Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[scrapngen]

No, I did not pay $200K-$300K for my 6 units. Some are EOY units and pre construction from 1997 when I paid less than $18,000 for my first (Kauai Beach Club OF). I paid between $3,000 and $21,000 for my units. The $3,000 is a Marriott resale at Vail. The avg is $14,000. My total is less than $100k. My M/F are around $5,600 a year. I can travel wherever and whenever I want. I look at it as though I bought a second home everywhere without the hassles of responsibilities. Where can I have a second home for under $100K and less than $6K annual upkeep.

The point system opens lots of options that you can enjoy if you only open your mind to it. See the packages I referenced. Even with only 3,000 pts, you can enjoy multiple resorts in HI, CA, CO ski instead of just going to your same home resort.

Hi Brenda,

Congratulations that this point system will work well for you!

As I've said quite some time ago in this thread, the people who benefit are those who become Premier Plus members (6 weeks puts you there - pretty much) and those who spened a lot on fees (once again, more likely those who own multiple weeks) Take a look at who is converting and who likes the new system, and they are almost invariably a person who will become Premier Plus!! The few exceptions are those who pay fees a lot, and those who are scared they'll be left behind if they don't convert. Oh, and some resale owners who can now get reward points or other developer rewards.

So you, Brenda, Sue and some others here are jazzed on the system - quite rightfully! You get to book as little as 1 night here and there at 13 months out, and have a lot of points to play around with the system even more. It's a great system for you, and if they skim a little, it's a fair trade for the remarkable power you now have. No sarcasm here - I do mean this.

But forgive me when I and many others here who will NOT be Premier Plus do not share the same enthusiasm. Those who only own one week - no matter how valuable, just lost a lot, as they will now have to wait while first the Premier Plus points owners go after their resort, then Premier who will book 7 or more nights wherever they wish as well as the Multiple week owner who hasn't converted and owns at this resort also booking 7 or more nights. Those who make Premier don't gain much more than they already had and that skim factor still hurts them more than the flex advantages gained in many cases.

FINALLY they will be able to book the week they want - yeah, right, good luck with that availability of those desired weeks

OK, so instead they convert to points. But they used to be able to trade that one week for equal resorts elsewhere. Now not so much. Their allocated points don't equal the value of what they own, so they have to borrow - (which means they lose out the next year) they may not be able to use all their points because they don't match up so they lose 50 at the end of the year, etc. etc. PLus they've lost their vote to try and change things.

I believe many of the people who are against the new system, or see problems with it are smart TUGGERS who HAVE "opened their mind to it" and played around with different options, but don't like the results. I certainly don't like having a fixed plat plus week HI valued the same as a plat float week at my same resort. NOt only that, it is a low value compared to the amount it takes for most of the weeks in that plat. season. And it is significantly lower than the value of the actual fixed week!!! One of the things I'd like to do is simply change the start/end date of my week. Once I convert to points, I automatically deposit that fixed week into the system and it goes to someone with a reserve. Then IF the week flexed is available, it takes more points to change those start end days than I have, because my value is not accurate. Other places I should be able to trade to are not open to me with the point value I have, without losing days. I don't wish to travel to most East Coast destinations much, as I can't drive there.

But I won't criticize you for your decision. I just wish those of you who are sitting pretty wouldn't look at everyone else as "not being open to change, or are too concerned about the skimming, or who don't understand how great point systems are and that you just have to learn how to look at it differently." I think plenty of people not happy with this system are very familiar with points systems and love them. It's just that I certainly do not intend to buy empty points from Marriott to get to the level that could make the system favorable and flexible!! and there is no other way to get there at the current time. I am someone who would consider owning more weeks, but the salespeople have nothing to offer me now, IMO.

 

[cruisin]

Frito Lay doesn't sell you a 6 ounce bag and when you actually want to eat them require you to give 2 ounces of the chips to Frito Lay so they can make additional profit on what they already sold you. They don't say the bag is 6 ounces of chips, but skim 2 ounces at the factory only giving you 4 ounces you can actually eat in order to cover Frito Lay expenses and make profit. If they did that it would be a good analogy. Marriott is skimming product you have paid for and hiding exchange costs and other fees using their new points. Frito lay gives you all 6 ounces you purchased, Marriott gives you less points than you purchased.

Hey you love it, convert. I think it is a rip off, i won't convert, and I will explain skimming, loss of vote, hidden fees, and other problems with the program. You explain the good things. Then everyone on TUG will have the chance to listen to those who like the points program, and those who don't, and decide whether they want to convert or not using real facts rather than Marriott's sales facts.

Its good for some people, bad for the club. It does not make sense for me, if it did, I would join, but it is bad for the club, skimming is a bad omen and clearly states their MO, Why would they need our voting rights, its our week, we just turn it into points, all signs that the club in general is in trouble. When the direction of Marriott is bad, it can't lead to good things for the club.

I really hope they develope a couple new properties, it would also show the direction of the club. They built the last few very beautiful because they had to sell deeds to them. They have enough beautiful resorts, now they just need to create points.

 

[Brenda]

Hi Brenda,

Congratulations that this point system will work well for you!

As I've said quite some time ago in this thread, the people who benefit are those who become Premier Plus members (6 weeks puts you there - pretty much) and those who spened a lot on fees (once again, more likely those who own multiple weeks) Take a look at who is converting and who likes the new system, and they are almost invariably a person who will become Premier Plus!! The few exceptions are those who pay fees a lot, and those who are scared they'll be left behind if they don't convert. Oh, and some resale owners who can now get reward points or other developer rewards.

So you, Brenda, Sue and some others here are jazzed on the system - quite rightfully! You get to book as little as 1 night here and there at 13 months out, and have a lot of points to play around with the system even more. It's a great system for you, and if they skim a little, it's a fair trade for the remarkable power you now have. No sarcasm here - I do mean this.

But forgive me when I and many others here who will NOT be Premier Plus do not share the same enthusiasm. Those who only own one week - no matter how valuable, just lost a lot, as they will now have to wait while first the Premier Plus points owners go after their resort, then Premier who will book 7 or more nights wherever they wish as well as the Multiple week owner who hasn't converted and owns at this resort also booking 7 or more nights. Those who make Premier don't gain much more than they already had and that skim factor still hurts them more than the flex advantages gained in many cases.

FINALLY they will be able to book the week they want - yeah, right, good luck with that availability of those desired weeks

OK, so instead they convert to points. But they used to be able to trade that one week for equal resorts elsewhere. Now not so much. Their allocated points don't equal the value of what they own, so they have to borrow - (which means they lose out the next year) they may not be able to use all their points because they don't match up so they lose 50 at the end of the year, etc. etc. PLus they've lost their vote to try and change things.

I believe many of the people who are against the new system, or see problems with it are smart TUGGERS who HAVE "opened their mind to it" and played around with different options, but don't like the results. I certainly don't like having a fixed plat plus week HI valued the same as a plat float week at my same resort. NOt only that, it is a low value compared to the amount it takes for most of the weeks in that plat. season. And it is significantly lower than the value of the actual fixed week!!! One of the things I'd like to do is simply change the start/end date of my week. Once I convert to points, I automatically deposit that fixed week into the system and it goes to someone with a reserve. Then IF the week flexed is available, it takes more points to change those start end days than I have, because my value is not accurate. Other places I should be able to trade to are not open to me with the point value I have, without losing days. I don't wish to travel to most East Coast destinations much, as I can't drive there.

But I won't criticize you for your decision. I just wish those of you who are sitting pretty wouldn't look at everyone else as "not being open to change, or are too concerned about the skimming, or who don't understand how great point systems are and that you just have to learn how to look at it differently." I think plenty of people not happy with this system are very familiar with points systems and love them. It's just that I certainly do not intend to buy empty points from Marriott to get to the level that could make the system favorable and flexible!! and there is no other way to get there at the current time. I am someone who would consider owning more weeks, but the salespeople have nothing to offer me now, IMO.

========================================================
This is beautifully stated. I do understand that owning only one or two weeks, the point system may not be advantageous. I too, would question whether I would be happy if I owned fewer weeks, where losing points is crucial or owning resale, where I would have to pay close to $2000 to enroll. I also own at Hilton and Starwood, where what you own in points is what you get when you convert. However, Marriott has so many more resorts to choose from. It is a change, a BIG change. I look at trading to resorts that you don't own, with so many choices, as costing a price. That price is less points to use. The price used to be $109. Now it is less points. I understand that maybe you prefer to pay the $109 and have the same trades. If I owned 1 or 2 units, I would still enroll and would consider going 6 days, instead of 7 and not be in the hole price-wise the following year. I would take more 5 day weekday vacations to make up. I would not buy more points. Yes, you are used to vacationing 7 days on a trade prior to the new system. I used to trade the studio portion of a lock-off for a 1 Bed most of the time. But I prefer to have a confirmed reservation right up front than playing the hoping and waiting game of II. We all have different priorities. I do understand your position.

I only referred to "opening your mind" because there were overwhelming discussions on how much is lost with the new system. I wanted Tuggers to see that there are some other advantages also. For example, the packages I posted, where you can vacation to different resorts as a sampler for under 3,000 points. We were never able to do that prior with a one week ownership.
There may be some folks who would like to try that. But with so much negative, they would never look at the other choices. There may be some folk who just want to go to their owned resort and trade equal sometimes. I get it.

I don't know if you've noticed that it is more difficult getting trades through II than years ago. I travel mostly to Hawaii. There is significantly less availability this year; a year when travel is supposed to down due to a weak economy. My friend tells me there is less availability at HHI top resorts summer also. I have been waiting for a 1 Bed KMO trade for over 4 months and I am looking for Sept, a slow season. I used to get my trades almost immediately. Only studios have been available. It just maybe, that II is drying up trade wise anyway and we desperately need another way to trade. Even Hilton Hawaiian village is difficult to get outside of your owned availability this year. The world is changing. Marriott is giving us another option. It may not be perfect but it is another option. It could be that what you are losing (availability in II), may already be dwindling and going down that road will turn out to be a dead end, even without Marriott stealing from the pot and premium folks taking all the trades.

There will probably be a market to buy/sell one time use points to add to your inventory when you need it. It is better than purchasing points with associated added M/F. Worldmark owners have been doing that for years. There will also probably be more owner to owner trades.

I also realize that Marriott is having a hard time the last few years with low timeshare sales. The Ritz Carlton brand did not pan out, as expected. New construction has been put on hold. In order to survive, they had to come up with a way to increase sales. Point system is the plan, where you don't have to sell a unit only sell currency. If Marriott was to fail in the timeshare arena, we would suffer even greater than the loss of point values and lack of availability for trades. Your home resort may be sold out of the Marriott system and into something much worse.

The only thing certain in this world is change. Sometimes, we just have to find what is good with the change and move on. Other alternatives will open when there is a need. Necessity is the mother of invention. Anyway, I do wish the best vacationing for all. Let's vacation wherever and have a great time with our loved ones. That's what vacationing is about - FUN.

 

[DanCali]

Just a little reminder that us (the "little people" with less than 13K allocated points) cannot book 5 or 6 days until 10 months in advance. By definition, that would not work for most high demnd weeks...

 

[csalter2]

I just don't get it

Hi Brenda,

Congratulations that this point system will work well for you!

As I've said quite some time ago in this thread, the people who benefit are those who become Premier Plus members (6 weeks puts you there - pretty much) and those who spened a lot on fees (once again, more likely those who own multiple weeks) Take a look at who is converting and who likes the new system, and they are almost invariably a person who will become Premier Plus!! The few exceptions are those who pay fees a lot, and those who are scared they'll be left behind if they don't convert. Oh, and some resale owners who can now get reward points or other developer rewards.

So you, Brenda, Sue and some others here are jazzed on the system - quite rightfully! You get to book as little as 1 night here and there at 13 months out, and have a lot of points to play around with the system even more. It's a great system for you, and if they skim a little, it's a fair trade for the remarkable power you now have. No sarcasm here - I do mean this.

But forgive me when I and many others here who will NOT be Premier Plus do not share the same enthusiasm. Those who only own one week - no matter how valuable, just lost a lot, as they will now have to wait while first the Premier Plus points owners go after their resort, then Premier who will book 7 or more nights wherever they wish as well as the Multiple week owner who hasn't converted and owns at this resort also booking 7 or more nights. Those who make Premier don't gain much more than they already had and that skim factor still hurts them more than the flex advantages gained in many cases.

FINALLY they will be able to book the week they want - yeah, right, good luck with that availability of those desired weeks

OK, so instead they convert to points. But they used to be able to trade that one week for equal resorts elsewhere. Now not so much. Their allocated points don't equal the value of what they own, so they have to borrow - (which means they lose out the next year) they may not be able to use all their points because they don't match up so they lose 50 at the end of the year, etc. etc. PLus they've lost their vote to try and change things.

I believe many of the people who are against the new system, or see problems with it are smart TUGGERS who HAVE "opened their mind to it" and played around with different options, but don't like the results. I certainly don't like having a fixed plat plus week HI valued the same as a plat float week at my same resort. NOt only that, it is a low value compared to the amount it takes for most of the weeks in that plat. season. And it is significantly lower than the value of the actual fixed week!!! One of the things I'd like to do is simply change the start/end date of my week. Once I convert to points, I automatically deposit that fixed week into the system and it goes to someone with a reserve. Then IF the week flexed is available, it takes more points to change those start end days than I have, because my value is not accurate. Other places I should be able to trade to are not open to me with the point value I have, without losing days. I don't wish to travel to most East Coast destinations much, as I can't drive there.

But I won't criticize you for your decision. I just wish those of you who are sitting pretty wouldn't look at everyone else as "not being open to change, or are too concerned about the skimming, or who don't understand how great point systems are and that you just have to learn how to look at it differently." I think plenty of people not happy with this system are very familiar with points systems and love them. It's just that I certainly do not intend to buy empty points from Marriott to get to the level that could make the system favorable and flexible!! and there is no other way to get there at the current time. I am someone who would consider owning more weeks, but the salespeople have nothing to offer me now, IMO.

I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort. You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.

For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10 or 12 months out.

 

[edge4414]

I am not sure relating BP and the fiasco in the Gulf is even remotely similar to the new program Marriott has rolled out (or anything Marriott has done in the distant past). Without getting into a discussion of all the facts surrounding BP, suffice it to say their deplorable record speaks for itself. Marriott has rolled out a new program, you are NOT forced to join the last time I checked (and no wildlife has been harmed). It seems to me like some people are happy about the new program, why not just let them make their decision and be happy. If your neighbor buys a new car, do you walk over and tell him what an awful car it is, how bad the design is, ugly the color is, what a bad deal he got, etc. or do you just admire the car and privately chastise him?

wsrobinson
WOW! Where do I compare the points system to the problems in the Gulf. It was strictly a legal point not a moral comparison. Please read again.
As far as letting things just go because some are happy aren't you doing the same on the other side of the coin. I believe my rights as a voting owner are being swamped. I expected and believe contractually promised, to be voting with other individual owners with similar vacation interests and no one with a monopoly and probably no individual with even 1% of the vote now I am faced with voting against a large conglomerate with probably 50% of the votes. How is that right. What is it that is so hard to understand!!!!!! I think I can legitimately feel that every person who signs up for this program is affecting my rights. I don't feel animosity to anyone that does that but definitely feel that toward Marriott. Explain to me the purpose of Marriott taking away your vote to your home resort. You still will pay MF won't you but have no say in them. What is their purpose? I think you know it is to take away the control the owners had however small. I have seen disputes growing in Aruba between owners and Marriott and now they wipe out the dissenting vote. Also problems at Ocean Pointe concerning remodeling costs. I'm not sure the Ocean Pointe situation applies completely but going forward the board would have no say in what Marriott would do and couldn't stop the renovations as they have now because they were not what most owners wanted. These are concerns that IMO are more important than even the unconscionable skimming issue,

 

[steveg11]

I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort. You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.

For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10 or 12 months out.

Finally somebody who actually looked at the facts instead of blindly insisting that Marriott was taking away their home resort or "skimming" their points. Speaking of looking at facts, I notice that some are quoting documents here. I wonder if they bothered to look at the documents they got when they purchased their week. I think those documents clearly state that they are guaranteed a week in the season that they own, the size that they own, the view that they own, at their home resort. But somehow based on rumors and speculation, that right has been taken away?
It is good to see a few rational people posting here.

 

[steveg11]

I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort. You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.

For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10 or 12 months out.

Finally somebody who actually looked at the facts instead of blindly insisting that Marriott was taking away their home resort or "skimming" their points. Speaking of looking at facts, I notice that some are quoting documents here. I wonder if they bothered to look at the documents they got when they purchased their week. I think those documents clearly state that they are guaranteed a week in the season that they own, the size that they own, the view that they own, at their home resort. But somehow based on rumors and speculation, that right has been taken away?
It is good to see a few rational people posting here. Like you, I own a 2 BR and I don't need a 2 BR. Before I could pay a fee and lock it off. Now I can not pay a lockoff fee or an exchange fee and turn my week into as many as 60 nights in a studio if I want to. But oh, wait a minute. How is that possible? Let's see, 3275 points for my Grand Chateau? Yep. Nights in the system at resorts I would like to use for as few as 50 points? Check. So that would be, let's see. 65 nights if i want to use it that way? Or 30 if I want to use it a different way? Or 14 if I want to use it a different way? Or 6 if I want to use it a different way? Or 3 if I want to use it a different way? Hmmm. Sounds pretty flexible.

 

[wuv pooh]

Well said!
Keep in mind that Fletch said he and I believe 4 other top salespeople jumped ship because they knew some of the details of what was coming....

I would not read much into this. I don't know their motives, but consider the new situation.

Fletch is very smart and a Tugger. An honest Marriott salesman with knowledge could easily crush the sales if he was good. Under the old system you sold people $20k developer lock offs and even though you couldn't 'guarantee' upgrades you knew how to get them 8 out of 10 times and you told the customer how to do it. Those people became references. If someone didn't believe your pitch you could give them 10 people to call to verify. Those references got friendshare points and the circle of life was complete. Satisfied customers also brought their home equity for more purchases when they saw how well it worked. The more satisfied customers the bigger the circle, but never big enough to end the game because most owners are ignorant and their salesman don't have any vision. If someone wanted to buy Hawaii, you sold them 2 or 3 lockoffs for the same money and you got more commission and they still got to go to Hawaii.

Now that game is over. It is easy to see the points values and obvious that you will not trade your 1bd lockoff side to Hawaii because you do not have enough points. The salesman who now have the advantage are the high pressure guys and there is no advantage vs. 'dumb' salesmen. There are probably still some tricks, but a lot more effort for less payoff than before.

It was really shooting ducks in a barrel for the guys that figured it out. In retrospect it is easy to see, but Fletch and those guys were smart enough to do it and made a ton of money. Great for them but not so great going forward.

 

[tombo]

I would not read much into this. I don't know their motives, but consider the new situation.

Fletch is very smart and a Tugger. An honest Marriott salesman with knowledge could easily crush the sales if he was good. Under the old system you sold people $20k developer lock offs and even though you couldn't 'guarantee' upgrades you knew how to get them 8 out of 10 times and you told the customer how to do it. Those people became references. If someone didn't believe your pitch you could give them 10 people to call to verify. Those references got friendshare points and the circle of life was complete. Satisfied customers also brought their home equity for more purchases when they saw how well it worked. The more satisfied customers the bigger the circle, but never big enough to end the game because most owners are ignorant and their salesman don't have any vision. If someone wanted to buy Hawaii, you sold them 2 or 3 lockoffs for the same money and you got more commission and they still got to go to Hawaii.

Now that game is over. It is easy to see the points values and obvious that you will not trade your 1bd lockoff side to Hawaii because you do not have enough points. The salesman who now have the advantage are the high pressure guys and there is no advantage vs. 'dumb' salesmen. There are probably still some tricks, but a lot more effort for less payoff than before.

It was really shooting ducks in a barrel for the guys that figured it out. In retrospect it is easy to see, but Fletch and those guys were smart enough to do it and made a ton of money. Great for them but not so great going forward.

Fletch and others might have left because they didn't like what Marriott was doing to former customers who bought weeks from them. They might have quit because they felt it was wrong or because some with a conscience couldn't tell the majority of current owners what a great deal converting to points would be for them, but they didn't leave because they didn't think they could make money selling points to uneducated customers off of the street.

The sales people have more wiggle room and can make more promises that they will never be able to deliver than they ever could selling weeks. Sales people are salivating over their income potential with the new points program. The new sales pitches and promises of flexibility are endless with points! If someone buys 4000 points they will be shown every week in a one bed room or studio at every prime week at the best locations and assured they can easily get it. They will show lots of great 2 bed and 3 bed locations which require 4000 points or less and be told that those are theirs too. They will be shown that they can split points and stay 3 weeks off season, 14 weekend, 25 single nights, they will be promised anything and everything 4000 points can possibly buy whether they can ever actually get those things or not. They will be told to bank their 4000 points this year and use their 8000 points next year to get 4th of july in HHI and Christmas in Park city. Any time they want to stay for a long weekend or a night or two, points will get that for them. Points will get them cruises, safaris, car rental, air fare, everything but groceries. Plus they will be assured that they can exchange points for every location in the II book easily because marriott points have more value than anything else II has.The ability to promise the moon with points is more varied than they could ever promise with weeks.

The fact that availability for prime weeks will be very limited and long weekends at the beach in the summer will be non-existent is not important, only that if they buy points they have the ABILITY to reserve those and many other things. The fact that the ability is based on availability will be passed over or they will be assured that availability will not be a problem. The difference between what the salesman can promise and what the buyer can actually do in points will be a much bigger flop than the weeks lies ever were. As these new points buyers start trying to book Thurs through Sun for summer beach weeks but can never get any avaialbility using their new shiny points, then they will realize they were sold a theory with a very different reality.

 

[wuv pooh]

The fact that availability for prime weeks will be very limited and long weekend at the beach in the summer will be non-existent is not important, only that if they buy points they have the ABILITY to reserve those and many other things. The fact that the ability is based on availability will be passed over or they will be assured that availability will not be a problem. The difference between what the salesman can promise and what the buyer can actually do in points will be a much bigger flop than the weeks lies ever were. As these new points buyers start trying to book Thurs through Sun for summer beach weeks but can never get any avaialbility using their new shiny points, then they will realize they were sold a theory with a very different reality.

That is a HUGE assumption that you really have zero clue about because we can't conceptualize how big the program is and how it will work. Just think of the current system. We only see the fringes; weeks online, getaways, Marriott rentals, but have no insight into how many pending requests are filled and how many people get what they want vs. trade down or trade up. I would bet that there are a whole lot more weeks and days in the system than we think. We will begin to find out in July for real. The new system of charging people for the actual relative value of each week will change the demand and peoples behavior in ways we do not know. Exchange Socialism by rationing and luck is going away and Exchange Capitalism by who is willing to pay the most is coming. The test will be when I try to make my first 5 night reservation on HHI the first week of September. It may be that nothing is available or it may be that I have 3 choices. I am sure that someone will start a thread on posting your points and weeks trades.

 

[tombo]

That is a HUGE assumption that you really have zero clue about because we can't conceptualize how big the program is and how it will work. Just think of the current system. We only see the fringes; weeks online, getaways, Marriott rentals, but have no insight into how many pending requests are filled and how many people get what they want vs. trade down or trade up. I would bet that there are a whole lot more weeks and days in the system than we think. We will begin to find out in July for real. The new system of charging people for the actual relative value of each week will change the demand and peoples behavior in ways we do not know. Exchange Socialism by rationing and luck is going away and Exchange Capitalism by who is willing to pay the most is coming. The test will be when I try to make my first 5 night reservation on HHI the first week of September. It may be that nothing is available or it may be that I have 3 choices. I am sure that someone will start a thread on posting your points and weeks trades.

I do not know the current number of requests made and filled. I do know that Marriott hasn't built a single new resort or a single new room to fill with all the new points owners they are going to sell. They will not sell points promising October in ski resorts, they will sell them promising summer beach weeks and winter ski weeks. The people who owned shoulder season weeks at marginal resorts couldn't compete for prime weeks in the past, and those prime weeks were very hard to come by. Now you let Marriott sell 2 shoulder weeks as 6500 points and they compete with most any week anywhere. 3 shoulder weeks sold as a 7500 point package will give them access to any prime week, yet the inventory their points were based on were not prime weeks, but instead weeks no one with 2500 points will want to reserve. Marriott can combine 4 or 5 of their absolutelly worst weeks they have in their inventory and sell them as 14,000 points giving the buyer access to inventory at 13 months. There will be more people buying access to prime weeks/resorts every day but Marriott will not add a single prime week to the inventory pool unless they build new resorts (and all of those plans have been cancelled).

The prime weeks/resorts have not increased by one single studio with the advent of points, but the number of people who will have the ability using weeks and points to reserve the limited prime weeks based on AVAILABILITY will increase exponentially as Marriott sells more and more points. As weeks get harder and harder to get, Marriott will charge more and more points to reserve them (read the rules points can be changed based on demand or any other reason). They will not increase the points the person gets when they deposit their prime week, just the points needed to stay in it. Think rewards points. Everyone originally got enough rewards points to reserve the week they own. Now their reward points haven't increased at all but it takes 2 times as many points to reserve your week as what Marriott gives you annually. The best prediction of one's future actions is one's past actions!

That is the future for points! Your skim will become bigger, the number of people competing for prime weeks will be ever increasing, and the only solution will be to buy more points so you will have enough points to retain access to non home resort prime inventory.Sales people will be calling routinelly with good news bad news. Unfortiunatelly due to high demand we have invreased the amount of points needed to stay at the resorts you have historically traded for, but the good news is that we have a special on points right now and you can buy enough to continue to vacation at your favorite resorts for x$'s. Marriott has the fix in, and they will increase the points needed to reserve great weeks anytime their sales slow down. Keep your wallet open because converting to points is only the down payment, you have many more upgrade payments due in the future to buy more points or else you will gradually lose all access to prime weeks not at your home resort. Marriott says pay me now, and pay me later, and later and later...........

 

[MOXJO7282]

The sales people have more wiggle room and can make more promises that they will never be able to deliver than they ever could selling weeks. Sales people are salivating over their income potential with the new points program. The new sales pitches and promises of flexibility are endless with points! If someone buys 4000 points they will be shown every week in a one bed room or studio at every prime week at the best locations and assured they can easily get it. They will show lots of great 2 bed and 3 bed locations which require 4000 points or less and be told that those are theirs too. They will be shown that they can split points and stay 3 weeks off season, 14 weekend, 25 single nights, they will be promised anything and everything 4000 points can possibly buy whether they can ever actually get those things or not. They will be told to bank their 4000 points this year and use their 8000 points next year to get 4th of july in HHI and Christmas in Park city. Any time they want to stay for a long weekend or a night or two, points will get that for them. Points will get them cruises, safaris, car rental, air fare, everything but groceries. Plus they will be assured that they can exchange points for every location in the II book easily because marriott points have more value than anything else II has.The ability to promise the moon with points is more varied than they could ever promise with weeks.

The fact that availability for prime weeks will be very limited and long weekends at the beach in the summer will be non-existent is not important, only that if they buy points they have the ABILITY to reserve those and many other things. The fact that the ability is based on availability will be passed over or they will be assured that availability will not be a problem. The difference between what the salesman can promise and what the buyer can actually do in points will be a much bigger flop than the weeks lies ever were. As these new points buyers start trying to book Thurs through Sun for summer beach weeks but can never get any avaialbility using their new shiny points, then they will realize they were sold a theory with a very different reality.

I don't agree with this statement. For me I think it was much easier to sell the dream than it is now with the points program. In the past all they had to say is "buy low, trade high" no extra money needed to get to Maui, "just exchange in". Now the salesmen have to say either buy this huge package to get to Maui or buy lower point package and either borrow from next year and then no trip then or buy more points. Even uneducated consumers know to ask how much extra will it be to get there? It will no longer be a "free chance" to get to Maui, you will have to pay for it.

 

[tombo]

I don't agree with this statement. For me I think it was much easier to sell the dream than it is now with the points program. In the past all they had to say is "buy low, trade high" no extra money needed to get to Maui, "just exchange in". Now the salesmen have to say either buy this huge package to get to Maui or buy lower point package and either borrow from next year and then no trip then or buy more points. Even uneducated consumers know to ask how much extra will it be to get there? It will no longer be a "free chance" to get to Maui, you will have to pay for it.

Now they will sell buy a low points package and exchange every other year for prime inventory you didn't buy enough points to afford. Every other year they will be competing for a prime week with you even though their points are based on a February beach week that neither you or they want to waste points reserving. Every other year they have access to prime inventory and what they put into the pool to have access to prime weeks is 2 shoulder weeks no one wants. You think there were losers trading in II, wait until a lot of people buy a lot of points, then you are going to see a lot of losers. Well you will see a lot of losers until they increase points requirements, then only those who buy more points will compete for prime non home inventory and everyone else will be a loser. New buyers purchasing small points packages will be assured that if they decide that they want prime weeks every year that they can always buy more points in the future..........

 

[caterina25]

Why Why Why are so many people absolutely fixated on the fact that they are not receiving enough VC points from Marriott to trade to other "like" resorts or in some cases even back into their home resort??? I truly do not understand. You don't have to use VC points to trade to other resorts or to book your own resort. You simply book your resort on line for the week you want or book a week, deposit to II and request a trade. Marriott has not taken anything away from you. You still have all the same capability that you had before. You don't have to enroll in the Vacation point program if you don't want to. Personally I think Marriott has treated its current owners very fairly. We still have the ability to resell a deeded or right to use week in a certain resort for a certain season. I do prefer that option to "you just buy points". I think that having the right to sell a deeded week or right to use week with rights to use your home week, trade through II, trade for MR points and then have the new Vacation Club point option is a pretty darn good deal. That point differential between what owners are getting for their weeks vs what they might have to use in points to go elsewhere in the vacation points system obviously has a lot of people's tighty whites in a bunch but you don't have to use the system unless you want to. Sorry all you Marriott haters out there but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

For me, it's not the skimming of points from my property,but the use of lower range points to reserve a unit of similar value in this new system.When I purchased my TS ,I paid more for platinium,I paid more for oceanside because timeframe and view were important to me and still is.So now I might be able to trade for all that I could trade for before points but with a compromise for timeframe or view.I like some of the features of the point system and it might protect my deeded week in future but I refuse to purchase more points to maintain a status quo.

 

[DanCali]

I have to disagree with you on two points (no pun intended) First, I only have one week at Ko Olina. It is worth 4025 points if I convert and use points. I used to have kids and needed a two bedroom now that it's just my wife and I, I only need a one bedroom or a studio. I save on lockoff fees along with the II exchange fee. In addition, I can travel off peak seasons and get multiple weeks. We don't lose anyhing if we decide to stay at our own resort. I just don't understand why people seem to think they don'e have enough points to stay in their own resort. That is false. You don't have to have additional points to stay in your own resort. You get to keep all of your previous benefits folks. You can still use II if you want. You can still rent out your unit. All that is different is the ability to convert to points and you don't have to do that if you do not want to it. In addition, if I travel with my platinum points to stay at resorts in other seasons, I can do this and save points. I can have more than one vacation with my 4025 weeks.

For the record, the end of the world as we knew is not coming. In the DRI system I use points. I have stayed a couple of weeks in a couple of units. I have never had problems staying anywhere in their system if I made reservations 10 or 12 months out.

Can you get a summer Maui, Kauiai, or even a summer NCV with your 2BR Platinum Koolina? (I believe the answer is no)

That's the point he was making... The vast majority woul agree that a 2BR Platinum Hawaii is like for like with either of those...

 

[Slakk]

I recall some people didn't like the fact that owners reserved high-demand weeks weeks at their home resorts to deposit in II. My argument was that at least you can still get those weeks...

How do you think you will fare when it comes to availability now that any Orlando or Branson owner with enough points can reserve a week at your home resort and rent it out? Once those weeks are reserved, they ar not coming back unless you pay cash...

For me it is simple. I bought my Marriot to use at other Marriott resorts and now with points I will be using II and going outside of MVC to go places.

My Aruba Week will not get me anywhere in MVC other than FC in my season in a 2BR that I have any interesting in going to. We wanted to hit Hawaii and unless I am thrilled with trading a 2BR OS for a Studio I can probably do very well trading my week in II for a non-MVC property. So if the plan is to force current owners of good traders OUT of MVC then it is working great!

 

[detjason]

New Marriott Point System hurts existing owners

This will negatively impact existing owners. Marriott will now maintain its own internal inventory for owners on the point program, decreasing the availability for those on the traditional week system. This can and will occur on ALL deposits, not just point deposits.

For example, I just deposited my Orlando week last night. Traditionally, the week would automatically go to Interval International for exchange and Marriott owners had first crack at it for 60 days.

With the new system, Marriott has no incentive to give it to Interval. They will maintain it and use it for inventory for their points system, excluding traditional owners who trade with Interval from using it.

Not only is there an up front cost with the new point system, the value that they are assigning to weeks is reduces the opportunity for people who own the less expensive resorts. I have four Marriott weeks that I have successfully traded to Hawaii every year for the last 10 years. They are offering me for my 1950 points for my Orlando Cypress Harbour property. When I searched how many points Maui and Kauai cost, they ranged from 4500 to 6800 points. Therefore, it would cost me two to three weeks for one week in Hawaii.

My Streamside Vail Colorado weeks are only worth 950 and my Hilton Head is worth 450 points!!! I just traded the same Hilton Head property for Kauai for this August. Under the new point system, one week in Kauai would cost me 15 years of Hilton Head weeks.

I guess the system would benefit any owners who own Kauai or Maui. They can probably get 20 weeks in Branson for one of their Hawaii weeks. But Hawaii owners paid the premium to stay in Hawaii every year.

 

[sparty]

An impartial opinion regarding this new system.

The "family" of converts will see steady and painful escalation of costs. Why not you've been captured.

Marriott will have greater sway with all HOA decisions and fees with the added voting rights obtained.

I wouldn't necessarily go so far to say we've been captured. We still have deeds and the right to reserve/rent and not participate in the points program.

With respect to fees.. You really think Marriott can charge 10X over Marriott's competitors? You don't think it's any way market driven?

Oh yeah.. I forgot.. Obama is president.. Maybe Vacation Club will become the G-Club.

Sorry I don't think the program is so terrible

 

[sparty]

How do you get interval fees refunded?

Has anyone got their pre-paid interval fees refunded after joining the program? What's the process to follow?

 

[tombo]

I wouldn't necessarily go so far to say we've been captured. We still have deeds and the right to reserve/rent and not participate in the points program.

With respect to fees.. You really think Marriott can charge 10X over Marriott's competitors? You don't think it's any way market driven?

Oh yeah.. I forgot.. Obama is president.. Maybe Vacation Club will become the G-Club.

Sorry I don't think the program is so terrible

You are captive. You will have too much invested in points just to give up and punt when they increase points needed to reserve weeks you want. Marriott will inch the points reqirements up slowly AFTER they get enough owners enrolled and enough points sold. As they inch points needed over time many will buy a few more points in a few years, then a few more, then eventually you have so much invested in points what is some more money for a few more?


Marriott originally gave owners enough rewards points to reserve their own week. Those owners still get the same number of points for their weeks, yet it takes about twice as many rewards points to reserve your home week as you are given thanks to Marriott charging more and more each year. They will do the same thing with the new points, the only difference is that they are not a bonus incentive like rewards points, they are the monopoly money Marriott actually charges you to reserve weeks.

 

[SueDonJ]

You are captive. You will have too much invested in points just to give up and punt when they increase points needed to reserve weeks you want. Marriott will inch the points reqirements up slowly so you buy a few more in a few years, then a few more, then you have so much invested in points what is some more money for a few more?


Marriott originally gave owners enough rewards points to reserve their own week. Those owners still get the same number of points for their weeks, yet it takes about twice as many rewards points to reserve your home week as you are given thanks to Marriott charging more and more each year. They will do the same thing with the new points, the only difference is that they are not a bonus incentive like rewards points, they are the monopoly money Marriott actually charges you to reserve weeks.

I find it very difficult to believe that Marriott has managed to develop the only timeshare system based on points in which the point totals do not have to correlate to the intervals available at each resort. The disclosures for the program that had to be filed to get this thing off the ground would require that correlation, and it wouldn't pass licensing restrictions without that. Marriott can do what other timeshare systems have done, which is to re-allocate points across intervals in response to demand, but Marriott cannot simply increase across the board every point requirement. Marriott can also increase point values as each new resort, if any, is rolled out, but that's also not the steady points inflation that you're insinuating.

Re-allocation and higher point values for newer resorts were included in that speculation thread and explained completely by folks familiar with point systems. I didn't see any of those folks support the contention of points inflation like you're suggesting here. Why don't you find the language in the available disclosures at your my-vacationclub.com page and post the link here for us to verify it?

 

[DanCali]

Conspiracy Theory or the Week

With respect to fees.. You really think Marriott can charge 10X over Marriott's competitors? You don't think it's any way market driven?

Most people are averse to selling at a loss... They would rather hang on to their dear timeshare even as resale prices crater. Even if it is more logical financially to sell today, rent for 2 years, and possibly buy it back in two years for much less if they like it so much. Making the argument that if fees go up you can just dump your timeshare and go to Hilton is easier said than done. Even the biggest opponents of the points system haven't said they will sell out.

Moreover, this could get worse.

The way the rules stand today you can sell an enrolled unit and the new owner can join for a $2K-5K fee (I believe it's $800 per 1000 points, 2K minimum). Despite the cost, this is an obvious backdoor into the system and beats buying 5000 points for $45K+.

At some point (probably after most have given up their voting rights) Marriott can/will shut the door on this by disallowing any resale into the system and then we'll all be left in a points system, without the ability to vote our resort out of the system, ever increasing MFs, and "assets" almost worthless on the resale market. Look up "voluntary resorts" on the Starwood board for a glimpse into this world. Or look up Sheraton Desert Oasis, Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Sheraton Vistana Resort and Westin Princeville (among others) on ebay to see what resale prices will look like.

So that's my conspiracy theory of the week. Bookmark this post and let's revisit in 5 years.

 

[icydog]

Most people are averse to selling at a loss... They would rather hang on to their dear timeshare even as resale prices crater. Even if it is more logical financially to sell today, rent for 2 years, and possibly buy it back in two years for much less if they like it so much. Making the argument that if fees go up you can just dump your timeshare and go to Hilton is easier said than done. Even the biggest opponents of the points system haven't said they will sell out.

Moreover, this could get worse.

The way the rules stand today you can sell an enrolled unit and the new owner can join for a $2K-5K fee (I believe it's $800 per 1000 points, 2K minimum). Despite the cost, this is an obvious backdoor into the system and beats buying 5000 points for $45K+.

At some point (probably after most have given up their voting rights) Marriott can/will shut the door on this by disallowing any resale into the system and then we'll all be left in a points system, without the ability to vote our resort out of the system, ever increasing MFs, and "assets" almost worthless on the resale market. Look up "voluntary resorts" on the Starwood board for a glimpse into this world. Or look up Sheraton Desert Oasis, Sheraton Broadway Plantation, Sheraton Vistana Resort and Westin Princeville (among others) on ebay to see what resale prices will look like.

So that's my conspiracy theory of the week. Bookmark this post and let's revisit in 5 years.

That's quite a theory. Is it the one that goes after "the sky is falling" theory. I do not agree with the gloom and doom theory you propose we accept. I think that Marriott is not putting this whole thing together to adversely impact the value of our weeks. I think the converse is true. I believe our weeks in the Club Point program will be enhanced in value due to the flexibility of the program. I love the idea of traveling during the weekdays thereby leaving more points on the table for future travel.

The program as Marriott has outlined it is VERY similar to DVC's. I have complete confidence that it will work as well as DVCs and I have been using that point system for 18 years. I know it is NOT perfect but it is good enough to be of value to me. I don't believe the Sky is actually going to fall or that Marriott will allow its timeshares to flounder in a sea of unkept promises. I cannot be that pessimistic, and I hope that when I revisit your post in 5 years, that I will be vacationing like I always have-- in the lap of luxury-- at a Marriott Resort.

 

[DanCali]

That's quite a theory.

Yes, it is

I think that Marriott is not putting this whole thing together to adversely impact the value of our weeks.

No, they are putting it to together to make money. But charging each new owner $2K-$5K to join inevitably hurts resale values

I think the converse is true. I believe our weeks in the Club Point program will be enhanced in value due to the flexibility of the program. I love the idea of traveling during the weekdays thereby leaving more points on the table for future travel.

That may be true, especially for multiple week owners. And even if my theory is true and they disallow any resale into the program sometime in the future you can continue to enjoy all that flexibility as long as you own. That doesn't change the reality that if they do what I said, resale values will crash. It will only affect you if and when you sell.

Someone can pay Starwood $55K to buy at Westin Princeville and they get a lot of Flexibility. Internal trades, hotel points, a wonderful resort etc. And as long as they own it and pay MFs they keep that flexibility. It's all great but when resale buyers cannot do any internal trades and can only use or trade via II, that resort is worth 95% less (maybe 98% less, if you think this auction is representative) on the resale market.

Nobody saw the "skimming" coming... so don't think this can't happen. I'm not saying it will, but if Marriott loses sales because everyone figures out they can pay 20% of their prices by buying enrolled units resale, they will close that loophole. And when they do, resale will be dead because II trading will be undesirable by them after we all tout the new system's flexibility.