Penn State/Sandusky report is out [merged]

[DeniseM]

For those of you that want to shut down the entire football program - let's say this happened at your place of employment.

Let's say that in your department where 100 people work, one of the Asst. managers was bringing in kids after hours and molesting them.

Let's say that a college intern saw it, and a custodian saw it, and reported it to the Department manager.

Let's say the Dept. Mgr. reported it to the General Manager, and the Region Manager, and they all covered it up.

Let's say that no one else in the department knew anything about it.

Let's say that tomorrow when you go into work, you will find out that your department has been eliminated because of the molestation and cover up, and everyone in the department has been fired.

That's fair and logical, right?

 

[ace2000]

For those of you that want to shut down the entire football program - let's say this happened at your place of employment.

Let's say that in your department where 100 people work, one of the Asst. managers was bringing in kids after hours and molesting them.

Let's say that a college intern saw it, and a custodian saw it, and reported it to the Department manager.

Let's say the Dept. Mgr. reported it to the General Manager, and the Region Manager, and they all covered it up.

Let's say that no one else in the department knew anything about it.

Let's say that tomorrow when you go into work, you will find out that your department has been eliminated because of the molestation and cover up, and everyone in the department has been fired.

That's fair and logical, right?

Hey, how did Ride get access to Denise's TUG account? :hysterical:

Talk about stirring the pot...

 

[ricoba]

I'd guess that what happened there is not on the same scope as what happened at Penn State. But if it is and they've learned that this softball head's criminal actions had gone on for years, and have been known and protected by school administration members, then as a community member I'd want every single paid position at the school and administration to be replaced by people completely unconnected to the community. Anything less leads to the appearance that the victims are not as important as the program. Shouldn't the victims be worth much more, nevermind on at least an equal level?

You are right, it's not the same scope. I was reflecting on what Patri had posted. But it is an interesting point you make about what and if anything school administrators knew about this coach. And if they did know, how did they deal with it?

In Los Angeles Unified School District the new Superintendent did exactly as you spoke about, fired all the school staff regarding a terrible incidence of sexual abuse by an elementary school teacher. I believe he considered that the school had a culture of conspiracy of silence and corruption/cover up.

Here is the link: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...-staff-canned-over-classroom-sex-allegations/

 

[ricoba]

For those of you that want to shut down the entire football program - let's say this happened at your place of employment.

Let's say that in your department where 100 people work, one of the Asst. managers was bringing in kids after hours and molesting them.

Let's say that a college intern saw it, and a custodian saw it, and reported it to the Department manager.

Let's say the Dept. Mgr. reported it to the General Manager, and the Region Manager, and they all covered it up.

Let's say that no one else in the department knew anything about it.

Let's say that tomorrow when you go into work, you will find out that your department has been eliminated because of the molestation and cover up, and everyone in the department has been fired.

That's fair and logical, right?

As I was posting a reply, you posted this. But this is exactly what John Deasy, the new Superintendent of LAUSD did with regard to the sick/disgusting situation at Miramonte Elementary.

Not sure what the final outcome will be, but he let everyone go to send a message that sexual abuse of children will not be tolerated. Not sure what the teachers union will do etc...

I agree it's extreme, and I am not sure if it's the right response, but it does give a serious response to a very serious problem.

Here again is the same link I just posted.http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...-staff-canned-over-classroom-sex-allegations/

 

[DeniseM]

Hey, how did Ride get access to Denise's TUG account? :hysterical:

Talk about stirring the pot...

Seriously? You think I only posted this to "stir the pot?"

You think I am defending Sandusky and the others? Really?

My point was about punishing people who had nothing to do with what happened. It is a perfectly good analogy.

 

[DeniseM]

As I was posting a reply, you posted this. But this is exactly what John Deasy, the new Superintendent of LAUSD did with regard to the sick/disgusting situation at Miramonte Elementary.

Not sure what the final outcome will be, but he let everyone go to send a message that sexual abuse of children will not be tolerated. Not sure what the teachers union will do etc...

I agree it's extreme, and I am not sure if it's the right response, but it does give a serious response to a very serious problem.

Here again is the same link I just posted.http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/ne...-staff-canned-over-classroom-sex-allegations/

If you read the entire article, it appears that the school closure and firings were actually more of a temporary closure during the investigation - or that the superintendent had to rescind his decision later - so the school really isn't closed and they aren't really fired.

The teachers, who were warehoused at another location, may now return to the classroom at Miramonte or another school, Deasy said.

 

[ace2000]

Seriously? You think I only posted this to "stir the pot?"

You think I am defending Sandusky and the others? Really?

My point was about punishing people who had nothing to do with what happened. It is a perfectly good analogy.

Well, that's a scenario that will definitely stir the discussion up a bit. No, I don't think you're defending Sandusky or anyone else. I feel that you're saying that killing the football program or punishing the university employees is extreme. Please don't take offense, only trying to liven it up a bit.

The big difference between your scenario and the Penn St. scenario - is that with Penn State the consensus is that the cover up was done to protect the football program and the reputation of the university. That's why many feel the football program should be canned as punishment.

I personally feel that the football program should remain, but that Penn St university should be held legally accountable. That's where you're gonna hurt them the most. And in the end, the football program will feel this for many years anyway, just let it all play out.

Now, the big question is what is the school going to do with Paterno... what happens to the statue and the all the references to JoePa around the campus? It'll be interesting to watch it unfold.

 

[SueDonJ]

For those of you that want to shut down the entire football program - let's say this happened at your place of employment.

Let's say that in your department where 100 people work, one of the Asst. managers was bringing in kids after hours and molesting them.

Let's say that a college intern saw it, and a custodian saw it, and reported it to the Department manager.

Let's say the Dept. Mgr. reported it to the General Manager, and the Region Manager, and they all covered it up.

Let's say that no one else in the department knew anything about it.

Let's say that tomorrow when you go into work, you will find out that your department has been eliminated because of the molestation and cover up, and everyone in the department has been fired.

That's fair and logical, right?

I'm having a hard time equating a place of employment that normally wouldn't be expected to have an ingrained culture based on competition (sometime unhealthy) and idolatry (again unhealthy) with a college football program that by its very nature does have that ingrained culture to some degree.

In the employment scenario that you describe I would expect that the assailant and all others who knew of his/her actions would be investigated by criminal authorities and charged or not as the investigation warranted, and their positions filled in due time by the higher-ups in the company. Beyond that, there isn't any jurisdiction that I know of that would have the power to disband the entire department, unless the company hierarchy was to determine that it was non-essential and they'd shut it down and re-assign those duties elsewhere in the company.

At Penn State criminal authorities are in the midst of investigating and bringing charges, which is what should have happened years ago but didn't because those in powerful positions didn't allow it. But the difference between Penn State and a private corporation is that there is an oversight committee which can exert influence on the university and/or its football program, sometimes resulting in injury to innocent bystanders with connections to the program. The NCAA is charged with investigating ethical matters at colleges/universities and each school that contracts to be a member of the NCAA agrees to that oversight by acceptance of the charter. It appears that there is established reason and precedence for the NCAA to sanction Penn State, severely, for these incidents that seem at the least to be contrary to the "institutional control" that the NCAA expects of its members.

We have to remember, "fair and logical" isn't always at play with NCAA sanctions. The current members of sanctioned programs are made to suffer for the improprieties of former members. It's sad but that's the way it is. I don't understand, though, why those who might suffer that fate at Penn State aren't putting the blame on those who deserve it - Jerry Sandusky and the cast of characters who protected him and allowed the program to be dragged to the depths of depravity.

 

[Elan]

For those of you that want to shut down the entire football program - let's say this happened at your place of employment.

Let's say that in your department where 100 people work, one of the Asst. managers was bringing in kids after hours and molesting them.

Let's say that a college intern saw it, and a custodian saw it, and reported it to the Department manager.

Let's say the Dept. Mgr. reported it to the General Manager, and the Region Manager, and they all covered it up.

Let's say that no one else in the department knew anything about it.

Let's say that tomorrow when you go into work, you will find out that your department has been eliminated because of the molestation and cover up, and everyone in the department has been fired.

That's fair and logical, right?

The coaching staff is new. They all knew of the ongoing investigation at the time of their hiring. As for the players, I presume the NCAA would rule that they would all be eligible for immediate transfer to other D1 programs.

Mel's point that it's possible that the NCAA may not have any grounds for penalizing the program is valid. But if they do, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't.

 

[Elan]

I'll add this: If the findings in today's report are indeed accurate, PSU stands to get reamed in civil court.

 

[am1]

I'm still in support of the death penalty. It is meant to punish the school and send a message to others.

I will no longer watch Penn State football games. Thankfully they will be regulated to the BIG 10 network which I do not get.

When are the pensions revoked?

 

[ace2000]

I personally feel that the football program should remain, but that Penn St university should be held legally accountable. That's where you're gonna hurt them the most. And in the end, the football program will feel this for many years anyway, just let it all play out.

I'll add this: If the findings in today's report are indeed accurate, PSU stands to get reamed in civil court.

That's exactly my point. We won't have to worry about justice being served in this matter.

 

[vacationhopeful]

I'm still in support of the death penalty. It is meant to punish the school and send a message to others.

I will no longer watch Penn State football games. Thankfully they will be regulated to the BIG 10 network which I do not get.

When are the pensions revoked?

I watch almost NO FOOTBALL or other professional/college sports. I can barely get thru a Little League game.

"Poison fruit" will be harvested via civil lawsuits actions. It will most likely bankrupt either the university coffers or the state treasury.

Are Penn State pensions paid by as civil service or is the Pension funded by the university? Penn State, if it went bankrupt, would be then just like the scores of other companies who lost everything. Happy Valley would be not so happy anymore.

PS Wish I had 10% of Joe Pa's widow's pension.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

I believe the NCAA has the power to shut the football program down. I think it SHOULD be shut down for several years AS an EXAMPLE to all the other colleges and universities where Football is king because of money and there is no respect for integrity or the law. There are many other places of "higher education" that would benefit from seeing one of their own receive a smack down.

The report blames everyone in power including the Board of Trustees. As I remember, after Paterno was fired there were numerous rallies from the faithful football fans. Paterno apparently lied under oath to the grand jury. Paterno apparently concealed the facts to the detriment of children who were being molested.

Yes, children continued to be molested because JOE PATERNO AND PENN STATE FAILED TO OBEY THE LAW AND ACT WITH THE SMALLEST AMOUNT OF INTEGRITY AND MORALITY.

This is an institutional problem. The institution is college football at Penn State. The institution must be shut down, punished, lose money, lose respect, and lose the devotion of the faithful. They all must learn in no uncertain terms that football wins does not earn you the title of Mother Theresa.

There is no other way to put it. They stink with grief of the children whose trust they betrayed and whose lives they ruined. They stink. The Institution stinks.

This report couldn't be more damning of the people and the place.

Enough is Enough! Shut them down.

 

[ricoba]

If you read the entire article, it appears that the school closure and firings were actually more of a temporary closure during the investigation - or that the superintendent had to rescind his decision later - so the school really isn't closed and they aren't really fired.

Yes, I had heard something to that effect, but did not see it in the article since I was only using the article as an example of drastic measures that may occur in what were chilling circumstances.

 

[Patri]

Are they actually talking about shutting down the entire school? I've heard suggestions of shutting down the athletic program, but not the school.

No, that is just what some people advocate. We don't need lynch mobs destroying everything in their path to teach a lesson. There would be many innocent victims.

 

[MOXJO7282]

It would be extreme to eliminate the football program but something extreme short of that needs to be done. It just amazes me how so many of our society leaders turn out to be immoral and greedy. That is what it comes down to, these men did not want to lose their prestige and power so they looked the other way. To think that so many knew and could have prevented many of these horrible events its inexcuable. Penn state will be paying 10s of millions to clean this up.

 

[ricoba]

I believe the NCAA has the power to shut the football program down. I think it SHOULD be shut down for several years AS an EXAMPLE to all the other colleges and universities where Football is king because of money and there is no respect for integrity or the law. There are many other places of "higher education" that would benefit from seeing one of their own receive a smack down.

The report blames everyone in power including the Board of Trustees. As I remember, after Paterno was fired there were numerous rallies from the faithful football fans. Paterno apparently lied under oath to the grand jury. Paterno apparently concealed the facts to the detriment of children who were being molested.

Yes, children continued to be molested because JOE PATERNO AND PENN STATE FAILED TO OBEY THE LAW AND ACT WITH THE SMALLEST AMOUNT OF INTEGRITY AND MORALITY.

This is an institutional problem. The institution is college football at Penn State. The institution must be shut down, punished, lose money, lose respect, and lose the devotion of the faithful. They all must learn in no uncertain terms that football wins does not earn you the title of Mother Theresa.

There is no other way to put it. They stink with grief of the children whose trust they betrayed and whose lives they ruined. They stink. The Institution stinks.

This report couldn't be more damning of the people and the place.

Enough is Enough! Shut them down.

You know, you and I have not seen eye-to-eye a couple of times here on TUG, but in this matter I think I am in full agreement with your idea and assessment of the situation.

 

[Clemson Fan]

The football program needs to be shut down. One of my best friends who was the best man in my wedding is a Penn State grad and he agrees that the football program needs to be shut down. If the NCAA doesn't do it, then the university should do it as an example to the remainder of the student body that had nothing to do with this that they're reprioritizing back to the students. If this happened at my school I would advocate the same thing

 

[laurac260]

I look at what went down recently at Ohio State. Peanuts compared to this. Ohio State was penalized and not allowed to be in any bowl contention this next season. Many were penalized for the acts of few. It sucks, but that is how it goes.

I don't know the answer to how this should be treated, but if something heavy handed doesn't come down, and swiftly, what's to stop it from happening again?

 

[Mel]

The football program needs to be shut down. One of my best friends who was the best man in my wedding is a Penn State grad and he agrees that the football program needs to be shut down. If the NCAA doesn't do it, then the university should do it as an example to the remainder of the student body that had nothing to do with this that they're reprioritizing back to the students. If this happened at my school I would advocate the same thing

If the football program is to be shut down, I think it would be a much stronger message for it to be done voluntarily by the trustees. Not because they see any writing on the wall, but because they want to do the right thing.

It would tell the current students that the function of the school is to educate, and if football gets in the way of education it has to go.

It would tell the alumni the same thing - we value your money and input, but our primary purpose is to educate those students who are currently on campus. We will miss your money if you choose to withdraw your support, but if you do, it signals that you were not supporting our primary purpose.

It would tell the victims and their families that the trustees take the situation seriously, and will not attempt to brush it all under the proverbial rug.

If the NCAA forces a shut down (they can ban NCAA participation, but they really can't force U Penn to completely eliminate the program), it will be seen as a punishment from outside, and the trustees will be seen as weak and reactive instead of proactive. They have fired those directly involved, but they need to deal with the atmosphere that allowed this to happen. That means sending one type of message to the students and alumni, and a very different one to the victims - not just those who came forward, but however many others are out there as well.

 

[lvhmbh]

I'm not worried about the football program but AM worried about the players some of whom went there to play football hoping to make the NFL... BUT also wanted a good education. Now if they shut it down and let the kids transfer - that would be different. JMHO, Linda

 

[jlr10]

For those of you that want to shut down the entire football program - let's say this happened at your place of employment.

Let's say that in your department where 100 people work, one of the Asst. managers was bringing in kids after hours and molesting them.

Let's say that a college intern saw it, and a custodian saw it, and reported it to the Department manager.

Let's say the Dept. Mgr. reported it to the General Manager, and the Region Manager, and they all covered it up.

Let's say that no one else in the department knew anything about it.

Let's say that tomorrow when you go into work, you will find out that your department has been eliminated because of the molestation and cover up, and everyone in the department has been fired.

That's fair and logical, right?

I worked in an office where he owner "allegedly" used the trust fund as a personal an operational fund (Only an allegation because, although he fully admitted it, he has not been convicted... yet.) Seems all the sales people knew what was happening but were fully fine to let it continue as they were getting higher commissions there than anywhere else. But when the trust fund finally had no money, when it should have had millions, they cried foul and decided to go somewhere else, and they left in mass, because it was "the only correct thing to do to uphold their fiduciary responsibility to their clients." They seemed to have no problem with their clients money being used illegally until it hurt thme. Only after they began losing money and were able to find a new money stream did they leave. Then they called the department of insurance to file complaints, A multimillion dollar agency (on paper at least) was closed in 10 days.

As one of the 'little guys' who got caught without a job in a difficult employment market I was pretty darn ticked off. But I was even madder that those who knew what was going on had no problem with it until it hurt them personally, they didn't even have the decency to warn others what was happening. They were aware and not punished, I was not but was left with back pay due and no job. In the long run most of them aren't happy (they now have to live with tarnished reputations and have to follow rules, which they didn't before because they kept silent on the indiscretions in return for free reign.) I was able to find another job, which had a much better environment, keep my reputation intact and no longer have to work with those who's only consideration was themselves. But I would have been happier if the department of insurance had been called in first and shut the who thing down upfront so that everyone in the agency was in the same boat. If I had my choice I would rather not have that employer on my resume, as even though I was unaware I still feel guilty by association.

IMHO, the entire football program should be shut down. It was a cash cow for the university. Maybe the football program was the one who got all the football money but the reputation of the football program was a draw for potential students, alumni, and donors. The fact that administrators seemed to be aware shows the culture of the school. So let the school show they have changed by removing the temptation of their football reputation by voluntarily closing the program on their own. The employees will suffer whether keep or lose their jobs. Do you honestly think that people are going to want to stay in an environment where the reputation is so sorely tarnished?

 

[SueDonJ]

If the football program is to be shut down, I think it would be a much stronger message for it to be done voluntarily by the trustees. Not because they see any writing on the wall, but because they want to do the right thing.

It would tell the current students that the function of the school is to educate, and if football gets in the way of education it has to go.

It would tell the alumni the same thing - we value your money and input, but our primary purpose is to educate those students who are currently on campus. We will miss your money if you choose to withdraw your support, but if you do, it signals that you were not supporting our primary purpose.

It would tell the victims and their families that the trustees take the situation seriously, and will not attempt to brush it all under the proverbial rug.

If the NCAA forces a shut down (they can ban NCAA participation, but they really can't force U Penn to completely eliminate the program), it will be seen as a punishment from outside, and the trustees will be seen as weak and reactive instead of proactive. They have fired those directly involved, but they need to deal with the atmosphere that allowed this to happen. That means sending one type of message to the students and alumni, and a very different one to the victims - not just those who came forward, but however many others are out there as well.

Excellent post, another for the "like" button. It also would tell everyone that the Trustees are finally willing and able to do the jobs they're meant to do. I still think that every sitting board member needs to be replaced because only a thorough purging of the football program and administration will deliver the message that the past culture will no longer be tolerated, but until the replacements are installed the current board should be doing the right thing. Long past the time it should have been done, of course, but better late than never.

What happens now, how does it work if/when the Courts settle the civil suits that are guaranteed to suck every dollar out of the school? With Penn State being a state institution is there the threat of taxpayer money that would not normally be allocated to the school, now being diverted to cover the settlements? Does this have implications that will reach that far, or will the settlements be limited to only what's in the school coffers? (What a word - "only" - the football program brought billions to the school over the years!) Although, because the state authorities did not take action when they did have some limited knowledge, is what I'm asking a moot point because the state does share some of the responsibility?

 

[vacationhopeful]

... U Penn ......

U of Penn is NOT a state school, but a PRIVATE university which was founded by Benj Franklin and is part of the Ivy League. It is located in Philadephia - in the university city area next to Drexel University.

I think you ment Penn State...