Will Marriott penalize resale owners?

[Lawlar]

Paper Doesn't Erase Lies

This may be a naive question, but doesn't Marriott clearly state that timeshares are for enjoyment only and not for investment purposes? The purchasing documents state this point clearly - we had to initial next to that point in the purchasing documents.

Therefore, given that fact, why would you expect your purchase to appreciate or even hold it's value, even if you purchased resale? :

I use to represent sales companies (in an industry I won’t mention in order to protect the guilty). Those clients use to have me prepare all kinds of written disclosures and waivers for their customers to initial and sign. We even put in bold large print that nothing the salesperson said was to be relied upon.

It was all a joke. Everyone knew that the salespersons were going to lie big time until they got the sale. The customers were worn down and they didn’t know what they were signing. [AT least one of my former clients went to jail for this kind of stuff. The Attorney General prosecuted others and it wasn’t the least bit impressed by all of the legalese intended to protect the seller.]

The Marriott salesperson at NVC last month told us that if we bought a TS we would be able to sell within a couple of years at a profit. The whole presentation was based on how we could buy in at phase 1 pricing and then profit as the new phases went on the market at higher prices. Do you think Marriott doesn’t know those types of pitches are being used? Marriott is too smart not to know what is going on.

[I probably will have to spend a few centuries in purgatory as punishment for some of those legal documents that I wrote.]

 

[bogeygolf]

So here is another very interesting tidbit that I found out. I recently spoke with corp. sales in FL who sells all marriott resorts. I spoke with a regional sales mgr and I asked him about the rumors that are going around about resale owners only having 6 months to reserve if marriott implements a new internal trading system. He confirmed that he also heard the same rumors. He also told me that Marriott has been discussing an internal trading systems for years and they are still discussing but there is no decision on whether they will implement or not. I told him that if this rumor becomes true it would hurt all current owners as resales prices would plummet. Well he said, then owners can let Marriott sell it for them as resale but THROUGH marriott. To which I said what do you mean? ( I did not know until my wife reminded me later that evening marriott sales rep had told us during one of our tours).

So as it turns out marriott will resale your week for a outrageous 40% commision however the new owners of this sale according to the sales mgr would be considered buying through marriott instead of private party resale thus would qualify for 12 month reservation window. So think about it, this is a win win for marriott b/c they will tell current owners selling it on your own you will get nothing but sell it through us and you will get much more minus the 40% (greedy marriott) which bottom line would probably net you more than selling it on your own.

If this becomes true, from a business perspective it makes a lot of sense for marriott. More owners will sell through marriott instead of on their own, marriott will make 40% on each deal and still keep resale prices high, thus retaining the value of marriott properties. Two question that come to mind, are potential resale buyers willing to a pay a premium to buy through marriott to get 12 month or will they live with the 6 month windows for buying cheap? And how many owners will sell on their own vs. sell through marriott(inventory of private resale vs. inventory of resale through marriott)?

What do you guys think???

 

[hotcoffee]

So here is another very interesting tidbit that I found out. I recently spoke with corp. sales in FL who sells all marriott resorts. I spoke with a regional sales mgr and I asked him about the rumors that are going around about resale owners only having 6 months to reserve if marriott implements a new internal trading system. He confirmed that he also heard the same rumors. He also told me that Marriott has been discussing an internal trading systems for years and they are still discussing but there is no decision on whether they will implement or not. I told him that if this rumor becomes true it would hurt all current owners as resales prices would plummet. Well he said, then owners can let Marriott sell it for them as resale but THROUGH marriott. To which I said what do you mean? ( I did not know until my wife reminded me later that evening marriott sales rep had told us during one of our tours).

So as it turns out marriott will resale your week for a outrageous 40% commision however the new owners of this sale according to the sales mgr would be considered buying through marriott instead of private party resale thus would qualify for 12 month reservation window. So think about it, this is a win win for marriott b/c they will tell current owners selling it on your own you will get nothing but sell it through us and you will get much more minus the 40% (greedy marriott) which bottom line would probably net you more than selling it on your own.

If this becomes true, from a business perspective it makes a lot of sense for marriott. More owners will sell through marriott instead of on their own, marriott will make 40% on each deal and still keep resale prices high, thus retaining the value of marriott properties. Two question that come to mind, are potential resale buyers willing to a pay a premium to buy through marriott to get 12 month or will they live with the 6 month windows for buying cheap? And how many owners will sell on their own vs. sell through marriott(inventory of private resale vs. inventory of resale through marriott)?

What do you guys think???

Your post is interesting because the sales rep who told me that he believed that Marriott was going to implement a 6 month reservation window for resale owners also told me that Marriott was looking at going into the resale business itself. I had forgotten about that comment until I read your post. I never asked him for any details.

 

[dioxide45]

Your post is interesting because the sales rep who told me that he believed that Marriott was going to implement a 6 month reservation window for resale owners also told me that Marriott was looking at going into the resale business itself. I had forgotten about that comment until I read your post. I never asked him for any details.

Marriott is already in the resale business. You can have Marriott sell your week for you. Looks like the rep doesn't know as much as he thought.

 

[bogeygolf]

Marriott is already in the resale business. You can have Marriott sell your week for you. Looks like the rep doesn't know as much as he thought.

I think what hotcoffee meant was that marriott is probably looking to expand their resale business and grow it. If you think about it they have a lot of very nice resort that have already sold out and resale would be another way to generate more revenue for existing resorts along with the sale of new resorts they are building.

 

[GeNioS]

I think what hotcoffee meant was that marriott is probably looking to expand their resale business and grow it. If you think about it they have a lot of very nice resort that have already sold out and resale would be another way to generate more revenue for existing resorts along with the sale of new resorts they are building.

They are already doing this as well....what do you think they do with all the properties in which they exercise ROFR?

 

[GeNioS]

And how many owners will sell on their own vs. sell through marriott(inventory of private resale vs. inventory of resale through marriott)?

It's funny this question came up, because I've been spending a lot of time on this lately.

I try not to write too much because it doesn't take long for the missing filter between brain and mouth (or fingers) to become very apparent.....but.....you asked the question.

There is only one of three reasons a Marriott owner would not use Marriott to sell a Marriott timeshare. 1) You don't have any time to wait, 2) You bought it resale and aren't eligible, or 3) You are retarded.

Selling the timeshare through Marriott reminds me of diamonds. Diamonds should be worthless. They are abundant and are just old rocks....but some guys manage to limit the supply and do an amazing job of it. You want to buy a diamond, you have to buy from a very few places, through some very limited markets....and it's worked amazingly well. (Until the class action lawsuit stung them a tiny bit, but I digress.)

Other threads, including one very well worded post (kudos to Hoc for being dead on) in that eBay auction thread recently, have talked about the inflated price of buying directly from Marriott vs. actual market value. But if all Marriott owners sold directly through Marriott, that "inflated" price would become actual market value.

If I can digress a moment, the real irony here, and future conversation of its own, is that while I've been researching the differences between retail from Marriott and resale, I've come to the conclusion that, while Hoc is absolutely correct and the Marriott values are what they are on eBay, if Marriott had to sell them at resale prices (actual market value) in the beginning, the resorts probably could not have been built in the first place. Anyways....

I actually thought that the 60/40 split must be how Marriott chooses which ROFR it excercises....and it should be. It would make sense that Marriott, in order to protect all owners and the integrity of its prices (not to mention more profit for them), should buy back any property where the resale price is below what Marriott would make on a 40% sales commission. Clearly that's not the case.

Canyon Villas recently passed ROFR for $4200 on a week that Marriott sells for $19,500. If you own that week, even if it takes a couple of years, would you rather have 60% of $19,500 or 100% $4200? Which brings me back to #1, #2, and, of course, #3 above.

Just to touch on Marriott getting more involved in the resale business...as I just mentioned in the other post, Marriott is already involved in resale. They resell every property which they acquire back through ROFR and offer resale for it's retail customers, and they do both at full retail (what they call current market price...i know...don't laugh). They've got retail.....er....market price.....covered.

This means that the only way Marriott is going to get more into the resale business is if they offer lower prices with less benefits on resales they acquire via ROFR or start their own ebay style sales world and take commissions on a different structure. (And to digress again, if they did that they probably would have to give more incentives to the buyer, else why would you use Marriott's service as a seller as opposed to eBay.)

Given all the current opportunities, and looking at what I see as possible avenues of resale in the future....and.....looking at current market values according to the world of reality I live in, I'll wait as much time for Marriott to bump into my unit's buyer as necessary and gladly give 40% and if you still don't think that's your best option, again.....I hope you fit into options #1 or #2...otherwise, it's #3.

(No offense...I'm just a smarta**)

 

[Icarus]

What do you guys think???

Yes, it's already true, however, they won't accept resales if they are still selling developer owned units at your timeshare.

If you have an older timeshare (one no longer in developer sales), call them, and ask them how long the waiting list is for listing your unit for resale.

Also, at times, Marriott makes offers to some owners of units to build up their own resale inventory. Of course, those offers are at less than 60% of the current selling price. Plus they also own any units they pick up for less than that during the ROFR process.

So, while they will sell your unit for you, you are also competing for the sales of any resale units they already own, and guess which ones they will sell first, because they are more lucrative to their own bottom line and/or will free up their own funds for further investment?

I bet the salesmen don't tell you all that. They simply tell you that Marriott will resell your unit, giving you the impression that you can simply call Marriott and get it resold quickly. And yes, the sales people are very good about telling you how the ROFR process is there to protect you (not true) and how your unit may increase in value (also not true as a seller in most cases.)

And yes, Marriott knows that their salespeople do this and they also know they are spreading the rumors about the new internal trading system, and they don't do enough to stop them from doing any of that.

So, how is Marriott better than the rest of the industry? That's easy. For the most part, the rest of the industry does far worse things than Marriott does. But that doesn't excuse Marriott from responsibility for the tactics that their salespeople use, especially if they know about it and do nothing (or not as much as they could) to prevent it.

ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.

-David

 

[cp73]

There is only one of three reasons a Marriott owner would not use Marriott to sell a Marriott timeshare. 1) You don't have any time to wait, 2) You bought it resale and aren't eligible, or 3) You are retarded.

GeNios,

#1 you hit on the head...When most people sell they want out. I have heard the Marriott resales typically take 1-2 years, if your lucky. Who can wait that long? That means 1 or 2 more years of maintenance fees. #2 I think resales are eligible for Marriot sales. I never had heard that one before. #3 Most all of us our special.

 

[Steve]

Marriott definitely will accept weeks purchased resale into their resale program. This can lead to a nice profit for those who buy resale on the open market and then have Marriott sell their weeks for them...even with the 40% commission.

Steve

 

[GeNioS]

Marriott definitely will accept weeks purchased resale into their resale program. This can lead to a nice profit for those who buy resale on the open market and then have Marriott sell their weeks for them...even with the 40% commission.

Steve

Well this is huge then, because I called the resale department yesterday and they told me that if I purchased a week on the external market I would have to sell it on the external market. So either #1) You guys are misinformed, #2) Marriott resale rep lied to me #3) I am retarded.

Will call again tomorrow.

 

[ricki999]

or maybe the Marriott rep is misinformed.

 

[kjd]

Marriott's resale market

All of this speculation about Marriott getting heavily into the resale TS business (They are already in it to a degree) raises several tough questions.

If the resale business is so lucrative why are people put on a waiting list to sell through Marriott? Reports on TUG say that it takes over a year to sell through Marriott.

Why would Marriott want to stick it to non-Marriott resale owners by depressing the resale market with different rules? Even if the six month reservation cap on non-Marriott resale owners is true, resales are still a small and insignificant part of Marriott's total business. Anyway, most of the really good trades on II are during flextime.

How would a six month's reservation cap affect present non-Marriott resale owners? Legal questions aside, wouldn't Marriott carry more unreserved inventory longer and what implications are there for owners of other TS companies trying to trade into a Marriott TS through II? Would you be better off owning a non-Marriott TS rather than owning a Marriott? That's not very good for business. Would they also restrict incoming II trades to a six months cap?

If EBAY averages about thirty Marriott listings on a given day, how large is the active resale market? (There are several non-Marriott TS that cannot be sold or even given away because of their poor quality.) Does this market seem like a place that a company with the resources of Marriott would make as a target?

The basic problem of the resale market is there are not enough buyers. If there were, even more owners would sell. If Marriott were to make a serious effort in the resale market, how will they attract enough new buyers in addition to what they already have?

Aside from a few cosmetic changes to the system that would enhance the sales of new properties and take a swipe at resale ownership, I can't see Marriott putting a lot of their resources into developing a viable resale program.

 

[m61376]

Well this is huge then, because I called the resale department yesterday and they told me that if I purchased a week on the external market I would have to sell it on the external market. So either #1) You guys are misinformed, #2) Marriott resale rep lied to me #3) I am retarded.

Will call again tomorrow.

They will also tell you that you can't get a vacation adviser and a few other things.

The bottom line is- well, I guess their bottom line- if they want your week because they feel they have a market to sell it, they will happily take it regardless of how it was acquired. Maybe 6 months ago (maybe more- I am not sure of the timeframe) I received a letter from them asking if I was interested in selling my week (acquired resale) back to them. A few other Surf Club owners had posted at the same time about receiving that letter. So the posters above are not misinformed, the salesrep was (or was stretching the truth).

The real problem with your argument is that Marriott closes the sales offices of many of its resorts over time and, while they may keep small inventories to satisfy customers that trickle in through their corporate offices, they are not equipped to resell large scale inventories at certain resorts. When people feel they want- or need- to sell their timeshare they generally are anxious, to some degree, for immediate gratification, and waiting years on a resale seller's list would be unacceptable. If finances or personal situations dictate a sale, they don't want the encumbrance of several thousands of dollars of MF's. So the overriding reason why people wouldn't want to just sell through Marriott is #1 in your argument- the time factor...and I can't see Marriott being in a situation to simply take all units back at a 40% discount off present selling price.

 

[JonP]

Has anyone considered that the ‘six month’ reservation window for non-Marriott resale’s may only be for ‘internal exchanges’ within the new Marriott system and does not affect reservations at your home resort.

This way no obligations under the current timeshare declarations are impacted.

 

[thinze3]

Marriott definitely will accept weeks purchased resale into their resale program....

Yeah, through a program called ROFR. :rofl:

With exponentially rising maintenece fees, you'll be lucky in the future to get your money back on the resale market from a recent resale purchase. IMO


Terry

 

[CMF]

Has anyone considered that the ‘six month’ reservation window for non-Marriott resale’s may only be for ‘internal exchanges’ within the new Marriott system and does not affect reservations at your home resort.

This way no obligations under the current timeshare declarations are impacted.

Has anyone considered that we may be giving Marriott ideas that they have not thought of yet? :ignore:

Charles

 

[PerryM]

OMG!!!!

Has anyone considered that we may be giving Marriott ideas that they have not thought of yet? :ignore:

Charles

Not to worry – Marriott is NOT the airline industry where punishing their customers is #1 on the list of things to do.

This whole topic of Punishing Marriott Owners is a hoot to read – you’ve got Marriott salesreps cooking up stories all the time and laughing with bellyaching pain on how somefolks here actually believe their dribble.

Then you’ve got folks extrapolating these crazy ideas and I’m laughing so hard my side aches too.

This is all rubbish and is a great substitute for nothing on TV this time of year.

If folks want to believe the salesreps and play what-if games then who are we to stand in their way - it's great fun. Ooooppppsss I just fell off my chair

 

[taffy19]

Sooner or later the Marriott will have to come with an announcement even if it is just to state that the rumors are all false. Perry, you may be right that buying timeshares re-sale now or pretty soon may be the best and smartest thing to do if you can keep paying the maintenance fees but only platinum season in case the internal reservation system will change. JMHO as I would no longer count on trading up if a point system will be in place. I wished they would let us know SOON.

 

[CMF]

Not to worry – Marriott is NOT the airline industry where punishing their customers is #1 on the list of things to do.

This whole topic of Punishing Marriott Owners is a hoot to read – you’ve got Marriott salesreps cooking up stories all the time and laughing with bellyaching pain on how somefolks here actually believe their dribble.

Then you’ve got folks extrapolating these crazy ideas and I’m laughing so hard my side aches too.

This is all rubbish and is a great substitute for nothing on TV this time of year.

If folks want to believe the salesreps and play what-if games then who are we to stand in their way - it's great fun. Ooooppppsss I just fell off my chair

It's childish to think that a business would set out hurt a class of patrons. But, it could be an unintended consequence of their profit maximizing efforts.

Charles

 

[Latravel]

I dont think Marriott wants to hurt it's customers but they want to protect their business. One thing multiple people in the sales office stated when we purchased last month is that you are not a "complete Marriott owner" if you purchase resale, since your unit is marked in the system.

From an operations point of view, the Marriott system is amazing and is probably studied in business schools around the country. I have no doubt that they will come up with an equally good system that gives some priority to people who purchased from Marriott. I really believe in their business model but then again, I purchased from Marriott and I purchased Platinum. I did this on purpose because I didn't want to be worried, like people seem to be here, if they changed the system.

Everyone knows that if you purchased resale, your unit is marked in the system so you should not be surprised if the changes (if any) affect you. But, the few thousand dollars you saved on the purchase makes up for that fact, right?

 

[VacationPro]

I dont think Marriott wants to hurt it's customers but they want to protect their business. One thing multiple people in the sales office stated when we purchased last month is that you are not a "complete Marriott owner" if you purchase resale, since your unit is marked in the system.

Everyone knows that if you purchased resale, your unit is marked in the system so you should not be surprised if the changes (if any) affect you. But, the few thousand dollars you saved on the purchase makes up for that fact, right?

Your response seems a bit smug, maybe that wasn't intended, but that is how I read it. I hope you don't ever have to sell, (I know I don't plan on selling my weeks) but if you do, the resale value may become important to you.

Marriott will change the current system, in order to remain competitive with Starwood, Hyatt and Hilton, of this I have no doubt. In order to change the rules to minimize the impact on ALL existing owners, I believe Marriott will "grandfather" all owners on the date of announcement or implementation. I think people are fretting over the potential decline in resale values--which will impact direct purchasers more so than resale purchasers because their buy-in price is higher. I am actually looking forward to the new system, and am looking at picking up resale platinum weeks in the next few months to try to ensure the weeks are included in the internal system. I expect to save over $15,000 by buying resale, especially since Marriott seems to be relaxing the ROFR price in this economy.

Both Hyatt and Hilton allow full use of the internal system with resale owners, while Starwood does for the mandatory resorts and provides an avenue to "requal" resale weeks for the voluntary resorts. I would expect that Marriott has studied all of these systems in detail and will implement one that will provide a great new option for ALL current owners. And there will always be the Interval International option, with a (perhaps reduced) Marriott preference period to snag external deposits. JMHO

 

[davidvel]

Has anyone considered that the ‘six month’ reservation window for non-Marriott resale’s may only be for ‘internal exchanges’ within the new Marriott system and does not affect reservations at your home resort.

This way no obligations under the current timeshare declarations are impacted.

Jon- This is what I have always tried to express in my posts on this topic. As often occurs people mix apples and oranges and blur what is being discussed, sending people off on wild tangents. We don't know what is proposed (rumored?) if anything, but discussions should always clearly distinguish between the reservation process and any exchange system.

 

[Latravel]

I completely agree. I think any changes would likely occur with internal trading, not reservations with your own home resort. It seems like Marriott can modify the program as they wish, but they couldn't touch reservations at your own resort, because we are part owners. I could be completely wrong but that is a very good point.

 

[hotcoffee]

I think what hotcoffee meant was that marriott is probably looking to expand their resale business and grow it. If you think about it they have a lot of very nice resort that have already sold out and resale would be another way to generate more revenue for existing resorts along with the sale of new resorts they are building.

Actually, I meant nothing in particular - only that I remember one of the saleman saying something about "getting into" or possibly "getting more into" the resales business. I did not pay particular attention to him because I had other things on my mind at the time. I have no idea whether he was well informed or not. Most of you know more about how Marriott operates than I do. What I have posted in this thread is what I remember the two salemen I talked to saying. I don't know how accurate any of it was. I assumed that he was not referring to units acquired via ROFR.