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Open Season Rates no longer a good deal!!

alwysonvac

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My next point I believe is an important distinction that needs to be clarified for me as well as all members. My understanding of the Open Season Inventory has always been that it is inventory that was derived from units that were not booked via the Home Week and Club Reservation process. The enclosed announcement mentions that the Open Season Inventory was primarily given back to the HGVC via Partner Perks. The treatment of these different types of inventory must be treated different. The unbooked inventory that was available in the 30-270 day Club Reservation window should continue to be available to owners/members at the current/previous lower rates. This is HGV Club inventory that members paid the maintenance for and just decided not to book using their points. They didn't trade that inventory for Hotel Rooms or Partner Perks. Since we have a points system all our weeks are automatically deposited in the inventory which is fine. However, it is still the owners/members inventory and should be offered to owners/members at the current/previous rates. However, inventory that does come from weeks that members deposited to Hilton Honors or to obtain Partner Perks certainly could be offered to members at the higher rates that are in the new rate chart that i would assume will again go into effect April 1.

I'm going to suggest this via email to HGVC. I agree that the inventory should be kept separate.

I agree that most of us on TUG assumed that HGVC inventory gained from HHonors and Club Partner Perks were available via Hilton.com website. That's what we told folks for years that came to TUG complaining when they saw no online inventory via HGVC reservation but found inventory via the Hilton.com website. I'm assuming this inventory is earmarked for the Hilton.com early on (not within the 30 day window). Any other leftover inventory at the 30 day mark should remain with HGVC under the old Open Season Rates.

If Hilton.com wants to offer any of their left over inventory to owners then they can do so at their hilton.com via a special HGVC owner discount code (under their discount code section on the Hilton.com reservation page) keeping the two inventories separate.
 

Tamaradarann

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Open Season Rates on Club Reservation Inventory

No matter how they rationalize it, HGVC is clearly ripping off the owners.
Any days we don't book w/points they use as an opportunity to put cash in their coffers.

Talent, I totally agree with this statement. That is why I posted the following as well as sent it to Barbara Rinks, Director of HGVC Services.

Jason, while I agree we cannot really do anything to directly force HGVC to not raise the Open Season Rates, we can assert that they should be treating availability that was not booked during the Club Reservation Period differently from other availability that HGVC makes available for Open Season reservations.

HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks. Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period. That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve. We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates. Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability. We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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Well, I can see that there just isn't any point in discussing this any further.
You're willing to take whatever they dish out :wave:

Or go back to the basics...The original idea behind Timeshares was to buy a week at a place and go back there year after year.

Everything else has been an add-on to attract customers who didn't fit the the basic idea.

For those few of us who fit the original idea, it's still a great choice, especially when you can buy them cheap in the aftermarket. Actually Hilton is now far better than Marriott for traditional owners. (I speak as a Marriott owner.)
 

Jason245

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No matter how they rationalize it, HGVC is clearly ripping off the owners.
Any days we don't book w/points they use as an opportunity to put cash in their coffers.

Talent, I totally agree with this statement. That is why I posted the following as well as sent it to Barbara Rinks, Director of HGVC Services.

Jason, while I agree we cannot really do anything to directly force HGVC to not raise the Open Season Rates, we can assert that they should be treating availability that was not booked during the Club Reservation Period differently from other availability that HGVC makes available for Open Season reservations.

HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks. Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period. That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve. We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates. Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability. We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.


So answer this question:

Hilton customer with 7000 points converts 2000 points via a club perk. Should those points be treated as platnum, silver, gold or bronze when using them for open season inventory reservations?

Who eats the cost of an empty room in southbeach if it isn't rented and assuming the resort is 100% occupancy and that room is the deeded week of the customer who used the perks? Those are points that were in the system that are now used up.


If you say Hilton should eat all the costs, and owners and members should only get benefits then you are taking an approach that is not feasable for HGVC. A better alternative option would be for HGVC to build in a mechanism where owners can rent their unused points out to others with perhaps them taking a small comission through the HGVC website.

Alternativly, maybe some generous HGVC owners can just decide to rent out their units for the old open season rates......
 

Tamaradarann

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I'm going to suggest this via email to HGVC. I agree that the inventory should be kept separate.

I agree that most of us on TUG assumed that HGVC inventory gained from HHonors and Club Partner Perks were available via Hilton.com website. That's what we told folks for years that came to TUG complaining when they saw no online inventory via HGVC reservation but found inventory via the Hilton.com website. I'm assuming this inventory is earmarked for the Hilton.com early on (not within the 30 day window). Any other leftover inventory at the 30 day mark should remain with HGVC under the old Open Season Rates.

If Hilton.com wants to offer any of their left over inventory to owners then they can do so at their hilton.com via a special HGVC owner discount code (under their discount code section on the Hilton.com reservation page) keeping the two inventories separate.

Thank you alwysonvac for understanding my point. Hilton is trying to justify this huge Open Season Increase by saying that owner/members deposited the points to get Perks and they are generously letting us rent some rooms at rates that are slightly reduced off rack rate since there is availability. I bet that comparatively few owner/members deposit their expensive to buy and maintain Hawaii points for Perks so that the inventory, particularly in Honolulu, does not derive from this method. The Open Season inventory in Honolulu is from availability that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Period. That is our(owner/members) inventory that we should be able to reserve at the old/current Open Season Rates.
 

Tamaradarann

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Points Deposited for Club Perk

Jason, this is a quote from your last post.

Hilton customer with 7000 points converts 2000 points via a club perk. Should those points be treated as platnum, silver, gold or bronze when using them for open season inventory reservations?

That is a good question to ask HGVC. Since an owner/member depositing points for Perks could have numbers of timeshare contracts which resort, season, unit size does HGVC take the availability from? I would hope HGVC takes it from one of the resorts with loads of availability during a low season so that the highly sought after Club Reservation Inventory is not reduced for owner/member point reservations. Of course, as I have stated before, if the Open Season inventory is from inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation window it is a moot point.
 

alwysonvac

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Thank you alwysonvac for understanding my point. Hilton is trying to justify this huge Open Season Increase by saying that owner/members deposited the points to get Perks and they are generously letting us rent some rooms at rates that are slightly reduced off rack rate since there is availability. I bet that comparatively few owner/members deposit their expensive to buy and maintain Hawaii points for Perks so that the inventory, particularly in Honolulu, does not derive from this method. The Open Season inventory in Honolulu is from availability that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Period. That is our(owner/members) inventory that we should be able to reserve at the old/current Open Season Rates.

Hmmmm....Well, I always thought they took inventory from any HGVC resort (regardless of home resort) since points are points during Club Season. Here's what I wrote in an old 2010 TUG thread regarding renting (see below)....

Keep in mind that Hilton is not going to rent every unit they offer on Hilton.com. So selling some nights at the more expensive HGVC resorts balances out the ones that that no one rents.

HGVC needs to get back money on all of the alternate options that they offer (hotel stays, HHonors points, travel certificates, cruises, etc), I believe they use a good chunk of these HGVC points to rent HGVC units at one of their most profitable locations within the Hilton Family which is the Hilton Hawaiian Village. They also probably get more bang for the buck with an Oahu rental than a Orlando or Vegas rental which probably helps them during downturns in the travel industry.

I also believe that HGVC is probably releasing whatever they're unable to rent. Perhaps they could manage the releasing a little better but at least now we know to keep looking.
 

jestme

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If you say Hilton should eat all the costs, and owners and members should only get benefits then you are taking an approach that is not feasable for HGVC. A better alternative option would be for HGVC to build in a mechanism where owners can rent their unused points out to others with perhaps them taking a small comission through the HGVC website.

Alternativly, maybe some generous HGVC owners can just decide to rent out their units for the old open season rates......

Renting out unused rooms at a small commission is how the sales person explained Open Season to us. Hilton doesn't pay for any of the exchanges we change into. It would make absolutely no business sense for them to make commitments like that just as a "perk". An RV rental gamble doesn't fit into the business model.
I'll repeat again, there is no cost to Hilton to Open Season, it is all a pure cash to them.
BTW, your financial statement evaluation of the Bay Club HOA simply shows that Hilton pays the same MF's as the rest of the owners, and so they should. If they own 20% of the rooms, they should pay 20% of the costs. The thing you did miss, is that Hilton manages the Bay club, and there is a Bay Club set of books, outside of the HGVC owners financial statement, that shows the expense to Hilton from the Bay Club for the management of their resort. That will cover the "administrative costs". Also, the Bay Club revenue from Hilton you see on the statement could also be from Hilton.com, not necessarily an HGVC contribution.
 

alwysonvac

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Or go back to the basics...The original idea behind Timeshares was to buy a week at a place and go back there year after year.

Everything else has been an add-on to attract customers who didn't fit the the basic idea.

For those few of us who fit the original idea, it's still a great choice, especially when you can buy them cheap in the aftermarket. Actually Hilton is now far better than Marriott for traditional owners. (I speak as a Marriott owner.)

Yes, I agree if that was the main purpose of your purchase then this particular change has no immediate impact to you. And there are probably lots of HGVC members who care less about this change since they never used Open Season and never plan to.

But keep in mind that Hilton sold folks on various owner benefits (not on the basic original idea of timeshares). As a result, various owners bought for various reasons. Hilton sold them on the idea that they can travel anywhere/anytime via the HGVC club resorts, Hilton hotels/resorts worldwide, timeshare exchanges, lower open season rates for owners, etc.

As these extra owner benefits continue to get stripped and Annual Maintenance Fees, Reservation Fees, Club Dues, Exchanging fee, etc continue to rise, more and more folks are going see no benefit in owning and abandon their timeshare (basically stop paying their maintenance fee) which will impact the HOA and all owners. NOTE: Keep in mind that timeshares with high maintenance fees are harder to get rid of and HGVC ROFR only exist if there is demand

As you can see by my username, I'm one of those TUG members who owns several different timeshare. Each one in my timeshare portfolio serves a purpose. My primary purpose for buying HGVC was for HHV stays. However I also had several HHonors exchanges when the point requirements were favorable and I also like the open season options for my visits to Hawaii, Orlando and Miami when I need an extra night here and there. With the Open Season Rental Rates increasing and resort maintenance issues increasing, I'm not feeling the love.
 
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Jason245

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Jason, this is a quote from your last post.

Hilton customer with 7000 points converts 2000 points via a club perk. Should those points be treated as platnum, silver, gold or bronze when using them for open season inventory reservations?

That is a good question to ask HGVC. Since an owner/member depositing points for Perks could have numbers of timeshare contracts which resort, season, unit size does HGVC take the availability from? I would hope HGVC takes it from one of the resorts with loads of availability during a low season so that the highly sought after Club Reservation Inventory is not reduced for owner/member point reservations. Of course, as I have stated before, if the Open Season inventory is from inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation window it is a moot point.


The reality is:
Open season is from inventory that was not reserved during the club reservation window for a variatiy of reasons probably primarily:

1. Transfers to Club perks or HH.
2. The "rescue" of points for an additional year by people.
3. Hilton owned inventory

What people keep forgetting is that if you rescue your points, you will are taking a week or portion thereof from next year that could have been used by HGVC as either open season, a rental, or by a club member.

When you borrow points from next year, you are doing a similar thing but in inverse.

From my understanding (reviewing all the information I can), the system works as below:

There are a set number of points in the entire HGVC system (for simplicity sakes, I am going to say 1 Million points of time/year).

Of that one million points, HGVC owns in unsold inventory a portion (lets say, 300, 000 points which they are required to pay maint fee on.

During the year, customers transfer points to club partner perks or HHonors which cost real money for HGVC to provide (Yes, HH costs HGVC money, they are buying those points from Hilton hotels). Lets say for simplicity, that the cost is $0.10 per point. Lets also say that 100,000 points are used for this purpose (so HGVC pays $10,000 for owner benefits outside of the HGVC product mix for 100,000 points being added to their pool).

Now HGVC has a pool of 400,000 points of their inventory (part of which they paid cash for to owners who paid their maint fee).

They allow people to borrow from next year points and bring to current year and also allow people to rescure points from current year for future year. Lets assume that people borrow 100,000 points (free) and rescue 50,000 points (they generate some revenue from this).

This leaves them with 400,000 points - 100,000 non owner owned points borrowed + 50,000 points pushed into next year = 350,000 points of flexability in the system.

Lets assume that all rCI reservations outbound = RCI inbound so that nets to nothing.

Hilton also issues bonus points out to retail buyers like candy. Lets assume for my example that they issue 100,000 in bonus points or VIP packages etc and sell 50,000 in points to new customers.

Remaining pot of points in the HGVC controlled points bucket is 350,000 - 100,000 - 50,000 = 200,000 points.

Hilton also Spends money either exercising ROFR or through construction to add more points under its control (lets say they do that for 50,000 points)

So at the end of the day they end up with 250,000 points in the HGVC controlled bucket (they are just like you and me, an owner of points in the HGVC system).

Lets also (for simplicity sake) assume that all the owners use 100% of the points that are not traded or used for clubperks. If the points arn't used in current year they will be either rescued or traded into RCI (the logical thing that owners would do for any material amount of points).

HGVC now looks for ways to monitize the points similar to the way that many people here look to do it only they have more limitations (they can not borrow points, rescue points, and only have access to inventory that isn't reserved by club members [eg. they arn't holding on to the "hot weeks" to try to rent them for significant profit like some of the exchanges have been accused of doing].

Their process is probably something like this:

30 day window:

Unreserved inventory is immediatly marketed through all available channels.

If reserved with points by a member = No revenue, and all the marketing expense and administrative expense posting the night on Hilton.Com and Open season goes to waste.

If rented by a non-member - HGVC decreases their controlled points for that time interval and they get the cash for this and they get the highest cash in for that rate but also have to incure additional expenses (they need to pay an expense for the HH earned by the customer , probably have to pay the hilton unit and/or third party reservation site some type of comission, have to provide status benefits etc, etc...). This is probably the most expensive type of customer to rent to.

If rented to a HGVC member (the ideal cash customer) - HGVC decreases their points and gets cash. These customers are the least expensive to serve as they don't get HH points, the marketing is free, there is no comission to be paid on the room reservation etc.

If the room is not rented (worst case scenario) - Hilton loses the points assoiated from that week in their bucket and has paid either MF or cash for something that they received no benefit from.

Does this add the clarity as to how this process works? The non member rate might seem high, but the costs associate with it (commission (don't know the current rates, but I assume it is somewhere in range of 10%, HH point purchase to cover the rental, and additional benefits, as well as the extra houskeeping cost that they need to pay the HOA to cover for hotel style guests who expect daily housekeeping), might make that $400 room only return $200 cash in HGVC pocket.

This post might also help some on the board understanding that HGVC buys the HH points from Hilton hotels at some rate per point. If Hilton makes the points worth less benefit but still charges the same rate to HGVC per point and HGVC is only willing to give 10 cents per points in cash, the 25/1 ratio stays the same. If Hilton decreases the cost per point by 50%, all of a sudden you will see HGVC increase the ratio to 50/1.

Again, the above is my high level understanding of how HGVC system works based on the information I have been able to gather (phone reps and PR people are paid to present things in simplified ways that can more or less get you off their back ASAP, explaining the above to every single customer who asks would take hours).

If there is something I am missing, or some type of document or understanding I am confused about, please feel free to point it out.
 
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Jason245

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BTW, your financial statement evaluation of the Bay Club HOA simply shows that Hilton pays the same MF's as the rest of the owners, and so they should. If they own 20% of the rooms, they should pay 20% of the costs. The thing you did miss, is that Hilton manages the Bay club, and there is a Bay Club set of books, outside of the HGVC owners financial statement, that shows the expense to Hilton from the Bay Club for the management of their resort. That will cover the "administrative costs". Also, the Bay Club revenue from Hilton you see on the statement could also be from Hilton.com, not necessarily an HGVC contribution.


First of all, as per the notes of the financial statements, the only revenue that is received from HGVC is maint fees. There is nothing else (check out the related party transaction notes if you are confused).

Bay club pays HGVC a management fee, but HGVC in turn pays employees to manage the resort (that management fee covers payroll and salaries of everyone from the bellhop at the front desk to the person who answers the phone)

Of the $4 Million that was paid to hilton by the bay club in 2013, $3 Million was paid for payroll and salaries and financial services for onsite activites. $1 Million was paid as a management fee to Hilton, which is used to cover expenses related to HGVC as a whole for G&A related activities and IT activities (maintaining web site, paying for employee salaries for employees that benefit all HGVC properties such as procurment (negotiating discounted pricing with shared vendors), ). This is an outsourced service fee and is probably less expensive then self managing.

HGVC management services act as an independent business unit and has to be profitable as well. That being said, the audited financial statements provide pretty clear visibility into the bay club, provide factual evidence that no revenue is received by the bay club if Hilton rents out units, and HGVC is forced to eat the cost of any points not rented by them that are related to those units.

I highly recommend you read the financials for properties you own, as an owner it is your right to see them, as a TUGGER, it is your responsibility to understand them so that you can know that those MF you keep paying (your money) are being used appropriatly and in a fiscally responsibile way (audited financial statements only give you information of what your HOA did, and do not express any opinion on whether or not the HOA is operating in a way you view as fiscally responsibile, if you don't understand something, it is your right to ask the board to explain to you what that item means, and why it is justifiable).
 
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alwysonvac

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The latest Facebook response - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations/posts/10153373544166978?pnref=story

Hilton Grand Vacations
Your feedback is so appreciated, and we want to assure you that you’ve been heard ... and we’ve taken action. As we regrettably did not provide ample notice regarding changes to the Open Season fee structure for the year ahead, we are committed to easing any inconvenience by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.

· We will be notifying you of the updated fee structure to be implemented as of the second quarter of 2015.
· For those who had confirmed Open Season reservations at the former rates, please be assured the rate will be adjusted and your refund will be acknowledged at check-in (as applicable).

We sincerely appreciate your loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.
 

chriskre

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Hilton Grand Vacations
Your feedback is so appreciated, and we want to assure you that you’ve been heard ... and we’ve taken action. As we regrettably did not provide ample notice regarding changes to the Open Season fee structure for the year ahead, we are committed to easing any inconvenience by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.

· We will be notifying you of the updated fee structure to be implemented as of the second quarter of 2015.
· For those who had confirmed Open Season reservations at the former rates, please be assured the rate will be adjusted and your refund will be acknowledged at check-in (as applicable).

We sincerely appreciate your loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.

I'm so sad to see this perk diminishing.:bawl:
I have yet to use my points in Orlando yet have done many stays on OS.
I was one of their biggest cheerleaders, now I'm disappointed that I have to look for other options.
Luckily I am a lowly EOY owner and can still get use out of this ownership using it at the SW FL affiliates
so all is not lost, but I certainly don't see any reason to add on anymore points, that's for sure. :annoyed:
 

Tamaradarann

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Derivation of Open Season Inventory

Jason, this is a quote from your recent post:

The reality is:
Open season is from inventory that was not reserved during the club reservation window for a variatiy of reasons probably primarily:

1. Transfers to Club perks or HH.
2. The "rescue" of points for an additional year by people.
3. Hilton owned inventory

The reason that inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Window was that owner/members did not choose to use their points to reserve that inventory. Nothing else. That is owner/members inventory. On day 31 that inventory was reservable by owner/members only using points. I am suggesting that that inventory should remain owner/members inventory on day 30 and owner/members should be able to reserve that inventory at the old/current lower cash rates during Open Season.

The 3 reasons that you give are the possible derivation of additional open season inventory. I am suggesting that if Hilton wants to charge higher rates for owner/members to reserve that inventory it could be justified. Since it is inventory that thru owner/members depositing action or Hilton Management action became available. Hilton is under no obligation to offer that inventory to HGVC owner/members. They could offer that inventory on Hilton Honors for rack rates. Offering it to owner/members at a reduced rate is a benefit.
 

Jason245

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Jason, this is a quote from your recent post:

That is owner/members inventory. On day 31 that inventory was reservable by owner/members only using points. I am suggesting that that inventory should remain owner/members inventory on day 30



I think this is the primary disconnect you and I are having.

my understanding of HGVC is that there is no "owner/member" reserved inventory. It is an exchange system with a giant pile of points. As soon as you enroll and want to use anything other than your deeded week, you are using an exchange with multiple parties owning points (HGVC being the developer of thousands of time intervals, the owner of the exchange, and the one who purchases points from people to provide club perks is the largest individual point owner).

I guess the question that we need to clarify, is do you view HGVC as an owner and participant on the exchange or simply the entity that facilitates exchanges?

If you view them as only a facilitator, then I fully understand your frustration.

The reality is very different, HGVC is not a facilitator, they are a participant, but a participant who ties their own hands by not reserving "hot weeks" and always willing to give up one of their own reservations for a points reservation by another member. By that same token, they attempt to monetize whatever they have left over as best they can by renting rooms out to other members or renting them out to third parties.

Now put yourself in HGVC shoes
If you pay MF of $1,000/year on your week, would you be willing to rent it to a friend for $700?

Should Hilton rent out these room to members at a loss? Breakeven? or a small profit?

HGVC is currently renting out the rooms to members at a loss, and you are frustrated that they are not willing to continue to absorb those loses.

If HGVC raised prices by $1, you would be mad.
If HGVC raised prices to break even, you would be mad.
If HGVC raised price to break even + a small profit, you would be mad.

You are rightfully mad that HGVC is making sound business decisions that determent you to the benefit of the owners of Hilton (who will now lose less money on the open season).

I have a whole list of price items that make me mad. Airlines no longer give food, almost all of them charge to check bags, pretty soon I will have to pump quarters into the john door to take a leak in privacy onboard, and for some reason the guy sitting next to me paid 10-20% less.

My cell phone company now wants me to "finance" a new cell phone instead of giving me a 2 year contract and a discounted phone price.

I used to get more juice in my carton, more cereal in my box, more ice cream in my container, and more toilet paper in a packet, and they kept the prices the same. When they made those decisions, companies used the excuse that expenses had gone up because of gas prices, but now that prices have dropped, I don't see the size of my packages increasing to old levels or the prices of my groceries going down.

There is a reprieve for 3 months in which HGVC will more publically start discussing the changes to the open season program rather than sneaking it in like the less juice in the carton, but in the scheme of things, that is meaningless. I would be much happier if HGVC came up with a transparent way that open season was calculated and instead of annually changing the rates or coming up with confusing ranges, have a solid meathodology that we can all understand and that stays consistent over time (E.G., it rises with CPI, or is the publically available rental rate - X percent)
 

Beefnot

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I think this is the primary disconnect you and I are having.

my understanding of HGVC is that there is no "owner/member" reserved inventory. It is an exchange system with a giant pile of points. As soon as you enroll and want to use anything other than your deeded week, you are using an exchange with multiple parties owning points (HGVC being the developer of thousands of time intervals, the owner of the exchange, and the one who purchases points from people to provide club perks is the largest individual point owner).

Why would HGVC need to own any other points other than points that are still unsold? The total amount of points in the points system must equal the underlying deeded weeks, correct?

If HGVC had theoretically sold all weeks, then the only points they "own" are the points that they "purchased" (read: control) from the owner in return for perks that only cost HGVC a fraction of the points they are controlling in return. HGVC is not paying maintenance fees on those owner points that have been cashed in--the owner is--so the only cost to HGVC for those points is the cost of the perks they provided in return. I liken it to an exchange company but points being the currency rather than an undivided week. II or RCI do not own Or pay maintenance fees on my deposited weeks, and any revenue they make in excess of the cost to provide the value of the services I "paid" for with the deposit of my week (e.g. timeshare exchange, cruise, etc.) is profit. The breakeven would be far lower than the maintenance fees underlying the deposit. So yes, I would look at HGVC as fundamentally the facilitator.

If we add in as-yet unsold HGVC points into the mix for open season, then this is where the maintenance fee cost borne by HGVC might come into play. However, the breakeven cost to HGVC would be the MF cost of unsold weeks plus the cost of the perks provided to owners who deposited points, divided by the total unsold points and club perk points. That breakeven cost would presumably be lower than simply the MFs of unsold inventory. Although in this scenario, it would appear that HGVC is seeking for owners to subsidize all of their unsold inventory, which one might argue is not the owners' problem, I dunno.
 

Tamaradarann

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HGVC is both a Facilitator and an Owner

Jason,

I view HGVC as both a Facilitator and an Owner.

They are a Facilitator in placing weeks in the system at the resorts at the 12 month mark. During the home week reservation period owners at that resort during that season can reserved a unit of the kind they own. At the 9 month mark that inventory is available to all owner/members during the Club Reservation Period. At the 30 day mark any unreserved nights become part of the Open Season Inventory. That is the inventory that I have been stressing should be available to owner/members at the old/current lower Open Season Rates.

They are an Owner of the unsold weeks, and nights that are represented by owner/members depositing points for Hilton Honors or Perks are HGVC's are theirs to control to do with as they see fit. They can rent them out on Hilton Honors or they can let owner/members at whatever rate they fell is appropriate.
 

USDave

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Crucial change to HGVC - We must take action, stand together and be heard

Hi,

Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks.

I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it!

I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton.

I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!

So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system.

CALL TO ACTION Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.
 

Tamaradarann

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Make yourself heard at HGVC

Hi,

Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks.

I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it!

I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton.

I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!

So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system.

CALL TO ACTION Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.


I totally agree with this approach. I have posted a number of the e-mails that I have sent. I got the name of Barbara Rinks, BRinks@hgvc.com the Director of HGVC services. She seems to receptive to the notes that I have sent and passing the notes to upper management, the Vice President of Member Services to whom she reports. I think that we need to get to the bottom of the derivation of the Open Season availability particularly in Honolulu which is a very highly sought after location and the one that I believe they will be raising the Open Season rates the most. The post that HGVC sent out made it sound like the availability was from members depositing points for Partner Perks. That is certainly different than what I was under the assumption the derivation of the Open Season availability, Club Reservation availability that wasn't reserved by owner/members using their points.
Tamaradarann is offline
 

bogey21

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I sold my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago when they started changing things to my detriment. After trading into a number of HGVC resorts I almost bought. Now I'm glad I didn't. Apparently it is not a question whether the chains will change things to the detriment of Owners, rather it is when. They all seem to do it when it suits them.

George
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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Yes, I agree if that was the main purpose of your purchase then this particular change has no immediate impact to you. And there are probably lots of HGVC members who care less about this change since they never used Open Season and never plan to.

But keep in mind that Hilton sold folks on various owner benefits (not on the basic original idea of timeshares). As a result, various owners bought for various reasons. Hilton sold them on the idea that they can travel anywhere/anytime via the HGVC club resorts, Hilton hotels/resorts worldwide, timeshare exchanges, lower open season rates for owners, etc.

As these extra owner benefits continue to get stripped and Annual Maintenance Fees, Reservation Fees, Club Dues, Exchanging fee, etc continue to rise, more and more folks are going see no benefit in owning and abandon their timeshare (basically stop paying their maintenance fee) which will impact the HOA and all owners. NOTE: Keep in mind that timeshares with high maintenance fees are harder to get rid of and HGVC ROFR only exist if there is demand

As you can see by my username, I'm one of those TUG members who owns several different timeshare. Each one in my timeshare portfolio serves a purpose. My primary purpose for buying HGVC was for HHV stays. However I also had several HHonors exchanges when the point requirements were favorable and I also like the open season options for my visits to Hawaii, Orlando and Miami when I need an extra night here and there. With the Open Season Rental Rates increasing and resort maintenance issues increasing, I'm not feeling the love.

There's far less love at Marriott...

1. Marriott has been devaluing the equivalent of HHonors for nearly a decade, year after year. (What would have gotten you a week at the beginning might get you 2 days, today, usually less.)

2. The skim. When Marriott created it's Vacation Club point system, you could enroll your week into the system. Only your contribution had 15-20% of your purchasing power skimmed off. For example, if you convert to points in the Hilton system, you could (theoretically) buy back the same week at the same resort for the amount of points you got. Get 7,000 points - buy at 7000 points. At Marriott, you can only buy back between 5 and 6 days for what you put in, and that was from day 1.

3. With Hilton, if you buy an aftermarket week, you can join the points system, for a modest fee. With Marriott, you can't. The only way to get in is to buy it through Marriott and buy a package of points, to boot. And the joining fee now is $2325. If you buy non-Marriott aftermarket, you're just out of luck...

4. With Marriott's point system, you are required to pay 1/6 of the retail price (currently) as a fee to Marriott, just for the priviledge of transferring the points to a new owner. (Straght progit to Marriott Vacation Club's bottom line profit, for doing nothing. There are separate fees for the actual transfer...)

5. Hilton protects the original owners of a resort, by giving them a early booking period for those owners at that resort only. If I own at Bay Club, for example, I get three months to book when my only competition is from other Bay Club Owners, who have an eligible non-booked week during the exclusive booking period. That gives me a reason to buy there and pay the higher maintenance fees.

With Marriott, there is no exclusive booking period. Their Vacaton Club grabs their weeks at exactly the same time as existing owners, and can (and does!) front run existing owners for prime weeks. Existing owners became second-class citizens under their new rules.

6. FInally, on an apples-to-apples basis, Hilton mantenance fees run around 20% less than Marriott, seem to have done so or quite a while.

Now I will say that probably Marriott's mantenance is better, but I haven't bounced around enough to be certain. And I can't speak about the other competitors.

I understand the anger about losing cherished cheap perks. But it could be a lot worse...

(As you may gather, I will be exiting the Marriott system later next year....)
 

USDave

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Don't lose focus

Things could always be worse! That is exactly how corporation's get away with unfair changes. That is how life is....things could always be worse so that is why context is always crucial

Marriot may well choose to exploit customers in a greater manner than Hilton but that doesn't mean it is ok for either. Hilton has often shown itself to be a decent company that values customer opinion.

So we shouldn't "thank our lucky stars" that Marriot has changed the benefits even more but should halt Hilton trying to make a fundamental change to the system.

Don't lose focus make sure we let Hilton know we are not happy with the change. Facebook, Twitter and input@hgvc.com
 

alwysonvac

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I sold my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago when they started changing things to my detriment. After trading into a number of HGVC resorts I almost bought. Now I'm glad I didn't. Apparently it is not a question whether the chains will change things to the detriment of Owners, rather it is when. They all seem to do it when it suits them.

George

Yeah, that's how I'm feeling these days.

My hubby laughs as I walk around the house singing Ken Rogers' line from the "The Gambler"
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run
 

alwysonvac

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There's far less love at Marriott...

1. Marriott has been devaluing the equivalent of HHonors for nearly a decade, year after year. (What would have gotten you a week at the beginning might get you 2 days, today, usually less.)

2. The skim. When Marriott created it's Vacation Club point system, you could enroll your week into the system. Only your contribution had 15-20% of your purchasing power skimmed off. For example, if you convert to points in the Hilton system, you could (theoretically) buy back the same week at the same resort for the amount of points you got. Get 7,000 points - buy at 7000 points. At Marriott, you can only buy back between 5 and 6 days for what you put in, and that was from day 1.

3. With Hilton, if you buy an aftermarket week, you can join the points system, for a modest fee. With Marriott, you can't. The only way to get in is to buy it through Marriott and buy a package of points, to boot. And the joining fee now is $2325. If you buy non-Marriott aftermarket, you're just out of luck...

4. With Marriott's point system, you are required to pay 1/6 of the retail price (currently) as a fee to Marriott, just for the priviledge of transferring the points to a new owner. (Straght progit to Marriott Vacation Club's bottom line profit, for doing nothing. There are separate fees for the actual transfer...)

5. Hilton protects the original owners of a resort, by giving them a early booking period for those owners at that resort only. If I own at Bay Club, for example, I get three months to book when my only competition is from other Bay Club Owners, who have an eligible non-booked week during the exclusive booking period. That gives me a reason to buy there and pay the higher maintenance fees.

With Marriott, there is no exclusive booking period. Their Vacaton Club grabs their weeks at exactly the same time as existing owners, and can (and does!) front run existing owners for prime weeks. Existing owners became second-class citizens under their new rules.

6. FInally, on an apples-to-apples basis, Hilton maintenance fees run around 20% less than Marriott, seem to have done so or quite a while.

Now I will say that probably Marriott's mantenance is better, but I haven't bounced around enough to be certain. And I can't speak about the other competitors.

I understand the anger about losing cherished cheap perks. But it could be a lot worse...

(As you may gather, I will be exiting the Marriott system later next year....)

Yes, there are reasons why you don't see Marriott on the list of timeshares that I own even before they started their points program ;)
But just keep in mind each system has their PROs and CONs and it's not all rosy over in the Hilton camp.
 

Tamaradarann

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I Agree LETS STAY FOCUSED

There's far less love at Marriott...

1. Marriott has been devaluing the equivalent of HHonors for nearly a decade, year after year. (What would have gotten you a week at the beginning might get you 2 days, today, usually less.)

2. The skim. When Marriott created it's Vacation Club point system, you could enroll your week into the system. Only your contribution had 15-20% of your purchasing power skimmed off. For example, if you convert to points in the Hilton system, you could (theoretically) buy back the same week at the same resort for the amount of points you got. Get 7,000 points - buy at 7000 points. At Marriott, you can only buy back between 5 and 6 days for what you put in, and that was from day 1.

3. With Hilton, if you buy an aftermarket week, you can join the points system, for a modest fee. With Marriott, you can't. The only way to get in is to buy it through Marriott and buy a package of points, to boot. And the joining fee now is $2325. If you buy non-Marriott aftermarket, you're just out of luck...

4. With Marriott's point system, you are required to pay 1/6 of the retail price (currently) as a fee to Marriott, just for the priviledge of transferring the points to a new owner. (Straght progit to Marriott Vacation Club's bottom line profit, for doing nothing. There are separate fees for the actual transfer...)

5. Hilton protects the original owners of a resort, by giving them a early booking period for those owners at that resort only. If I own at Bay Club, for example, I get three months to book when my only competition is from other Bay Club Owners, who have an eligible non-booked week during the exclusive booking period. That gives me a reason to buy there and pay the higher maintenance fees.

With Marriott, there is no exclusive booking period. Their Vacaton Club grabs their weeks at exactly the same time as existing owners, and can (and does!) front run existing owners for prime weeks. Existing owners became second-class citizens under their new rules.

6. FInally, on an apples-to-apples basis, Hilton mantenance fees run around 20% less than Marriott, seem to have done so or quite a while.

Now I will say that probably Marriott's mantenance is better, but I haven't bounced around enough to be certain. And I can't speak about the other competitors.

I understand the anger about losing cherished cheap perks. But it could be a lot worse...

(As you may gather, I will be exiting the Marriott system later next year....)

I started this thread and want to keep the issue the Open Season Rates at HGVC and the FOCUS on that discussion. What other companies do is there business and their owners business. This Discussion Group is for HGVC and the issue thread is HGVC raising the Open Season Rates. HGVC has reduced our benefits and we need to complain and request that they modify their initial plan to be more owner/member friendly.
 
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