Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[Brenda]

good afternoon,....

Brenda:

where did you find these "combo packages" ????

please advise

Actually, my Marriott salesperson sent it to me in an email. I check the points and they are correct. It is a great marketing for points usage.

 

[MauiLover]

What I will tell the salesperson

We own two weeks in Maui resale. I may join the program even though I doubt I will ever trade for points. I would do this just for the ability to get my resale weeks "equivalent" to developer, and also for future flexibility should I ever need it or in case weeks inventory dries up.

However, I will not ever be buying any points. I am staying at Canyon Villas next month for a "staycation" (we live in phx), and this is what I am going to say to the salesperson when we go for a presentation:

If we bought points for this staycation it would cost 1,225 points. That would cost $11,515 at $9.40 per point. We would then have annual maintenance fees of $490 at $0.40 per point. Over twenty years we would have total costs of $21,315 ($11,515 + ($490 * 20)). 20 years X 7 nights equals 140 total nights. $21,315 / 140 = $152 per night. This is assuming that MFs and points required never go up (yeah, right). I booked the week I am staying here on II Getaway for $57 per night. How are points a good deal?

 

[edge4414]

Oh geeze, now you've outed me. I was just at the point where I thought I'd better start wringing my hands, gnashing my teeth and keening to the timeshare gods - "aaaiiieee!!! there goes my resale value!!!" - to protect my cover, too. Now everybody knows that I'm actually a SuperSpyUndercover Marriott Agent sent to infiltrate TUG to try to combat the incessant anti-developer sentiment found here. Don't suppose I can convince you to keep a lid on things, huh?

Look. This argument is getting stupid. I don't have any reason other than it's the truth to say that I have had good experiences with one Marriott sales rep who has never misrepresented the product to me. She is my only frame of reference because she is the only sales rep I've ever dealt with. My ownership has worked as she led me to expect it would, exactly as it's supported by the contracts. And that's what I consider important.

Some other people have obviously had different experiences and expectations - I don't expect them to agree with me. But I also don't expect to be accused of ulterior motives or lying or being stupid or having something wrong with me. (All of which have been said at one time or another here about the few on TUG who are happy, satisfied developer-direct Marriott customers.) Why is that so difficult for some to resist? What possible difference does it make if I believe that Marriott has not treated me badly as a customer? How does it bolster your argument to insist that I recognize some phantom non-contractual moral responsibility that you think Marriott owes to MVCI owners?

Why are you always so sure it is a "phantom non contractual moral responsibility" You don't know that and you don't have one single argument above except ranting about what others have called you. I'm truly glad you have had a good experience ( I mean it) and no one is saying all Marriott personnel distort the truth or outright lie but the preponderance of comments suggest that promises have been made concerning owner rights (voting etc). Anyone in our position should understand we are in this together and Marriott can do these things because we don't stick together. I have no doubt they will divide and conquer us because of attitudes like yours. That is not meant to be condescending just a frustration of your unwillingness to recognize the vast majority of user experiences or you just dismiss them because your rep is fantastic. Your Rep does not make policy and you cannot count on her to defend your rights. Your examples above where you isolate (1) or (2) instances the policies might work for you while ignoring the circumstances of so many is why I singled you out.
Marriott taking over the votes mean they now have complete control of our boards and therefore our pocketbooks and we will be defenseless to stop the onslaught. So answer this please. Were you told by your rep in one form or another that the once the development was finished Marriott would turn over all voting rights to the owners and they would just service the development? I have not met a single owner whose purchase rights were not described in this manner.

 

[DanCali]

The one fee rather than multiple little fees is definitely a benefit but let's not lose sight of the fact that at least one of those fees, the lock off, was excessive. Did it really cost more and 2 minutes of a reps time to do this function yet it cost $75.

No offense, but who are you (not just RandR, but a bunch of people) kidding when you say "no lockoff fees?" Please don't be naive.

Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.

Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):

MOC IV Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2700 + 3850 = 6550
MOC IV 2BR Feb 18: 5675

Difference: 875 points ($437 "lockoff fee")


MGV Studio + 2BR Feb 25: 1575 + 3175 = 4750
MGV 3BR Feb 25: 4225

Difference: 525 points ($262 "lockoff fee")

Timberlodge Studio + 1BR Feb 18: 2675 + 3675 = 6350
Timberlodge 2BR Feb 18: 5675

Difference: 675 points ($337 "lockoff fee")

Timberlodge Studio + 2BR Jan 7: 1950 + 4225 = 6175
Timberlodge 3BR Jan 7: 5225

Difference: 950 points ($475 "lockoff fee")

To be fair, there are a few select weeks where a 3BR Timberlodge is worth more than a studio + a 2BR, but that's the exception at that resort as well as in the entire system.

For the owners who were willing to pay me $400 for 800 points should I convert, I assume you value a point at more than $0.50, so feel free to use your own conversion rate to see what the lockoff fees truly are.

 

[sparty]

How about all the Marriott sales folks who said resale buyers would be locked out of the new program and you should buy ASAP directly from marriott before the program goes into place?

Also - isn't there a history of skimming with MRP - I only got 100K pts but it required 125K PTS for the same resort/week/size.. Fair comparison to vacation points?

 

[hotcoffee]

We know the documents read differently. It's the documents that count.

I was able to verify with a different Marriott rep that the first one (actually, 2nd one) I talked to yesterday was giving me misinformation about the 10 month reservations. This one confirmed what is being posted here. It is 13 months for premier members and 12 for everyone else.

I've also posed the question about available inventory should participation be less than expected. They insist that they will have enough inventory regardless of how well it is received. Hmmmm. Okay. Maybe so.

 

[SueDonJ]

[/B]
Why are you always so sure it is a "phantom non contractual moral responsibility" You don't know that and you don't have one single argument above except ranting about what others have called you. I'm truly glad you have had a good experience ( I mean it) and no one is saying all Marriott personnel distort the truth or outright lie but the preponderance of comments suggest that promises have been made concerning owner rights (voting etc). Anyone in our position should understand we are in this together and Marriott can do these things because we don't stick together. I have no doubt they will divide and conquer us because of attitudes like yours. That is not meant to be condescending just a frustration of your unwillingness to recognize the vast majority of user experiences or you just dismiss them because your rep is fantastic. Your Rep does not make policy and you cannot count on her to defend your rights. Your examples above where you isolate (1) or (2) instances the policies might work for you while ignoring the circumstances of so many is why I singled you out.
Marriott taking over the votes mean they now have complete control of our boards and therefore our pocketbooks and we will be defenseless to stop the onslaught. So answer this please. Were you told by your rep in one form or another that the once the development was finished Marriott would turn over all voting rights to the owners and they would just service the development? I have not met a single owner whose purchase rights were not described in this manner.

Maybe you think Marriott is obligated to a "phantom non-contractual moral responsibility." I can't find any such things in my governing docs so I don't believe it exists.

No, I wasn't told any such thing about voting rights by my sales rep because I didn't ask her the question! I don't understand why anybody expects the sales reps to know the answers to half the questions that get asked! We went in there with a Timeshare Resales magazine and armed with info from reading TUG. I knew that for the most part the sales reps don't have complete, in-depth knowledge of how the product they're selling actually works, and she knew that we weren't pushovers. (Over the years I've learned that she has more knowledge than we gave her credit for, because she's also an owner, but that's neither here nor there.) Is that why my experience is so much different than most on TUG? Maybe. But I think it's more that some TUGgers expect too much - they expect Marriott to be this great benevolent being who will hold their hand and guide them through every step of timeshare ownership so that they can get the absolute MOST out of their purchase, while at the same time Marriott will have a hands-off approach for any material issue affecting the resorts with their name on them. That's not how it works. It's a contractual relationship that gives each party obligations and benefits.

Marriott's responsibility to owners is to make the governing docs available for review during a rescission period. They do that. A buyer's responsibility is to make sure that they know what they're buying, whether it's by reading the docs furnished by Marriott with a direct purchase or by the seller with an external resale purchase. I'd guess that every external resale Contract for Purchase includes a stipulation that the underlying governing docs of the interval transfer with the sale. It doesn't make any sense to me that anybody would sign such a contract without making sure that they've gotten or can get their hands on those docs. But apparently a great many do.

 

[Dean]

Steveg11,

Good question. Here's a clean example.

Let's say, I want to go to Ko Olina, and an owner from Ko Olina wants to come to Waiohai. We both have OV, and like-for-like should get us OV. Here are the numbers:

I get 5075 for my Waiohai week, but have to pay 5725-6025 for most Ko Olina weeks

He/she gets 4975 points for the Ko Olina week (that I have to pay 5725-6025 to reserve) and has to pay 5875-6175 for most Waiohai weeks (which I received 5075 for)

Between those two, there could be almost 2000 points lost for owners in a transaction that used to be equal.

Now, there are some low season weeks that will not require as many points, but even in those cases, the person trading to Waiohai is short points, and I am relegated to get weeks I don't want to use without finding points elsewhere.

You could reserve and use, rent, exchange privately, exchange through II or exchange through an independent; all without any loss whatsoever.

This is specifically stated to be subject to change. Premiere is to be no more than 20% of owners, and premiere plus no more than 5% of owners. The 6500 and 13000 levels are stated to be "initial" levels based on estimated point ownership distributions.

Over time, the amount of points required to qualify for these levels are likely to increase.

To me that's a good thing. Truth is they could take it away, create additional levels or scrap the entire program at some point if they wanted.

Jim, why do you think it is such a great deal for resale owners? I own 1 week which means I have to pay $1495 to join this program. What do I gain? From what I can tell the only thing I gain (that is different from a direct buyer) is the ability to trade for MRP. But, I don't care about that at all. My wife travels a lot so I get plenty of them. Plus, I never thought it made sense, in my case, to trade for them anyway.

So let's see, I used to be able to lock off my 2bd, get two weeks in high season and now I would have to pay $1495 to do exactly, at best, what I was able to do before. But hey at least I can trade for MRP.

It may not be a good deal for you. Here's my situation. I own 9 weeks, only one of which is retail and only 3 of which (2 bought none Marriott) is currently eligible for MR points, not that points are a big deal to us, it's just options. My total cost for the weeks is somewhere around $90K. Had I bought retail at around the same time, my total cost would have been somewhere in the $250K range. IF I decide to participate I'd rather have the $90K plus $1495 than the $250K even for free. It doesn't seem to me that those with a single week are going to be in a good situation for converting unless they have a week that gets them very high points that they plan to trade mostly. Even then, it likely only makes sense if view type and top end choices are what's most important. Still, renting out and renting from another owner might be best for many situations.

You are a lawyer so please don't be offended, but just because a company might legally get away with misrepresenting what they are selling by using a legally binding contract when the sale is made, that doesn't make it RIGHT. I can't believe so many say well they do lie often in the sales presentations, but I still think Marriott is a reputable company and I have no problem buying retail directly from them. How can anyone condone the use of lies and misrepresentation by Marriott to sell their product and then say but it's OK because you do find out what you REALLY legally get if you sort through the lengthy legal contract AFTER you buy (they won't give you a blank contract to take home and study because I tried). There are a lot of things that are legal that aren't moral or right, and the way Marriott (and most timeshare developers) markets their products might be legal, but it isn't moral or right IMO.

Nature of the beast I'm afraid. If one can't separate out the verbal from the written and the sales from the usage, I think it is unreasonable to participate at all. In addition, using words like right and fair is very shaky with timeshares, to me, all they really have to do is give me the written info and be within the laws involved. The rest is more emotional than anything else and that makes it VERY subjective.

As a couple noted a page or 2 ago, there has always been an inequality of trading with some winning and some losing. I'm been a winner and I do like that but it isn't written that it has to stay that way. Trading a studio (even Maui) to a 3 BR (even GV) has never been a reasonable option in my book other than short notice when it might otherwise got to waste.

It's the single week owner who now has to buy 1,000 points and pay $400 in new points MFs (in addition to $165) that I really feel for, all because they were skimmed on what their unit was worth.

But that's just it, no one has to do this. Not to do what they did before and not to trade. The only way they might want to do this is if they wanted other options that the system offers, their choice.

Can you please point to another (comparable) system that has breakage? I own at Starwood, Hyatt and Hilton and none have breakage. Thanks.

DVC does. EVERY unit not reserved at 2 months out is theirs. If it's rented, the proceeds minus rental commissions are applied to maint fees up to 2.5% of the budget, after that, it's profit for Disney.

How about it being more difficult to get a decent week at your home resort? Does that not count as being harmed, because to me, that's huge! I can't see how this new system will not impact reserving your week at your home resort unless you are a premier/premier plus owner.

Do you believe it will have no impact on reserving at your home resort?

edited to add: So, I may not be able to get any decent trades, because Marriott may raid weeks in the system, and I most likely won't be able to reserve a decent week to use at my home resort......How much worse can it get?

Marriott = The Grinch That Stole Christmas! LOL

Marriott controls the reservation system. Given that those reserving weeks are only competing with others reserving weeks, it's really not an issue. The only issue is if you're trading by trying to use points to reserve other resorts, other times, additional units, etc. This is first and foremost an exchange program and not a primary usage system. The one's who are going to be at a disadvantage are those that only own points.

What a Marriott rep told yesterday is that premier owners can reserve (exchange?) 12 months out, but the peons can only do 10 months.

Comments on this?

My understanding is that Premier Plus owners can reserve any number of nights at 13 months out but for less than 7 nights EVERYONE else is 10 months out.

 

[JMAESD84]

Never owned Marriott

An impartial opinion regarding this new system.

The new system will significantly reduce the external resale value and effective yield to any current owner wishing to leave the Marriott "family".

Lower priced external sales will be harvested for much of the inventory needs through ROFR. Internal approved broker sales will become a larger profit center. In either case, exiting owner will yield much less.

The "family" of converts will see steady and painful escalation of costs. Why not you've been captured.

Marriott will have greater sway with all HOA decisions and fees with the added voting rights obtained.

Points systems are a lot of fun and very flexible. Having a huge number of points is a nice advantage. Enjoy it if you choose to join, but expect to pay more to play and to receive far less when you decide to walk away.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Anyone in our position should understand we are in this together and Marriott can do these things because we don't stick together. I have no doubt they will divide and conquer us because of attitudes like yours. ...

This is the least beneficial thing that should be said while we are ALL trying to figure this out together here on TUG. None of us should be made to feel like our choice to enroll or not in Points should be based upon anything other than whether or not it enhances our individual ownerships. For some people it comes down simply to how we use our timeshares, for some the way we feel Marriott is treating us is as important, for some it's a combination. No one person's choice is the right or wrong one.

 

[edge4414]

Maybe you think Marriott is obligated to a "phantom non-contractual moral responsibility." I can't find any such things in my governing docs so I don't believe it exists.

No, I wasn't told any such thing about voting rights by my sales rep because I didn't ask her the question! I don't understand why anybody expects the sales reps to know the answers to half the questions that get asked! We went in there with a Timeshare Resales magazine and armed with info from reading TUG. I knew that for the most part the sales reps don't have complete, in-depth knowledge of how the product they're selling actually works, and she knew that we weren't pushovers. (Over the years I've learned that she has more knowledge than we gave her credit for, because she's also an owner, but that's neither here nor there.) Is that why my experience is so much different than most on TUG? Maybe. But I think it's more that some TUGgers expect too much - they expect Marriott to be this great benevolent being who will hold their hand and guide them through every step of timeshare ownership so that they can get the absolute MOST out of their purchase. That's not how it works. It's a contractual relationship that gives each party obligations and benefits.

Marriott's responsibility to owners is to make the governing docs available for review during a rescission period. They do that. A buyer's responsibility is to make sure that they know what they're buying, whether it's by reading the docs furnished by Marriott with a direct purchase or by the seller with an external resale purchase. I'd guess that every external resale Contract for Purchase includes a stipulation that the underlying governing docs of the interval transfer with the sale. It doesn't make any sense to me that anybody would sign such a contract without making sure that they've gotten or can get their hands on those docs. But apparently a great many do.

Sue

I don't want to go back and forth so I will quit here but I believe our Docs cover voting rights and if not stated "implied" that the owners would own and therefore vote 100%. Again I hate to repeat but verbal promises/contracts and implied warranties have been proven valid in court over and over. Why do you ignore this? I am not a lawyer and don't know if Marriott has this covered another way but it certainly can't be outright dismissed as folly as you try to do. Furthermore, Marriott's normal operating procedure in their Hotel business is a similar format and could probably be used to show the original "implied" intent. I don't know the exact number but approx. 95% of Marriott hotels are not owned by Marriott but are owned outright by a private business in contract with Marriott to utilize their name and Hotel management resources. Obviously there is a contract with T&C's that have to be followed, but clearly the argument is much stronger that Marriott is a hotel and timeshare management company first and sometimes owner.

 

[CA Richard]

Another Happy Camper!

I enrolled all my weeks and the more I see the flexibility. The more I love it.
I may be one of the few on the board that think the points program is plus for owners.

Brenda, I'm glad to see someone else thinks this is great! I will be enrolling all my weeks (5, mixed developer and resale) shortly as well. My wife is thrilled! This suddenly makes it feel like we own the entire system instead of just our home resorts and she is already looking more seriously at other resorts we can book now without having to request a trade and waiting 8 months to find out if it is going to go through. Sometimes we got what we wanted, but so many times it was just not worth the trouble.

Trading with II was always a pain. And we, like you Brenda, were frequently checking out of a week reservation a day or two early for various reasons, sometimes just to have a day or two at home before going back to work. Now we can book exactly the number of days we want in the type of unit we want.

We have a 2BR EOY in Ko Olina, which we usually locked off and spent a week in the lockoff and a week in the 1BR. The lockoff was a mediocre experience at best for a week and we hated having to move in the middle of the vacation. We are already thinking forward to trying to get a 1 BR for the entire trip next year with the points system, maybe for 12 days if that's exactly what we need.

Perhaps a 5-night Sun-Thurs stay at a new resort we haven't tried before would make another good trip, and at a bargain number of points! Other times I'm sure we will just stay at one of our home resorts for a week without trading for points.

I know TUG is made up of a lot of people who have made a great effort to get as much as they can for as little as they have to spend. My frugal side applauds them. I understand that this sharing and maximizing benefits is, in fact, one of the primary purposes of this board. Those willing to put in the time playing the games with II, trades, AC's, etc., could reap some great rewards. That appears to me to be at the heart of the negative reaction on TUG.

But sometimes we forget that this is supposed to be vacation and enjoyment, and for some of us, the flexibility associated with getting exactly what we want when we want it has a great deal of value as well, even if there is a little additional monetary cost or points associated with that. As some others have said, TUG members are not necessarily representative of the majority of Marriott owners. I, for one applaud the direction they have taken.

Certainly there are lost opprtunities to "trade up" and "get something for nothing" in the new system vs the old. That's a tough pill to swallow when so much attention and effort has been placed on doing just that on this board. (Of course, as others have said, there is always a loser somewhere in the system for every winner.) I have to believe there will still be plenty of opportunities to maximize one's usage in the new program as well. Once people get beyond focusing on what they have lost, I believe we'll all be on here trying to figure out how to get the most out of the new system!

 

[bobpark56]

If I were to join today ($595) and pay the annual fee ($165), to what period would this fee apply? I.e., when would I have to pay next year's fee?

Or...to say this another way...if I have already traded my 2010 week, is there any reason to join the new program before the end of 2010?

 

[jerseygirl]

DVC does. EVERY unit not reserved at 2 months out is theirs. If it's rented, the proceeds minus rental commissions are applied to maint fees up to 2.5% of the budget, after that, it's profit for Disney.

Dean -- thanks for responding but I think we're talking apples and oranges. Just about every state timeshare statute permits developers/managers to rent unreserved inventory at the 60-day mark -- they all do it. That's not the same as giving the owners 4500 (average) to trade out, and charging other club members 5000 (average) to trade in (the "skim" or "breakage"). As an owner, I'm 100% sure that Hilton, Hyatt and Starwood don't do it (i.e., points out = points in). I don't think Disney does it ... but since I'm not an owner, I can't be sure.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue

I don't want to go back and forth so I will quit here but I believe our Docs cover voting rights and if not stated "implied" that the owners would own and therefore vote 100%. Again I hate to repeat but verbal promises/contracts and implied warranties have been proven valid in court over and over. Why do you ignore this? I am not a lawyer and don't know if Marriott has this covered another way but it certainly can't be outright dismissed as folly as you try to do. Furthermore, Marriott's normal operating procedure in their Hotel business is a similar format and could probably be used to show the original "implied" intent. I don't know the exact number but approx. 95% of Marriott hotels are not owned by Marriott but are owned outright by a private business in contract with Marriott to utilize their name and Hotel management resources. Obviously there is a contract with T&C's that have to be followed, but clearly the argument is much stronger that Marriott is a hotel and timeshare management company first and sometimes owner.

I also don't want to continue this but I'm going to, just to say that if you believe that the governing docs give owners 100% of the rights to control the resorts through voting, you either haven't read the docs or you don't understand them. I'm not a lawyer either but that is made so clear in the docs that it doesn't take a lawyer to understand it.

Others, some who are lawyers, have posted here why your belief that "implied" terms can be enforced is wrong as well. I agree with them based on ten years of being a lowly secretary in a law office, but I appreciate that they've contributed their expertise to the thread.

It really is helpful to have the docs no matter what you think of Marriott. And every owner can get them by calling Owner Services to ask for the "Public Offering Statement" for the resort(s) owned. (If they don't know what you're talking about, ask for a copy of the Timeshare Declaration, Master Deed and Management Agreement or similar documents given to every new owner.) There may be a minimal fee, especially for weeks purchased on the external resale market, but it's well worth the investment.

And now you can get the last word and bash me one more time for looking at Marriott timeshares so unemotionally if that's what you want. I'm done again.

(Geeze, now I can't talk about breakage or contracts. Pretty soon I'm going to stop myself from talking about anything or to anyone on TUG. It's a good thing Don's away and doesn't have to listen to me, but I sure feel bad for the dawg.)

 

[SueDonJ]

If I were to join today ($595) and pay the annual fee ($165), to what period would this fee apply? I.e., when would I have to pay next year's fee?

Or...to say this another way...if I have already traded my 2010 week, is there any reason to join the new program before the end of 2010?

It doesn't matter if you join now or anytime before the end of this enrollment period, 12/31/10. The annual Club Dues will cover you through 12/31/11.

Remember, 12/31/10 isn't the deadline for enrolling all existing deeded weeks. After 12/31/10, though, the fees may increase.

 

[Dean]

Dean -- thanks for responding but I think we're talking apples and oranges. Just about every state timeshare statute permits developers/managers to rent unreserved inventory at the 60-day mark -- they all do it. That's not the same as giving the owners 4500 (average) to trade out, and charging other club members 5000 (average) to trade in (the "skim" or "breakage"). As an owner, I'm 100% sure that Hilton, Hyatt and Starwood don't do it (i.e., points out = points in). I don't think Disney does it ... but since I'm not an owner, I can't be sure.

DVC has the right to anticipate breakage inventory out to the 11 month reservation window. I'm not convinced that there will be any windfall to Marriott with the new system though I know some are.

 

[DanCali]

I know TUG is made up of a lot of people who have made a great effort to get as much as they can for as little as they have to spend. My frugal side applauds them. I understand that this sharing and maximizing benefits is, in fact, one of the primary purposes of this board. Those willing to put in the time playing the games with II, trades, AC's, etc., could reap some great rewards. That appears to me to be at the heart of the negative reaction on TUG.

But sometimes we forget that this is supposed to be vacation and enjoyment, and for some of us, the flexibility associated with getting exactly what we want when we want it has a great deal of value as well, even if there is a little additional monetary cost or points associated with that.

If you wanted the flexibility of points, why did you buy Marriott? Why not Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt, or a combinationof these?

400,000+ owners bought into Marriott with the understanding it was a weeks system. Most were very happy, despite the limitations of II. I can tell you that I was a Starwood owner before I was a Marriott owner. I bought into a weeks system that people were happy with and raved about it. Starwood, on the other hand, is notorious for its anti owner policies. As someone quite familiar with both systems, I can categorically say that terms offered to Marriott in the points program are by far more Draconian than many of the things Starwood did to owners.

I thought diversifying to Marriott was a good idea... I'm actually happy now that I also own Starwood and if I dump any of my weeks, the Marriott ones will be the first to go.

 

[Bunk]

Some of the Marriott apologists on the board are inclined to blame the legacy owners for relying on the explanations of Marriott’s sales staff over the past 20 + years as to how the system would work. The apologists, ignoring the fact that the sales staff was well trained by Marriott in what to say, suggest that we should have ignored what the sales staff was telling us because there statements were not in writing and were not binding contracts.

I submit the apologists miss the point. The new system is worse than the system that we were induced to purchase in several ways, including the following:

1. We were told we would be able to do exchanges of similar units throughout the Marriott system, subject to availability. By skimming the points and messing around with the availability of the units, Marriott has interfered with our ability to make those types of exchanges.
2. We were told that one reason we should buy a Marriott timeshare was that the ability to obtain Marriott reward points was a valuable asset. At the time I purchased, it was very valuable. I can bank 105,000 rewards points for my unit. When I bought, that amount of points was enough to rent my timeshare for a week. Several years ago, in a precursor to this latest skim, Marriott inflated the points it would charge for my unit by 50%, yet continued to give me the same amount of points. In sum, it devalued my rewards points by 50%. So the value of my rewards was reduced from a week at a timeshare to 5 days at a Courtyard!
3. We were told that there was real value in buying from Marriott as opposed to buying at resale. The new system shows that representation was as hollow as the others.

I’ve had several conversations with Marriott’s representatives about this new system. They acknowledge to me that the dream of timeshare ownership that induced many of us to buy Marriott timeshares is much better than the reality of the new system. One representative candidly told me that he thought that Marriott’s devaluation of the rewards points was even worse than the new system it just designed.

Those representatives, who included supervisors and point specialists, have also acknowledged to me that Marriott could have devised a new system that charged us a premium when we wanted flexibility, such as reserving less than a week, without having to universally skim points from us on week to week exchanges. So even the Marriott representatives on the phone are unable to give a legitimate explanation for the skim, other than that Marriott has the legal right to do it.

Whether or not you agree that Marriott’s conduct in skimming points amounts to theft, I think we should all be able to agree that Marriott has presented itself to the public and to us as an honest and ethical company, and that one of the reasons that many of us spent so much money buying Marriott timeshares is because we believed that we were dealing with an honest and ethical company. The important issue is whether Marriott is treating us in a fair and ethical way. The anger and hurt that many of us are expressing are based on our disappointment when we finally realized that Marriott is acting no better than its competitors, and in a lot of ways, is acting worse. As a result, the argument that Marriott is not technically acting in a criminal way and is not technically committing theft is irrelevant; the company has been harmed immensely when the strongest argument its supporters can come up with is that it has technically not committed theft or that we were naive because we believe its sales staff was telling the truth.

Marriott’s treatment of the legacy owners may turn out to be extremely shortsighted. It has created an unwieldy system that will be hard to sell on economic grounds, and will be even harder to sell when the legacy owners tell the new owners how they’ve been treated. Why would any one invest significant money in the new system once that person learns that the rules can and will change whenever it is in Marriott’s interest to do so? I also think it will be difficult for Marriott to retain some of its prior sales force who are being called upon to ignore the fact that what they told the legacy owners for 20 years turned out to be pie in the sky.

 

[tombo]

Boy are you hung up on this. Yes we know you don't like the system. I respect your opinion and right to say so (maybe not over and over ), but come on, calling Marriott "theives", "con men", etc is way over the top.

If you have a $100 worth 10000 pennies and you open a checking account in a regular bank and do nothing for two years, I bet when you go to withdrawal that 10000 pennies you only have 8000-9000 left if you're lucky. Would you call that bank a bunch of theives?

It's the price of doing business and no one said that you had to deposit that $100 bucks into that bank in the 1st place. You could have deposited it in a Credit Union and not lost anything...

So please tone it down some. Not all of us feel like we are getting ripped off...

Y-ASK

If my bank charged me secret hidden fees while proclaiming that all checking and other services were free, you can bet your house I would call them a crooked organization! My bank tells me what checking account fees there are if any up front, I don't have to search web sites to find out about their secret hidden fees. My bank tells me what the minimum savings account and checking account balances are that are needed to avoid any fees or charges up front without needing to have my attorney present to read the fine print. If they did not act in a professional manner regarding their services and fees I would not do business with them. If your bank or credit union hides fees and charges from you I suggest that you change financial institutions because there are plenty of honest above board banks and credit unions out there. That is the type of organization I give my business and hard earned money to.

Let me exchange Marriott for a credit card company. If you got an e-mail or phone call announcing a new credit card wit no interest charges ever. If you called them and they said for $1495 you buy the new credit card and then you pay an annual fee of $165 per year and that's it. No interest charges no matter how many transactions you make up to the limit on the card they assigned you. Then after you sign up and read the fine print you find out that the credit card company charges you 7% to 13% every time you use your card. if you called them up and they said well we have to make money somehow so we have some hidden charges in place called brokerages, other credit card companies charge brokerages too, it is in the fine print by the way. Whether you actually purchased the card or not would you feel that they were a company you want to do business with when they HID THE FEES while claiming that the new card had no charges, only an annual fee?

Marriott did this to everyone when they rolled out the program. Please search though Marriott's FAQ's and find where they disclose to consumers that they skim, steal, or charge breakage points for profit or any other reason. Find in their disclosure where they explain that their "breakage "fees could case owners to not be able to trade like for like weeks or cause them to not get the full value of their week in points annually. Please look hard in the fine print and see how Marriott disclosed this fee, if at all.

Marriott said pay us $1495 plus $165 a year and you will never pay exchange fees or lock-off fees. In fact Marriott's hidden "breakage" costs for exchanging and locking off units is more expensive in most cases than exchanging and locking off through II. That is deceptive minimum, fraudulent possibly, and either way they have sunk to a very low level promising no fees while actually charging more than II without disclosing those expenses.

 

[Werner Weiss]

Or...to say this another way...if I have already traded my 2010 week, is there any reason to join the new program before the end of 2010?

The other possible reason to enroll sooner rather than later is the bonus offer:

"For a limited time, receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints when you enroll!"
​

We don't know the "limited time" is.

 

[Numismatist]

The other possible reason to enroll sooner rather than later is the bonus offer:

"For a limited time, receive 800 Vacation Club PlusPoints when you enroll!"
​

We don't know the "limited time" is.

Only problem for me is that I planned on going to my home resort 2011, so I can't use those nice 800 points before they expire...

 

[steveg11]

Before you say it, yes you can stay in your home resort during use year without using points, but if you want to bank your points this years so that you can have 2 units to bring family/friends next year, you won't have enough points to reserve exactly what you deposited. So to book an identical week to what you deposited at your home resort on a non use year you will have to borrow future points or buy more points.

Unless you book and deposit this year's week in II and trade for the week you want next year. Then you can add the year 2 reservation in front or behind the week you traded for. It can be done.

So let me get this straight. I can still reserve and deposit my week with II. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can bank that week in my II account for a couple of years if I want. Let's see that is exactly what I could do before. And I can trade for the same number of Marriott Rewards points as I could before. Let's see that's.... And I can reserve the size and view that I own in the season that I own at my home resort. Let's see that's.... And I can do all of these as long as I am willing to stay for exactly seven days and can live with some uncertainty as to what I can get in exchange via II or if I can get anything at all. But if I spend $595 (or in my case $1495) then I can reduce the fees that I pay, make just one call to reserve anywhere, any size, any view, any length of vacation and know exactly what it will cost in points and know with certainty where and when I am going before I hang up the phone, and I can bank or borrow points in flexible amounts if I choose to do so in any given year, which I was never able to do before, and that amounts to skimming?
Ok, then. Skim me some more, please.

 

[Werner Weiss]

Only problem for me is that I planned on going to my home resort 2011, so I can't use those nice 800 points before they expire...

As someone who lives on the "Coast of Maine," how about a few days in Boston at Marriott's Custom House? In the winter, you could get four weekday nights at 200 nights each. Or you could get a shorter stay at another time.

 

[Numismatist]

As someone who lives on the "Coast of Maine," how about a few days in Boston at Marriott's Custom House? In the winter, you could get four weekday nights at 200 nights each. Or you could get a shorter stay at another time.

There you go! My glass is half full now!:whoopie: