Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[brianfox]

Brian- I think this is how Marriott can grab weeks from II for the Program.

Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, it appears that they can only snatch those weeks if they were deposited by (or requested by) a person in who could otherwise get points for his week. If I choose not to become a member of this Marriott option, then I believe Marriott cannot interfere with (or snatch) my deposit into Interval.

That's the big concern I have - that the act of even "trying out" the point system will allow Marriott to snatch deposits - even if they elect not to take points.


EDIT - Okay, wait a minute... I don't see anything wrong with that part of the rules. Marriott will attempt Request First exchanges on behalf of Point members? I don't have any problem with that - as long as they are going to deposit a decent week in exchange, and as long as my Deposit First request is handled ahead of them. If they are given priority over us because they are Marriott, then I have a problem.

Is this the only basis for the idea that Marriott can snatch II inventory? If so, it seems pretty flimsy (and takes the wind out of my problem with the system)

 

[Andar]

People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.

My question is about the club fee of $168. That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight. What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien? Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.

Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.

What am I missing?

 

[jjluhman]

Someone posted statements from Marriott documents that said the points requests could be satisfied by non enrolled members deposits in II- I have read so many posts that I have NO idea which thread that is even posted in. Cannot imagine why:rofl:
That is exactly my concern- I think that Marriott & II have come to the agreement that Marriott's requests will be honored ahead of individual account requests. They have a corporate relationship and we are just little players in their game.

 

[brianfox]

People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.

My question is about the club fee of $168. That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight. What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien? Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.

Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.

What am I missing?

Lien? No. This was asked earlier. They just kick you out of the point system. Since the fee includes your Interval membership, I imagine Interval would be knocking at your door next asking you to re-join.

From the perspective of the "club fee" $168 is far cheaper than 1 yr of Interval + a lockoff fee + an exchange fee (two exchanges if you have a lockoff). But that assumes you use the point system. If you don't then the $168 is not much more than your current Interval membership.

Now, a good question is whether Marriott will let you do the lockoff under the $168 club fee, then deposit one half (or both) in II? If so, then the $168 is pretty much a wash for people who have lockoffs. If you have 2 lockoff weeks, the $168 is a bargain.

The concern about a "test drive" is we don't fully understand what stipulations come along with it. It sounds innocent enough - heck, Marriott practically makes the first year free (if you purchased through Marriott) by dangling points in front of your face. Me? I smell a rat.

 

[Stressy]

But, correct me if I'm wrong, it appears that they can only snatch those weeks if they were deposited by (or requested by) a person in who could otherwise get points for his week. If I choose not to become a member of this Marriott option, then I believe Marriott cannot interfere with (or snatch) my deposit into Interval.

That's the big concern I have - that the act of even "trying out" the point system will allow Marriott to snatch deposits - even if they elect not to take points.


EDIT - Okay, wait a minute... I don't see anything wrong with that part of the rules. Marriott will attempt Request First exchanges on behalf of Point members? I don't have any problem with that - as long as they are going to deposit a decent week in exchange, and as long as my Deposit First request is handled ahead of them. If they are given priority over us because they are Marriott, then I have a problem.
Is this the only basis for the idea that Marriott can snatch II inventory? If so, it seems pretty flimsy (and takes the wind out of my problem with the system)

That's my question exactly. Who should answer this...Marriott or II?

 

[hipslo]

Just Had a "Flash" About Inventory Allocations

If much of the inventory that is anticipated to be available to points is going to come from weeks owners who deposit their reserved week into II, the absolute earliest that those weeks will become available to points owners is AFTER the weeks owner makes a reservation (at 13 or 12 months) and deposits the week into II, right?

So, if that is the case, don't weeks owners (those who dont enroll, and those who do enroll but do not elect points for a given year) STILL get first crack at the best weeks?

Or am I missing something?

I realize that there may be issues with availability in II if marriott poaches the deposited weeks for use in the points program, but what I am focused on here is reserving to use.

Could all the speculation of increased competition for home resort reservations from points owners be a red herring, at least at resorts that are sold out, or nearly so, based on my observation?

 

[brianfox]

That's my question exactly. Who should answer this...Marriott or II?

For the next month or so, you could call a dozen times and get a dozen different answers from a dozen different people.
I bet only 5 people at Marriott know for sure - and 4 of them are lawyers.

 

[jjluhman]

Here it is- posted by banquopak in the Trust only has 11 thread!

>And from Marriott's page:
>
>Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within >the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?

>Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for >reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who >enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-
>enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or >exchange their week through membership in Interval International.

>Don't join, and don't trade interval. If you do either, the units will go to the >points people first and probably only get into one of the 11 resorts >currently listed in their disclosure.

 

[CapriciousC]

People talk of "test driving" the new system saying, what do they have to lose? They can decide to use home resort or trade for points but they have just locked in another annual fee just like the MF.

My question is about the club fee of $168. That seems to be an annual fee whether you trade for points or just go to your home resort - and since it is an annual fee there is no end in sight. What if it was not paid for a year, could they file a lien? Why would we want to pay an annual fee forever just in case we wanted to trade for point.

Right now, we get all the MR points we need through the use of our CC.

What am I missing?

Good point - this is another reason the program is not particularly attractive to us. My husband travels frequently for business and usually stays in Marriott hotels - he's at the Platinum level and tends to rack up points faster than we can use them. Those points cost us nothing, and it's very easy to redeem them for hotel stays. I don't like the idea of paying an annual fee "just in case" I decide to utilize this new point system.

I realize that there are thousands of Vacation Club members, and each of our situations are different. However, it seems as though this plan was designed to appeal greatly to a particular subset of the member population, while being not remotely appealing to the remainder of members.

Does anyone know why the Caribbean resorts are included but the European ones aren't? Is it the result of some sort of legal restriction?

 

[jjluhman]

hipslo-

That makes sense and sure makes me feel better about my ability to book my own season. I hope that you are right!

 

[hipslo]

hipslo-

That makes sense and sure makes me feel better about my ability to book my own season. I hope that you are right!

If I am right, then I guess the only source of weeks that points owners would be directly competing for would be those that come from owners of the same season at the home resort who enroll and elect points for a given year.

 

[DanCali]

I'm glad she was honest enough to give you a straight answer. However, she couldn't address the point that even if you bought a second week, neither of your weeks could garner an equal trade. So, yes, now you realize that you could've gotten another week and thus have more than enough points to trade for, say, 1.8 or 1.9 equivalent weeks.

Lovely.

They *always* say something to the effect that "now is the time to buy". If this time they really meant it, they should've explained why, rather than springing this set of changes on us. They did NOT deal with their customer base in an open and honest way.

It's not that prices are went up, it's that values went down. They're using the system to deny things you could formerly do. That's not value creation, it's exploitation of people who they have put over a barrel.

The fact that they're asking for blind faith to trust them completely in their new points contracts is quite the outrageous power grab. I've never seen anything like it in any contract I've ever drafted or signed, short of a medical release (go ahead and kill me, I'm in your hands).

I'd love to hear that former Disney exec whose work product this supposedly is, come out of the shadows and justify his value proposition. (Maybe he was that shuttle bus driver who said that Marriott and Disney were going to merge their timeshare operations.)

ps - this is not intended to offend anyone who may see value in the new program, as I can see how in some scenarios (perhaps even my own) this could still be a reasonable decision to buy. For most people, however, the options available and various of the takeaways in the new program, represent a very poor value relative to what was available a few days ago.

The more I read about the disadvantages of the program, the more I feel this is what Marriott did to their most loyal customers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ

 

[DanCali]

Hang on. I looked at the enrollment, saw a point value, liked it, called Marriott for confirmation on the point value and then PAID them for it and got a confirmation with that amount listed. I did not get something for nothing I have no idea if this number has changed more than the 3 numbers I have seen.

This has nothing to do with society - it has to do with Marriott offering me something, me agreeing to the terms, them confirming the deal then without notice or explanation changing the terms.

I guess you think it would be fine if I advertised my BMW for sale and you contacted me and we agreed to the price and I confirmed a sale and then sent you a little red wagon.

If that's the case, want to buy a BMW? :hysterical:

Given what you read on TUG about others' owners allocations being below the season average, did you not suspect at all this was a mistake on their part?

I understand you jumped on the deal, but honoring this will probably cause many more problems for them. Now if they don't let you back out and give you a full refund, you have every right to be upset.

Do you still like the program now that you got shafted like everyone else? If so, stay in it. If you are not sure, ask for a refund,think it over for a few months, and you can reenroll until Dec 31....

 

[mightywyrm]

The more I read about the disadvantages of the program, the more I feel this is what Marriott did to their most loyal customers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdFLPn30dvQ

LoL.

Here's a meeting of the sales staff (WARNING: great drama, but Alec Baldwin uses a lot of off-color language)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI

 

[DanCali]

Most people will 'invest' $700 to protect a $100k investment.

This was a very good post, but you went a bit overboard with this. The $100K "investment" deprecated 60% or more after 7 days. This new program depreciates it further. The $100K is long gone and spending $700 is possibly just throwing good money after bad (a-la the link in post #1062 above).

I myself have been wondering about the question will a converted week be worth more on the resale market than a non converted week... My understanding is that a converted week will allow the next buyer to convert to points for $1500. A non-converted week will lose that ability forever (or until the next promotion designed to get inventory). So in thery, a converted week is worth more since it as an option attached. But exercising that option costs the new buyer $1500 - so how much more will they actually pay for a converted week? I guess it depends onthe resort and season but if it's $1K-$2K one could argue in favor of conversion just based on this argument.

 

[DanaTom]

Given what you read on TUG about others' owners allocations being below the season average, did you not suspect at all this was a mistake on their part?

I understand you jumped on the deal, but honoring this will probably cause many more problems for them. Now if they don't let you back out and give you a full refund, you have every right to be upset.

Do you still like the program now that you got shafted like everyone else? If so, stay in it. If you are not sure, ask for a refund,think it over for a few months, and you can reenroll until Dec 31....

I suspect that the disclosure to enter into joining has a no-fault reference for computer or other errors, so Marriott has the right to correct the error. But, SLAKKs situation does show me something that has existed with every knowledgeable Timesharer.... find the best deal possible, and use the system to their advantage. Beside probably budgeting, I think that is another reason Marriott has moved to the points system. So they control the inventory, not the knowledgeable Timesharer (which includes a lot of Tuggers, whom gladly share their secrets). As this program progresses, I'm sure glad I'm not on an Island by myself to figure it out...I'll have all of you fellow Tuggers!!!!

 

[mightywyrm]

Here's my 2 cents about this new system:

Marriott is moving to the system Disney has - points.
The problem is that current owners own a tangible asset of sorts - the right to a week at their home resort - and until now, owners never really had a concrete value to associate with their owned week. Sure, the free-market system assigned a value to the resale of your week, and Marriott assigned a retail value, but the fact that we can exchange our seemingly worthless week for a prime week inflated the value of any resort that tends to be "traded up" from.

Now, the point system attempts to assign a really-for-real value to every resort. Let's for a moment remove II from the equation. Let's take a cold hard look at just the Marriott point-system in a vacuum.

Going forward, as I understand it - new Marriott customers will only buy points. The cost right now appears to be $9.20 a point to buy and Maintenance Fees of $.40 per point.

I own the following weeks:
Platinum week at Desert Springs II = 2,900 points to me if I take points.
Silver week at Willow Ridge = 850 points to me if I take points

Let's see how they compare to the proposed point system:
I'm going to just use the points I would receive from Marriott as an owner for these calculations (not the points it would cost to stay that week):

Desert Springs - 2900 * $9.20 = $26680. This is the "value" marriott is assigning to ownership of my Platinum week. Bear with me if you want to argue this...

Willow Ridge - 850 points * $920 = $7820.

So am I suggesting my Willow Ridge Silver week is worth almost $8000? Hardly, but Marriott seems to be saying that... After all, buying 850 points annually would cost me $7820, and Marriott will give me 850 points annually for my Willow Ridge week.

What about the Maintenance Fees?
I paid $1080 in 2010 for Desert Springs. Point-wise, I paid $1080/2900= $0.372 per point -- slightly less than the $0.40 per point a new Marriott points-only customer would pay.

I paid $780 in 2010 for Willow Ridge MF. Point-wise, I paid $780/850=a staggering $0.917 per point. To me, that is an indication that Marriott is assigning a higher point value to the resort than they believe it's worth.


I purchased both of my weeks resale just a year ago, at a very good price. My Desert Springs cost $6500, and Marriott will allow me to exchange for 2900 points annually if I become a member of their system. Purchasing 2900 points today would cost about $20,000 more than what I paid for my week which would get the equivalent number of points and the MF would be roughly the same.


My Willow Ridge cost $1000, and Marriott will allow me to exchenge for 850 points annually if I become a member. Purchasing 850 points today would cost about $7000 more than what I paid for my week which would get the equivalent number of points, but the MF would be about half of what I pay.

From that vacuum perspective, the Marriott system sounds like a great deal - especially if I want to always stay at my home resort, or are willing to exchange into a lesser-resort.

Where it goes extremely sour is when we want to "exchange up". Until now, we could get great deals through II. From almost any perspective, an exchange out of a winter Branson week is an exchange up - that's why I purchased it. Any Flexchange I could get would most certainly be a great one.

Through the Marriott point system, the resort costs are laid out and appear to be inflexible. There is no "Flexchange" discount for last minute vacations. Both of my 2BR weeks combined would barely get a 1BR summer Hawaii week. Is that the way it should be? Is that reality? If it is, then the Marriott point system is not for me.

Many of us bought a Marriott because of the Lock-off option. Most of us have consistently exchanged our Studio for a 1BR or 2BR in the same season during Flex, and still had our 1BR to exchange for something else - basically a free week for the cost of an exchange fee. With the point system, that simply cannot happen any longer. Were we "gaming" the Interval system by doing that?

Even so, why not just join and try it out, as Pooh keeps suggesting? What could it hurt? The worst case is that you have to figure out how to spend your free 800 point bonus, right? I'm not convinced that is the case...

My big problem is that I'm still not certain what signing on the dotted line allows Marriott to do. I keep reading that Marriott somehow is allowed to pull from the Interval pool as it desires. Clearly, if they are allowed to raid the pool for the point-system use, II will die a quick death, and we will all be forced into the point system like-it-or-not. If I do NOT join the point system and deposit my week into the II pool, how can Marriott possibly grab it? What I do imagine is that if I DO join the point system, then that may give them the right to pull my II deposit out of the pool - and that is my fear.

If in fact the act of signing up for the option of having points allows Marriott to sap the II pool, that is a very scary thing. I want to know the answer to that one before I consider enrolling.

You touched on a couple thoughts that I had in the back of my mind, but the most positive thing I could hope for is that Disney and Marriott *may* be considering a long-term partnership. You may recall a rumor from a DisneyWorld shuttle bus driver who had this inside track. Well, suppose he actually did overhear or see something. Suppose that Marriott and Disney are aligning the governance of their respective programs, and that this is just phase 1 of a consolidation that might or might not take place in, oh, 9 years.

I might be much more interested in a combined system.

 

[brianfox]

You touched on a couple thoughts that I had in the back of my mind, but the most positive thing I could hope for is that Disney and Marriott *may* be considering a long-term partnership. You may recall a rumor from a DisneyWorld shuttle bus driver who had this inside track. Well, suppose he actually did overhear or see something. Suppose that Marriott and Disney are aligning the governance of their respective programs, and that this is just phase 1 of a consolidation that might or might not take place in, oh, 9 years.

I might be much more interested in a combined system.

Hmmmm...DVC and Marriott combine....
How would that possibly screw us to the wall further?

I'd bet Marriott would find a way to have our deeds expire in 2042.
I better shut up before I give them any ideas. :ignore:

 

[radmoo]

I spoke w/Marriott rep yesterday as I had deposited my CV March 2011 week w/II on Sat in order to receive bonus week. Of course I had to renew my II dues and then I read about new Marriott all inclusive fee. While the $169 sounds attractive rather than paying "here a fee, there a fee" I'm not sure about this points thing. MY CV week is worth less than what an OP week would cost me in March under the "improved" program. We don't have kids and aren't locked into school vacation weeks so for now the original deposit week plan is a better choice - at least I think it is.

I think current owners have the edge as new buyers will only be offered points option. Clearly the weeks must be advantageous to us and disadvantageous to Marriott. Otherwise, why would they eliminate them or at the very least give new buyers either/or alternative?????

 

[JimIg23]

If much of the inventory that is anticipated to be available to points is going to come from weeks owners who deposit their reserved week into II, the absolute earliest that those weeks will become available to points owners is AFTER the weeks owner makes a reservation (at 13 or 12 months) and deposits the week into II, right?

So, if that is the case, don't weeks owners (those who dont enroll, and those who do enroll but do not elect points for a given year) STILL get first crack at the best weeks?

Or am I missing something?

I realize that there may be issues with availability in II if marriott poaches the deposited weeks for use in the points program, but what I am focused on here is reserving to use.

Could all the speculation of increased competition for home resort reservations from points owners be a red herring, at least at resorts that are sold out, or nearly so, based on my observation?

There is hopefully an agreement with II and Marriott where in Marriott deposits a specific week (that they take out of points allocation) which gives them a certain amount of trading power that is on par with anyone else's trading power of the same week. I would hope that II is respectable enough that that trades will be made as normal, based on trade power and deposit/request status. I don't expect II to bump Marriott lower if their trading power on the specific week is higher than a deeded week. On the other hand, I really hope there is not an agreement that Marriott gets priority even though they deposit a weaker week. I want to assume that II would not do something like that because if it got out, their members would be very upset.

 

[catharsis]

If you use points to relocate you are taking II inventory from non-trust-members.

Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.

So anyone who was wondering

Marriot will fulfill 'points' reservations at non-home resorts by 'plucking' the weeks requested by points owners out of the II pool deposited by weeks owners who want nothing to do with points.

So, when a point user wants to book a week using points, in another marriott, marriot will
1. convert his 'home week' into points, and skim off 7%
2. take a deposited week out of II and give it to this owner.
3. (presumably) give II a shoulder developer owned-week elsewhere as an exchange

Why would II agree to this - it seems like it's a way for Marriot to charge people extra for access to II inventory ?

 

[wuv pooh]

I would not label "successful people" as people who spend more to receive less. However, I can see that many of the benefits stated in this program may be benefits to some and benefit removal for others.

In the end, point program members will have to spend more to get what they want. Whether that is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

That is my only point. On Tug we see the 'success' stories of the current system. I traded my Horizons Gold for Grande Ocean Platinum Ocean Front (I really did ) Marriott hears the complaints from the other side of the trade If I was a betting man I would guess that there were a lot of complaints from people who shelled out $50k for a Hawaii week and only get offered Orlando inventory or lock offs, etc

 

[Slakk]

text deleted

 

[dioxide45]

It seems to a degree that the new system is layering an exchange company on top of an exchange company. If you want to reserve another resort using points and Marriott doesn't have it, they go to II. If II has it, they pony up a couple low end weeks for that high end week and get the week back via the exchange and then confirm the requester in to the resort.

 

[wuv pooh]

This was a very good post, but you went a bit overboard with this. The $100K "investment" deprecated 60% or more after 7 days. This new program depreciates it further. The $100K is long gone and spending $700 is possibly just throwing good money after bad (a-la the link in post #1062 above).

Most people could care less about resale value. They don't plan to sell. They may need to sell at some point, but they do not forsee it. Similar to a car people do not skip a $500 repair, but spend it to keep the functionalilty of the car. If you do not spend the $700 you will potentially seriously impair the functioning of your timeshare in the future. If you spent $1,000 on a resale you might not care, if you spent $100k you will care and the salesman will easily put a doubt in your mind and slip you the low pain solution 'try it out' you have nothing to lose.