Will Marriott penalize resale owners?

[VacationPro]

Perhaps, but then who would buy gold, silver, bronze, sport, etc. seasons? Or for that matter, anything less than a 3bdrm? Kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If the most recently announced resorts are any indication, there will be very few of those weeks (especially silver and bronze) going forward. I would bet the sales pitch will emphasize every other year platinums versus EY "lesser" weeks. JMHO.

 

[Pit]

This is good business for Marriott. They have ROFR on most of their properties. So, they can devalue resales and pick them up cheap on the resale market. Then, they turn around and sell them for a premium, using the 6 month reservation advantage to justify buying from developer.

But, not so good for owners. It will be like Wyndam and Starwood (voluntary) where your developer purchase instantly losses tremendous value.

 

[aka Julie]

Perhaps, but then who would buy gold, silver, bronze, sport, etc. seasons? Or for that matter, anything less than a 3bdrm? Kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Exactly! When we bought 2 silver weeks at Barony over 9 years ago, the sales rep touted trading would be the way to go for us until my DH retired. Since then we learned how to maximize our trades, especially into higher seasons at other Marriott's.

Now if they go to a points system, this will no longer be true. If buying a a lesser season, will need to combine several years of points to trade/exchange into a higher season at another Marriott. Their "trading tactic" will no longer hold up.

 

[taffy19]

This is good business for Marriott. They have ROFR on most of their properties. So, they can devalue resales and pick them up cheap on the resale market. Then, they turn around and sell them for a premium, using the 6 month reservation advantage to justify buying from developer.

But, not so good for owners. It will be like Wyndam and Starwood (voluntary) where your developer purchase instantly losses tremendous value.

But if that gets known because of the Internet searches right after a purchase, who will buy unless there is a special reason or incentive? It has to hurt them eventually as people will investigate what they just bought on impulse and certainly when the purchase price is high. This is so easy to do now as most resorts have free internet access available in the condo or in the lobby.

It only will last until most people are aware of this problem. You have to be an idiot not to research this while you have time to rescind your contract.

 

[hotcoffee]

If you bought resale (which I did on one unit) why would you expect to be treated the same as a direct purchase owner? Marriott said you wouldn't be treated equally when you made your resale purchase. Marriott openly states that resale buyers will be treated differently by not granting MR points and withholding the services of a vacation advisor. I'm sure they could come up with more Draconian measures if they wanted to. They have access to good legal advice.

It's not in Marriott's interest to depress the resale market. However, it is in their interest to protect their sales. I think that they are more interested in protecting themselves from other TS competitors rather than worry about a small and insignificant resale market. (Resale market is estimated at about 7% of total TS sales) The Marriott resale market is currently depressed because of the economy not because of any possible changes to a trading system.

The rumored Marriott internal trading system would improve Marriott's competitive standing and add to their bottom line. If any Marriott owners have a beef it should be the direct purchase owners who were given MRP trade-in availability and then had their reward schedules devalued.

I think that you miss the point somewhat. I was told before I purchased resale that I would not be able to participate in Marriott's points program. That did not bother me because I got my ocean front 2BR unit cheaper than many resellers are asking for their ocean view 2BR units. In fact, I was surprised when Marriott passed on its right of first refusal.

I was also told of Marriott's plan to implement their own internal trading system. That did not particularly bother me either. As long as I could still exchange through II, it would still be okay with me.

However, reducing the reservation window to six months for resale owners (whether existing ones were to be grandfathered or not) cannot help but greatly reduce the resale value of a timeshare. Who would want to purchase a Marriott timeshare if they knew that they will probably not be able to reserve their desired week? One of the biggest criticisms against the timeshare industry is the difficultly of getting out once you get in. Were there to be a major change in ones life (like the death of a spouse), the remaining spouse might like to get out from under the yearly MFs. Marriott's action (should they really do this) would demonstrate that they are very much a part of the sleaze factor of the timeshare industry.

 

[Pit]

But if that gets known because of the Internet searches right after a purchase, who will buy unless there is a special reason or incentive? It has to hurt them eventually as people will investigate what they just bought on impulse and certainly when the purchase price is high. This is so easy to do now as most resorts have free internet access available in the condo or in the lobby.

It only will last until most people are aware of this problem. You have to be an idiot not to research this while you have time to rescind your contract.

Unfortunately, I believe only a small percentage of retail buyers figure out what they've done, before its too late. Most retail buyers aren't thinking about the resale implications of their "pre-paid vacations."

 

[CMF]

Man oh Man!

I can't wait to see the thread(s) that spring up when Marriott actually does something! Now that's entertainment!

Charles

 

[Pit]

I can't wait to see the thread(s) that spring up when Marriott actually does something! Now that's entertainment!

Charles

I wish they would hurry up and do it. I'm holding out for one of those devalued resales.

 

[m61376]

Another reason why I am confident that they won't treat resale buyers as second class citizens, in addition to the arguments already proffered, is that their plans include marked expansion over the next several years. Many Marriott buyers are happy Marriott owners, and one of their best referral sources are repeat customers.

Many resale buyers are amongst the first pre-construction purchasers for that newly announced resort. How many current, knowledgeable TUG members, for example, just bought in Grand Lakes? Bad press, owner discontent, etc. would be a bad marketing strategy going forward.

 

[Cindala]

Exactly! When we bought 2 silver weeks at Barony over 9 years ago, the sales rep touted trading would be the way to go for us until my DH retired. Since then we learned how to maximize our trades, especially into higher seasons at other Marriott's.

Now if they go to a points system, this will no longer be true. If buying a a lesser season, will need to combine several years of points to trade/exchange into a higher season at another Marriott. Their "trading tactic" will no longer hold up.

Our sales rep also encouraged us to buy gold telling us we'd have no problem trading into platinum season at our resort. So far he was right. However with a points system it stands to reason that my TS will be diminished in value and trading ability. You'd have a riot on your hands with everyone who purchased less than platinum.
Having a 12 month reservation window with a gold direct purchase probably wouldn't be on a level playing field with a 6 month reservation window with a platinum resale.
I think Marriott will have to look at both direct vs. resale purchases along with seasonal values to implement a fair internal trading system. Did I say fair?:hysterical: Just stirring the pot!!

 

[KathyPet]

Branding Dave as a "Marriott apologist" is extremely unfair. Dave is very reasoned and balanced in his approach to virtually every subject posted on these board and considering the hours of his personal time he has given to this board I think that that referring to him in that manner is very very insulting. If you hate Marriott so much then why did you buy one?

 

[Lawlar]

Definition of Apologist

No insult intended.

The word apologist means defender /supporter / ally / champion. I think anyone who has read Dave's 3000 posts would conclude he is a strong supporter of Marriott. He also has posted many times that Marriott has the right to change its reservation system to favor who it wants to benefit.

That's no insult. He and many of you love Marriott and that is fine by me.

What I meant is that I would like those who love Marriott to speak out when they see Marriott engage in activity that is harmful to the TS industry. Making false statements to customers is fraudulent activity. It isn't something that should be tolerated.

[If anyone misinterprets my post to suggest that Dave or anyone else favors fraudulent conduct - that wasn't what I meant. I meant I would love for the Marriott fans to speak out against practices that tarnish Marriott's reputation. Now if I wanted to insult someone I know some great insults! But I would never use them against a TUG member. And I do recognize that Dave posts some helpful info and he is loved by you guys. OK, but reading his posts in favor of Marriott's right to change its reservation system in a way that hurts its customers was like listening to someone run their fingernails down a blackboard.]

 

[taffy19]

Unfortunately, I believe only a small percentage of retail buyers figure out what they've done, before its too late. Most retail buyers aren't thinking about the resale implications of their "pre-paid vacations."

This is what this forum is for. Warn people to be careful when they buy on impulse and it doesn't matter where it is and from what developer. Also help them make the best of the timeshare and the exchange game once you own it which the forum does.

Personally, I didn't like that Marriott changed the reservation system once we owned it but they can do it as it is spelled out in the documents. It definitely made reservation at our resort a lot more difficult so you can take it or leave it and move on.

The Marriott is out to make the most money for their investors but I believe that they owe loyalty to their customers but also to the little ones (one week owners) or they should make you aware that making reservations is very hard for a holiday week when you buy so people are aware of it.

The Marriott and all other developers make you believe that exchanging is a piece of cake and making reservations is your right but they don't tell you that it depends on how good a customer you are. This is my gripe.

What should have been done right from the beginning besides having different prices for the best season but also have different maintenance fees for highly demanded weeks and the system would be so much fairer. Right now, the best weeks are having a big advantage of the maintenance fees that weak weeks also have to pay but I know that some States do not allow different pricing. That is your Government meddling with private enterprise. JMHO.

Of course, this is a perk some of us have and I am not complaining about that but is very unfair. I know that some of you do not agree and certainly not the ones who profit by renting the best weeks out. I even read that they do this via Red Week so more of the best weeks are rented out that owners cannot get and Marriott can't even stop it even if they would like to. Some people are just greedy and don't care about other owners.

 

[davidvel]

Personally, I didn't like that Marriott changed the reservation system once we owned it but they can do it as it is spelled out in the documents. It definitely made reservation at our resort a lot more difficult. . .

Just curious, what exactly was changed, when, which resort?

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Davidvel:

I think the change the post is referring to is the implementation of Marriott timeshare reservations being made consecutively or concurrently.

This change started about 4 or 5 years ago and likely was implemented not only make it easier for multiple week owners, but to save Marriott from receiving/processing multiple phone calls from those same owners.

 

[PerryM]

The solution is very simple - wear your aluminum helmet

THE smartest and most knowledgeable timeshare salesrep I’ve met in 10 years of timeshare ownership works at Marriott’s Timber Lodge – I met him 4th of July week this year. He too hears the rumors and believes them.

Many believe UFOs are for real too – these are level headed folks who have no desire to kill all humans and take over our planet. What can I say – many good folks believe in all kinds of stuff.

If anything these rumors should spur smart timeshare folks into buying resale versus from Marriott. I normally recommend that folks buy Marriott – unless they are wonks like us. However, if you believe in the Marriott salesreps then you should be buying Marriott resales like crazy. Marriott sounds like they are not exercising the ROFR on some villas, because of the real estate market, and folks panic all the time so this is a great time to buy resale.

Marriott will incorporate ALL owners on the day they should release their internal exchange system - I've already put my money where my mouth is in a $25 bet to a charity in Tug's name on this issue.

Thank the Marriott salesreps who believe in this dribble – buy buy buy resale.

Me, I’m protected – I wear my aluminum helmet most of the day and am protected from UFOs and timeshare salesreps. No one seems to bother me when I slap that puppy on....

P.S.
Can we put a moratorium on "Marriott's Internal Exchange System" - all this does is spread rumors and panic folks who don't have the knowledge we have? If and when Marriott does introduce such a scheme is the day to form new strategies.

We seem to be doing the work of the timeshares salesreps - spread panic and a reason to buy from Marriott versus resale.

 

[davidvel]

Davidvel:

I think the change the post is referring to is the implementation of Marriott timeshare reservations being made consecutively or concurrently.

Thanks. The reason I asked is that many people say that Marriott can change the reservation procedures in any way that they want due to "catch all" phrases in the documents that allow flexibility. I have always tried to distinguish between general "procedures/rules" and substantive changes that affect an owner's core rights. The recorded governing docs. (in CA at least) are as important as the deed and set forth the rights of the owner that cannot be changed without a change in those docs.

The 12month/13 month "rule" is actually in the recorded timeshare declaration for Shadow Ridge--not sure about other resorts.

 

[Dave M]

The 12month/13 month "rule" is actually in the recorded timeshare declaration for Shadow Ridge--not sure about other resorts.

That's true for most resorts. It's in my Grande Ocean docs, which were printed in 1992. However, the way that Marriott applies the 13-month rule is not in those documents - at least for G.O. and the three other fairly new resorts for which I have documents.

Typically the provision states that if you own two or more weeks at your home resort, you can reserve 13 months in advance if you reserve two (or more) consecutive or concurrent weeks. However, as Marriott applies the rule now, your ownership can be at different resorts. Some docs might be silent about owning at your home resort, but I don't think there are any that spell out that your ownership can be at any two (or more) resorts to take advantage of the 13-month reservation policy.

 

[taffy19]

Just curious, what exactly was changed, when, which resort?

We owned at the Marriott DSV-I and well before the 13 months reservation perk came into effect.

After that, we had a very hard time making reservations for use at our own resort in March when the wild flower may be in bloom. The month of March seems to be a very popular time in Palm Desert because of spring break, golf and tennis tournaments, etc.

We also were able to make reservations for President's week before but never again after the reservation rules changed. The 13 months rule wasn't spelled out in our documents but it was stated that they could make changes in the reservation system, I believe.

We much prefer a fixed week, fixed unit timeshare so traded up with the Marriott to get this and we don't have to deal with this rule anymore. Most people seem to prefer a floating system so everyone is happy but good weeks are gone in a matter of a few seconds. Good luck!

 

[taffy19]

Typically the provision states that if you own two or more weeks at your home resort, you can reserve 13 months in advance if you reserve two (or more) consecutive or concurrent weeks. However, as Marriott applies the rule now, your ownership can be at different resorts. Some docs might be silent about owning at your home resort, but I don't think there are any that spell out that your ownership can be at any two (or more) resorts to take advantage of the 13-month reservation policy.

Dave, I didn't know this is in our documents. I may still have them and look it up. You make me curious now. I honestly didn't know. We only owned at one resort so I may have missed it and I didn't belong to TUG until much later. I will let you know if it is in there or not.

If a Marritt DSV-I owner wants these original documents, email me and I can mail them to you, if I find them. We have no use for them anymore.

 

[thinze3]

FWIW

I can tell you first hand that people at Marriott's exec desk in Orlando are reading this thread!

It is probably best that we make sure we keep opinions separated from facts. I assure you that Marriott does not want its salespeople passing false statements around like they are facts either. This, however, is hard to monitor as the Marriott salespeople get paid mainly on commision and are typically willing to push the limit, especially to inexperienced buyers.


Terry

 

[Icarus]

Terry,

If they really wanted to, I believe that they could stop their sales people from spreading rumors like this. (true or not.)

-David

 

[m61376]

Sometimes I wonder if they derive some benefit from these rumors; if they monitor bulletin boards, as Terry suggests (and is quite plausible) they get to gauge consumer reaction and potentially avoid the pitfalls of a public relations nightmare.

Personally, I agree with the others who have posted that all current owners will be treated equally. Resale owners purchasing in the future may not enjoy the same benefits, but as an owner I would have a problem purchasing at a new resort pre-construction from Marriott despite the potential benefit of the points offerings which might be in place if I felt that not only would the resale value plummet, but it would become increasingly difficult to sell a week. Presently even educated buyers still buy direct under the right circumstances, counting on the value of their weeks increasing over time; for example, many original buyers at initial pre-construction pricing can sell their units at or above what they initially paid, while having the benefits of ownership and of the upfront points, and retaining the ability to trade for points. I think that many educated purchasers would be concerned if the resale value was undermined by limited reservation ability.

Of course, I would expect Marriott salespeople to tout it as an advantage for developer purchasers to have priority in reservations in the future. But I do think it would be a big mistake for Marriott to enact a policy that is dependent upon their buyers remaining relatively uninformed as to the resale market; given the pervasiveness of the Internet, I would expect more and more people to look at TUG and other sites as time goes on. Especially since their future plans include several new developments, I don't think they will antagonize a potential market.

 

[Cindala]

FWIW

I can tell you first hand that people at Marriott's exec desk in Orlando are reading this thread! Terry

Correct! And I know of at least one Marriott sales rep for sure that is a tug member. :ignore:

 

[Latravel]

It seems that so many people focus on the fact that the value of resales will plumment if Marriott implements a restricted reservation system. This may be a naive question, but doesn't Marriott clearly state that timeshares are for enjoyment only and not for investment purposes? The purchasing documents state this point clearly - we had to initial next to that point in the purchasing documents. It's a know fact that a timeshare purchase, whether resale or developer, is not an investment.

Therefore, given that fact, why would you expect your purchase to appreciate or even hold it's value, even if you purchased resale? When we purchased (both direct from Marriott), I expected the purchase to immediately depreciate (kind of like a new car). Since I was previously warned, I'm not expecting much back should I sell in the future. Anything back is like a cherry on the sundae!

Who knows, maybe Marriott is trying to attract buyers who don't care about the resale value?