Open Season Rates no longer a good deal!!

[buzglyd]

That depends on the price you pay for the points.

I'm still not following you on that one.

 

[jestme]

It makes sense from a business perspective. HGVC only cares about sales. Once you buy, they need you to keep buying. They do not care if you already bought. That doesn't help them at all.

Ahh yes, but if the reason you bought was because as an owner, you got excellent rates on booking OTHER MEMBER'S rooms they weren't using right now, they should understand that there have lost a major sales benefit. I'm sure that is why they still quote a range for the rates, so the sales people can still try to use that benefit in their sales.
Members get no additional benefit from trading in a week in Hawaii than a week in Orlando for an RCI or other trade in, but now HGVC certainly wants to charge more for that Hawaii week they received for no additional cost to them. There is no justification for a 300% increase in 13 months other than financial greed and saying to us very loudly, too bad, so sad, there is nothing you can do about it.
Very simple, very old rule of business. "Make your current customers happy or you will need to get all new ones." Myself, I used to be a 100% committed HGVC owner and customer, as well as a Hilton restaurant and bar attendant, in addition to a Hilton hotel user for business and other personal travel. Now, not so much.

 

[Jason245]

I'm still not following you on that one.

If you pay $25000 for 3500 points, open season still makes financial sense.

The $400 a week price diference (savings between OS and MF ) takes 60 years to recoup (counting cost of capital, probably even longer).

 

[Jason245]

Ahh yes, but if the reason you bought was because as an owner, you got excellent rates on booking OTHER MEMBER'S rooms they weren't using right now, they should understand that there have lost a major sales benefit. I'm sure that is why they still quote a range for the rates, so the sales people can still try to use that benefit in their sales.
Members get no additional benefit from trading in a week in Hawaii than a week in Orlando for an RCI or other trade in, but now HGVC certainly wants to charge more for that Hawaii week they received for no additional cost to them. There is no justification for a 300% increase in 13 months other than financial greed and saying to us very loudly, too bad, so sad, there is nothing you can do about it.
Very simple, very old rule of business. "Make your current customers happy or you will need to get all new ones." Myself, I used to be a 100% committed HGVC owner and customer, as well as a Hilton restaurant and bar attendant, in addition to a Hilton hotel user for business and other personal travel. Now, not so much.

If your sole reason for purchasing was open season, then you purchased the wrong product for you. Open season is an ancelary benefit. Last time I checked, HGVC was still selling time shares with their own fancy internal exchange structure as the primary benefit.

As someone who used to spend over 100 nights a year in hotels, I can tell you that most hotel food is average in quality and above average in price. Same goes for drinks. You use those facilities for convinence. Personally, I would cook my own meals of higher quality then anything they could offer at a price that is much more reasonable. Even if I decided to pay, I could get a better deal going to a local restaurant and the quality is generally better. As for the bar service, usually a similar deal, except you are also overpaying for the privilage of possibly interacting with fellow guests who may or may not be all that interesting.

 

[alwysonvac]

I just posted a comment on their FB page and they redirected me to the thread that apparently wasn't deleted after all.
This is what is on there so far.

I posted another response to that same thread last night.
I can see my comment on my Facebook timeline but I don't see it on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations/posts/10153373544166978?pnref=story

Here's what I wrote and along with the attachment I provided:

** HGVC’S REASONS FOR THEIR HIGH INCREASE IN OPEN SEASON RATES **

As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.”

The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies.

We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.”

** AN OWNER RESPONSE **

= = SOLD OUT RESORTS ARE THE REASON FOR HIGHER RATES? = =
HGVC has many older resorts that have been sold out for years and HGVC has managed to offer Open Season rates for all resorts.
For years, HGVC has experienced high demand at their Hilton Hawaiian Village resorts. Anyone can take a look now at the 9 month Club Season availability at the Hilton Hawaiian Village to see that demand is always high. This is not new information. It’s been this way for years.

= = HILTON IS MOVING TO FLOATING RATE BUT OWNERS ARE STUCK ON FIXED RATES = =
HGVC has sold members on the principle that points are points with HGVC. Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points.

= = EXCHANGE DISPARITY FOR OWNERS GETS WORST IN 2015 = =
Most of the Club Partner Perks are valued at 10 cents per point so a standard two bedroom Platinum week worth 7,000 Club points receives a value of $700 (NOTE: This doesn’t even cover the cost an owner’s annual maintenance fee and the exchange/service fee). The current 2014 Open Season Rate more than covers the cost at $1,065 (weekday rate (5 x $145) + weekday rate (2 X $170)).

For HHonors, HGVC owners can convert their week for HHonors points but owners don’t get the equivalent value back. For example, a HGVC member that trade their standard two bedroom for HHonors points receives 161,000 HHonors (7,000 HGVC x 23 conversion rate) which is equivalent to 23,000 HHonors points per night. Hilton is requiring at least 60,000 HHonors points per night for a two bedroom at a HGVC resort.

 

[Jason245]

I posted another response to that same thread last night.
I can see my comment on my Facebook timeline but I don't see it on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations/posts/10153373544166978?pnref=story

Here's what I wrote and along with the attachment I provided:

** HGVC’S REASONS FOR THEIR HIGH INCREASE IN OPEN SEASON RATES **

As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.”

The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies.

We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.”

** AN OWNER RESPONSE **

= = SOLD OUT RESORTS ARE THE REASON FOR HIGHER RATES? = =
HGVC has many older resorts that have been sold out for years and HGVC has managed to offer Open Season rates for all resorts.
For years, HGVC has experienced high demand at their Hilton Hawaiian Village resorts. Anyone can take a look now at the 9 month Club Season availability at the Hilton Hawaiian Village to see that demand is always high. This is not new information. It’s been this way for years.

= = HILTON IS MOVING TO FLOATING RATE BUT OWNERS ARE STUCK ON FIXED RATES = =
HGVC has sold members on the principle that points are points with HGVC. Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points.

= = EXCHANGE DISPARITY FOR OWNERS GETS WORST IN 2015 = =
Most of the Club Partner Perks are valued at 10 cents per point so a standard two bedroom Platinum week worth 7,000 Club points receives a value of $700 (NOTE: This doesn’t even cover the cost an owner’s annual maintenance fee and the exchange/service fee). The current 2014 Open Season Rate more than covers the cost at $1,065 (weekday rate (5 x $145) + weekday rate (2 X $170)).

For HHonors, HGVC owners can convert their week for HHonors points but owners don’t get the equivalent value back. For example, a HGVC member that trade their standard two bedroom for HHonors points receives 161,000 HHonors (7,000 HGVC x 23 conversion rate) which is equivalent to 23,000 HHonors points per night. Hilton is requiring at least 60,000 HHonors points per night for a two bedroom at a HGVC resort.

I think you have a logic problem. Your MF goes towards the HOA. the only thing that Hilton truely gets every year is your membership fee, reservation fees and whatever other ancelary fees you pay.

Hilton is basically a self created exchange company (similar to RCI) that also manages several locations.

I am not defending their rate increase, but I want to point out the following:

1. Not every week that is used for club partner perks (or not used at all), is rented out to a customer (almost no hotel is at 100% occupancy, and probably fluctuates between 75% and 90% depending on season).

2. Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point). The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.


You as the consumer need to make a decision as to whether or not those club partner perks are of good value to you as they are the "lazy" option. For a little more work, someone could rent out their own week and probably get more value but it would take more work.. the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.

My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand. For all we know the percentage off is anywhere from 0-50%. Hard numbers would at least make us slightly more comfortable in understanding this new open season....

 

[Tamaradarann]

Where does Open Season Availability Come From

Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point). The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.

… the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.

My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand.

Jason, the above quotes from your recent post reminded me of some issues that I brought up in a recent e-mail I sent to Barbara Rinks, Director of Member Services at HGVC. By the way I do like your thought about 25% off non-member rate(rake rate is usually ridiculous high and nobody pays it) for open season inventory that is created by members using their points for partner perks or Hilton Honors conversion.

My next point I believe is an important distinction that needs to be clarified for me as well as all members. My understanding of the Open Season Inventory has always been that it is inventory that was derived from units that were not booked via the Home Week and Club Reservation process. The enclosed announcement mentions that the Open Season Inventory was primarily given back to the HGVC via Partner Perks. The treatment of these different types of inventory must be treated different. The unbooked inventory that was available in the 30-270 day Club Reservation window should continue to be available to owners/members at the current/previous lower rates. This is HGV Club inventory that members paid the maintenance for and just decided not to book using their points. They didn't trade that inventory for Hotel Rooms or Partner Perks. Since we have a points system all our weeks are automatically deposited in the inventory which is fine. However, it is still the owners/members inventory and should be offered to owners/members at the current/previous rates. However, inventory that does come from weeks that members deposited to Hilton Honors or to obtain Partner Perks certainly could be offered to members at the higher rates that are in the new rate chart that i would assume will again go into effect April 1.

 

[Jason245]

Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point). The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.

… the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.

My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand.

Jason, the above quotes from your recent post reminded me of some issues that I brought up in a recent e-mail I sent to Barbara Rinks, Director of Member Services at HGVC. By the way I do like your thought about 25% off non-member rate(rake rate is usually ridiculous high and nobody pays it) for open season inventory that is created by members using their points for partner perks or Hilton Honors conversion.

My next point I believe is an important distinction that needs to be clarified for me as well as all members. My understanding of the Open Season Inventory has always been that it is inventory that was derived from units that were not booked via the Home Week and Club Reservation process. The enclosed announcement mentions that the Open Season Inventory was primarily given back to the HGVC via Partner Perks. The treatment of these different types of inventory must be treated different. The unbooked inventory that was available in the 30-270 day Club Reservation window should continue to be available to owners/members at the current/previous lower rates. This is HGV Club inventory that members paid the maintenance for and just decided not to book using their points. They didn't trade that inventory for Hotel Rooms or Partner Perks. Since we have a points system all our weeks are automatically deposited in the inventory which is fine. However, it is still the owners/members inventory and should be offered to owners/members at the current/previous rates. However, inventory that does come from weeks that members deposited to Hilton Honors or to obtain Partner Perks certainly could be offered to members at the higher rates that are in the new rate chart that i would assume will again go into effect April 1.

You are suggesting a logistical nightmare that would be impossible. Remember that not every point or vacant room gets used. Hilton can not be expected to decide between which points/rooms they have available get rented for less or more. As such, they need to come to a happy medium. Just remember, that every empty unit you see at a location is money that hilton is not making during open season or non member reservations and is lost with those points going up in the air as dust.

 

[jestme]

You are suggesting a logistical nightmare that would be impossible. Remember that not every point or vacant room gets used. Hilton can not be expected to decide between which points/rooms they have available get rented for less or more. As such, they need to come to a happy medium. Just remember, that every empty unit you see at a location is money that hilton is not making during open season or non member reservations and is lost with those points going up in the air as dust.

If in fact, the resort is sold out, there is no loss to them at all. The MF's are paid for, and in addition, they do not have any costs to clean, heat, cool, check in, etc the unit when it is empty. Don't forget, there is an exchange fee when you trade in your points, or "rescue" them into the following year. Remember too, that the exchange you are exchanging into, also has vacancy, caused by a member who owns there, who is not using it, and they have paid their MF's for itas well. The exchange fee is simply for their service to make the exchange, they do not pay for the unit you exchanged into.
The points, by the way don't go up in dust. They can use them next week, or the week after or anytime. For Hilton, they never "expire". Let's not even discuss what happens to our "expired" points.
The Open Season cash advantage makes them additional money, for rooms that are not booked, and these increases are way out of line. Regardless of where they came from. The cost for renting those rooms is borne by the owners, through MF's, the HOA gets $0 from the rental.

 

[Jason245]

The points, by the way don't go up in dust. They can use them next week, or the week after or anytime.
The Open Season cash advantage makes them additional money, for rooms that are not booked, and these increases are way out of line. Regardless of where they came from. The cost for renting those rooms is borne by the owners, through MF's, the HOA gets $0 from the rental.

For HGVC, any vacant week is a loss and the points that were available in that week that they hold the bag on (either unsold inventory or owner owned and transfered to club perks, or not used) and any possible open season revenue have gone up in dust (unless you have a time machine and can somehow go back in time and get to use that week which was vacant).

people can "rescue" their points for another year, but the reality is that when those points are used, it eats into the open season availability for the next year.

Like a hotel, every vacant room at a timeshare is lost revenue that can be used to make up the cost of club perks and/or other costs to rent the week for non HGVC owned weeks, or the costs of MF for HGVC owned weeks.

 

[jestme]

For HGVC, any vacant week is a loss and the points that were available in that week that they hold the bag on (either unsold inventory or owner owned and transfered to club perks, or not used) and any possible open season revenue have gone up in dust (unless you have a time machine and can somehow go back in time and get to use that week which was vacant).

people can "rescue" their points for another year, but the reality is that when those points are used, it eats into the open season availability for the next year.

Like a hotel, every vacant room at a timeshare is lost revenue that can be used to make up the cost of club perks and/or other costs to rent the week for non HGVC owned weeks, or the costs of MF for HGVC owned weeks.

You missed one of the main points. There is no cost to Hilton for "club perks". Those are simply exchanges from other timeshare companies Hilton has an agreement with, where the other companies timeshare owners have traded in their week at their own "club perk" place, (a unit for which they have also paid the MF's for), in exchange for a Hilton timeshare. The other timeshare location charges those people an exchange fee to do the exchange, just like Hilton does. They are just acting as an agent for owners, and for exchangers. They have already been well paid for doing that service.
Hilton isn't left holding the bag, as they can use these points anytime. In fact, they could group the points all into "high demand" time and really rake in the cash.
Yes, it may be a "lost opportunity" this week, but in high demand locations, that rarely happens. In reality, it isn't any loss at all. The rooms are all bought and paid for anyhow. The only loss is their opportunity to "double dip" and re-rent a unit that someone who owns it isn't using that week.

 

[alwysonvac]

I think you have a logic problem. Your MF goes towards the HOA. the only thing that Hilton truely gets every year is your membership fee, reservation fees and whatever other ancelary fees you pay.

Where did I say MFs goes to Hilton?

All of the gray shaded column fall under the "points are points" logic. I was trying to highlight the point in reply that "Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points.

LOL, I was debating where to leave the MF column in my table.
I took it out but decided to put it back in to illustrate the cost difference across various resorts that I own.

Hilton is basically a self created exchange company (similar to RCI) that also manages several locations.

I am not defending their rate increase, but I want to point out the following:

1. Not every week that is used for club partner perks (or not used at all), is rented out to a customer (almost no hotel is at 100% occupancy, and probably fluctuates between 75% and 90% depending on season).

2. Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point). The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.

LOL.. who's side are you on?
Let's also include that not every week is rented via Open Season. Weeks are also rented at Hilton.com at a much higher nightly rate. There are also weeks that go unused by folks that simply pay their maintenance fee and never use it. These weeks go into Hilton's rental bucket.
NOTE: HGVC Resort Manager at the Hilton Hawaiian Village indicated that they are at 98% occupancy year round.


ALSO LET'S GET REAL....HGVC is not hurting if occupancy dips. THEY'RE JUST GREEDY!!
They get to resell the same units at developer prices over and over again (via ROFR).
They get to sucker folks into financing the deal through them.
They get to collect resort management fees on all of their properties.
Once they make their profit selling their timeshare resort, they make additional profit off the back of owners by renting these rooms at a profit.

You as the consumer need to make a decision as to whether or not those club partner perks are of good value to you as they are the "lazy" option. For a little more work, someone could rent out their own week and probably get more value but it would take more work.. the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.

My point is that they want to increase Open Season for owners without providing any increase value for owners.

Of course folks need to make a decision on the value of Club Partner Perks. We've discussed this numerous times on TUG. You're not stating anything new.

HGVC wrote in their response "As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes.". Honestly, I think the main reason they have less rental inventory is because they have lot less owners exchanging their HGVC points for HHonors points. They can easily be fixed if they gave us a fair exchange value.

My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand. For all we know the percentage off is anywhere from 0-50%. Hard numbers would at least make us slightly more comfortable in understanding this new open season....

If they simply want to offer a % off, I rather they just create a HGVC code to use at Hilton.com.
It doesn't have to be tied to Open Season at all. They can simply offer it anytime they want just to get rid of oversupply of inventory.

They can offer this in addition to Open Season. I want them to continue to maintain Open Season the same way they've done it in the past for last minute rentals at the current 2014 rates. For me, it's bad enough that HHonors has gotten so bad that we don't use it anymore. The only saving grace was the fact that I can still get low owner rental rate via Open season at HGVC resorts.

 

[Jason245]

You missed one of the main points. There is no cost to Hilton for "club perks". Those are simply exchanges from other timeshare companies Hilton has an agreement with, where the other companies timeshare owners have traded in their week at their own "club perk" place, (a unit for which they have also paid the MF's for), in exchange for a Hilton timeshare. The other timeshare location charges those people an exchange fee to do the exchange, just like Hilton does. They are just acting as an agent for owners, and for exchangers. They have already been well paid for doing that service.
Hilton isn't left holding the bag, as they can use these points anytime. In fact, they could group the points all into "high demand" time and really rake in the cash.
Yes, it may be a "lost opportunity" this week, but in high demand locations, that rarely happens. In reality, it isn't any loss at all. The rooms are all bought and paid for anyhow. The only loss is their opportunity to "double dip" and re-rent a unit that someone who owns it isn't using that week.

Last time I checked, club perks was for things like cruises, airline tickets, RV rentals, ETC... Hilton has cash outlay for that that they recoup through open season and non member rentals. If the week doesn't rent, they are holding the bag.

Hilton doesn't get maint fees paid to them, so there is no double dip.

 

[Jason245]

Where did I say MFs goes to Hilton?

All of the gray shaded column fall under the "points are points" logic. I was trying to highlight the point in reply that "Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points.

LOL, I was debating where to leave the MF column in my table.
I took it out but decided to put it back in to illustrate the cost difference across various resorts that I own.



LOL.. who's side are you on?
Let's also include that not every week is rented via Open Season. Weeks are also rented at Hilton.com at a much higher nightly rate. There are also weeks that go unused by folks that simply pay their maintenance fee and never use it. These weeks go into Hilton's rental bucket.
NOTE: HGVC Resort Manager at the Hilton Hawaiian Village indicated that they are at 98% occupancy year round.


ALSO LET'S GET REAL....HGVC is not hurting if occupancy dips. THEY'RE JUST GREEDY!!
They get to resell the same units at developer prices over and over again (via ROFR).
They get to sucker folks into financing the deal through them.
They get to collect resort management fees on all of their properties.
Once they make their profit selling their timeshare resort, they make additional profit off the back of owners by renting these rooms at a profit.



My point is that they want to increase Open Season for owners without providing any increase value for owners.

Of course folks need to make a decision on the value of Club Partner Perks. We've discussed this numerous times on TUG. You're not stating anything new.

HGVC wrote in their response "As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes.". Honestly, I think the main reason they have less rental inventory is because they have lot less owners exchanging their HGVC points for HHonors points. They can easily be fixed if they gave us a fair exchange value.



If they simply want to offer a % off, I rather they just create a HGVC code to use at Hilton.com.
It doesn't have to be tied to Open Season at all. They can simply offer it anytime they want just to get rid of oversupply of inventory.

They can offer this in addition to Open Season. I want them to continue to maintain Open Season the same way they've done it in the past for last minute rentals at the current 2014 rates. For me, it's bad enough that HHonors has gotten so bad that we don't use it anymore. The only saving grace was the fact that I can still get low owner rental rate via Open season at HGVC resorts.

First of all, I hate it when prices go up. At the same time, I am trained as an accountant and business consultant, as a result, whenever companies make decisions that effect price, quality or quantity of service, I always take a step back and try to fully understand what the potential drivers are of that action.

Hawaii may be booked at 98% occupancy, but what is the occupancy at the florida resorts and Vegas resorts?

As for the whole, financing, sale and ROFR question, that is their primary business and revenue stream. ROFR actually hurts us a lot more then you can possibly imagine when it comes to our ability to negotiate for better open season. For example, Parc Soliel has space to build several more buildings, but they haven't even broken ground on them... why? because they don't need to build the inventory when they can ROFR and resale what they have previously sold. As such, there are fewer rooms, fewer vacancies and it benefits them on the supply/demand equation (especially in Orlando).

The whole exchanging for HH thing and anything else other than nights at Hilton resorts (and maybe RCI resorts) is a terrible deal for owners and was always a terrible deal for owners. Using my Hilton amex, I can literally buy 3000 HH points for less than $6 in cost. Even If I owned 7000 points annually and was getting 50 HHNORS points per point and the exchange to HH free, the MF and membership fee would still cost more combined than the $700 it would cost for 350,000 HH points and I get diamond status to boot.

Open season is a nice ancillary benefit, and I know that it is part of their sales pitch as a way to justify buying a HGVC timeshare (at the presentation I just went to, the sales guy was quoting 2014 rates and saying "Hilton wouldn't raise raise that much, otherwise it would piss off all the members, and why would they do that?" which has me laughing so hard on the inside). The reality is that I hate it that I used to get 42 ounces of orange juice in a box and now I get 38 for the same price. I hate the fact that a package that had 40 rolls of toilet paper a month ago now says 38 rolls plus two bonus (soon to just say 38 rolls). I think that open season should operate almost like Costco (cost + some set percentage of profit). The only way to voice your displeasure is with your wallet, that is my plan. I will use HH points to book free hotel rooms instead of using open season. Even At 60k points a night, it would cost me $120 a night, I would get all the benefits of being diamond, and I wouldn't have to pay any tax on the room.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Open Season Availability Derivation

You are suggesting a logistical nightmare that would be impossible. Remember that not every point or vacant room gets used. Hilton can not be expected to decide between which points/rooms they have available get rented for less or more. As such, they need to come to a happy medium. Just remember, that every empty unit you see at a location is money that hilton is not making during open season or non member reservations and is lost with those points going up in the air as dust.

I started this thread and I certainly am as angry as anyone that they are raising the open season rates. I would love HGVC not to raise open season rates at all. I believe that HGVC is set on raising the open season rates in April. However, I believe that distinguishing between the origination of open season availability is imperative to owners/members complaint against and HGVC argument in favor of raising rates.

HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks. Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period. That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve. We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates. Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability. We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.

However, inventory that was created due to member depositing their points to Hilton Honors or Partner Perks is inventory that a member gave up for those other vacation opportunities. If Hilton wants to rent that inventory on Hilton Honors they should be able. If they want to let us rent that inventory at a separate Open Season List,than the one I mention above, at higher rates, like they are very likely to do, or thru Hilton Honors at say a 25%discount that is an opportunity that we are not owed and would be welcome.

 

[Jason245]

I started this thread and I certainly am as angry as anyone that they are raising the open season rates. I would love HGVC not to raise open season rates at all. I believe that HGVC is set on raising the open season rates in April. However, I believe that distinguishing between the origination of open season availability is imperative to owners/members complaint against and HGVC argument in favor of raising rates.

HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks. Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period. That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve. We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates. Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability. We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.

However, inventory that was created due to member depositing their points to Hilton Honors or Partner Perks is inventory that a member gave up for those other vacation opportunities. If Hilton wants to rent that inventory on Hilton Honors they should be able. If they want to let us rent that inventory at a separate Open Season List,than the one I mention above, at higher rates, like they are very likely to do, or thru Hilton Honors at say a 25%discount that is an opportunity that we are not owed and would be welcome.

I fully understand your frustration. Next time you are at one of the resorts and they try to get you to go to an update, tell them that you are mad at Hilton for raising the rates. If you are in Orlando and there is someone from corporate on site, ask to speak to them and tell them in person how mad you are. Complain to your HOA about how Hilton is renting rooms out for significant profit and the owners aren't seeing any true benefits.

Speak with your wallet and don't book open season. If demand drys up, prices will drop.

 

[alwysonvac]

Hawaii may be booked at 98% occupancy, but what is the occupancy at the florida resorts and Vegas resorts?

Don't know. Don't care. I was just noting the occupancy level at HHV where they make their biggest bang for the buck.

As for the whole, financing, sale and ROFR question, that is their primary business and revenue stream. ROFR actually hurts us a lot more then you can possibly imagine when it comes to our ability to negotiate for better open season. For example, Parc Soliel has space to build several more buildings, but they haven't even broken ground on them... why? because they don't need to build the inventory when they can ROFR and resale what they have previously sold. As such, there are fewer rooms, fewer vacancies and it benefits them on the supply/demand equation (especially in Orlando).

They really didn't need to build Parc Soliel. They already had lots of inventory with their two Orlando resorts before Parc Soliel was ever build. Orlando has always been the easiest resorts to book with lots of Open Season availability.

The whole exchanging for HH thing and anything else other than nights at Hilton resorts (and maybe RCI resorts) is a terrible deal for owners and was always a terrible deal for owners.

Yes, it's a terrible deal now and I've always warned folks for years not to buy HGVC for HHonors.
You haven't been on the TUG boards long enough to see the HHonors deevaluation warning threads from time to time.

But it wasn't always a terrible deal. Here's a little tidbit from my 2009 TUG post.
At the time Premium was the top hotel/resort category in HHonors.

A little Hilton HHonors history...

Years ago, HHonors had the following VIP awards
ALON - Six free nights for two at a Hilton Hawaiian resort for 100K
TEEN - Six free nights for two at selected HHonors golf resorts in the U.S. 100k
GLON - Six free nights for two at participating HHonors hotels worldwide for 100K
GLONP - Six free nights for two at participating Premium HHonors hotels worldwide for 150k GLONP
NOTE: Back then a lot of the Hilton Properties fell into the GLON bucket. So one could easy book a stay worldwide for 100,000 HHonor points. A one bedroom platinum owner (4800 HGVC Points) could convert their HGVC to HHonors points to get the six night VIP award for 100,000 points.

Open season is a nice ancillary benefit, and I know that it is part of their sales pitch as a way to justify buying a HGVC timeshare (at the presentation I just went to, the sales guy was quoting 2014 rates and saying "Hilton wouldn't raise raise that much, otherwise it would piss off all the members, and why would they do that?" which has me laughing so hard on the inside). The reality is that I hate it that I used to get 42 ounces of orange juice in a box and now I get 38 for the same price. I hate the fact that a package that had 40 rolls of toilet paper a month ago now says 38 rolls plus two bonus (soon to just say 38 rolls). I think that open season should operate almost like Costco (cost + some set percentage of profit).

You need to understand that it's more than just a nice ancillary benefit. You can't compare it to the increase price of OJ or Toliet Paper. Some folks spent tens of thousands up front. It's not just as simple to walk away and go to another supplier. Folks were sold on the prepaid vacation idea that include hotel stays, low owner rental rates, exchanging, partner perks, etc. They were basically lied to. Costs are increasing and owners are getting less value in return.

The only way to voice your displeasure is with your wallet, that is my plan.

Exactly, that is my plan too. However my plan doesn't include any of business going to Hilton.

 

[Jason245]

Interesting side note.

I was reading the Financial statements for the bay club, and they have a 60/40 split on rental income with the developer (not hgvc). in 2013 (the last audited financials) the 40% accounted for 53k in revenue to the association, which is reducing MF costs at the bay club (not a big number, but still anything is better than nothing).

Also, HGVC directly owned 306 unit weeks and had to pay $380k in maint fees.

Lets assume they have 90% occupancy, and we do simple math.

306 *90% = 275 weeks.

$380,000 / 275 weeks = a average cost of $1382 in MF /week paid directly to the bay club.

1382/7 = average of $197/night required minimum rental rate for break even

At 100% occupancy (a virtual impossibility) we are talking about an average cost of $177 a night.

If you look at the 2014 open season rates you will see that they were probably subsidizing around 10-15% per room just in MF cost (more if you factor the administrative costs).

I know we have already discussed the whole Hilton should subsidize open season as a benefit to members thing, but I wanted to put real numbers on paper based on the audited financials so you could better see how much this was costing Hilton (at just one resort).

 

[chriskre]

If you are in Orlando and there is someone from corporate on site, ask to speak to them and tell them in person how mad you are. Complain to your HOA about how Hilton is renting rooms out for significant profit and the owners aren't seeing any true benefits.

Speak with your wallet and don't book open season. If demand drys up, prices will drop.

No need to voice my opinion about OS any more than I have on their Facebook page. They don't want to hear it on Facebook nor in person. :annoyed:
So I'll be doing as you say and speaking with my wallet.

I'm glad that I own several timeshares and always have tons of options to use in II and RCI where I can just go slum it at Oasis Lakes or Grande Vista next door to my formerly favorite OS heavy Tuscany home resort.
I can get a week for the same price HGVC was getting from me for just a few nights. Now with these new rates they can for sure fuggggedddaboutit.

 

[Jason245]

Don't know. Don't care. I was just noting the occupancy level at HHV where they make their biggest bang for the buck.

When your inventory is all over the country, one cow doesn't counteract 10 dogs.

They really didn't need to build Parc Soliel. They already had lots of inventory with their two Orlando resorts before Parc Soliel was ever build. Orlando has always been the easiest resorts to book with lots of Open Season availability.

More inventory = lower prices = lower open season rates. Economics 101, Supply and demand.

Yes, it's a terrible deal now and I've always warned folks for years not to buy HGVC for HHonors.
You haven't been on the TUG boards long enough to see the HHonors deevaluation warning threads from time to time.

I have been in the points game for over a decade. I have earned and burned millions of points taking first class trips to Europe (back when air france had first class cabins), stayed at the best hotels (westin, intercontinental, Waldorf ETC), at costs of pennies on the dollar.

There is one consistency with all the programs, benefits decline over time. This is a fact. airlines increase mileage redemption requirements for award fares, hotel chains increase point requirements, etc...

The trick has always been to learn the "loopholes" in the systems and make the best use of them. It takes time research and patience, but once you learn them, you can take advantage.

You need to understand that it's more than just a nice ancillary benefit. You can't compare it to the increase price of OJ or Toliet Paper. Some folks spent tens of thousands up front. It's not just as simple to walk away and go to another supplier. Folks were sold on the prepaid vacation idea that include hotel stays, low owner rental rates, exchanging, partner perks, etc. They were basically lied to. Costs are increasing and owners are getting less value in return.

Timeshares are and always have been a sunk cost. DVC is the best example of this because in 50 years, you have nothing for what was paid. Other companies (HGVC) give you perpetual MF liabilities until the day you die and your descendants refuse to accept the deed. Like annuities, they should only be owned by a select group of people with specific needs that are fulfilled by the primary benefit.

I hate to say it, but anyone buying a timeshare ,a home, or a car, or any product for thousands of dollars just based on a 2 hour presentation, not reading a single thing about the rules, regulations, uses and not doing any third party research has generally just paid a very expensive tuition for an education to learn how to manage personal finances and personal business affairs. Asking costs not to increase when the CPI is going up is like asking the tides to never rise. Why do you think that they came up with new larger points packages. I actually expect them to increase the minimum points requirements for Elite pretty soon if the business trend stays the same (within the next 10 years) as all units at the new resorts will be higher point packages than the current minimum for Elite.

It sucks, but it is the world we live in.

 

[alwysonvac]

Well, I can see that there just isn't any point in discussing this any further.
You're willing to take whatever they dish out

 

[Jason245]

Well, I can see that there just isn't any point in discussing this any further.
You're willing to take whatever they dish out

I am actually very pissed... I live within 3-4 hours of I think over 10 resorts. I was planning on using open season regularly to supplement my eoy package.

I now have to revise my travel planning back to using points at hotels when no hgvc points are available and open season rates don't make sense.

I realized that there is little I can do to change this other than make a useless complaint to hgvc. So I need to adapt. Make sure I take maximum advantage of the remaining loopholes in hgvc program, enjoy the vacations I get to take with my family, and if necessary, stay on the lookout for any significantly below market price deals to increase my points while mitigating my risk of losing significant money on the acquisition costs.

 

[Beefnot]

I am actually very pissed... I live within 3-4 hours of I think over 10 resorts. I was planning on using open season regularly to supplement my eoy package.

I now have to revise my travel planning back to using points at hotels when no hgvc points are available and open season rates don't make sense.

I realized that there is little I can do to change this other than make a useless complaint to hgvc. So I need to adapt. Make sure I take maximum advantage of the remaining loopholes in hgvc program, enjoy the vacations I get to take with my family, and if necessary, stay on the lookout for any significantly below market price deals to increase my points while mitigating my risk of losing significant money on the acquisition costs.

Or you can augment with a cheap Marriott trader and learn the II exchange game.

 

[Jason245]

Or you can augment with a cheap Marriott trader and learn the II exchange game.

Based on my research and the current vacation pattern of my family, HGVC is probably the best option (although DVC comes in at a close second with the primary difference being price, resort locations in my vicinity, and the type of ownership). We do not take 1 week getaways, and instead take a trip almost every month for a long weekend with about 1-2 big trips a year (currently cruises).

Given those factors and my understanding of how Marriott works (I have a Aunt and Uncle that own a week in Hilton Head), I don't see the fit (although I know that they are working towards their own points program, and I need to do more research on that). HGVC also seems less punitive to resale owners than Marriott. I actually have no idea how DVC treats resale, but from my reading, noone can be worse than Hellgate.

 

[Talent312]

No matter how they rationalize it, HGVC is clearly ripping off the owners.
Any days we don't book w/points they use as an opportunity to put cash in their coffers.

However, I am not wedded to the Hilton brand (sacrilege!), and when planning my trips, I cast a wide net for the best possible deal. Sometimes that's Hilton, but often not. If my $$ go father in a non-HGVC resort so be it.