Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[camachinist]

I wonder if those Vacation Club 'PlusPoints' (the 800 tease) will become like an A/C at II, periodically offered to tease people into doing something.

I assume everyone got their e-mail from MVCI as I'm always late to that party, just having received it. Interesting read, in that the disclaimers at the bottom take up almost as much space as the big type at the top. Hope it works out for them

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Time Limitations

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.

If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.

The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.

 

[aka Julie]

I just got an email inviting me to join...anyone else?

Nope, not yet.

Hope they do a better job of sending these out than they did with the gift of time. Never did get an e-mail on that despite owning 3 weeks.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Marriott has been hard at work figuring out a way to kill the resale value of the weeks they sold in the past. That profit has been made and spent, now the only important customers are those who convert to points and buy points. I feel sure that the Marriott marketing department researched and polled a lot of current owners and finally concluded that the best way for them to show their customer's how much they appreciate them is by killing the value of what Marriott sold them. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?

Or they just figured out a pretty simple way to ensure that in the future they will be able to pick up inventory through ROFR on the external resale market at reduced cost, to increase their holdings in their new Points offering. They looked for a way to do so that complied with the existing contracts and this was it. Their stockholders should expect decisions like this from them, and they have an obligation to deliver.

 

[Rush]

Sorry, duplicate post...

 

[Rush]

Yes, that's my understanding. The Enrolled Points membership is an addendum to a deeded week contract that will not transfer upon resale, and this is from the FAQ for the Enrolled Points option (bolding mine):

Wow!

Thanks Susan.

I seem to remember other posts indicating that future resale owners will be able to join the program, but only upon paying a fee. If it is indeed the case that they will be precluded from joining, boy, have resale values just taken a HUGE hit...

 

[SueDonJ]

I checked the number of points for my unit on Sunday , 6/20/2010 and the number was 2600. Today, when I was preparing to enroll, my point value was listed as 1925. A MVC owner representative told me that all other owners at my resort/season had been awarded 1925 points and that this was the first time they had encountered this problem. Unfortunately, I did not print the 2600 point page.

HAs this happened to anyone else?

Yes, there have been reports of corrections made by Marriott. I know at SurfWatch they initially were showing the same amount of points for 2BR and 3BR units with same season/view; the 2BR points have been corrected downward. Not sure what other resorts are reporting corrections.

 

[tombo]

See below:
Enrollment fee $700 -
Value of 800 points $400 - Make up your own number
Net Cost to enroll - $300
Probability of hating new system - 50% - Make up your own number
Expected cost to join - $150
Expected savings in one year with 1 lock off and 2 Marriott II trades - $217 -insert your own number
Net Cost of joining for one year - -$67


It is ALWAYS cheaper for me since I lockoff one week and exchange.

For you worst case:

Enrollment fee $1,995 -
Value of 800 points $0 - They are a fraud
Net Cost to enroll - $1,995
Probability of hating new system - 100%
Expected cost to join - $1,995
Expected loss in one year for usage - $165
Net Cost of joining for one year - $2,060


I said if you are resale buyer then you have a choice to make. I guess you will choose no. Or you could say I saved $10,000 on my week, so that is not bad to stay with the program.

BTW there are many more like me than like you, so if you are worried about keeping access to the future exchange system you should apply some value to that in your analysis. YMMV.

I feel sure there are more like you than me, and I don't doubt in the long run that my access to inventory will become very limited thanks to many converting to points, but I will not convert and pay the extortion. one other thing you fail t factor in is the owners who hqave prime seasons, prime fixed weeks, people who use their home week almost every year who will not convert. If they don't put their weeks into points pool, you can own one million points and NVEVER trade for one of those prime weeks. Most who convert will have weak trading weeks and see this as a way to get access to better inventory. If the best inventory remains with the weeks owners, you can buy every point Marriott has for sale and rarely end up staying in prime weeks.

By the way, you refuse to address the cost of stolen points in the exchange expense comparison. II charges $89 a year, Marriott charges charges $76 more per year per year . II charges $149 for an exchange, so on the surface II costs $73 more for an exchange. When you factor in the points Marriott steals every time you deposit your week, it can easily be points which you pay $200 for annually or more. Take the $200 in point theft minus the $73 more II seems to chare, and you are $127 cheaper exchanging through II. Then you bring up lock-off fees with II as though marriott doesn't skim additional points there too, but we know that they do. Add up the points you will pay for a week in a 2 bed room and compare it to the amount of points Marriott charges for a studio and a one bed room and you will see that yes you do pay a fee to Mariott to stay in lock-offs, and it is often (if not always) more than II charges for the same thing. So yes you can exchange through II and lock-off weeks through II cheaper than using Marriott points when you factor in the annual Marriot fee and the cost of the points Marriott charges to exchange and lock off. The difference is that II is honest and upfront about what they charge members to exchange and lock-off, Marriott on the other hand skims and steals points from every transaction hiding the true cost of using points for exchanges and lock-offs.That is what TUG is here for, we point out marriott's hidden point charges to all who are willing read and listen.

 

[Slakk]

text deleted

 

[tombo]

Or they just figured out a pretty simple way to ensure that in the future they will be able to pick up inventory through ROFR on the external resale market at reduced cost, to increase their holdings in their new Points offering. They looked for a way to do so that complied with the existing contracts and this was it. Their stockholders should expect decisions like this from them, and they have an obligation to deliver.

If they kill your resale value to buy it using ROFR or they kill your resale value to make their sale better, does it really matter why?

BMW has stockholders. If you buy a BMW for $50,000 and you can sell it for $25,000, but the sale of used BMW's used hurting the sale of new cars, would you really be OK if BMW came up with a plan to kill the resale value of what you bought from them? If by manipulating some rules or laws or servicing requirements your vehicle which used to be worth $25,000, became worth $8,000, would it be OK because they did it to prop up the new car prices, or acceptable if they did it so they could get it from you for a much cheaper price($8000) to sell for a lot more on their lot? There would be lawsuits to high heavens. People want to buy cars that hold their resale values, not that plummet like a rock. BMW has stockholders and they don't make money killing the value of what they sell. In fact most high dollar items are sold with proud annoncements of how well they retain their value through the years, not how quckly they necome worthless.

You may never plan on selling your Marriott(s), but if your health gets bad and you can't travel you will not pay $1000's in annual MF's for something you can't use. What ever resale value for your week(s) is, that is YOUR MONEY. If you try to sell and get almost nothing for week(s) you paid $50,000 for thanks to the retail developer activelly killing the value of what you bought from them, and that is ok? What other high dollar product would you buy and feel good that the seller made sure it was worth nothing if you ever want to sell it? Diamonds? Real estate? Your home?

I assure you I want whatever I buy to retain as much of it's value as it can which is why I buy timeshares resale, much of the depreciation has already occurred. I would never buy high dollar things knowing that in a few years the value becomes zero, and i would never be happy that by killing the value of what they sold me that the developer is lining their pockets with money that should rightfully have been mine!

 

[timeos2]

The bottom line. Marriott is not one to own.

You dont care that by joining Marriott insists you give up your right to vote with your HOA against anything to do with Marriott ?

This item, VERY important, is yet another in a long line of Marriott power plays that basically rule out Marriott ownership for us.

In the past Marriott has insisted on both developing and then managing the resorts (or taking over total control of resorts they bought into). They charge an unreasonable (IMO) premium on the management fees in addition to requiring only THEIR approved contractors (and high commissions) to keep their name on the letterhead. All of that is not needed. They could easily do as they do on the hotel side and simply tell the resorts what the requirements are to e a Marriott & then the resort meets them or doesn't. The best value could be obtained for the products/services required at a tremendous savings to the owners yet still result in the exact same quality resort. A big power play and a horrendous, unneeded expense feeding the Marriott coffers from owners.

ROFR. This is an extremely owner negative program that only favors Marriott. They have it at most resorts (as Westgate tries to say they do but often don't - but that should tell you what an underhanded thing that is when Westgate embraces it) and it has cost owners resale value and frustration.

The new points program apparently (and to me incredibly) includes a planned "skim" of points value that go to Marriott. If this really is the case (I still find it hard to believe) this is a first and really lowers Marriott to the level of a Westgate type rip off organization. Truly the last straw.

The high quality and often great locations of Marriott timeshares simply cannot overcome these horrendous negatives. Being an owner with Marriott simply cannot be a good value given those negatives among others. It has been easy until now to use the II corporate priority with non-Marriott ownerships to get trades into virtually any Marriott resort thus saving big money over actually owning one and trying to trade within the Marriott system. If that has dried up (and it appears it will due to the new points program and its set of priorities) simply renting has also proven to be easy, gets you the exact week/resort/even view that can be almost impossible to trade for/own despite the high costs of owning. Rents have been depressed for a couple years and will most likely remain so or again at least far below the costs of being an owner and the obligations that brings.

We love the Marriott timeshares and stay at them regularly. We plan to continue to do that, but at our usual $100 +/- night average cost rather than any type of ownership points or week based. My advice to others would have to be that trading in or rental is a far better financial choice than any type of ownership in the Marriott timeshare system. Too many negatives, too expensive and WAY too much control in the hands of Marriott to make ownership viable.

 

[gmarine]

In 10 years x 2 resorts - 20 votes I have probably voted about 7 times and I have never voted for anything besides what the HOA recommended. How about you? Has anything at any resort ever been approved that was not recommended by the HOA?

I don't concern myself with rights that I don't really have anyway. I would expect that in the case of changing Management companies that I would always vote to retain Marriott anyway or I would sell. Not interested in being managed by another firm.

Rights you dont have ? You have the right to vote your opinion. Marriott is telling you that if you join you must give up that right. If you dont see anything wrong with that then there isnt anything Marriott could do that you would think is wrong.

You seem to be Marriott's dream customer and no matter what they do you will go along with it. And your enititled to that opinion. That is unless Marriott tells you your not.

 

[urple2]

I feel sure there are more like you than me, and I don't doubt in the long run that my access to inventory will become very limited thanks to many converting to points, but I will not convert and pay the extortion.

I feel exactly the same way!

I know i have said this enough but if marriott can take my deposits out of inventory of Interval, it does even more than hurt us,it diminishes the whole exchange system even further.

 

[gmarine]

This item, VERY important, is yet another in a long line of Marriott power plays that basically rule out Marriott ownership for us.

In the past Marriott has insisted on both developing and then managing the resorts (or taking over total control of resorts they bought into). They charge an unreasonable (IMO) premium on the management fees in addition to requiring only THEIR approved contractors (and high commissions) to keep their name on the letterhead. All of that is not needed. They could easily do as they do on the hotel side and simply tell the resorts what the requirements are to e a Marriott & then the resort meets them or doesn't. The best value could be obtained for the products/services required at a tremendous savings to the owners yet still result in the exact same quality resort. A big power play and a horrendous, unneeded expense feeding the Marriott coffers from owners.

ROFR. This is an extremely owner negative program that only favors Marriott. They have it at most resorts (as Westgate tries to say they do but often don't - but that should tell you what an underhanded thing that is when Westgate embraces it) and it has cost owners resale value and frustration.

The new points program apparently (and to me incredibly) includes a planned "skim" of points value that go to Marriott. If this really is the case (I still find it hard to believe) this is a first and really lowers Marriott to the level of a Westgate type rip off organization. Truly the last straw.

The high quality and often great locations of Marriott timeshares simply cannot overcome these horrendous negatives. Being an owner with Marriott simply cannot be a good value given those negatives among others. It has been easy until now to use the II corporate priority with non-Marriott ownerships to get trades into virtually any Marriott resort thus saving big money over actually owning one and trying to trade within the Marriott system. If that has dried up (and it appears it will due to the new points program and its set of priorities) simply renting has also proven to be easy, gets you the exact week/resort/even view that can be almost impossible to trade for/own despite the high costs of owning. Rents have been depressed for a couple years and will most likely remain so or again at least far below the costs of being an owner and the obligations that brings.

We love the Marriott timeshares and stay at them regularly. We plan to continue to do that, but at our usual $100 +/- night average cost rather than any type of ownership points or week based. My advice to others would have to be that trading in or rental is a far better financial choice than any type of ownership in the Marriott timeshare system. Too many negatives, too expensive and WAY too much control in the hands of Marriott to make ownership viable.

This is a fantastic post, very well said. I agree.

 

[brianfox]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.

If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.

The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.

In the 46 pages of comments, I missed this one, and it sounds like a complete dealbreaker.

If you essentially cannot bank your points (as just about every other point system lets you do) because of a 1 yrear expiration, how can a point owner ever hope to stay in the top Marriott resorts?

It reminds me of the "Coke Rewards" program where the top prizes are 10,000 points, but you can only add up to 100 points per week to your account.

 

[SueDonJ]

If they kill your resale value to buy it using ROFR or they kill your resale value to make their sale better, does it really matter why?

BMW has stockholders. If you buy a BMW for $50,000 and you can sell it for $25,000, but the sale of used BMW's used hurting the sale of new cars, would you really be OK if BMW came up with a plan to kill the resale value of what you bought from them? If by manipulating some rules or laws your vehicle was worth $25,000 and now it is worth $8,000 would it be OK because they did it to prop up the new car prices or acceptable if they did it so they could get it from you for $8000 to sell for a lot more on their lot? BMW has stockholders and they don't make money killing the value of what they sell. In fact most high dollar items are sold with proud annoncements of how well they retain their value through the years, not how quckly they necome worthless.

You may never plan on selling your Marriott(s), but if your health gets bad and you can't travel you will not pay $1000's in annual MF's for something you can't use. Then you try to sell it and get almost nothing for week(s) you paid $50,000 for thanks to the retail developer activelly killing the value of what you bought from them, and that is ok? What other high dollar product would you buy and feel good that the seller made sure it was worth nothing if you ever want to sell it? Diamonds? Real estate? Your home?

I assure you I want whatever I buy to retain as much of it's value as it can which is why I buy timeshares resale, much of the depreciation has already occurred. I would never buy high dollar things knowing that in a few years the value becomes zero thanks to the seller destroying the resale value of what they sold me.

We hashed out the resale devaluation eighty-seventeen ways from Sunday in the speculation thread. Actually, it's been an ongoing subject for all the years I've been reading TUG and probably goes back to the beginning of time. :hysterical:

Bottom line for me is, Marriott isn't charged by the contracts with protecting resale value of their products. It doesn't matter to me, I don't let it upset me, I don't even think about it, because there is nothing that I can do about it!

As far as its implication with enrolling in the new Points system, it makes no difference at all in the decision to enroll. Zip. Zero. None. Whatever the effects of this system on resale values, they will apply to every existing deeded week from this point forward, enrolled or not.

 

[kedler]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the issue of time limitations in the new Marriott point system versus the old Interval International system.

If I understand it correctly, the new Marriott Vacation Points expire within a year, or during the next calendar year, whereas Interval International allows one three years in which to perform an exchange after a deposit has been made.

The three year flexibility of when to use a deposited week has always been appealing for me.

In the II Guide that is with the other Marriott documents there is information that allows you to "extend the life" of points that will expire up to 24 months.

The II Guide is with the other documents that you can access on the MVC owner website by clicking the link to enroll your week. I think the pdf documents are on the second page. You don't need to enroll your week to get to the documents.

 

[judys19058]

There are so many issues to address here. Our deeds are now worthless and trading values are greatly diminished. I admit that I don't know what the new points are selling for, but based on what Marriott is giving me for my units, no one will buy my units. You no longer have priority booking into your own home resort. Any one with the appropriate number of points can have priority over you. I no longer can trade my DSVI for equal weeks in some other resorts. This resort has always been a good trader with II, but Marriott thinks it is not worth a full week in most trades. I always knew that II had placed values on my resorts, but I was always able to trade week for week, and many times, score nice upgrades (full villa for my lock off). I noticed that I would have to trade my 2 bedroom Aruba Ocean Club and part of another unit to book a week in some other resorts. Now think about your maintenance fees. How will Marriott reimburse our resorts as they begin to own a growing number units bought on the FROR market? There are so many more problems with this system I can't even go into this. This is not the Marriott I bought into, and now I fear that I won't even be able to trade for anything, and worse, not even sell out.

 

[tombo]

We hashed out the resale devaluation eighty-seventeen ways from Sunday in the speculation thread. Actually, it's been an ongoing subject for all the years I've been reading TUG and probably goes back to the beginning of time. :hysterical:

Bottom line for me is, Marriott isn't charged by the contracts with protecting resale value of their products. It doesn't matter to me, I don't let it upset me, I don't even think about it, because there is nothing that I can do about it!

As far as its implication with enrolling in the new Points system, it makes no difference at all in the decision to enroll. Zip. Zero. None. Whatever the effects of this system on resale values, they will apply to every existing deeded week from this point forward, enrolled or not.

So I could sell you a car for $50,000 which should be worth $25,000 after you drive it off the lot, then I could tell you later that things changed unless you pay me $2000 to service it that it is only worth $8000, and then after you pay me $2000 I reduce the value of your resale by having a new $2000 upgrade required or the resale value will be almost zero, then you pay me $2000 more to upgrade and I reduce you value of what you purchased by another $2000 by charging your next buyer the same $2000 to pay for exactly what you already paid for, and I would be a reputable salesman you would like to buy from again?

 

[winger]

... but I don't think not being allowed into the program would deter a resale buyer looking at saving a lot of money vs. Marriott developer pricing. I could be wrong.

If you are strictly occupying your week or exchanging to non-Marriott resorts, you will be VERY happy.

Unfortunately, at this time, with the uncertainty of:
a) whether Marriott will siphon more precious weeks from the II system to satisfy new Destination Club point members' requests,
and
b) how many current deeded owners eventually convert and relinquish their annual weeks for Destination Club points

you COULD be disappointed with the choice of Marriott resorts available for exchanging via II.

 

[SueDonJ]

So I could sell you a car for $50,000 which should be worth $25,000 after you drive it off the lot, then I could tell you later that things changed unless you pay me $2000 to service it that it is only worth $8000, and then after you pay me $2000 I reduce the value orf your resale by another $2000 by charging your next buyer the same $2000 to pay for exactly what you already paid for, and I would be a reputable salesman you would like to buy from again?

A timeshare isn't a car. It's a timeshare. I expect different things from a purchase of a car than a purchase of timeshare, because the market-driven forces lead me to those different expectations.

Developer-direct purchasers of Marriott timeshares are aware of, have been subject to, an extreme devaluation on the resale market for practically the life of their ownerships. Here on TUG they've been pointing out for years that the contracts simply do not support any expectation of a return on investment dollars. It appears that with the advent of the Points system that non-support will now affect external resale purchasers, as sellers, as well. I don't mean this in any way insulting or sarcastic, but "welcome to the real world."

Each of us has to decide from the day we purchase throughout our ownership if our timeshare usage as it exists when we use it is worth the costs we've paid, knowing that usage and costs can and will change. What's right for one may not be right for another, what matters most for one may not matter most for another. On this particular issue of resale devaluation, it's obvious that you and I will never come to a meeting of the minds. I understand your point of view but it's not one I share with respect to my ownership.

 

[sparty]

See this quote at several MVCI web pages (including this one) (log-in required):

Sorry my question wasn't very detailed. My understanding is starting July 26th you can start reserving 2010 weeks..

What was confusing me is some of the MVCI stuff like the points chart shows 2011 points requirements but not 2010 points requirements.

I want to test the system out ASAP as a Premier member...

 

[winger]

...

Once I join, I'm locked in to the points they say it's worth right now instead of potentially more at a later date?

Of course, that is how it works.

Case in point. I only get 110,000 MRP's if I choose to turn in my Manor Club week every year. That NEVER changes, regardless what happens on the redemption side (pts required for hotel stays, travel package, etc.) or to my resort's annual maintenance fee.

 

[californiagirl]

I
I assume everyone got their e-mail from MVCI as I'm always late to that party, just having received it.

What email??? But then I never received the Gift of Time email either.:annoyed:

 

[camachinist]

I got like five GOT e-mails

Developer-direct purchasers of Marriott timeshares are aware of, have been subject to, an extreme devaluation on the resale market for practically the life of their ownerships.

Agreed, and, at my resort, resale values have dropped 50% or more in the last two years versus a relatively stable price in the 5 years prior, since our developer purchase, likely due to the economy. My concern is that some MBA at Marriott has cooked up a scheme to capitalize on that dynamic to profit Marriott at the expense of current owners. The more I read, especially about the inefficiencies and perceived inequities in this 'new' system, the more cynical I'm becoming. This isn't really news, since, as a regular Marriott hotel user, I've noted a decline in quality of service over the last four-six years as well. Interesting how customer perception is a moving target

IMO, if Marriott had wanted to impliment a points system, it should be completely handled within MARSHA or the MVCI branded portals. I was flabbergasted that it is to become just another II overlay and an opaque one (no online functionality) at that. Like I said elsewhere, when pigs fly.