Penn State/Sandusky report is out [merged]

[ricoba]

Silence implies consent.

I think I understand your sentiment, but silence on any issue does not necessarily mean the party is consenting.

 

[pianodinosaur]

If it wasn't for the football scholarship, many of these "student athletes" wouldn't be anywhere near Penn State, or any other University.
To eliminate the football program and allow the player to remain at Penn State would be pointless as there would be no reason to ignore their academic short-comings.
The only reason "most" of these "students" are there is to make money for the school by playing football...

I know several physicians who went to college on athletic scholarships. They are some of the smartest people I ever met.

 

[Tia]

Sad the whole deal.

It's my 2cents that way too much emphasis is put on athletics vs academics in college everywhere anyway. Athletics falls in the entertainment category for me, entertainment is another over paid field... just saying.

 

[Beefnot]

Sad the whole deal.

It's my 2cents that way too much emphasis is put on athletics vs academics in college everywhere anyway. Athletics falls in the entertainment category for me, entertainment is another over paid field... just saying.

Given the amount of money that entertainment generates, it is debatable what should be considered overpaid.

 

[SunSand]

As the father of an NCAA Academic All-American football player, I find some of the comments towards athletes to be insulting and degrading. Athletics has played an important role in the educational development of many students. You may find their hard work and dedication "entertainment", but some of us see the value of teamwork and competitiveness as preparation for life. Yes life in business, and dealing with adversity, and living with diverse cultures. I deal with people on a daily basis that could have benefited from athletic competition. What happened at Penn State is awful, and it will cause monumental change in academic institutions across America. Don't punish the athletes, in an attempt to get even with Penn State.

 

[vacationhopeful]

As the father of an NCAA Academic All-American football player....

Why is there a separate All-American list of college football standouts for Academics? I understand YOUR PRIDE in your son and his achievements - which is fine. You should be proud.


But is your son's list the same and in the same position as the NFL 1st and 2nd round draft list from the college ranks? Even close? My post has to do with the BIG BUSINESS of an income stream for universities such as Penn State.

 

[Patri]

My post has to do with the BIG BUSINESS of an income stream for universities such as Penn State.

That income stream may help keep tuition in check. I don't know, but if it does, that's a good thing. If the university uses the money for the benefit of the students, that's a good thing.

 

[Tia]

So I decided to Google that idea and found this link --
http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/14/stop-funding-college-sports

I know my dd says her college tuition costs are going up in the fall in part due to planned athletic spending.

That income stream may help keep tuition in check. I don't know, but if it does, that's a good thing. If the university uses the money for the benefit of the students, that's a good thing.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2011-12-15/news/college-football-s-fleecing-of-american-universities/ another interesting look at the costs of it all

 

[SunSand]

Not one cent of tax payer money goes to fund the high school and collegiate athletics in my State. The football program pays for all of Men's and title IX sports that loose money. The University educational endowment is well over a billion $. That's right, it funds scholarships to all students. You don't think a top athletic program equals foundation gifts to the overall University?

Top football teams drive students and funders to a University. Why is Penn State student enrollment down, for the first time in years? Why are other Universities increasing enrollment? One example, when Buffalo University added a football program years ago, there was an instant huge jump in overall student enrollment. Your example of Minnesota is lame, Minnesota is a Hockey State and football has never caught on.

Athletics and education are inseparable in the United States of America. [deleted]

 

[vacationhopeful]

Not one cent of tax payer money goes to fund the high school and collegiate athletics in my State. ....

Tia's references fully agree with YOUR POINT. Not one penny of taxpayers' money goes to support the sports teams, uniforms and their travels . It is all the inflated FEES that the students pay - activites fees - that supports the various teams. As for the capital costs, the pension costs, health insurance cost of the STAFF and coachs (like all educational staff) DOES get paid with state taxpayers' dollars. Just like the ECONOMICS and ACCOUNTING and ENGINEERING staffs.

And how many engineering professors get a $4MM early retirement inventive at 85 years old? What else could the money have brought for ALL the students at Penn State? That is more then a few dozen football game tickets.

Penn State enrollment is down because the students and parents have chosen to NOT support that school and its policies - for some strange reason.

As for separation of colleges and semi-pro sports (your term was "Athletics and Education") and the US of A --- Ivy League conference and Patriot League conference are both in the USA (and they are ones I know of personally without a google search). Their enrollment/applications are UP.

 

[ace2000]

Penn State enrollment is down because the students and parents have chosen to NOT support that school and its policies - for some strange reason.

Not sure why a few of you have said that enrollment (and also donations) are down. In fact, they recently reported that both are up. However, that was before the latest report. It will be interesting to watch the Fall enrollment, but a lot of that has been determined by now also.

 

[Mel]

Not one cent of tax payer money goes to fund the high school and collegiate athletics in my State. The football program pays for all of Men's and title IX sports that loose money. The University educational endowment is well over a billion $. That's right, it funds scholarships to all students. You don't think a top athletic program equals foundation gifts to the overall University?

Top football teams drive students and funders to a University. Why is Penn State student enrollment down, for the first time in years? Why are other Universities increasing enrollment? One example, when Buffalo University added a football program years ago, there was an instant huge jump in overall student enrollment. Your example of Minnesota is lame, Minnesota is a Hockey State and football has never caught on.

Athletics and education are inseparable in the United States of America. [deleted]

Congratulations to your son, it sounds like he is making the most of his opportunity. Unfortunately, not all student athletes are.

You claim that not one cent of taxpayer money goes toward athletics in your entire state - how can you be sure of that, at both collegiate and high school level? Do the athletic programs at all levels use their own facilities, outside of those used for school purposes? Or do the high school football programs pay fair market rent to the schools/towns for use of the football fields and the locker rooms? I suppose it is possible taxpayer money really doesn't pay for anything, but I doubt it.

Athletics and education are inseparable in some American educational institutions, but that doesn't mean they are not inseparable in the US. How many colleges and universities are there? How many have Division I teams, let alone Division I football?

Penn States enrollment may or may not be down (we don't know yet), but it might not just be about football. It might be about perceived safety and accountability. Some families might abandon the school if the football program is disbanded, others might be more inclined to abandon the school if it is not.

The health of our educational system would be better if we move professional athletic preparation out of the equation. The primary purpose of a college or University is to educate, predominantly as part of a degree program. Perhaps the professional sports leagues should take the route of Baseball, and have a farm system. Pay those athletes for their work, and if they so choose, they can attend college on their own dime. Those who have no inclination to obtain a degree can save their money and choose not to. The universities that still want those athletes as their students can find a way to accomodate their schedules - through online classes or other non-traditional schedules, but make those same options available to the non-athletes.

Educational institutions should well know for the education they deliver, not for their football (or any other) team.

Incidentally, here is the latest news: Paterno family to launch its own probe of Penn State scandal

 

[DeniseM]

I have deleted a rude remark, and a response to a rude remark. This is a very sensitive topic - we all have strong feelings about it, but personal attacks are not permitted on TUG.

Please stick to the topic and remember that other people have the right to post their opinions, as long as it doesn't violate the TUG posting rules - whether you agree with them or not.

 

[Beefnot]

I enjoy reading, and sometimes participating in these debates, though I have an obliquely related question. Why are passionate debates such as this permitted, but others, such as the recent one about global warming got closed quickfast? How do we delineate "contentious social issues"? I don't have a dog in this fight, and it doesn't really bother me either way, but just wondering about the distinctions.

 

[SueDonJ]

IMO there are still far too many people across the country who believe that the NCAA does not have the authority to sanction Penn State for the cover-up involving only Sandusky's acts. The argument, as near as I can decipher it although it doesn't sound rational to me, is that the players on the field were not directly related to/impacted by the whole mess so this is not a football issue and therefore doesn't come under the NCAA umbrella. What?! If Sandusky had been removed when he should have been, the team would never have earned its reputation as "Linebacker U" and would never have achieved the on-field success that it did!

It's also mind-boggling to me that there are still so many people who think that if it does come under the NCAA umbrella, Penn State's players and program should be spared the same fate that has befallen every other current player and program when NCAA sanctions have been imposed due to previous players'/coaches' infractions. Really, I don't understand the argument that the NCAA cannot punish Penn State's football program because the current players/coaches/students/community are too invested in the program. What makes Penn State's program so dang special that it can't be subjected to the usual NCAA penalty process that other programs have been made to serve?!

The woman who stood up to Joe Paterno (CNN) This article sheds a different light on the "culture of reverence" (as it was noted in the Freeh report) that existed at Penn State for years and that seems to have encompassed much more than the Sandusky travesty. If it's correct, there were untold numbers of infractions committed by members of the football program, including team members, which were not punished or reported as they should have been according to either the Clery Act or NCAA rules because the culture on that campus was to kowtow to Joe Paterno's iron fist. And it appears that Joe laid down the law in every instance that no punishment that would keep a player off the field could be imposed.

There's absolutely no doubt that the criminal acts committed by Sandusky were the most despicable of any that were covered up or swept under the rug by Paterno, Spanier, Curley, Schultz - and however many others may have been in the inner circle but haven't been named yet. But if what's alleged in this article is investigated further, then perhaps the arguments currently being spouted in order to stave off the worst of punishments for Penn State Football will be silenced. That's my hope.

 

[geekette]

my gut feel is that global warming got political years ago. Not everyone believes it to be scientific fact and discussions can degenerate into name-calling quickly.

Contentious would mean people on different sides of the issue. In the Sandusky case, pretty much everyone is against child molestation so it is not contentious.

 

[DeniseM]

I enjoy reading, and sometimes participating in these debates, though I have an obliquely related question. Why are passionate debates such as this permitted, but others, such as the recent one about global warming got closed quickfast? How do we delineate "contentious social issues"? I don't have a dog in this fight, and it doesn't really bother me either way, but just wondering about the distinctions.

I didn't close that thread, but I can give you a general response: The decision to close a thread is made by the individual moderator or Admin. who deals with the thread - based on the TUG posting rules, and their best judgement. Part of that judgement is knowledge of what topics have been problems in the past, and Global Warming is one of those topics, that really sets people off.

 

[Mel]

IMO there are still far too many people across the country who believe that the NCAA does not have the authority to sanction Penn State for the cover-up involving only Sandusky's acts. The argument, as near as I can decipher it although it doesn't sound rational to me, is that the players on the field were not directly related to/impacted by the whole mess so this is not a football issue and therefore doesn't come under the NCAA umbrella. What?! If Sandusky had been removed when he should have been, the team would never have earned its reputation as "Linebacker U" and would never have achieved the on-field success that it did!.

Unfortunately, the NCAA probably does not have standing. In every other case where they have sanctioned a team, it was for a violation of NCAA rules. They don't have to like what happened at Penn State, but it may or may not have violated NCAA rules. It is possible that Sandusky's use of athletic facilities with these youngsters might qualify as a recruitment violation, which would give NCAA standing to sanction.

It's kind of like Al Capone, who served 7 years for tax evasion - they got him for what they could.

It's also mind-boggling to me that there are still so many people who think that if it does come under the NCAA umbrella, Penn State's players and program should be spared the same fate that has befallen every other current player and program when NCAA sanctions have been imposed due to previous players'/coaches' infractions. Really, I don't understand the argument that the NCAA cannot punish Penn State's football program because the current players/coaches/students/community are too invested in the program. What makes Penn State's program so dang special that it can't be subjected to the usual NCAA penalty process that other programs have been made to serve?!

My hope is that the trustees act before the NCAA, and impose their own penalty on the football program. It serve both the school and the victims better. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens to the individual football players, and it is unfortunate that they may be hurt by this (even if they did benefit). Unless they saw something, they had no reason to believe something of this nature was happening. The trustees can work with the NCAA to ensure that the current players and prospects (incoming freshmen) get a fair deal. This way the punishment can be harsh without setting a precedent for the NCAA or calling into question their standing in all of this.

Some could argue that the league and the NCAA themselves are partly to blame too, do we sanction them too?

 

[Patri]

Educational institutions should well know for the education they deliver, not for their football (or any other) team.

[/URL]

How about band programs? Some students attend a particular college for the quality of its marching bands. Since that one Florida school screwed up, should bands be eliminated from college life, and students only go for academics?

I know of several kids for whom participating in a college band was very important. Are music scholarships a waste if they don't end up playing for the Philharmonic? Or even end up in a music-related career?

On that note, should sororities and fraternities be banned? Clubs in general? Let's just stick to classes and no well-rounded life for our young people. Should society be the same? Go to work, go home, go to bed, don't participate in anything at all. You should be known for your job only.

 

[Beefnot]

How about band programs? Some students attend a particular college for the quality of its marching bands. Since that one Florida school screwed up, should bands be eliminated from college life, and students only go for academics?

I know of several kids for whom participating in a college band was very important. Are music scholarships a waste if they don't end up playing for the Philharmonic? Or even end up in a music-related career?

On that note, should sororities and fraternities be banned? Clubs in general? Let's just stick to classes and no well-rounded life for our young people. Should society be the same? Go to work, go home, go to bed, don't participate in anything at all. You should be known for your job only.

Touche, mademoiselle. Touche.

 

[Mel]

How about band programs? Some students attend a particular college for the quality of its marching bands. Since that one Florida school screwed up, should bands be eliminated from college life, and students only go for academics?

I know of several kids for whom participating in a college band was very important. Are music scholarships a waste if they don't end up playing for the Philharmonic? Or even end up in a music-related career?

On that note, should sororities and fraternities be banned? Clubs in general? Let's just stick to classes and no well-rounded life for our young people. Should society be the same? Go to work, go home, go to bed, don't participate in anything at all. You should be known for your job only.

Not what I suggested. There's no need to ban any program unless they cause a problem at the school. However, emphasis on non-academic programs should be reduced. (And yes, I agree the issue with hazing within the band is a significant problem).

I don't see a problem with students choosing a school based on its football team or its band, but few students who intend to be professional musicians pick their school based on the Band, but instead look at the entire music department/program. Give scholarships to balance your extracurricular programs, no problem. But we need to get away from thinking an educational institution is defined by its football team or its marching band. Extracurricular activities produce well-rounded students, but a school's reputation should be based on its ability to educate its students (and in many cases, yes those EC's are part of that education).

 

[SueDonJ]

How about band programs? Some students attend a particular college for the quality of its marching bands. Since that one Florida school screwed up, should bands be eliminated from college life, and students only go for academics?

I know of several kids for whom participating in a college band was very important. Are music scholarships a waste if they don't end up playing for the Philharmonic? Or even end up in a music-related career?

On that note, should sororities and fraternities be banned? Clubs in general? Let's just stick to classes and no well-rounded life for our young people. Should society be the same? Go to work, go home, go to bed, don't participate in anything at all. You should be known for your job only.

Interesting that you bring bands into the discussion, Florida A&M University in particular. Today FAMU's president announced that his resignation will be effective immediately, which is about as correct a move as could be made now considering the vote of "no confidence" he'd received from trustees in June. IMO he should have resigned immediately when the hazing death story broke, but at least he had the good sense while he was still presiding to suspend the band program indefinitely.

I agree with you that the extracurriculars round out a student's education and that it's extreme to start talking about completely abolishing them all over the country. But when a certain program is exposed as one that has adopted a "win at any cost" culture and the exorbitant price being paid is shielded and hidden by those in power, which is what happened at FAMU and Penn State, that's when the certain program should be shut down. It should happen immediately, and it should be implemented by those at the schools with the power to do it (which is what Mel has suggested and what FAMU did.) Shut the program down and don't start it back up again until all the folks responsible for the culture are gone. That's the only way to prove that the school administration is serious about complying with any and all rules imposed by all organizations, in-house and other, that are charged with safeguarding the integrity of the schools. When the schools don't take that action, that's when the books should be thrown at them from every corner. Repeatedly.

 

[SueDonJ]

... My hope is that the trustees act before the NCAA, and impose their own penalty on the football program. It serve both the school and the victims better. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens to the individual football players, and it is unfortunate that they may be hurt by this (even if they did benefit). Unless they saw something, they had no reason to believe something of this nature was happening. The trustees can work with the NCAA to ensure that the current players and prospects (incoming freshmen) get a fair deal. This way the punishment can be harsh without setting a precedent for the NCAA or calling into question their standing in all of this. ...

I agree with you, but I think it's long past time for us to give the trustees the benefit of the doubt here. If they announce tomorrow that Penn State's football program is suspended indefinitely and every administration position, including their own, will be replaced within the year, it will be welcome news.

But anyone with any insight into pedophilia could have expected the Freeh report results almost immediately when the Grand Jury report was released. All of the signs were there of patterns consistent with both long-term multiple-victim molestations as well as the poisonous "win at any cost" culture in Penn State's football program. I was ticked off that Penn State football played out the season last year and I have been ticked off at most every report that has come out since then. And I'm no expert, but there are plenty of them who have been saying exactly the same things for months.

So if Penn State makes that announcement tomorrow I'll be happy, but I won't give them any credit at all for doing the right thing. It would have been the correct thing if they'd done it back in November. It would have been the right thing only if they'd turned the pedophile in years ago (and with three more victims coming forward saying they were molested in the '70s and '80s we really have no idea when this all began.) Now it would just be another CYA move to protect themselves. They should have been motivated by the victims' distress for all these years, but nothing they've done or could do will make up for their complete and utter disregard of the victims. Nothing.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

The fate of the students

The fate of the students impacted by closing the football program is NOTHING compared to what happened to the children molested as a result of Paterno and Penn States inaction and lies. Most, if not all of them, will be unable to lead normal lives. Any action against the football program is justified as a lesson to Penn State and other schools that children must be protected from sexual predators. Penn State protected the sexual predator at the expense of the children.

 

[SueDonJ]

And for the love of pete, will SOMEBODY with a lick of sense please reign in the artist who is painting and re-painting and re-painting that foolish mural?!?! Put a tarp over the thing until all this is settled and stop making a bad situation worse!

Are you freaking KIDDING me? The halo was removed from Paterno's head but a blue ribbon has been painted on his chest?! What a COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL move that was - does the painter realize that Joe Paterno's actions were about as far REMOVED from Child Abuse Prevention as it's possible to be?!

Also, I saw something that said Penn State has had to hire security for Paterno's statue, to prevent protesters from injuring it. WHAT?! They're THAT concerned with protecting the sacred JoePa's STATUE but they couldn't protect CHILDREN?!

GAH, it's infuriating what continues to happen there. NONE of it makes sense to me. How can anyone think any of this is acceptable?!