Will Marriott penalize resale owners?

[tombo]

Supply and demand I know – it’s all in the minds of the buyers and sellers.

They should also suggest that selling their Marriott for 60% of the current Marriott price will result in more money in the owner’s pocket.

But Marriott won’t do such a thing since there are foolish Marriott owners hell bent on holding their own fire sales

So hopefully any Marriott owner stumbling upon this thread should be asking for 60% of current Marriott sales prices – why allow Marriott to buy your unit for less than 60%?

The more Marriott owners know these facts the higher resale prices – this helps ALL Marriott owners. The buyer is never going to get that firesale price anyway. (Unless Marriott sees the week as a dog and doesn’t want it – the bottom-feeders are welcome to those weeks – they pay the same MF as the Platinum Plus owners. Woo Hoo)


The ROFR benefits Marriott owners FIRST and the developer SECOND and the bottom-feeders last

If every Marriott owner asked for 60% of current Marriott sales the ROFR would NOT be an issue.

The ROFR is aimed squarely at the week-kneed Marriott owner hell bent on selling their unit for less than 60% - simply up your asking price and the ROFR will work for you and enrich your family's well being.

But if you're in a financial bind and need a few bucks go ahead and sell it for less than 60% and you will have your sale. Marriott will make a profit and the bottom-feeder is left to swim for another firesale.

Perry I don't believe you can possibly believe what you post. I feel like it has to be tongue in cheek sarcasm.

You somehow say that all any owner has to do is raise their sale price to 60% of Marriott's retail price and they will sell it for a good price. Why stop there, raise it to 90%, heck make it 100% of the retail price. You will have the same thing either way, a pipe dream ad making yourself and other Marriott owners proud of the high prices resale weeks are bringing. The ads by "fools" at a lower price make you mad, but those ads might actually create a sale for the owner.. Raising the prices doesn't increase the number of buyers willing to purchase your week, it severelly limits who is willing to buy. There are thousands of resale Marriott weeks for sale at any given time, and many remain for sale for months or years with no offers. The only way to sell most of these weeks is to keep lowering your price until you find a buyer. Holding on to an unreasonable price that doesn't generate an offer from a buyer for years is as you like to say "foolish".

There is an owner who posted a thread ( http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79493) talking about many weeks for sale at his resort on red week with owners continuing to drop prices, however in about 10 months he said none have sold. They don't understand Perrynomics. Perrynomics say that when you offer a week for sale at 40% of retail and you receive no offers, the obvious answer is to raise your price to 60% or more of retail and a buyer will appear. In regular economics as the price of an item increases, the number of buyers decreases. Obviously all the economic books are wrong and should be replaced with a book on Perrynomics. It would make a great fictional read.

 

[davidvel]

If anything Marriott should send a simple eMail to ALL Marriott owners explaining the ROFR – and suggest that selling their Marriott for peanuts will result in the buyer shoved aside and Marriott takes over – if Marriott wants that week.

Absolutely, because those owners who are trying to sell, WANT to sell for peanuts--if they only had an e-mail from Marriott they would raise their reserve and then instantly have a buyer at the higher price--dumb desperate sellers never got the e-mail. Apparently all the buyers got a different e-mail and don't bid up the price to 60% of retail.

They should also suggest that selling their Marriott for 60% of the current Marriott price will result in more money in the owner’s pocket.

Of course, the owner will instantly get more money as there will be a buyer at that price.

Maybe we should send a similar e-mail to all those people who can't sell their house to cover their mortgage, then they would realize, just raise your asking price for your house above the loan amount and then somone will buy it and you can pay off the loan and not go into foreclosure.

This is an education problem and NOT a supply and demand problem since there really isn’t a free market here with the ROFR – that’s what the ROFR papers I’ve read here seem to keep pointing out – I believe them.

Absolutely. Just educate people in the market what to sell for (and buy for?) and that will trump basic market principles. Marriott should educate itself too. It should double or triple its retail prices and charge the same for silver and Platinum weeks: "voila" more money in MARRIOTT'S pocket!

So hopefully any Marriott owner stumbling upon this thread should be asking for 60% of current Marriott sales prices – why allow Marriott to buy your unit for less than 60%?

Bingo! Those silly sellers want to sell for less for some reason. If they only read this thread they would realize that it is better to sell for more, than sell for less!

 

[EZ-ED]

LOL - this thread is a hoot!!!

I have a two step process for TS salespeople, including Marriott's.

Step 1:

remember this "ALL TIME SHARE SALESPEOPLE STRETCH THE TRUTH - aka LIE"

Step 2:

If you see the TS sales persons lips move then "go to step 1"

Follow my two step program and you will never have to worry about what a timeshare sales person tells you. :whoopie: Make them put it in writing.

 

[PerryM]

Perrynomics 101

Perry, the problem with your logic is that buyers determine what a unit is worth, not the seller. The seller can ask for 60%, 100%, or the moon, but the buyer decides what its worth.
...

Ok, just tell Marriott that you won't pay the $80k for week 52 at MountainSide but only it's true worth $20k....

.
...
replaced with a book on Perrynomics.
...

I like that - I'm going to steal that great motto...


Ok, I now understand our failure to communicate here - It's Perrynomics! I must confess it's not my idea but Marriott's; I assumed all of you knew my principles and thus glossed over detailing them.

You guys think that the Marriott system is a free market - subject to the ebb and flow of supply and demand. It's not and it runs under a completely different set of rules. The ROFR is one of them. THE MARRIOTT SYSTEM IS A RIGGED MARKET – IT IS NOT A FREE MARKET! When was the last time Marriott's selling price flowed with the free market - right now it should be plummeting in price - why not???

I think some here are so confused that I'm not going to debate the issue simply lecture the finer points of the Marriott World of Economics (Perrynomics; I like that term).

Let's take the example of a week 52 at MountainSide. I don't have the latest sales price but it's somewhere around $80k to $90k+.

Marriott sells week 52 for $80k and will not budge on the price – they don’t haggle, they won’t give you a “frequent buyer” discount, they won’t give you a “Holiday Sale” – nothing but $80k. They will play around with MRPs which can be very substantial.

MountainSide is 8 years old and long ago sold out. However, Marriott sticks with its marketing plan even here. Timeshare developers selling price is about 4 (four) times the real estate value. We all know this – 50% of the selling price is marketing and sales related. Of the remaining 50% half of that is for profit, operations, and contribution to the Marriott name. That leaves just 25% of the selling price for the real worth of the Marriott; $20k in this example.

Will you ever see a MS Week 52 for sale on eBay for $20k? You could but no eBay buyer will ever become the proud owner at that crazy price – Marriott will exercise the ROFR and recycle the unit. It MUST protect the imaginary market it created.

Now there are plenty of timeshare systems out there where free market forces do work. Wyndham is such an example. If Wyndham had a comparable week to sell for $80k you would find many units for sale at $12k!!!! Wyndham resales follow the 15% of developer prices almost universally.

Wyndham is an example of where the laws of supply and demand crash with Perrynomics - the developer sells for 4 times real estate value and then turns their back and the laws of supply and demand take over and resales are 15% of developers'.

Since we owners live in the market Marriott created you can’t use the normal laws of supply and demand - you can’t mix and match them – Marriott will see to that.

This is why if Marriott removed the ROFR resale Marriott prices would gravitate towards their true worth – 25% of the current sales price. Then seller forces would reduce that even further. I don’t know about you guys but I don’t want to be part of that. Keep the dream alive by honoring the ROFR!

For all these reasons I believe we live in a "Timeshare Bubble" that will one day burst. I can't tell you when but at some point the true laws of supply and demand will take over. Until then use Perrynomics when you sell your unit; demand higher prices when you sell.

Conclusion:
Sell your unit for 60% of Marriott's selling price and you will get 140% more than the true worth of the real estate value. If everybody does this we will keep the dream alive. Don't sell for less and try to screw us!!!!

 

[AwayWeGo]

Perrynomics, Shmerrymomics.

Until then use Perrynomics when you sell your unit; demand higher prices when you sell.

You can demand higher prices all you want, but all the unit will ever sell for is what somebody will offer for it -- i.e., the level to which its true value has already plummeted.

That doesn't mean regular walking-around riffraff can buy it at its post-plummet actual-value price. It only means that all the owner can receive by selling it is its actual shrunken value.

Without propping up the market value in any way, ROFR makes it so that only the timeshare company gets to buy units at true resale value.

The purposes of ROFR are (1) to augment the satisfaction of full-freight owners by excluding bargain buyers from the rarefied air of ownership in some particular timeshare chains & (2) to stack the deck in favor of the timeshare company.

For regular people, ROFR = ROFL.

For the timeshare company, ROFR = laughing all the way to the bank.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[JimIg23]

Without propping up the market value in any way, ROFR makes it so that only the timeshare company gets to buy units at true resale value.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Based on the values of most timeshares, I tend to agree with this. However, at the end of the day, if someone wants to buy a Marriott resale, after being ROFRed six times, unless they get lucky they have to offer around the ROFR price to buy it. I was ROFRed more times than I can remember, but at the end of the day, I wanted to buy Marriott so I raised my offer (to the level of ROFR learned from TUG). Now, because of my contracts there are probably 6-8 people who sold their Marriotts, but I only got 2 of them. Am I upset, not really, because I knew that going in. Now, Marriott may waive ROFR sometimes, but I have yet to hear them passing on a TS that was 25% of what they could sell it for.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Roffer & Roffle In The Real World ?

However, at the end of the day, if someone wants to buy a Marriott resale, after being ROFRed six times, unless they get lucky they have to offer around the ROFR price to buy it. I was ROFRed more times than I can remember, but at the end of the day, I wanted to buy Marriott so I raised my offer (to the level of ROFR learned from TUG). Now, because of my contracts there are probably 6-8 people who sold their Marriotts, but I only got 2 of them.

OK, if I'm understanding this correctly -- a big if in my case -- those 6-8 times your offers got roffered by the timeshare company, the sellers got no more money by being forced to sell to the timeshare company than they would have got from you. That is, you were prevented from buying lowball because the timeshare roffered your lowball deals right out from under you.

Then later, those 2 times when your resale offers went through, was that because you bid higher the current ROFR price? Or was it because the timeshare company was not exercising ROFR at the time?

I'm a strong believer that roffer equals roffle. But if you completed a resale by offering more than the timeshare was offering on its roffers, then that sure looks like an instance where roffer did support the resale value, no ?

Then again, if it was merely the case that the timeshare company wasn't exercising roffer at the time, then ROFR still = ROFL, right ?

In any case, it's nice to have somebody's actual experience with ROFR added to the discussion, which so far has been heavier on theory than on what happens in the real world.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[JimIg23]

OK, if I'm understanding this correctly -- a big if in my case -- those 6-8 times your offers got roffered by the timeshare company, the sellers got no more money by being forced to sell to the timeshare company than they would have got from you. That is, you were prevented from buying lowball because the timeshare roffered your lowball deals right out from under you.

The bids were pretty much at what Tuggers thought were the ROFR levels.[/COLOR]

Then later, those 2 times when your resale offers went through, was that because you bid higher the current ROFR price? Or was it because the timeshare company was not exercising ROFR at the time?

Again, maybe a few hundred dollars more than what Tuggers have said was the ROFR line, but not much more...

I'm a strong believer that roffer equals roffle. But if you completed a resale by offering more than the timeshare was offering on its roffers, then that sure looks like an instance where roffer did support the resale value, no ?

Then again, if it was merely the case that the timeshare company wasn't exercising roffer at the time, then ROFR still = ROFL, right ?

This is where our opinion probably splits a bit. Whether some believes ROFR helps or hurts, ROFR creates a level where buyers usually need to be to buy into Marriott. It does not stop someone selling it dirt cheap (although to Marriott) nor does it stop some units under Marriott's usual ROFR to pass. It comes down to if you want to buy Marriott, you either have the patients to select a very low price and wait it out (which could be 25 contracts and 5 years, or never) or pay around what ROFR is. People who want Disney resale pretty much have to pay 80-85% of retail to buy resale. Does that mean they are buying way over market? Maybe,maybe not, but if they want DVC, that's the price you pay.


In any case, it's nice to have somebody's actual experience with ROFR added to the discussion, which so far has been heavier on theory than on what happens in the real world.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

See above............

 

[PerryM]

Based on the values of most timeshares, I tend to agree with this. However, at the end of the day, if someone wants to buy a Marriott resale, after being ROFRed six times, unless they get lucky they have to offer around the ROFR price to buy it. I was ROFRed more times than I can remember, but at the end of the day, I wanted to buy Marriott so I raised my offer (to the level of ROFR learned from TUG). Now, because of my contracts there are probably 6-8 people who sold their Marriotts, but I only got 2 of them. Am I upset, not really, because I knew that going in. Now, Marriott may waive ROFR sometimes, but I have yet to hear them passing on a TS that was 25% of what they could sell it for.

Q.E.D.

The rest of you guys can keep demanding lower selling prices if you like; me I demanded a higher selling price of 60% to 80% of Marriott's and I got them.

Try it you'll like it.

But if you are hell bent on holding a firesale realize that ONLY Marriott will profit from your foolish decision.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread - getting boring and I know it will be back next week.

C U

 

[tombo]

Q.E.D.

The rest of you guys can keep demanding lower selling prices if you like; me I demanded a higher selling price of 60% to 80% of Marriott's and I got them.

Try it you'll like it.

But if you are hell bent on holding a firesale realize that ONLY Marriott will profit from your foolish decision.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread - getting boring and I know it will be back next week.

C U

Bored equals too many people with facts on their side? The fact that everyone (including you) knows that a week for sale for $20,000 will never sell when identical weeks are for sale for $10,000 is non-refutable.The economic models absolutelly refute the ROFR at 60% regardless of prevailing prices argument. Of course Perrynomics are strong in your posts. You espouse it, but as you read the responses you realize how ridiculous it sounds. You tell owners to hold out for 60% of retail for months, years, or decades while many other owners sell their weeks for what the market will bear. Your converts will be strong and refuse to sell for any price that any buyer will pay just to keep Perry's resale price high. The thousands of weeks that sell too cheap by Perrynomic standards will still sell while your converts hold on to their weeks to keep the resale prices high. Drink the Kool-aid Perry's lambs. Helter Skelter and trust Perry against all rational reasoning.

Perryland will be opening in Orlando when? I am looking forward to visiting irrational Perryland and riding the ROFR up and down roller coaster. Actually Perryland will always remain a fairy tale and the all too real ROFR up and down roller coaster is a ride I hope to never ride again.

 

[timeos2]

Bored equals too many people with facts on their side? The fact that everyone (including you) knows that a week for sale for $20,000 will never sell when identical weeks are for sale for $10,000 is too straight forward for the ROFR at 60% argument. You espouse it, but as you read the responses you realize how ridiculous it sounds. You tell owners to hold out for 60% of retail for months, years, or decades while many other owners sell their weeks for what the market will bear. Your converts will be strong and refuse to sell for any price that any buyer will pay just to keep Perry's resale price high. The thousands of weeks that sell too cheap by Perrynomic standards will still sell while your converts hold on to their weeks to keep the resale prices high. Drink the Kool-aid my lambs. Helter Skelter and trust Perry against all rational reasoning.

Always remember Wastegate Planet Hollywood Tower Of Terror when reading what has got to be tongue in cheek posts for a laugh, although well done if they are (or a really really good job of self-delusion and the true value of various timeshares). As you note there is no rational basis for the claims in the real world. Great reading though.

 

[ricki999]

bored = hijacked threads that end up being ROFR debates

 

[aka Julie]

bored = hijacked threads that end up being ROFR debates

Amen to that!

 

[Dave M]

Those who wish to discuss the merits of Marriott's ROFR further should do so in this linked thread dedicated to the topic, not in this thread.

 

[aka Julie]

Those who wish to discuss the merits of Marriott's ROFR further should do so in this linked thread dedicated to the topic, not in this thread.

Good idea. Thanks, Dave.

ROFR is just one of those hot buttons. There are 2 (or more) differing opinions on the subject and neither one is going to give way on their position.

 

[taffy19]

In California a Marriott timeshare is real estate. You receive a fractional deed to a condominium unit restricted and benefitted by CC&Rs and a timeshare declaration. Marriott simply has management and licensing contracts with the HOA and must abide by those recorded docs.

Yes, a deed is considered real estate in California but a timeshare deed has so many rules, restrictions and limitations and the rules are written in such a way that they are very vague and can be changed at any time to the advantage of the Marriott or any other big developer. All you really have is the right to occupy the unit for a specified amount of time and use the furnishings and common grounds with all the amenities that are at the resort for free or with an additional charge.

Most real estate appreciates in value but timeshares seldom do. They are an investment in quality vacation time and I am not complaining as we certainly have used and enjoyed all our timeshares starting in January 1984 in California and still go back every year and the same for Hawaii most every year.