Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[tombo]

I notice in the disclosure documents that if you have points remaining at the end of the year that are not enough to book any single stay type that you lose those points and can't roll them over. So if you have 2150 points and only need 2100 for a stay, you lose those 50 points. They are not any good for booking anything at any resort, so they are gone forever.

You can't save up those 50 points each year by rolling them over to combine them at one point for an extra day.

More points paid for by points members that end up in Marriott's kitty. Good thing Marriott gets those extra points, otherwise they might have skimmed 15% TO 20% off of everyone's deposit instead of 7% to 13%.

 

[tombo]

No offense, but who are you (not just RandR, but a bunch of people) kidding when you say "no lockoff fees?" Please don't be naive.

Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.

Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):

MOC IV Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2700 + 3850 = 6550
MOC IV 2BR Feb 18: 5675

Difference: 875 points ($437 "lockoff fee")


MGV Studio + 2BR Feb 25: 1575 + 3175 = 4750
MGV 3BR Feb 25: 4225

Difference: 525 points ($262 "lockoff fee")

Timberlodge Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2675 + 3675 = 6350
Timberlodge 2BR Feb 18: 5675

Difference: 675 points ($337 "lockoff fee")

Timberlodge Studio + 2BR Jan 7: 1950 + 4225 = 6175
Timberlodge 3BR Jan 7: 5225

Difference: 950 points ($475 "lockoff fee")

To be fair, there are a few select weeks where a 3BR Timberlodge is worth more than a studio + a 2BR, but that's the exception at that resort as well as in the entire system.

For the owners who were willing to pay me $400 for 800 points should I convert, I assume you value a point at more than $0.50, so feel free to use your own conversion rate to see what the lockoff fees truly are.

I realize you were pointing to the cash outlay. But many peole seem to think $199 and done and that they are saving a ton versus II fees, lockoff fees, split fees etc. The above show you that the "hidden lockoff fees" are much higher. The "skim" is another hidden cost because 7 days at your home resort now get you 5-6 days at a comparable resort (not to mention f you are not premier you can only book those at 10 months out, so forget high demand weeks - another hidden cost).

In the past it would have cost you $89+$109+109=$307 to trade a 2BR lockoff into a 1BR and a studio (but many times you may have gotten an upgrade). Based on those "hidden" lockoff fees above, on top of the annual fee, it's hard to argue the new system is more economical... that's besides that fact that you simply cannot trade into a comparable resort for two weeks with a single 2BR since you don't have the necessary points! But if you use points from a second resort, or rent the point from a member, you pay that "hidden" fee .

Thank you for taking the time to post specific costs. As you said so many are buying the marriott pitch of when you convert to points and pay $165 a year you can use points to exchange and use lock-offs with no exchange fees and no lock-off fees. There are no cash exchange/lockoff fees, but there are costs to use points that Marriott snuck into their points program. In your posts you clearly show the hidden costs of point skimming (breakage) and prove that the real cost of exchanging and locking off using points is higher that what II charges. In addition using points to exchange guarantees that you will never trade up like you can often do using II. In fact thanks to skimming you are guaranteed that you will never even be able to trade like for like using points, much less trade up. Great posts to inform and educate.

 

[wsrobinson]

OK one more since you offered the last word. You present yourself as the only person or one of the few that can look at this objectively and constantly refer to the governing Docs that you and only you have thoroughly read. But you miss a major point I believe. Ex: I own Aruba Surf Club which is legally "the association" which has 100% of the shares in the association ownership. These shares represent the 2 & 3 BR units of the development. Owners purchased shares in the association not a deed. When the development is is sold out all shares in the Association, or most anyway , will be owned by the owners of these shares and owners of these shares will vote for the Board of Directors. Now I know Marriott assigns some A directors but gradually they dwindle with time and how the sales program is going. Hope you agree so far! We agree the so-called Governing Documents control the rules etc. BUT the board of Directors voted in by the A share Association members (owners) can amend the Governing Documents. So tell me what I'm missing. I might be wrong but I believe some of the sold out developments BOD's are 100% controlled by the owners
And I can't believe that you keep saying verbal agreements and implied warranties are not legally enforceable. Why don't you ask BP and their shareholders if the total costs they are and will pay are spelled out in law or in their Governing Documents. What law did GS break; granted they have not been convicted yet but it is a perceived responsibility of disclosure or lack thereof to their customers not a written law. SO please stop preaching rules of law that even some of the best minds in this country don't understand never mind you or me.

And To Tombo- Roll Tide

I am not sure relating BP and the fiasco in the Gulf is even remotely similar to the new program Marriott has rolled out (or anything Marriott has done in the distant past). Without getting into a discussion of all the facts surrounding BP, suffice it to say their deplorable record speaks for itself. Marriott has rolled out a new program, you are NOT forced to join the last time I checked (and no wildlife has been harmed). It seems to me like some people are happy about the new program, why not just let them make their decision and be happy. If your neighbor buys a new car, do you walk over and tell him what an awful car it is, how bad the design is, ugly the color is, what a bad deal he got, etc. or do you just admire the car and privately chastise him?

 

[KathyPet]

Why Why Why are so many people absolutely fixated on the fact that they are not receiving enough VC points from Marriott to trade to other "like" resorts or in some cases even back into their home resort??? I truly do not understand. You don't have to use VC points to trade to other resorts or to book your own resort. You simply book your resort on line for the week you want or book a week, deposit to II and request a trade. Marriott has not taken anything away from you. You still have all the same capability that you had before. You don't have to enroll in the Vacation point program if you don't want to. Personally I think Marriott has treated its current owners very fairly. We still have the ability to resell a deeded or right to use week in a certain resort for a certain season. I do prefer that option to "you just buy points". I think that having the right to sell a deeded week or right to use week with rights to use your home week, trade through II, trade for MR points and then have the new Vacation Club point option is a pretty darn good deal. That point differential between what owners are getting for their weeks vs what they might have to use in points to go elsewhere in the vacation points system obviously has a lot of people's tighty whites in a bunch but you don't have to use the system unless you want to. Sorry all you Marriott haters out there but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[m61376]

If my 3BR points value gets me a 2BR in exchange back to my home resort in a higher-demand season, with points left over to be used in a studio or 1BR somewhere else, how is that any different than what I said in the post you quoted? This is what I said - what is different about how it's working?

If it does- then the system may very week work for you. Actually, it seems like the HH point allotments may have been fairly equitable, since it seems like owners were awarded mid range values in their seasons.

I can tell you that my Platinum OS Surf Club unit was not awarded enough points to reserve ANY week in the season, and my 3BR Gold week, awarded a hundred points less, could not reserve any 2BR in the higher season. Moreover, OS weeks, which Marriott charged 3-4K more for, received the same point allocation as OV weeks.

And, clearly, many others cannot reserve weeks in their season as well. Fixed week owners were awarded fewer points than their week costs to book.

These cases are clear evidence of Marriott's skimming. Instead of being able to get equivalent trades, if I don't have enough points to book the equivalent unit in my home resort, I don't have enough points to book it anywhere else either. So, for certain owners at least, Marriott has ensured that they will always have to be downgraded- of course, unless they want to shell out another $9200 + $400 per year in perpetuity.

 

[m61376]

Yep - and I am still basking in vacation glow from our 2-weeks at Westin St John...

I was over here to try and figure out what was going on - this thread must be the all-time winner in the #post/day. As a partially biased non-Marriott owner - Marriott is really screwing Marriott Owners here no matter how one cuts it. I am afraid that the upper-managment at SVO is trying to figure out how to outdue MVC managment in screwing over their owners so they can be #1 again in sucking as much $ they can from the Owners while keeping their house of cards from falling... It might be challenging - but I am sure SVO will come up with something.

Maybe that's it- just a frightening competition

 

[tombo]

Why Why Why are so many people absolutely fixated on the fact that they are not receiving enough VC points from Marriott to trade to other "like" resorts or in some cases even back into their home resort??? I truly do not understand. You don't have to use VC points to trade to other resorts or to book your own resort. You simply book your resort on line for the week you want or book a week, deposit to II and request a trade. Marriott has not taken anything away from you. You still have all the same capability that you had before. You don't have to enroll in the Vacation point program if you don't want to. Personally I think Marriott has treated its current owners very fairly. We still have the ability to resell a deeded or right to use week in a certain resort for a certain season. I do prefer that option to "you just buy points". I think that having the right to sell a deeded week or right to use week with rights to use your home week, trade through II, trade for MR points and then have the new Vacation Club point option is a pretty darn good deal. That point differential between what owners are getting for their weeks vs what they might have to use in points to go elsewhere in the vacation points system obviously has a lot of people's tighty whites in a bunch but you don't have to use the system unless you want to. Sorry all you Marriott haters out there but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

If we could be guaranteed to still do what we have always done it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that in addition to the points skim making sure that you will never trade up or even get like for like trades ,narriott will no longer deposit it's developer's inventory into II for weeks owners access. Marriott inventory will from now on be available exclusivelly for points owners. Marriott is doing everything in their power to reduce access to inventory for those who don't convert. They have created two separate groups of owners, and Marriott has a vested interest to make sure that the points owners get better access to better inventory than the weeeks owners.

DVC sold points and only points, so does Starwood, HGVC, and others. If people want to join points programs, those are available through other developers. I don't now and never did like points which is why I own over 20 different weeks at various resorts, and none of the weeks I own are points. Points are like Monopoly money, they have imaginary values and the values are subject to change at any time. If you have any doubts see how marriott has adjusted Marriott rewards points values through the years so that they are much less valuable currently than they started out.

Marriott to make money has totally changed their program they sold for over 20 years and are no longer promoting and supporting weeks and instead are pushing and promoting points for marriott profit. If they build any new resorts, rather than being available to all Marriott owners, exchanges at all new resorts will only be available to points members. When you purchased marriott you became a part of the Marriott family. Somehow weeks owners are getting disowned and becoming the red headed step child of Marriott timeshares.

Marriott is also taking the votes from owners who convert to points. If they want the vote they never had access to before, they have something in mind they want to use it for, and it is something they don't think owners would vote for or they would leave the vote with owners when they convert.

If you want points, buy a points resort. We ALL purchased weeks. Marriott should stay true to it's customers and continue weeks the program they developed and sold for several decades.

 

[wsrobinson]

If it does- then the system may very week work for you. Actually, it seems like the HH point allotments may have been fairly equitable, since it seems like owners were awarded mid range values in their seasons.

I can tell you that my Platinum OS Surf Club unit was not awarded enough points to reserve ANY week in the season, and my 3BR Gold week, awarded a hundred points less, could not reserve any 2BR in the higher season. Moreover, OS weeks, which Marriott charged 3-4K more for, received the same point allocation as OV weeks.

And, clearly, many others cannot reserve weeks in their season as well. Fixed week owners were awarded fewer points than their week costs to book.

These cases are clear evidence of Marriott's skimming. Instead of being able to get equivalent trades, if I don't have enough points to book the equivalent unit in my home resort, I don't have enough points to book it anywhere else either. So, for certain owners at least, Marriott has ensured that they will always have to be downgraded- of course, unless they want to shell out another $9200 + $400 per year in perpetuity.

After reading thru 100's of posts, it is clear NO ONE can book a week in their home resort. I, for one, am so glad I have options in that regard. I can a) not join the new program and continue business as usual, or b) join the program and continue business as usual. I don't think there is a "c". As far as skimming, seems like that poor horse has been beat to death. How many different ways can you lay something out? I understand Marriott has costs associated with the new program (housekeeping, unused nights, etc). If we all got points commensurate with our units and no points were skimmed, but Marriott passed the extra expenses on to us as increased maint fees people would be (hard to imagine really but) more inflamed than they are now. As a public corporation, isn't Marriott allowed to make a profit? If you are a shareholder, or an employee you certainly want Marriott to be successful.

 

[m61376]

I think because it is not spelled out as an exchange fee and seems like Marriott was trying to hide this or think people would not notice is what has people upset.
On one hand Marriott states "your annual fee of covers all internal Marriott trades", but then takes a bit of your points to pay for it bothers people.
I think it would have been fairer for Marriott to say, "All II Marriott exchanges are covered by your annual fee, all points trades cost $xx per trade", and adjust the fee accordingly. If you have a week that costs 4000 points to get and Marriott gives you 93% of that amount that results in 280 points Marriott kept. If those points are worth $0.40 (Marriott's number) in maintenance fees that is a dollar value of $112. This seems like a high exchange charge, in addition to your yearly fee, if you went for one exchange (a 7 day week). If you did 7 one day exchanges this would not seem so bad. This is why I think Marriott would have been better off giving full value in point to weeks owners and charged a small fee per exchange.

Ray

I don't think you can just consider that Marirott is taking the number of points x .40 to determine the lost value. That just covers the MF's- but what about the cost to buy those points or buy the minimum quantity of points necessary just to replaced the value lost by the skimming?

 

[wsrobinson]

If we could be guaranteed to still do what we have always done it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that in addition to the points skim making sure that you will never trade up or even get like for like trades ,narriott will no longer deposit it's developer's inventory into II for weeks owners access. Marriott inventory will from now on be available exclusivelly for points owners. Marriott is doing everything in their power to reduce access to inventory for those who don't convert. They have created two separate groups of owners, and Marriott has a vested interest to make sure that the points owners get better access to better inventory than the weeeks owners.

DVC sold points and only points, so does Starwood, HGVC, and others. If people want to join points programs, those are available through other developers. I don't now and never did like points which is why I own over 20 different weeks at various resorts, and none of the weeks I own are points. Points are like Monopoly money, they have imaginary values and the values are subject to change at any time. If you have any doubts see how marriott has adjusted Marriott rewards points values through the years so that they are much less valuable currently than they started out.

Marriott to make money has totally changed their program they sold for over 20 years and are no longer promoting and supporting weeks and instead are pushing and promoting points for marriott profit. If they build any new resorts, rather than being available to all Marriott owners, exchanges at all new resorts will only be available to points members. When you purchased marriott you became a part of the Marriott family. Somehow weeks owners are getting disowned and becoming the red headed step child of Marriott timeshares.

Marriott is also taking the votes from owners who convert to points. If they want the vote they never had access to before, they have something in mind they want to use it for, and it is something they don't think owners would vote for or they would leave the vote with owners when they convert.

If you want points, buy a points resort. We ALL purchased weeks. Marriott should stay true to it's customers and continue weeks the program they developed and sold for several decades.

So, basically this is sour grapes? Sounds like you realize that you need to buy into the points program and are just not at all happy about being "forced" to do so??? Am I reading into your post too much?

 

[DanCali]

To Those Who Complaind About Availability in Weeks

I recall some people didn't like the fact that owners reserved high-demand weeks weeks at their home resorts to deposit in II. My argument was that at least you can still get those weeks...

How do you think you will fare when it comes to availability now that any Orlando or Branson owner with enough points can reserve a week at your home resort and rent it out? Once those weeks are reserved, they ar not coming back unless you pay cash...

 

[potterew]

I have 2 weeks bought from the developer and an additional week that I discovered post TUG through resale. This seems like I have a bad deal because I have to pay both initiation fees, although it shouldn't exceed $1995.

I have 2 weeks in Hawaii that I will only use or at worst case rent. I never intend to trade them. I also have a week in Myrtle Beach, which will probably be traded occasionally. Those of you who have spent many hours evaluating this, how would you handle this?

 

[m61376]

Some of the Marriott apologists on the board are inclined to blame the legacy owners for relying on the explanations of Marriott’s sales staff over the past 20 + years as to how the system would work. The apologists, ignoring the fact that the sales staff was well trained by Marriott in what to say, suggest that we should have ignored what the sales staff was telling us because there statements were not in writing and were not binding contracts.

I submit the apologists miss the point. The new system is worse than the system that we were induced to purchase in several ways, including the following:

1. We were told we would be able to do exchanges of similar units throughout the Marriott system, subject to availability. By skimming the points and messing around with the availability of the units, Marriott has interfered with our ability to make those types of exchanges.
2. We were told that one reason we should buy a Marriott timeshare was that the ability to obtain Marriott reward points was a valuable asset. At the time I purchased, it was very valuable. I can bank 105,000 rewards points for my unit. When I bought, that amount of points was enough to rent my timeshare for a week. Several years ago, in a precursor to this latest skim, Marriott inflated the points it would charge for my unit by 50%, yet continued to give me the same amount of points. In sum, it devalued my rewards points by 50%. So the value of my rewards was reduced from a week at a timeshare to 5 days at a Courtyard!
3. We were told that there was real value in buying from Marriott as opposed to buying at resale. The new system shows that representation was as hollow as the others.

I’ve had several conversations with Marriott’s representatives about this new system. They acknowledge to me that the dream of timeshare ownership that induced many of us to buy Marriott timeshares is much better than the reality of the new system. One representative candidly told me that he thought that Marriott’s devaluation of the rewards points was even worse than the new system it just designed.

Those representatives, who included supervisors and point specialists, have also acknowledged to me that Marriott could have devised a new system that charged us a premium when we wanted flexibility, such as reserving less than a week, without having to universally skim points from us on week to week exchanges. So even the Marriott representatives on the phone are unable to give a legitimate explanation for the skim, other than that Marriott has the legal right to do it.

Whether or not you agree that Marriott’s conduct in skimming points amounts to theft, I think we should all be able to agree that Marriott has presented itself to the public and to us as an honest and ethical company, and that one of the reasons that many of us spent so much money buying Marriott timeshares is because we believed that we were dealing with an honest and ethical company. The important issue is whether Marriott is treating us in a fair and ethical way. The anger and hurt that many of us are expressing are based on our disappointment when we finally realized that Marriott is acting no better than its competitors, and in a lot of ways, is acting worse. As a result, the argument that Marriott is not technically acting in a criminal way and is not technically committing theft is irrelevant; the company has been harmed immensely when the strongest argument its supporters can come up with is that it has technically not committed theft or that we were naive because we believe its sales staff was telling the truth.

Marriott’s treatment of the legacy owners may turn out to be extremely shortsighted. It has created an unwieldy system that will be hard to sell on economic grounds, and will be even harder to sell when the legacy owners tell the new owners how they’ve been treated. Why would any one invest significant money in the new system once that person learns that the rules can and will change whenever it is in Marriott’s interest to do so? I also think it will be difficult for Marriott to retain some of its prior sales force who are being called upon to ignore the fact that what they told the legacy owners for 20 years turned out to be pie in the sky.

Well said!
Keep in mind that Fletch said he and I believe 4 other top salespeople jumped ship because they knew some of the details of what was coming....

 

[tombo]

After reading thru 100's of posts, it is clear NO ONE can book a week in their home resort. I, for one, am so glad I have options in that regard. I can a) not join the new program and continue business as usual, or b) join the program and continue business as usual. I don't think there is a "c". As far as skimming, seems like that poor horse has been beat to death. How many different ways can you lay something out? I understand Marriott has costs associated with the new program (housekeeping, unused nights, etc). If we all got points commensurate with our units and no points were skimmed, but Marriott passed the extra expenses on to us as increased maint fees people would be (hard to imagine really but) more inflamed than they are now. As a public corporation, isn't Marriott allowed to make a profit? If you are a shareholder, or an employee you certainly want Marriott to be successful.

a.If you do not join the program and marriott limits access to inventory for weeks owners shifting it to points members, it is not business as usual.
b.If you join the program and continue business as usual, you give up your vote and your week if deposited in II is deposited as points inventory, so again not business as usual.
c. Marriott has costs like housekeeping which justifies skimming of points?? Did those housekeepers suddenly appear with points? Didn't we have housekeeping before points was introduced on the 20th? Those should easily be covered as they always have been by MF's. My MF's didn't drop since points were introduced. If Marriott instead of hiding the costs as points skimmed charged $109 per exchange like II, you would have access to all of your points and could make like for like exchanges. It would be acceptable and there would be little uproar. Marriott doesn't want to do that because you would have no incentive to buy more points. If you can't exchange for like resorts thanks to their skimming you might buy more points, and Marriott set it up that way on purpose. I would gladly pay $109 per exchange and get ALL of my points rather than have to spend $9200 plus $400 more per year in MF's just to get enough points have access to like for like trades with no exchange fees!

Profit? Marriott already made profit when they sold all of these weeks. The owners have already paid Marriott for what they own, even resale owners, because every week at one time or another was sold by Marriott. Do we have to keep repurchasing the weeks we own every so often so Marriott can make more profit on us?

In addition Marriott still makes profit managing Marriott resorts through mgt fees taken from our MF's. Is that not enough profit either? So now Marriott is charging owners between $599 and $1999 to convert. Is that not enough profit either? If not let them charge more to convert, but don't sneak it in as a skim. DVC doesn't skim, HGVC, Starwood, everyone but Marriott can run a points program profitably without skimming points from owners. Marriott charges $165 per year to be a points member. If that is not enough to run the program without skimming points then as I said before, charge more for annual fees. Skimming points for profit while claiming that exchnages and lock-offs are done for no charge is a new low for any timeshare organization, and the type thing you expect from Wyndham or Wastegate, not Marriott.

 

[SueDonJ]

... I can tell you that my Platinum OS Surf Club unit was not awarded enough points to reserve ANY week in the season, and my 3BR Gold week, awarded a hundred points less, could not reserve any 2BR in the higher season. Moreover, OS weeks, which Marriott charged 3-4K more for, received the same point allocation as OV weeks. ...

That SurfClub OS/OV issue with Marriott not allotting more points to the intervals they sold for a higher price makes no sense to me. None. I read it in one of these threads the first day and thought maybe it was one of the computer glitch mistakes that SurfWatch had, but then I saw a post from someone who said they'd confirmed it wasn't a mistake. I forget where the post was, what thread, but I suggested that person write a letter to a Marriott exec with that valid concern. Just like I said there, it may not do any good but a letter is probably not going to get lost like one phone complaint among the thousands of telephone calls that are coming in might, and it's always better to take legitimate concerns to the top. Good luck to all you, m, if you do decide to challenge it further. Among all the cacophony of "Unfair!" charges, this is the one that seems most legitimate to me.

 

[tombo]

So, basically this is sour grapes? Sounds like you realize that you need to buy into the points program and are just not at all happy about being "forced" to do so??? Am I reading into your post too much?

Why should anyone be forced into a points program when every owner purchased weeks? No one would need to buy into points if marriott hadn't changed everything they have promised and sold for 20 years. Obviously their word and reputation is not important to them.

Perhaps points will work out well for some, but I can assure you I will never pay them the extortion because they decided to threaten owners with either converting to the new program or being left behind in order for Marriott to make profit on the backs of their current customers. They already showed how well they will honor points through the years as they constantly devalued rewards points. They once upon a time sold Rewards Points as the best part of the Marriott program. Now the points they gave you will get you about half the stays you could originally get using rewards points. Of course this time it will be different because they promise these NEW points are the best thing ever! Once again they show us how they will devalue points right of the bat by skimming points from every deposit and from every lock off. With that points track record anyone who converts to points hoping Marriott will treat them well must be delusional. I will stick with my deed and deeded rights which they can't take away or change unlike points which they state can be changed at any time. From past experience the inevitable future points changes will be good for Marriott and bad for owners.

 

[wsrobinson]

a.If you do not join the program and marriott limits access to inventory for weeks owners shifting it to points members, it is no business as usual.

Has this happened or are you Nostrodamus?

b.If you join the program and continue business as usual, you give up your vote and your week if deposited in II is deposited as points inventory, so again not business as usual.

So what? I've been an owner for almost 20 years and can't remember a time when something was worth voting on. Now, if you attend the annual meeting every year and vote on new business brought before the board I think you have an argument here. Otherwise, who cares?

c. Marriott has costs like housekeeping? Did those suddenly appear with points? Didn't we have housekeeping before points was introduced on the 20th? Those should easily be covered as they always have been by MF's. My MF's didn't drop since points were introduced. If Marriott instead of hiding the costs as points skimmed charged $109 per exchange like II, you would have access to all of your points and could make like for like exchanges. It would be acceptable and there would be little uproar. Marriott doesn't want to do that because you would have no incentive to buy more points. If you can't exchange for like resorts thanks to their skimming you might buy more points, and Marriott set it up that way on purpose. I would gladly pay $109 per exchange and get ALL of my points rather than have to spend $9200 plus $400 more per year in MF's just to get enough points have access to like for like trades with no exchange fees!

Marriott currently has housekeeping expenses which are added to maint fee at a rate of ONCE per week (and looking at the budget its a pretty huge expense) under the new points system, they could have housekeeping expenses 7 times a week. In extreme cases of course but that is a considerable expense.

Profit? Marriott already made profit when they sold all of these weeks. The owners have already paid Marriott for what they own, even resale owners, because every week at one time or another was sold by Marriott. Do we have to keep repurchasing the weeks we own every so often so Marriott can make more profit on s?

I bought developer and yet have no ill will toward Marriott. Are you that unhappy with your purchase. They have counseling for that.

In addition Marriott still makes profit managing Marriott resorts through mgt fees taken from our MF's. Is that not enough profit either? So now Marriott is charging owners between $599 and $1999 to convert. Is that not enough profit either? If not let them charge more to convert, but don't sneak it in as a skim. DVC doesn't skim (this isnt true. you don't know because DVC has always been points),
HGVC, Starwood, everyone but Marriott can run a points program profitably without skimming points from owners. Marriott charges $165 per year to be a points member. If that is not enough to run the program without skimming points then as I said before, charge more for annual fees. Skimming points for profit while claiming that exchnages and lock-offs are done for no charge is a new low for any timeshare organization, and the type thing you expect from Wyndham or Wastegate, not Marriott.

I certainly understand some hard feelings but some of this is ridiculous

 

[m61376]

After reading thru 100's of posts, it is clear NO ONE can book a week in their home resort. I, for one, am so glad I have options in that regard. I can a) not join the new program and continue business as usual, or b) join the program and continue business as usual. I don't think there is a "c". As far as skimming, seems like that poor horse has been beat to death. How many different ways can you lay something out? I understand Marriott has costs associated with the new program (housekeeping, unused nights, etc). If we all got points commensurate with our units and no points were skimmed, but Marriott passed the extra expenses on to us as increased maint fees people would be (hard to imagine really but) more inflamed than they are now. As a public corporation, isn't Marriott allowed to make a profit? If you are a shareholder, or an employee you certainly want Marriott to be successful.

Marriott already made a profit the first time they sold the week. Is it your contention that they should now be making a second profit on those same units?

Business will not be as usual because of inventory issues as pointed out repeatedly by others.

Many other systems charge housekeeping costs for shorter stays- why should every owner pay for those costs if they aren't splitting up their stays? Marriott is touting a singular fee for all activities- locking off, exchanging, etc.- but, in reality, it is not the 169 or 199 that they tout it as being. It is also 7-15% of the value of your week.

And, last but not least, if you had carefully read through many of the posts you would see there are many owners who appear to have received the average value for weeks in their season, while others cannot book even a single week in their season. Furthermore, I know of no other property where Marriott charged 3-4K up front for a better view but assigned the same points to both view categories (there may be- I just am unaware of the situation).

If what was given was the same as what was being taken, you would not hear so much outrage. But advertising a low fee for everything and then hiding the real fees by skimming off the top smells of usury, imho. You are free to disagree.

 

[brigechols]

Why should anyone be forced into a points program when every owner purchased weeks? No one would need to buy into points if marriott hadn't changed everything they have promised and sold for 20 years. Obviously their word and reputation is not important to them.

Perhaps points will work out well for some, but I can assure you I will never pay them the extortion because they decided to threaten owners with either converting to the new program or being left behind in order for Marriott to make profit on the backs of their current customers. They already showed how well they will honor points through the years as they constantly devalued rewards points. They once upon a time sold that as the best part of the Marriott program. Now the points they gave you will get you about half the stays you could originally get using rewards points. Of course this time it will be different because they promise these NEW points are the best thing ever! Once again they show us how they will devalue points right of the bat by skimming points from every deposit and from every lock off. With that points track record anyone who converts to points hoping Marriott will treat them well must be delusional. I will stick with my deed and deeded rights which they can't take away or change unlike points which they state can be changed at any time. From past experince the changes in points will be good for Marriott and bad for owners.

I concur Count me in the "Left Behind" club. I'll keep my weeks out of the points program.

 

[wsrobinson]

Why should anyone be forced into a points program when every owner purchased weeks? No one would need to buy into points if marriott hadn't changed everything they have promised and sold for 20 years. Obviously their word and reputation is not important to them.

Last time I checked, NO ONE is being forced into anything.

Perhaps points will work out well for some, but I can assure you I will never pay them the extortion because they decided to threaten owners with either converting to the new program or being left behind in order for Marriott to make profit on the backs of their current customers. They already showed how well they will honor points through the years as they constantly devalued rewards points. They once upon a time sold Rewards Points as the best part of the Marriott program. Now the points they gave you will get you about half the stays you could originally get using rewards points. Of course this time it will be different because they promise these NEW points are the best thing ever! Once again they show us how they will devalue points right of the bat by skimming points from every deposit and from every lock off. With that points track record anyone who converts to points hoping Marriott will treat them well must be delusional. I will stick with my deed and deeded rights which they can't take away or change unlike points which they state can be changed at any time. From past experience the inevitable future points changes will be good for Marriott and bad for owners.

I suppose Frito-Lay is the great satan because they now sell 2.5 OZ Doritos at the price that they used to sell 6 OZ bags for. Maybe Kelloggs should be disbanded because they charge twice as much for half as much cereal (even though corn has remained at least until ethanol extremely cheap). Airline miles, whoa no changes to those programs. Need I go on...

 

[jimf41]

I certainly understand some hard feelings but some of this is ridiculous

I second the motion.

 

[m61376]

That SurfClub OS/OV issue with Marriott not allotting more points to the intervals they sold for a higher price makes no sense to me. None. I read it in one of these threads the first day and thought maybe it was one of the computer glitch mistakes that SurfWatch had, but then I saw a post from someone who said they'd confirmed it wasn't a mistake. I forget where the post was, what thread, but I suggested that person write a letter to a Marriott exec with that valid concern. Just like I said there, it may not do any good but a letter is probably not going to get lost like one phone complaint among the thousands of telephone calls that are coming in might, and it's always better to take legitimate concerns to the top. Good luck to all you, m, if you do decide to challenge it further. Among all the cacophony of "Unfair!" charges, this is the one that seems most legitimate to me.

Already done- as well as pointing out that the Plat. SC weeks are among the units that weren't allotted enough points to book a single week in their season. I can understand where weeks were awarded a middle of the season value, but not less than any week in the season.

I also hoped it was just a glitch, but talking with the reps it doesn't appear that way. I did write to several people and I'll see if anything comes of it. I don't get how Marriott last week charged more and this week says it's worth the same. Oh- and btw- they still charge more on their website to rent it when the OS units aren't sold out (and they tend to be the ones sold out first). I guess someone thinks they are worth more.

 

[wsrobinson]

Marriott already made a profit the first time they sold the week. Is it your contention that they should now be making a second profit on those same units?

Business will not be as usual because of inventory issues as pointed out repeatedly by others.

Many other systems charge housekeeping costs for shorter stays- why should every owner pay for those costs if they aren't splitting up their stays? Marriott is touting a singular fee for all activities- locking off, exchanging, etc.- but, in reality, it is not the 169 or 199 that they tout it as being. It is also 7-15% of the value of your week.

And, last but not least, if you had carefully read through many of the posts you would see there are many owners who appear to have received the average value for weeks in their season, while others cannot book even a single week in their season. Furthermore, I know of no other property where Marriott charged 3-4K up front for a better view but assigned the same points to both view categories (there may be- I just am unaware of the situation).

If what was given was the same as what was being taken, you would not hear so much outrage. But advertising a low fee for everything and then hiding the real fees by skimming off the top smells of usury, imho. You are free to disagree.

The OS/OV mess is a valid point. I agree w/ you on that alone and think Marriott will eventually correct it (especially if you bring it to their attention).

 

[m61376]

I suppose Frito-Lay is the great satan because they now sell 2.5 OZ Doritos at the price that they used to sell 6 OZ bags for. Maybe Kelloggs should be disbanded because they charge twice as much for half as much cereal (even though corn has remained at least until ethanol extremely cheap). Airline miles, whoa no changes to those programs. Need I go on...

Funny- you can look at your post two ways- I actually see it as a likely indication of the future. Marriott has clearly indicated that they see nothing wrong with devaluing a week, by virtue of the fact that they are charging more than they are giving. Hmmm...reminiscent of the rewards point program. Value are set today, but costs go up next year, and the year after....

In a points trust the number of points in the trust are set- so that Marriott cannot sell more points than are currently in the trust. BUT is there a limit on what they can charge? Today for every 100,000 points units are valued at they are charging in the area of 110,000; can they decide to add a few bells and whistles (like the wonderful improvements in the rewards points program) and now charge 115,000, etc.? Is there anything to prevent future devaluation, except to blindly trust them, because of course they have never done anything like that before?

 

[tombo]

I suppose Frito-Lay is the great satan because they now sell 2.5 OZ Doritos at the price that they used to sell 6 OZ bags for. Maybe Kelloggs should be disbanded because they charge twice as much for half as much cereal (even though corn has remained at least until ethanol extremely cheap). Airline miles, whoa no changes to those programs. Need I go on...

Frito Lay doesn't sell you a 6 ounce bag and when you actually want to eat them require you to give 2 ounces of the chips to Frito Lay so they can make additional profit on what they already sold you. They don't say the bag is 6 ounces of chips, but skim 2 ounces at the factory only giving you 4 ounces you can actually eat in order to cover Frito Lay expenses and make profit. If they did that it would be a good analogy. Marriott is skimming product you have paid for and hiding exchange costs and other fees using their new points. Frito lay gives you all 6 ounces you purchased, Marriott gives you less points than you purchased.

Hey you love it, convert. I think it is a rip off, i won't convert, and I will explain skimming, loss of vote, hidden fees, and other problems with the program. You explain the good things. Then everyone on TUG will have the chance to listen to those who like the points program, and those who don't, and decide whether they want to convert or not using real facts rather than Marriott's sales facts.