Penn State/Sandusky report is out [merged]

[Beefnot]

I don't see a problem with students choosing a school based on its football team or its band, but few students who intend to be professional musicians pick their school based on the Band, but instead look at the entire music department/program. Give scholarships to balance your extracurricular programs, no problem. But we need to get away from thinking an educational institution is defined by its football team or its marching band. Extracurricular activities produce well-rounded students, but a school's reputation should be based on its ability to educate its students (and in many cases, yes those EC's are part of that education).

I'm not sure what points you are trying to make. The comment about students who want to be professional musicians was kind of outta left field. I don't get that one.

An integral component of higher education is extracurricular programs, be they athletics or music or whatever. Basketball players, football players, swimmers, softball players, rowers, dancers, musicians, etc., may select their school primarily based on the strength of the relative extracurricular program first, and quality of education second. In fact, to a great degree that is often the sell. And it is those extracurricular programs that help bring money to any school--through television rights, ticket sales, boosters, engaged alumni contributions, etc.

But when a certain program is exposed as one that has adopted a "win at any cost" culture and the exorbitant price being paid is shielded and hidden by those in power, which is what happened at FAMU and Penn State, that's when the certain program should be shut down. It should happen immediately, and it should be implemented by those at the schools with the power to do it (which is what Mel has suggested and what FAMU did.) Shut the program down and don't start it back up again until all the folks responsible for the culture are gone.

Shutting a program down should be a punishment, not a rehabilitative tool. If the desire is to completely dismantle a culture, that can be done simply by firing every last one of the staff and replacing them wholesale. The 'crimes' by Penn State were so severe that I find it just punishment to kill their football program for several years, be it self-inflicted or NCAA-inflicted.

Also, I saw something that said Penn State has had to hire security for Paterno's statue, to prevent protesters from injuring it. WHAT?! They're THAT concerned with protecting the sacred JoePa's STATUE but they couldn't protect CHILDREN?!

That is standard practice, and despite what I think of Paterno, I would do the same thing. I would not in any way allow for defacement of university property, and would hire security to prevent any predicted vandalism.

 

[Mel]

I'm not sure what points you are trying to make. The comment about students who want to be professional musicians was kind of outta left field. I don't get that one.

It was in response to Sue, who seemed to think I was advocating shutting down all football programs because of one school. I do think there is too much emphasis on some programs, when they are not officially the primary purpose of the university, but are treated as if the university exists for the purpose of supporting them. The difference between Football at Penn, and the Band at Florida is that a percentage of football players fully intend to end up with a career in football. Kill the program, they have no reason to stay at the school. When the band was disbanded, it didn't leave students in the lurch - those who chose Florida to become professional musicians can still do so at Florida, because their career plans don't revolve around that band, even if a band scholarship did enable them to attend that particular school.

Incidentally, I agree with you - shutting the program down would punish the students, NONE of whom were involved in this mess, unless Sandusky's behavior is found to have been common knowledge (I don't think it was among the students). Further, doing so to change the culture could backfire precisely because it is punitive. Clean house, and hire an entirely new staff that takes the situation seriously. The trustees must do it, because otherwise everything thing rests on the NCAA, in terms of having any authority. If the Trustees let the NCAA set the tone, it undermines their authority over the program.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Also, I saw something that said Penn State has had to hire security for Paterno's statue, to prevent protesters from injuring it. WHAT?! They're THAT concerned with protecting the sacred JoePa's STATUE but they couldn't protect CHILDREN?! ...

... That is standard practice, and despite what I think of Paterno, I would do the same thing. I would not in any way allow for defacement of university property, and would hire security to prevent any predicted vandalism.

What makes it inexcusable is the continued appearance that they are more concerned with Joe Paterno, his legacy and the football program than they ever were with the victims.

Immediately after the Grand Jury report I thought the statue could remain as a symbol of Joe-as-the-Football-Coach, and that eventually it might be possible to separate his coaching legacy from the scandal at least enough to justify the statue's placement.

Since then, and especially since the Freeh report has confirmed what was expected, I believe the statue and all references on campus to Joe Paterno should be removed. But I'm pretty sure that's a pipe dream because the trustees and some in the community don't seem to have any idea of what's right and wrong.

But as the decision to hire security to protect the statue was being made, at that moment in that meeting, did NO ONE realize the cruel insult that could be perceived in that move? Did no one realize that it effectively symbolizes the very culture which resulted in children being sacrificed for the program? HOW after all this time can they not be utilizing the services of a Child Protection expert so as to gauge the correctness of their actions now? The arrogance is still there; that's what the security detail for the statue tells me.

 

[SueDonJ]

It was in response to Sue, who seemed to think I was advocating shutting down all football programs because of one school. ...

I think you mean Patri, because I don't think that you want to shut down college football all over the country. You and I agree on many things here.

 

[Beefnot]

But as the decision to hire security to protect the statue was being made, at that moment in that meeting, did NO ONE realize the cruel insult that could be perceived in that move? Did no one realize that it effectively symbolizes the very culture which resulted in children being sacrificed for the program? HOW after all this time can they not be utilizing the services of a Child Protection expert so as to gauge the correctness of their actions now? The arrogance is still there; that's what the security detail for the statue tells me.

Perhaps they should accompany the security detail with some public messaging, like this in no way is a statement about the university's position on Joe Paterno or his legacy, but is simply a temporary move to protect university property from vandals. Either way, just think about the alternative. If and until some decision is made about what to do with the statue, it is not practical to allow it to be open season for vandalism. Sure it doesn't look good politically, if that really should mean anything. This is when we need to be levelheaded, set aside political manipulation and opportunistic sound bytes, and just recognize pragmatic reality. They have to protect the statue at this time.

As far as arrogance, they fired Joe Paterno last year. The effectively fired God. They commissioned the Freeh investigation. That says something. Give them some credit.

 

[SueDonJ]

Perhaps they should accompany the security detail with some public messaging, like this in no way is a statement about the university's position on Joe Paterno or his legacy, but is simply a temporary move to protect university property from vandals. Either way, just think about the alternative. If and until some decision is made about what to do with the statue, it is not practical to allow it to be open season for vandalism. Sure it doesn't look good politically, if that really should mean anything. This is when we need to be levelheaded, set aside political manipulation and opportunistic sound bytes, and just recognize pragmatic reality. They have to protect the statue at this time.

As far as arrogance, they fired Joe Paterno last year. The effectively fired God. They commissioned the Freeh investigation. That says something. Give them some credit.

They don't have to protect it if they remove it, which can be done on a temporary basis at least until they've figured out how to navigate this minefield such that there is no lingering perception of the victims being less important than the program.

I give them credit for passing CYA 101 with flying colors. They don't deserve any further credit.

 

[Beefnot]

Firing Joe Paterno, rather than forcing him to resign, was a very courageous act that they likely knew might cause rioting in the streets, which is precisely what happened. And the Freeh investigation far surpasses CYA. They could easily have said that this is a regrettable situation and that their hearts go out to the victims, and they will fully support all law enforcement investigations into the matter. But no, they went further, they commissioned their own independent investigation and published the results publickly.

If you want to call that a CYA class, which is a stretch by any definition, then it was definitely 503 graduate level. There were so many alternatives available to Penn State that could have been much less vigorous than the course they have pursued, but they did not.

 

[SunSand]

The first move should be for the Big Ten Conference to apply its own sanctions. If those sanctions do not go far enough, then the NCAA should step in. In any case, every athlete should have the ability to change schools without penalty. There are enough victims and tragic circumstances. Let's not penalize the completely innocent.

 

[SueDonJ]

Firing Joe Paterno, rather than forcing him to resign, was a very courageous act that they likely knew might cause rioting in the streets, which is precisely what happened. And the Freeh investigation far surpasses CYA. They could easily have said that this is a regrettable situation and that their hearts go out to the victims, and they will fully support all law enforcement investigations into the matter. But no, they went further, they commissioned their own independent investigation and published the results publickly.

If you want to call that a CYA class, which is a stretch by any definition, then it was definitely 503 graduate level. There were so many alternatives available to Penn State that could have been much less vigorous than the course they have pursued, but they did not.

They didn't take those actions until their backs were up against the wall, after NCAA officials sent them a letter demanding answers to four detailed questions related to items in the NCAA's purview - the university's culture and "institutional control," both before and since the various reports have been released. They'd been told by the NCAA that any decision would be withheld until the legal process had developed and that their answers would be taken into consideration when the decision was made. They and everyone else knew that their answers had better be good, and that only substantial future actions could save them from the disastrous ones of the past. That's textbook CYA, and for you to say that what they did in response to the NCAA directive is more graduate-level than freshman undergrad actually makes them seem MORE desperate, not less.

It occurs to me, if just one word in your last sentence is changed, you prove their culpability far beyond anything I've written: "There were so many alternatives available to Penn State that could have been much more vigorous than the course they have pursued, but they did not."

 

[laurac260]

What makes it inexcusable is the continued appearance that they are more concerned with Joe Paterno, his legacy and the football program than they ever were with the victims.

Immediately after the Grand Jury report I thought the statue could remain as a symbol of Joe-as-the-Football-Coach, and that eventually it might be possible to separate his coaching legacy from the scandal at least enough to justify the statue's placement.

Since then, and especially since the Freeh report has confirmed what was expected, I believe the statue and all references on campus to Joe Paterno should be removed. But I'm pretty sure that's a pipe dream because the trustees and some in the community don't seem to have any idea of what's right and wrong.

But as the decision to hire security to protect the statue was being made, at that moment in that meeting, did NO ONE realize the cruel insult that could be perceived in that move? Did no one realize that it effectively symbolizes the very culture which resulted in children being sacrificed for the program? HOW after all this time can they not be utilizing the services of a Child Protection expert so as to gauge the correctness of their actions now? The arrogance is still there; that's what the security detail for the statue tells me.

how sadly ironic that they would hire security to Protect the statue of a man that wouldn't CALL security to protect the life of a child .

 

[SueDonJ]

The first move should be for the Big Ten Conference to apply its own sanctions. If those sanctions do not go far enough, then the NCAA should step in. In any case, every athlete should have the ability to change schools without penalty. There are enough victims and tragic circumstances. Let's not penalize the completely innocent.

I agree as far as the players. Somebody else has already said it in this thread - they should be given every opportunity to continue any scholarships or playing time at whichever schools would like to invite them, all on Penn State's dime.

 

[Beefnot]

They didn't take those actions until their backs were up against the wall, after NCAA officials sent them a letter demanding answers to four detailed questions related to items in the NCAA's purview - the university's culture and "institutional control," both before and since the various reports have been released. They'd been told by the NCAA that any decision would be withheld until the legal process had developed and that their answers would be taken into consideration when the decision was made. They and everyone else knew that their answers had better be good, and that only substantial future actions could save them from the disastrous ones of the past. That's textbook CYA, and for you to say that what they did in response to the NCAA directive is more graduate-level than freshman undergrad actually makes them seem MORE desperate, not less.

It occurs to me, if just one word in your last sentence is changed, you prove their culpability far beyond anything I've written: "There were so many alternatives available to Penn State that could have been much more vigorous than the course they have pursued, but they did not."

If you were on the Board of Trustees, who have a fiduciary duty to the university, and are faced with this scandal, what actions would you have recommended?

And how does changing a word prove anything?

 

[Beefnot]

how sadly ironic that they would hire security to Protect the statue of a man that wouldn't CALL security to protect the life of a child .

See, that's the political sound byte stuff I am talking about.

 

[pgnewarkboy]

People who protect child molesters should not have statues in their honor

I think this is a simple proposition. People who protect child molesters should not have statues in their honor. In a society that time and time again proclaims itself to despise child molesters it is a hypocritical at the least to make an exception for child molester protectors who won alot of football games.

I wonder how Joe Paterno would have felt if someone protected the molester of HIS GRANDCHILDREN. Do you think he would want a statue erected in their honor because they won many basketball games?

 

[laurac260]

See, that's the political sound byte stuff I am talking about.

political sound byte stuff? Huh? There's nothing political in my post. This has nothing to do with politics. He did not protect the children, therefore his precious statue does not deserve to be protected. Let the students drag it thru the streets like they did to Hussein's statue. Or better yet, let the VICTIMS drag it thru the streets. Poetic justice if you ask me.

 

[Patri]

http://onwardstate.com/community/contrary-to-what-you-have-heard-the-freeh-report-has-big-problems/

Everyone should just calm down and let this thing work itself out. It will. The whole truth may be slow in coming, but true justice will be served once it does.

It is easy and safe to judge from an armchair.

As I said before, I can't honestly believe any of the four thought Sandusky was still actively abusing children. In today's society, it makes no sense. So I really want to know who did what when, and if therefore the 4 thought Sandusky had changed his ways (which no pedophile does). Or if they at least naively thought there were enough controls in place. Unlike TV, crimes and mysteries are not solved in an hour. Eventually this one will be, and THEN we can watch the two-hour film.

The three must be interviewed, as well as the Second Mile people.

 

[SueDonJ]

If you were on the Board of Trustees, who have a fiduciary duty to the university, and are faced with this scandal, what actions would you have recommended? ...

The trustees' duties are more than fiduciary. I would have wanted them to take immediate action following the release of the Grand Jury report last November, I mean THAT DAY and not a few days later in response to the NCAA's letter, to suspend the football program. "Our thoughts and our actions must be focused on the victims of this terrible injustice. We have determined that there could be greater risk in doing further harm to the victims by continuing with business as usual, than there would be with at least temporarily suspending the football program until such time as we have determined the magnitude of this tragedy." Who in their right mind would have a legitimate reason to fault them for that action, if they'd proposed it as a matter of integrity and not money?

Since the Freeh report's been released I want them to do whatever it takes to enact what I wrote earlier in the thread: "I believe the Penn State football program needs to be shut down for at least five years - long enough to purge the culture that exists there and has been festering uncontested for too many years, long enough to field an entirely new team and coaching staff with no connection to the old.

"I don't believe that the university should be shut down completely, but certainly all those who hold non-teaching administration and board positions need to be replaced. Then the university should be placed in some type of receivership and a new oversight committee, made up of people unrelated to the community, can keep tabs on the new administration and board to ensure that the old culture is not allowed to re-establish itself. I'd say a period of at least four academic years after football is re-introduced to the school should be sufficient."

 

[ace2000]

The trustees' duties are more than fiduciary. I would have wanted them to take immediate action following the release of the Grand Jury report last November

Last November? Because of the Grand Jury report? Is that the lynch mob behind you?

- I'm in favor of the statue coming down (based on what we know now) and the same for any other prominent attention directed towards Paterno.

- I'm not in favor of any other action towards the football team. Trust me, they'll suffer enough because of this episode.

Let it play out. Justice is already being served in this matter. So far, nobody has gotten off the hook, and it looks like the school will pay dearly.

 

[SueDonJ]

http://onwardstate.com/community/contrary-to-what-you-have-heard-the-freeh-report-has-big-problems/

Everyone should just calm down and let this thing work itself out. It will. The whole truth may be slow in coming, but true justice will be served once it does.

It is easy and safe to judge from an armchair.

As I said before, I can't honestly believe any of the four thought Sandusky was still actively abusing children. In today's society, it makes no sense. So I really want to know who did what when, and if therefore the 4 thought Sandusky had changed his ways (which no pedophile does). Or if they at least naively thought there were enough controls in place. Unlike TV, crimes and mysteries are not solved in an hour. Eventually this one will be, and THEN we can watch the two-hour film.

The three must be interviewed, as well as the Second Mile people.

You're right. I have no patience to wait for however long it takes for the trustees and administration to finally come to the realization that what is alleged to have happened, really did happen. That, yes, this is as bad as it could possibly be, and there is no salvaging the integrity that was an illusion in that football program for all those years. I waited out the discovery process for the Boston pedophile priest scandal and watched the archdiocese do further harm to those victims and our churches. It's painful to see similar damaging actions (and inaction) being taken at Penn State.

Patri, I truly mean this in as respectful a manner as possible. It does not appear that you have an understanding of how and why pedophiles insinuate themselves into positions where they are afforded "protection" that allows them to molest multiple victims over a long period. As unbelievable as it sounds to you, as much as you do not want to believe that men in positions of power enabled Jerry Sandusky, there is simply no way that he could have acted on his monstrous insticts, been the monster he was, without the implied consent of the men who protected him. No way. That's why this is as despicable a situation as it is.

I read your link. I don't agree with it. It reads as though the writer desperately wants to find a reason to doubt the expert investigators' reasonable conclusions. I think it's highly doubtful that his suppositions will come true.

 

[SueDonJ]

Last November? Because of the Grand Jury report? Is that the lynch mob behind you? ...

IMO it's good for a mob to be formed! We went over this in one of the other Penn State threads - if a mob had formed years ago when Sandusky's molestations first came to light, there wouldn't be any need for a mob to form now!

Want to know what I think has been the most correct action throughout this entire situation? On the day the Freeh report was released, Joe Paterno's name was removed from the Child Development Center at Nike headquarters. The CEO and President of Nike immediately determined that Joe Paterno's name no longer stood for decency or integrity or child protection, despite the fact that Nike founder Phil Knight was the person who was entrusted with delivering a eulogy for Joe Paterno.

Now that's integrity. That's doing the right thing.

 

[ace2000]

if a mob had formed years ago when Sandusky's molestations first came to light, there wouldn't be any need for a mob to form now!

You're missing the point. There is no need for a mob now.

 

[SueDonJ]

You're missing the point. There is no need for a mob now.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ace2000]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Trust me, we agree on a lot about this.

 

[Beefnot]

Wow SueDonJ. I abhor child rape just like the next normal person, and I actually do personally want to see paterno's legacy forever destroyed, and I do actually want to see the football program shut down as punishment (not shut down to change the culture, which could be changed without shutting down the program honestly). We probably agree on these things. But you are on a whole different plane, in another dimension, when it comes to what constitutes timely action. You do have lynch mob mentality. We still do not know what will happen, and Penn St. may or may not do what we believe to be the right thing, but what you proposed is not even in the realm of what any rational, deliberate governing body would have done.

 

[Beefnot]

political sound byte stuff? Huh? There's nothing political in my post. This has nothing to do with politics. He did not protect the children, therefore his precious statue does not deserve to be protected. Let the students drag it thru the streets like they did to Hussein's statue. Or better yet, let the VICTIMS drag it thru the streets. Poetic justice if you ask me.

Yes, sounds good, protecting the statue vs protecting a child, simple and pithy, plays well to make a cheap jab. But in actuality is much too simplistic. Trying to, as a body of individuals--with strong lobbying forces (points and counterpoints) on both sides of the issue--what to do, when, the implications, how exactly to manage the implications, etc., is an inordinately challenging, complex, and deliberate process. There are probably group conversations, side conversations, negotiations, debates, arguments, fights, you name it, going on up the totem pole, trying to grasp how exactly to handle what to do about the Penn St. pope, effectively.

Boy I wish we could use the Catholic Church scandal as a reference point to this discussion, but alas.