lucrative to Marriott and moneys do not come back to the BOD and timeshare owners can no longer get the weeks they want??? :bawl:

I am not a happy Marriott owner with what I think is going to be a travesty on the horizon! :annoyed: But what do they care ... they have trampled my ability to sell my units on the resale market when they dropped the ROFR and of course they are not able to sell it either .. :crash:

Beverley
 
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Latravel

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I think it's really important to save judgement of the new system until we see what it includes. You may really like it and knowing all the amazing people on TUG, they'll find a way to figure out all the tricks!
 

Beverley

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I really hope you are right.

Although, I have not seen that in other systems that changed over. Original points based systems seem to remain happy. However, they purchased that way. And what may start out not too bad, may not stay that way as an earlier poster suggests. What controls are there on the inventory?? I will admit I do not want to change as I like what I have and how it works.

As I mentioned I also do not trust what and /or how a points based system would work in the timeshare owners' interest. In addition, Marriott's secrecy about a new system that is rumored to start in June does not head in a direction that would build any trust. Marriott should be disclosing their plans with considerable lead time, not keeping this "great" new prospect behind such closed doors.

I do realize that they may not be able to say anything until they have it worked out, however, if they can not communicate at the very least six months ahead of time, then they are not ready to fairly start anything new. Rather it sounds like a new system will be foisted upon owners with out giving them enough time to really think it and understand it before it is in effect.

Beverley:ponder:
 
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