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Will Marriott penalize resale owners?

Lawlar

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Time Will Tell

I

From an operations point of view, the Marriott system is amazing and is probably studied in business schools around the country. I have no doubt that they will come up with an equally good system that gives some priority to people who purchased from Marriott. I really believe in their business model but then again, I purchased from Marriott and I purchased Platinum. I did this on purpose because I didn't want to be worried, like people seem to be here, if they changed the system.

I hope you enjoy your 3 platinum weeks. If you use them every year and you get the weeks you want, and the cost is not a concern, then you may indeed have purchased something that will give you a lot of pleasure.

On the other hand, in time you may question the value of the purchase when you realize how little you can get if you try to sell your units and that the maintenance fees, which are really high for what you get, increase considerably every year. Also, you are now locked in to Marriott and you may at times in the future wish you could take advantage of other vacation options. Time will tell.

Good luck and I wish you well.
 
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JimIg23

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I'm selling my Marriotts and buying Westgate..... at least I will know where I stand!! :banana:
 

Steve

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Laugh all you want...

Yeah, through a program called ROFR. :rofl:

With exponentially rising maintenece fees, you'll be lucky in the future to get your money back on the resale market from a recent resale purchase. IMO


Terry

Laugh all you want to, but I've actually had Marriott sell a week for me that I purchased resale from a non-Marriott source. Guess what? It didn't take years. They sold it in less than 2 weeks from the day I signed the papers...and I made a 90% profit. Not bad.

Steve
 
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GeNioS

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I just had something come into my head today I thought I'd throw out there, then you can let it die.

A lot of people have said that Marriott will obviously sell their units first, before worrying about some pathetic owner's resale week. And apparently this is the case....I called and on one of my weeks they said, indeed, that it could take 2-3 years to sell it. (kudos for honesty I suppose.) I'm guessing the logic being that Marriott makes more money on their unit. But I don't think this has been well thought out by Marriott.

First, when Marriott sells a unit the first time, it's not all profit. There is a cost of building the resort they have to pay with that revenue. 40% seems like a pretty good-sized markup and I doubt it's that high. It seems logical to me that earning 40% on a second sale of a unit they already sold would be just as, if not more, profitable then selling one of theirs. Because that commission is 100% profit (all things like sales commissions, etc. being equal).

Secondly, if Marriott would require that all owner's resell through Marriott and sold their units first, prices, along with values, would remain high and I think that's something everyone can appreciate.

Either way, it doesn't make sense that Marriott would put its owners last in line.

(fyi...just read steve's post....they did tell me my other week would take less time...probably 6-12 mos.)
 
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bmccuske

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Laugh all you want to, but I've actually had Marriott sell a week for me that I purchased resale from a non-Marriott source. Guess what? It didn't take years. They sold it in less than 2 weeks from the day I signed the papers...and I made a 90% profit. Not bad.

Steve

Steve--was this at a resort that didn't have ROFR?
 

Icarus

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Steve--was this at a resort that didn't have ROFR?

I'm not sure it matters. Marriott will certainly resell a week no matter where you bought it. They make a 40% commission on the sale. There's no reason for them not to do that. The proposed change (if it's real or not) is to protect developer sales/resales and their fat profit margin. With the proposed change, they have a better answer for "why should I buy from you, when I can buy the same thing at resale at a deep discount". (besides the trade for points option and the lack of an adviser.)

There's a few people (some of them are here on TUG) who have been able to make money buying/selling timeshares. The rest of us are in the 99% range that don't make money buying/selling timeshares.

I'm happy for Steve that he made money on his deal. But that's not typical for the rest of us.

-David
 

bmccuske

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I'm not sure it matters. Marriott will certainly resell a week no matter where you bought it. They make a 40% commission on the sale. There's no reason for them not to do that. The proposed change (if it's real or not) is to protect developer sales/resales and their fat profit margin. With the proposed change, they have a better answer for "why should I buy from you, when I can buy the same thing at resale at a deep discount". (besides the trade for points option and the lack of an adviser.)

There's a few people (some of them are here on TUG) who have been able to make money buying/selling timeshares. The rest of us are in the 99% range that don't make money buying/selling timeshares.

I'm happy for Steve that he made money on his deal. But that's not typical for the rest of us.

-David

I think it's really cool that Steve was able to do that...I'm sure there's money to be made in the resale business somewhere, but I'm in it for the vacations!!

Where I was puzzled is why Marriott wouldn't have exercised ROFR when Steve originally purchased it--saving them about half of what they paid when they bought it from him.

Beth
 

Steve

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Steve--was this at a resort that didn't have ROFR?

No, it was a resort that DOES have ROFR...and Marriott has been actively exercising it. But, in my case, they took my week that I had purchased resale...marked up the price to what they are currently asking...and had it sold for me in less than 2 weeks. I couldn't believe they sold it so fast. They told me that mine was the only platinum week they had at the time, so I went straight to the top of the list. I was lucky...I had a platinum week at the right resort at the right time.

I don't say any of this to brag. I was just lucky. I mention my experience to let people know that it can happen. If Marriott has a buyer for your week, they'll sell it for you in order to get their commission regardless of whether you bought it from them directly or not.

Steve
 

bmccuske

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No, it was a resort that DOES have ROFR...and Marriott has been actively exercising it. But, in my case, they took my week that I had purchased resale...marked up the price to what they are currently asking...and had it sold for me in less than 2 weeks. I couldn't believe they sold it so fast. They told me that mine was the only platinum week they had at the time, so I went straight to the top of the list. I was lucky...I had a platinum week at the right resort at the right time.

I don't say any of this to brag. I was just lucky. I mention my experience to let people know that it can happen. If Marriott has a buyer for your week, they'll sell it for you in order to get their commission regardless of whether you bought it from them directly or not.

Steve

This is way cool!! I'm still learning the ropes and couldn't figure out why in the world they would do that. Congrats! Beth
 

Steve

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I think it's really cool that Steve was able to do that...I'm sure there's money to be made in the resale business somewhere, but I'm in it for the vacations!!

Where I was puzzled is why Marriott wouldn't have exercised ROFR when Steve originally purchased it--saving them about half of what they paid when they bought it from him.

Beth

Hi Beth,

I think it just depends on what inventory Marriott has at any given moment. Perhaps when I bought the week, they had plenty of similar weeks in inventory. Or maybe they had a smaller budget for purchasing ROFR weeks at that time. One thing I have definitely learned is that ROFR fluctuates...it's not a constant. What gets past ROFR today may not tomorrow...and vice versa.

Steve
 

bmccuske

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Hi Beth,

I think it just depends on what inventory Marriott has at any given moment. Perhaps when I bought the week, they had plenty of similar weeks in inventory. Or maybe they had a smaller budget for purchasing ROFR weeks at that time. One thing I have definitely learned is that ROFR fluctuates...it's not a constant. What gets past ROFR today may not tomorrow...and vice versa.

Steve

Steve--That makes sense. I'm going to try to low-ball offers with a hope that something will eventually stick. Not currently a Marriott owner but caught the bug when we were invited to to preview Summit Watch a couple weeks ago. Patience! Beth
 

JimIg23

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If Marriott creating a new system which restricts resale weeks' power (except Marriott sold resales) for internal trading, I can see salespersons telling new and current owners that if they sell it themselves it will be worth a lot less than selling thru Marriott, then using that as a benefit that Marriott will resale your week. It would make a very strong argument for owners to go thru Marriott. the problem will lie in if Marriott gets too much inventory (such as in a newer resort in active sales), Marriott may not be able to resale that week for over 2-3 years. That will leave owners facing two choices, waiting 5 years to get 60% of their purchase price or selling it resale on ebay for 5%. That could get ugly and eventually hurt them.
 

m61376

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I just had something come into my head today I thought I'd throw out there, then you can let it die.

A lot of people have said that Marriott will obviously sell their units first, before worrying about some pathetic owner's resale week. And apparently this is the case....I called and on one of my weeks they said, indeed, that it could take 2-3 years to sell it. (kudos for honesty I suppose.) I'm guessing the logic being that Marriott makes more money on their unit. But I don't think this has been well thought out by Marriott.

First, when Marriott sells a unit the first time, it's not all profit. There is a cost of building the resort they have to pay with that revenue. 40% seems like a pretty good-sized markup and I doubt it's that high. It seems logical to me that earning 40% on a second sale of a unit they already sold would be just as, if not more, profitable then selling one of theirs. Because that commission is 100% profit (all things like sales commissions, etc. being equal).

Secondly, if Marriott would require that all owner's resell through Marriott and sold their units first, prices, along with values, would remain high and I think that's something everyone can appreciate.

Either way, it doesn't make sense that Marriott would put its owners last in line.

(fyi...just read steve's post....they did tell me my other week would take less time...probably 6-12 mos.)

Actually, it does make sense, because Marriott is carrying the charges for any unsold weeks. Once they are sold, the owner assumes the MF's to carry the costs.

Unless I am mistaken, Marriott will not resell weeks (except for those acquired through ROFR) until they have sold their original inventory for that particular unit type. Similarly, from what I've been told at least, that's one of the reasons ROFR fluctuates- if their inventory for a particular season/view is low and/or if they've gotten a lot of interest in a particular season/view in excess of their inventory, they look to repurchase those units.

I agree with the above post- while relying on Marriott for selling a unit has proved convenient and even profitable for some, it would be extremely problematic for anyone trying to sell in the early years of a development when Marriott still has lots of units to sell if Marriott was to restructure their reservations program to the detriment of resale buyers.
 

tombo

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I am surprised that more owners aren't upset by the fact that resale units are marked in the Marriott computer to differentiate them from Marriott developer sold units for any changes they make in the future. They are telling everyone up front that when (or if) you sell your week you will be selling a product which will have diminished value over what they are selling.

Can you imagine buying a home that comes with pool rights and golf privileges, but the developer decides later that anyone who buys the house from you (resale) will no longer be able to access the pool or golf course drastically lowering the value of what you purchased from them. Of course the kind developer will sell your home for you raising the sale price by allowing the new owners the same priviledges you received when you bought. All the benevolent developer asks for is 40% of the proceeds from a home you OWN which YOU paid for in full and they have already profited on this home at least once before. What a deal.

Anyone who buys retail knowing up front that Marriott is going to devalue what you are buying from them if you purchase is IMO crazy. They tell you in the sales presentation all the things they do and are planning to do to reduce the value of the thing they are trying to sell you, and then expect you to buy. If you ever decide to sell, you will own exactly what they were telling you was a second class ownership with Marriott when you bought, a resale unit. If they make the changes talked about here, even a resale Marriott won't be worth buying. Excessive greed can kill anything, even the great accomodations that are Marriott.
 

m61376

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Tombo-
I think resale owners haven't been concerned about the fact that they bought resale being marked is that they realize upfront that they do not have the right to trade for points, so it is expected that their ownership would be so marked.

As for the rest, I totally agree.
 

Icarus

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I am surprised that more owners aren't upset by the fact that resale units are marked in the Marriott computer to differentiate them from Marriott developer sold units for any changes they make in the future.

They have to distinguish between private resales today because you can't trade for points if you didn't buy from the developer.

That has nothing to do with the future. Everybody that purchased resale knew that difference going in, and made the choice to save money and give up that option.

So what is there to be upset about? That's just the way it is. You have to ignore the salesman rhetoric about that, which has managed to find its way into this thread as usual. Yes, they know which units were purchased outside the system today. So what? That doesn't mean that any of the conjecture about it is true. The no trade for points on resales outside the system rule has been around for a long time.

-David
 

tombo

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My point about it being marked in the computer is that they already have a system in place to identify the "second class owners" who didn't purchase from Marriott, so they can easily and quickly implement new reservation rules if they decide to do so. I understand that many of the rumors discussed here might or might not ever actually become Marriott policy. The fact that so many salesman who work for Marriott keep saying that it is going to happen is reason enough to warrant concern. It is a possibility that you have to factor in to a Marriott purchase right now. If you buy resale now and the reservation window changes you will probably be grandfathered in and it probably won't affect your purchase. However if it does happen, it will drastically affect the value of what you own whether you bought retail or resale. Remember the old adage "Where there is smoke, there is usually fire".
 

PerryM

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Their lips are moving.....

My point about it being marked in the computer is that they already have a system in place to identify the "second class owners" who didn't purchase from Marriott, so they can easily and quickly implement new reservation rules if they decide to do so. I understand that many of the rumors discussed here might or might not ever actually become Marriott policy. The fact that so many salesman who work for Marriott keep saying that it is going to happen is reason enough to warrant concern. It is a possibility that you have to factor in to a Marriott purchase right now. If you buy resale now and the reservation window changes you will probably be grandfathered in and it probably won't affect your purchase. However if it does happen, it will drastically affect the value of what you own whether you bought retail or resale. Remember the old adage "Where there is smoke, there is usually fire".


Negative!

The Marriott salesreps have a vested interest in spreading rumors which benefit them and harm resales. That’s the ONLY reason they keep spreading this rumor.

I doubt but 1 in 10,000 sales is lost because Marriott has only a 24 day internal owner trading system. It would take but one phone call to II to make it 365 days. The reason they haven’t done even this is because the honchos at Marriott don’t care about this topic; they ONLY care about sales of timeshares.

Only Marriott timeshare salesreps and folks inside of Marriott who love to see TUG go nuts spread these baseless rumors. Outside of TUG (and maybe one more chat room) this topic means nothing.

If Marriott were serious about offering internal exchange rights they would take the immediate first step by lengthening the Marriott Only” window in II from 24 days to 365 days. Then I’d start to take the salesreps seriously.

Until then the ‘ol adage of “If their lips are moving they must be fibbing” should be the rule we follow and not that the salesreps are telling the truth on this one particular subject.


If you guys need to worry about something then an asteroid impacting North America is much more worthy of your concern – Tunguska was just 100 years ago. Now this is worthy of worrying about.

There are all kinds of things to worry about - Marriott rumors are the least of our worries.
 
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tombo

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I agree that most things salesmen say are half truths or outright lies and they are not to be believed. However, according to some here on TUG Marriott has admitted to considering the reservation change and to possibly starting their own exchange company. Once again these are TUG rumors. I know when Marriott announces it it will be fact, and not until then. However the proposed changes I am talking about has nothing to do with internal trades. I am talking about the alleged change which would allow owners of Marriott purchased weeks to reserve 12 months in advance while the resale owners would be limited to a 6 month reservation window. This will negativelly impact the value of an owner's week immediatelly upon announcement. It would also make buying a resale week a poor idea IMO.
 

dioxide45

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I am talking about the alleged change which would allow owners of Marriott purchased weeks to reserve 12 months in advance while the resale owners would be limited to a 6 month reservation window. This will negativelly impact the value of an owner's week immediatelly upon announcement. It would also make buying a resale week a poor idea IMO.

Actually it all depends on how you travel. Someone with great flexability who can travel on off weeks would be able to pick up some great resorts real cheap on the resale market and it would be a good idea for them.
 

PerryM

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Messing around....

I agree that most things salesmen say are half truths or outright lies and they are not to be believed. However, according to some here on TUG Marriott has admitted to considering the reservation change and to possibly starting their own exchange company. Once again these are TUG rumors. I know when Marriott announces it it will be fact, and not until then. However the proposed changes I am talking about has nothing to do with internal trades. I am talking about the alleged change which would allow owners of Marriott purchased weeks to reserve 12 months in advance while the resale owners would be limited to a 6 month reservation window. This will negativelly impact the value of an owner's week immediatelly upon announcement. It would also make buying a resale week a poor idea IMO.


There is NO WAY that Marriott will screw around with changing the 12/13 month reservation window within Marriott. None, zip, zilch; Marriott sale or resale.

The ill will that this would stir up would result in many class action lawsuits and bad press. Why would Marriott want to do such a thing? They would not.

Marriott may indeed release an internal, owner only, exchange system – expect it to look exactly like II. If that’s the case then why spend millions doing what 1 simple phone call to II could do in 5 minutes?

I understand that other developers have internal exchange systems but I doubt that Marriott has lost ONE sale to them over this subject. I’ve never heard of someone dumping Marriott in favor of Westin because they knew the difference and felt Westin had the better solution. Maybe there is someone but I’ve never heard of it and I’ve sat thru many Starwood sales tours and this was never brought up.

Again, I’m not losing a second of sleep over any of these topics – I have faith in Marriott as a sales/marketing organization who knows that screwing around with a good thing is just stupid.
 

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My point about it being marked in the computer is that they already have a system in place to identify the "second class owners" who didn't purchase from Marriott, so they can easily and quickly implement new reservation rules if they decide to do so. I understand that many of the rumors discussed here might or might not ever actually become Marriott policy. The fact that so many salesman who work for Marriott keep saying that it is going to happen is reason enough to warrant concern. It is a possibility that you have to factor in to a Marriott purchase right now. If you buy resale now and the reservation window changes you will probably be grandfathered in and it probably won't affect your purchase. However if it does happen, it will drastically affect the value of what you own whether you bought retail or resale. Remember the old adage "Where there is smoke, there is usually fire".
Present owners may be grandfathered but what will happen if these grandfathered units sell again? I doubt if they will be grandfathered too and these exchanges will be taken out of the new internal exchange system which will especially hurt owners who bought from the Marriott direct for making an exchange as less inventory will be available for them. Will these exchanges go to II?

I understand that the fear is about exchanging through the new internal exchange system and not so much about making reservations for the unit itself for occupation or to do with what you want (exchanging or renting) as that will not change. They already have perks for the multiple week owners that one week owners lost when this perk became common knowledge so smart re-sale buyers took advantage of that and I don't blame them. I read now that the 13 months reservation perk may always have been there but most people didn't know that and nobody ever mentioned it to us when we bought direct from the Marriott in the early 90s. I am still looking for my paperwork as I no longer remember what year we bought and I would like to read all the documents too they gave us at that time.

The Marriott should hurry up and announce to us what they are going to do or stop all rumors cold and don't let their salesmen make these statements either to facilitate their sale. This uncertainty is hurting us all.

I already know that we have lost a big chunk of our purchase price but that is due to the economy cycle we are in and the expensive airline fares and not because of the Marriott greed or changes in the system. I posted earlier about the Marriott greed under a different thread where it was mentioned that the MRPs program also is losing value because more points are needed to make that world trip we once got for giving up our week but since our week never gets more points than what was given at the time of sale, the value is no longer there and loopholes are tightened when they find out that we take advantage of them.

Buy for use mainly and at a resort you like to visit often and in driving distance too and you will be more content. We never thought that flying would become such an issue but it is today and you can't blame the Marriott for this either.

Now we wished we hadn't traded in our Palm Desert resort for Maui but we couldn't stand anymore making reservations at our resort and had to try week after week before we finally succeeded so I am very bitter towards the Marriott. They shafted us and good. JMHO. However, we love the new resort and will try to keep flying there year after year as long as our health lets us. We never thought of our age when we bought because both of us had never been sick and felt in good shape but after my husband's stroke in Maui, we realize now that we were too old to buy. Don't buy if you are too old and have no heirs as you will have to sell at a big loss unless you can own it for many years and inflation may get you the same dollar amount but isn't worth the same as everything is more expensive then.

However, once you have used the timeshare many years and have enjoyed it, you cannot complain because a timeshare is not real estate. This is what people should know right from the beginning and should be plastered all over the sales contract and legal documents too. In that case, the developers will do anything to keep the re-sale values high rather than trash them by differentiating between wholesale and retail buyers.
 

hotcoffee

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I am surprised that more owners aren't upset by the fact that resale units are marked in the Marriott computer to differentiate them from Marriott developer sold units for any changes they make in the future. They are telling everyone up front that when (or if) you sell your week you will be selling a product which will have diminished value over what they are selling.

Can you imagine buying a home that comes with pool rights and golf privileges, but the developer decides later that anyone who buys the house from you (resale) will no longer be able to access the pool or golf course drastically lowering the value of what you purchased from them. Of course the kind developer will sell your home for you raising the sale price by allowing the new owners the same priviledges you received when you bought. All the benevolent developer asks for is 40% of the proceeds from a home you OWN which YOU paid for in full and they have already profited on this home at least once before. What a deal.

Anyone who buys retail knowing up front that Marriott is going to devalue what you are buying from them if you purchase is IMO crazy. They tell you in the sales presentation all the things they do and are planning to do to reduce the value of the thing they are trying to sell you, and then expect you to buy. If you ever decide to sell, you will own exactly what they were telling you was a second class ownership with Marriott when you bought, a resale unit. If they make the changes talked about here, even a resale Marriott won't be worth buying. Excessive greed can kill anything, even the great accomodations that are Marriott.


You and I think alike. I don't believe that there should be ANY letter "R" in front of resale purchasers' records. Marriott should be treating all their owners the same regardless of how the timeshare was purchased. Doing so would make their timeshares the industry's must desireable. I don't think it would hurt Marriott at all. In fact, it would more likely make them seem to the public like a consumer-oriented company rather than a something similar to the automobile dealer. At least, if you make a bad decision when buying an automobile, you can sell the car for what you can get; and the buyer gets the whole car - not just the engine.

However, having said the above, I knew when I purchased my resale that I would not be included in the points program. Nevertheless, it is unfortunate that Marriott misses out on an opportunity to differentiate themselves from the rest of the industry by becoming more consumer-oriented.
 

timeos2

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Rochester, NY
I am surprised that more owners aren't upset by the fact that resale units are marked in the Marriott computer to differentiate them from Marriott developer sold units for any changes they make in the future. They are telling everyone up front that when (or if) you sell your week you will be selling a product which will have diminished value over what they are selling.

Can you imagine buying a home that comes with pool rights and golf privileges, but the developer decides later that anyone who buys the house from you (resale) will no longer be able to access the pool or golf course drastically lowering the value of what you purchased from them. Of course the kind developer will sell your home for you raising the sale price by allowing the new owners the same priviledges you received when you bought. All the benevolent developer asks for is 40% of the proceeds from a home you OWN which YOU paid for in full and they have already profited on this home at least once before. What a deal.

Anyone who buys retail knowing up front that Marriott is going to devalue what you are buying from them if you purchase is IMO crazy. They tell you in the sales presentation all the things they do and are planning to do to reduce the value of the thing they are trying to sell you, and then expect you to buy. If you ever decide to sell, you will own exactly what they were telling you was a second class ownership with Marriott when you bought, a resale unit. If they make the changes talked about here, even a resale Marriott won't be worth buying. Excessive greed can kill anything, even the great accomodations that are Marriott.

AMEN. Once you own it you own it and the developer has no business in the picture. If they insist it's not a wise move to "own" halfway or less.
 

PerryM

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I the goal is to kill.....

If the goal is to kill the resale market, and arguably that what all the rumors are all about, then Marriott could easily do so without doing a single thing! I mean instead of 60% resales to current sales price how about 15%?

The ‘ol FairField now Wyndham folks face this – buy a $35k Wyndham week and by the time you get to your car it’s worth $5k. Wyndham sells a boat load of timeshares every day. Marriott could easily do this too – by not doing a single thing.

How?

Simple, Marriott would stop exercising the ROFR and watch resales fall to 15% of current sales and then buy them for peanuts.

So if you guys want to worry about Marriott killing the resale market this way leaves no fingerprints – no bad press – no class action lawsuits – just do nothing.


What shall we worry about next?
 
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