Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[5infam]

I am suggesting points, yes, because I wouldn't want to rely on II working the same way as it has in the past for you. MOC summer weeks are high demand, aren't they? There's a good possibility that those deposits will be scooped for points exchange requests which would severely affect your typical usage of trading back in. If you enroll in points you won't be able to to do your every-other-year two-week trip at your home resort, that's for sure, but I'm not sure that you can count on it continuing either if you don't enroll. At least if you do enroll, you open up possibilities for new vacation ideas. If you don't enroll and what we're expecting with II happens, what will you do with your one MOC week? (If the answer to that is reserve it like usual and go every year, then enrolling isn't what you should do.)

I sure do hope somebody else comes in here to answer your questions, too. It's important to get a few different perspectives when you have doubts or concerns.

And don't worry, Frank, we don't all fight with everyone all of the time. Ask away, and hopefully we can help you figure out what's best for you.

Thanks for trying Sue, I do appreciate you taking the time to post.

I was hoping to get some clarity on my specific situation, but it does not look like the logic of the points proponents works for me; so far anyway. Most of you seem to have multiple weeks, so you can at least save fees with the lock offs, and exchanges and such. Me, with my 1 week, wanting to trade in for my exact same week in my same resort, with some sort of home resort priority appears to be gone whether I join points or not. So in essence, I just have to sit on the sidelines and wait and see if Marriott clarifies things in writing or not before the deadline to join.

I could see where if I sold my timeshare later, and I had the points option, that the buyer could join points for like $2,000 - so that MAY be a plus down the road, but who knows.

I am starting to think otherwise though. I bought resale knowing I could not get Marriott Rewards Points. I did the math, and for what I pay in maintenance fees in Hawaii, it did not make sense to trade my week in for points, ever. So I saved 50% of retail and bought resale and have been happy. Now, let's say I pay $1,495 and the annual fee of $165, and the points program deteriorates even further like the rewards program - meaning I will get the same number of points, but the point costs to stay anywhere goes up and up. At some point, I will never trade in for points, and thus I wasted the $1,495 and membership dues. I am really starting to think that even right now, I would not trade in for points due to the defecit in points received vs. cost of like week. So, in essence, I would just be buying in to have an option I would probably never use - but may or may not need based on how Marriott decides to play with the system and the unknown of how they can play with the system?

I guess I will sit on the sidelines further until some smarter Tugger than me figures out what all this REALLY means.

 

[catharsis]

Maintenance fees.

Some of the 'marriott apologists' (please note the quotes) have suggested that Marriott have increased costs as a result of increased cleaning etc. and hence HAVE to 'skim' points to make up for this 'cost' - which is I believe a misreading of the facts.

Could someone answer a couple of questions for me please? (probably simplest if one explains based upon the case of any of the fully-sold-out resorts)

1. Do the existing owners pay 100% of the costs of maintaining and running their resorts - which includes all cleaning etc by way of their maintenance fees? (I believe the accounts can be reviewed - is Marriott Inc making a contribution I was not aware of?)

2. Will the existing owners continue to pay all of these fees under the new scheme or will Marriott Inc start making a contribution? (i.e What happens to a resort which is now more heavily-used than before from external users while the existing owners continue to pay 100% of the existing MF's)

3. Do the existing owners in fact PAY Marriott a substantial fee to service and manage the resort?


I just think the answers might be illuminating - I understand what I believe the answers are likely to be, but perhaps an attorney or lawyer could interpret?


P.S. ) - WHERE ARE THE MF's ASSOCIATED WITH NEW MEMBERS GOING? - if the estimate of 7% 'skim' is accurate does that mean marriot have now gained the ability to sell an extra 7% of inventory and pocket the MF's relating to such sales as a 'windfall?

Just thinking aloud - but the 'assumptions' underlying ability to sell related to equivalence of points to weeks - now I wonder whether the equivalence is based upon points required or points granted?

 

[5infam]

option 1) You call at 12 months, reserve the highest demand week possible, rent it out, then rent two weeks in smaller units from other owners.

option 2) You call at 12 months, reserve the highest demand week possible, deposit in II, and do a 2 for 1 trade.

option 3) Sell your MOC, but a Westin Kaanapali resale with 148K Starwood Options, then call with home resort priority up to 8 months ahead and book a 1BR for 81K Options and a studio for 67K options.

The Marriott points system won't help your cause with any of these options.

I like option #3, but I don't think I can sell my unit and buy at the Westin without putting a lot more money into the thing. I always use the beach in front of the Westin anyway as it is sandy and not rocky like the Marriott, and there is actually sand to lay out on, etc.. Although my kids love the slide at the Marriott, so there you go.

If you know a good way to do that, without backing up the money truck, then let me know, I am all ears!!

 

[tombo]

I guess I will sit on the sidelines further until some smarter Tugger than me figures out what all this REALLY means.

You already figured it all out yourself. Re-read your post. Your feelings are correct.

 

[5infam]

Thanks Tombo - but I know my statement was a hopefull one at best. I am hoping that maybe we jumped overboard, and there really is 2 buckets of availability, weeks people and points people; or that maybe they will change this system in some way. Their written communication is so vague at this point, I have to agree with your side of things. But, I am holding out that we are wrong, and maybe there is something to this that I am missing.

Until then, the $1,495 sits in my account earning interest

 

[SueDonJ]

Did you find that in writing. If dealing with Marriott has taught me anything it is no matter what you are told or promised, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't count.

Did you? Honestly, I haven't even looked for it because of what I know from other systems. Like I said, I'd find it very hard to believe that Marriott has figured out how to do legally what is illegal for every other point system to do. They'd all LOVE it. Nope, this time the burden's on you, Tombo - you're the only one making this assertion, you need to back it up.

You know, speaking about re-allocation and DVC, two years ago and for two years in a row (because of percentage limits per year) Disney did a major re-allocation across the board for all DVC resorts which for the most part was not happily received by DVC owners. In many cases it resulted in owners no longer being able to book the same vacation they'd been used to booking for years, and some of them didn't have extra points to make the adjustment. They'd reviewed the existing points charts to determine their needs for specific intervals and purchased just that much, and then Disney changed the need. Some had no choice but to add on if they wanted to continue vacationing the same way. Some others changed their vacation habits. And of course, the more fortunate others made out because their point needs were reduced, but it was the unhappy owners who made the most noise (as we would expect, legitimately.) It didn't matter, though - everything was perfectly legal. As much as Disney enjoys an excellent reputation, not all DVC owners are 100% happy with their purchase. If we're going to start comparing and saying things like, "can you imagine Disney doing something like this?", we need to be aware that sometimes the answer will be yes.

Point re-allocations are a major concern. I'm not trying to say they're not, or that you're wrong for bringing up the possibility for everyone to think about. But they're not the same as the point devaluation you're threatening, not by a long shot.

 

[jdking]

Interval Multi Year Subscription

Does anyone know if there is or will be a credit for owners who currently hold multi year subscriptions for Interval?

 

[SueDonJ]

Does anyone know if there is or will be a credit for owners who currently hold multi year subscriptions for Interval?

Somewhere in all these posts and threads some folks have reported that they've been told they will get a credit returned to them or bonus weeks or AC's for the remaining years on their subscriptions. All of them did the enrollment process over the phone. If you go through the enrollment process online it's not mentioned at all in the initial stages, I'm still waiting for the enrollment confirmation and don't know if it will be in that email.

 

[tombo]

Did you? Honestly, I haven't even looked for it because of what I know from other systems. Like I said, I'd find it very hard to believe that Marriott has figured out how to do legally what is illegal for every other point system to do. They'd all LOVE it. Nope, this time the burden's on you, Tombo - you're the only one making this assertion, you need to back it up.

You know, speaking about re-allocation and DVC, two years ago and for two years in a row (because of percentage limits per year) Disney did a major re-allocation across the board for all DVC resorts which for the most part was not happily received by DVC owners. In many cases it resulted in owners no longer being able to book the same vacation they'd been used to booking for years, and some of them didn't have extra points to make the adjustment. They'd reviewed the existing points charts to determine their needs for specific intervals and purchased just that much, and then Disney changed the need. Some had no choice but to add on if they wanted to continue vacationing the same way. Some others changed their vacation habits. And of course, the more fortunate others made out because their point needs were reduced, but it was the unhappy owners who made the most noise (as we would expect, legitimately.) It didn't matter, though - everything was perfectly legal. As much as Disney enjoys an excellent reputation, not all DVC owners are 100% happy with their purchase. If we're going to start comparing and saying things like, "can you imagine Disney doing something like this?", we need to be aware that sometimes the answer will be yes.

Point re-allocations are a major concern. I'm not trying to say they're not, or that you're wrong for bringing up the possibility for everyone to think about. But they're not the same as the point devaluation you're threatening, not by a long shot.

I can't believe you of all people are about to convert to points yet haven't read every line of the contract. You are the one who always says don't buy until you have read everything on the contract because in the end that is all you are guaranteed.

Actually I thought you would have it in hand and post it in follow up. I read that they have the rights to change points and I remember for sure based on demand, but I think there was a clause or clauses saying they could change the points for any reason, but I can't swear to it. I know they did a number on many who bought to get rewards ppoints using their rights to change points values. People assumed they would get enough points to reserve what they bought every year, but through the years as ZMarriott devalued rewards points it takes a whole lot more than they give you to reserve your week now. Since they have done it in the past, without written contractual wording prohibiting them from doing it here, it has to be a real concern.

Some of my points are what ifs for sure, but if anyone had said every owner will have 7% to 15% of their points skimmed when they deposit their week into points before this was launched, all would have said they would NEVER do that. DVC doesn't, Starwood doesn't, Hyatt doesn't, Wyndham doesn't, why would you think Marriott would? You are doomsday predicting, the sky s falling, etc. Here the program is and yes they do skim despite no other points company doing the same.

If it is in the contract that they can changes points at any time for any reason and you blindly trust them to treat you right, it is as you say your own fault for expecting them to do what is right when you know they only do what they legally have to. It is definetelly in the contract that they can change points values based on demand, and that is good enough for me to not trust the points value you purchase to be of similar value years down the road. Unless you can find verbage from Marriott assuring your points value to keep up with points inflation and to be worth equivalent value in the future to what it is worth when you buy, then you have to assume they will devalue what you buy as they have done in the past because nothing is in the contract to stop them from reducing the value of the points you buy.

 

[catharsis]

I see you didn't find the language. Or did you forget to put the link here?

They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change. Yep, it's right there on the chart itself. But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating. They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar. They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.

Sue

you have made this assertion on a number of occasions - and i would have assumed that this was correct before the launch of the new program - but in fact I cannot find any language which states that the total number of points required to book the entire marriott inventory for the entire year cannot be increased - in point of fact there is a specific statement to the effect that points values can be changed at any time - but I cannot identify anywhere in the available documents any language documenting this 'constraint' you keep refering to?

Perhaps you could identify where/why the total points required to book all available weeks as an aggregate cannot be increased by Marriott? - repeating the assertion without reference to a documented source while requesting others refer you to source documents to prove THEIR assertions would see a little one-sided?

 

[SueDonJ]

I can't believe you of all people are about to convert to points yet haven't read every line of the contract. You are the one who always says don't buy until you have read everything on the contract because in the end that is all you are guaranteed.

Actually I thought you would have it in hand and post it in follow up. I read that they have the rights to change points and I remember for sure based on demand, but I think there was a clause or clauses saying they could change the points for any reason, but I can't swear to it. I know they did a number on many who bought to get rewards ppoints using their rights to change points values. People assumed they would get enough points to reserve what they bought every year, but through the years as ZMarriott devalued rewards points it takes a whole lot more than they give you to reserve your week now. Since they have done it in the past, without written contractual wording prohibiting them from doing it here, it has to be a real concern.

Some of my points are what ifs for sure, but if anyone had said every owner will have 7% to 15% of their points skimmed when they deposit their week into points before this was launched, all would have said they would NEVER do that. DVC doesn't, Starwood doesn't, Hyatt doesn't, Wyndham doesn't, why would you think Marriott would? You are doomsday predictiong, the sky s falling, etc. Here the program is and yes they do skim despite no other points company doing the same. If it is in the contract that they can changes points at any time for any reason and you blindly trust them to treat you right, it is as you say your own fault for expecting them to do what is right when you know they only do what they legally have to.

I'm pretty sure, comfortable enough assuming, that the difference is that the point system established for timeshare inventory is subject to many more legal constraints and requirements than Marriott's reward (lower case intentional) system for valued customers. The inventory in the timeshare system must correlate to the points charts established for its use, although certain allowances can be made for re-allocation on a specified basis. Marriott suffers no maximum limit for the amount of inventory it offers in a reward system and can do whatever it wants to devalue holdings of the members.

But I'll tell you what. If you're still convinced that they can increase values across the points charts willy-nilly whenever they please, find that in the disclosures and send it on. Most of us who have enrolled are still within the rescission period.

 

[tombo]

I'm pretty sure, comfortable enough assuming, that the difference is that the point system established for timeshare inventory is subject to many more legal constraints and requirements than Marriott's reward (lower case intentional) system for valued customers. The inventory in the timeshare system must correlate to the points charts established for its use, although certain allowances can be made for re-allocation on a specified basis. Marriott suffers no maximum limit for the amount of inventory it offers in a reward system and can do whatever it wants to devalue holdings of the members.

But I'll tell you what. If you're still convinced that they can increase values across the points charts willy-nilly whenever they please, find that in the disclosures and send it on. Most of us who have enrolled are still within the rescission period.

Rescind lol. If you convert to points without finding guarantees of your point's value in the contract, don't blame Marriott when they make it where you can't book anything good with your points. It was never their responsibility to coddle your points or protect their value. Marriott only has to do what the contract says they have to. You will as you like to say have no reason to blame Marriott, it will be your own fault for converting with no written guarantees . This is paraphrased from posts you made to me where i was upset that Marriott didn't do what they said they would. Now the shoe is on the other foot, perhaps you need to rescind and re-read the contract yourself.

 

[camachinist]

it was never their responsibility to coddle your points *er, weeks* or protect their value

Shall we purchase bassinets for weeks *and* points now? Ah, nothing like the smell of a new baby.

 

[littlestar]

You know, speaking about re-allocation and DVC, two years ago and for two years in a row (because of percentage limits per year) Disney did a major re-allocation across the board for all DVC resorts which for the most part was not happily received by DVC owners. In many cases it resulted in owners no longer being able to book the same vacation they'd been used to booking for years, and some of them didn't have extra points to make the adjustment. They'd reviewed the existing points charts to determine their needs for specific intervals and purchased just that much, and then Disney changed the need. Some had no choice but to add on if they wanted to continue vacationing the same way. Some others changed their vacation habits. And of course, the more fortunate others made out because their point needs were reduced, but it was the unhappy owners who made the most noise (as we would expect, legitimately.) It didn't matter, though - everything was perfectly legal. As much as Disney enjoys an excellent reputation, not all DVC owners are 100% happy with their purchase. If we're going to start comparing and saying things like, "can you imagine Disney doing something like this?", we need to be aware that sometimes the answer will be yes.

Point re-allocations are a major concern. I'm not trying to say they're not, or that you're wrong for bringing up the possibility for everyone to think about. But they're not the same as the point devaluation you're threatening, not by a long shot.

One thing about Disney reallocating their points, they have to stay within the points allowance for the whole entire year for each specific resort. Simply stated, DVC cannot change the total number of points it would take to reserve every room for every night of the year for a specific DVC resort. By POS, DVC cannot change the nightly points by more than 15% in any one year either. I actually like the changes that DVC did when they readjusted the charts - now it doesn't take practically three times as many points on a weekend and I like that.

I wonder if Marriott has any caps at all like DVC does on what they can do with their point system? Or is it like the Marriott rewards program? Maybe someone who buys points can take a look at the POS and see what it says. I know I wouldn't have purchased our DVC points if there hadn't been some rules about what Disney could and could not do on reallocations. I'll probably sell my Marriott week soon and just rent at Marriott when I want to stay at one of their resorts.

As a further side note, the Marriott rep at II that I talked to the other day told me if I enrolled in the Marriott points program I would have to keep a separate II account for my FWM resort that I trade in II. I don't want to keep two separate II accounts - one for Marriott and one for something else. It's too expensive since I own an EOY Marriott and an EOY FWM week. Since I pretty much use my Marriott week to trade back into Orlando, I question if I really need to even own it anymore. And for the months I travel (off season - September, January, and early May) I don't think owning anything with Marriott is really necessary.

 

[pacheco18]

I can't believe you of all people are about to convert to points yet haven't read every line of the contract.I read that they have the rights to change points and I remember for sure based on demand, but I think there was a clause or clauses saying they could change the points for any reason

For me that is the dealkiller.

 

[DanCali]

I like option #3, but I don't think I can sell my unit and buy at the Westin without putting a lot more money into the thing. I always use the beach in front of the Westin anyway as it is sandy and not rocky like the Marriott, and there is actually sand to lay out on, etc.. Although my kids love the slide at the Marriott, so there you go.

If you know a good way to do that, without backing up the money truck, then let me know, I am all ears!!

You can get WKORV resale for $10K-$20K, depending on view category. Resale prices got decimated due to escalating MFs ($2500 for a 2BR). Check eBay completed auctions... Sometimes if an eBay auction is mislisted (no keyword in title) you can get a steal.

Starwood has a whole other set of problems (see Starwood board), but skimming and home resort priority are not among those.

 

[scrapngen]

For me that is the dealkiller.

Me, too. They have already shown that the points they allocate for my weeks are low. My assumption is that this allocation # will stay the same, since this is only a number for legacy weeks. NO more weeks will be sold, so no reason for Marriott to EVER adjust this value. I assume based on the similar happenings with MR that while my number allocated will stay fixed, the points needed to reserve will continue to be adjusted up overall for "inflation." You may choose to believe that Marriott will adjust BOTH numbers, but I don't see any reason for them to do so, as it won't sell more points and doesn't affect any new sales of points.

 

[dioxide45]

Did you find that in writing. If dealing with Marriott has taught me anything it is no matter what you are told or promised, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't count.

I see you didn't find the language. Or did you forget to put the link here?

They do not guarantee that values on the points charts will not change. Yep, it's right there on the chart itself. But they do not have the right to increase all points in a points chart for a single resort across the board, the way you're insinuating. They can re-allocate according to demand, which means that the days/unit I might get today for 1000 points might be 1200 sometime in the future, but that will have to be offset by a 200 point reduction somewhere else in the calendar. They cannot simply add 200 or however many points to every value whenever they please.

The main issue here with point allocation is that Marriott started a new exchange company, not a new timeshare company. Laws regulating exchange companies are not what they are for a points based ownership like DVC. Marriott can basically do what it want with the points charts for resorts that are not in the trust. They may have more limitiations on resorts in the trust.

There is nothing in any law or governing document that limits how Marriott can modify the points chart to their advantage. If I am wrong, point me to it.

 

[melroseman]

Does anyone know if there is or will be a credit for owners who currently hold multi year subscriptions for Interval?

I think you'll get an AC if you have more than 1 year left with Interval, and a second one at the end of 2 years if you have 36 or more months on your Interval subscription

 

[Brenda]

Just a little reminder that us (the "little people" with less than 13K allocated points) cannot book 5 or 6 days until 10 months in advance. By definition, that would not work for most high demnd weeks...

========================================================
What I am saying for the 1 - 2 week owner: For your own week, you reserve as you do now at the 12/13 month period. If you want to trade to a like resort, then using your points, you reserve less than 7 days at a resort you don't own. If you do not want to purchase additional points, you do not have to. The 10 month window is for resorts, where you do not own. You may not get prime weeks at a resort you don't own. But you were never promised prime trade weeks with II. It was always by chance. If you don't want to lose your home week, reserve it first, then call at 10 months to check if there is availability at the to be traded resort. If not available at that time, make your search with points Request First. Then you wouldn't lose your home resort if the trade does not come through. This will work if we can reserve in the week system and then search the point system without converting your week to points.

 

[Brenda]

Can you get a summer Maui, Kauiai, or even a summer NCV with your 2BR Platinum Koolina? (I believe the answer is no)

That's the point he was making... The vast majority woul agree that a 2BR Platinum Hawaii is like for like with either of those...

=======================================================
You own at Ko"olina not Maui. Why should you be able to get a prime week where you don't own? Before points, you could request the trade through II but it was never certain you would get it. With points come equality. A week where you do not own is not equal. The true deserved of a prime week is the person who owns there, not a trader.

 

[heathpack]

I'm pretty sure, comfortable enough assuming, that the difference is that the point system established for timeshare inventory is subject to many more legal constraints and requirements than Marriott's reward (lower case intentional) system for valued customers.

I am not a lawyer nor a Marriott owner. But I do own both Hyatt and DVC and I did read quite a bit about California timeshare law when Hyatt recently increased points requirements for the Highlands Inn in Carmel.

I would not assume too much about what Marriott can or cannot do in regards to points. Hyatt points and Disney points are legally looked at very differently. Because the Hyatt points are an overlay to a traditional weeks-based timeshare system, Hyatt can do whatever they want in regards to raising point requirements for stays, as long as you retain access to you regular deeded week. Hyatt points legally are similar to hotel rewards points.

DVC on the other hand is a points-based system and points-based systems are governed by a different set of rules in California. Total points valuations for a resort are defined in the initial governing documents of the time-share plan as submitted to the CA state department of real estate for approval. From there, points values cannot be increased by more than 10% per year unless >25% of non-developer owners vote for such a change.

In California, it would seem to my non-lawyer self that Marriott weeks owners would be joining the points system as an overlay to their deeded week usage, in which case there would be no laws governing points increases. However, new points owners would be buying into a points system, which would be subject to laws pertaining to points based systems.

So as I understand it, weeks owners that use a points overlay for internal exchange purposes have far less legal protection in regards to points devaluation than do pure points owners. It is possible that different sets of laws will pertain to owners in CA depending on what system was in place when they purchased.

Maybe someone who actually is a lawyer will be able to comment on this with more authority than I can.

One thing that I will point out is that DVC's sales pitch majorly emphasizes the concept that they can never increase total points values at a resort. If Marriott is not emphasizing this, I would be concerned that they may have more wiggle room legally than DVC does.

H

 

[mauiwowie]

Maybe we can trade weeks every other year Frank

Hi Frank,

My situation and concerns about the new system's effect on my usage is very similar to yours! Maybe we and other Maui owners can do our own trading of weeks, since we too like to do two weeks every other year, even though we own an every year unit. That way we don't have to pay Marriott's point inflation for the priviledge of using our week at our resort. That is assuming that we can get a week that we want, since it seems that premium members will be able to book in advance of us:annoyed: Do you want to share our weeks, so that we can get the 13 month advantage?

 

[dioxide45]

I am not a lawyer nor a Marriott owner. But I do own both Hyatt and DVC and I did read quite a bit about California timeshare law when Hyatt recently increased points requirements for the Highlands Inn in Carmel.
H

The new exchange program is governed by Florida Law. Here is a link to the statute relating to exchange programs in Florida.

 

[rsackett]

========================================================
What I am saying for the 1 - 2 week owner: For your own week, you reserve as you do now at the 12/13 month period. If you want to trade to a like resort, then using your points, you reserve less than 7 days at a resort you don't own. If you do not want to purchase additional points, you do not have to. The 10 month window is for resorts, where you do not own. You may not get prime weeks at a resort you don't own. But you were never promised prime trade weeks with II. It was always by chance. If you don't want to lose your home week, reserve it first, then call at 10 months to check if there is availability at the to be traded resort. If not available at that time, make your search with points Request First. Then you wouldn't lose your home resort if the trade does not come through. This will work if we can reserve in the week system and then search the point system without converting your week to points.

I believe you have to declare before (about 3 months) the use year if you want to use points or weeks. If you are in the use year you can not decide to use points. I thing you would have to search through II with your week in the example you gave.

Ray