Holy Smokes. In Nov/Dec 2019, Four Wyndham Transfers w 1/19 use year

[dgalati]

I think if someone Ovates some but not all of their contracts, they can buy again. Also, I’m pretty sure if someone Ovates their entire account and receives three years of Limited Edition use, they cannot buy again. What I’m not sure we know is whether if someone uses Ovations to get rid of all of their contracts without any free usage, if they could purchase again later.

I just spoke with Ovations and if you use Ovations for one contract or all you will not be able to buy through Wyndham again but you can buy resale. I also asked if you can use Current use year points when giving back through Ovations and was told you can use current use year points but not future use year points without paying $12/1000.

 

[dgalati]

I'm not sure whether there are hard and fast rules for that. It probably depends on the desirability of the contract you are "Ovating."

You can only get 3 years of free use on developer purchased deeds and not all qualify for the 3 years of free use. It is decided on a case by case basis. This is what I was told today by Ovations rep. Call in to find out what is available to your specific ownership PH 855-312-9040

 

[Jan M.]

@Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.”

I understand why this seems inconsistent and unfair to you. A little more background information might be helpful.

Ron P. was the most knowledgeable Wyndham owner we've had here on TUG and he was very generous in sharing what he knew. He gets a lot of respect from many of us for that. You and others who have gained some knowledge unfortunately come across as posers by comparison to Ron. If Ron P. were still an owner it wouldn't be me posting because this whole discussion would never have gone this far. Before I make it sound like he was St. Ron P. let me make it clear that he rubbed a few people wrong from time to time and not everyone always agreed with everything he said when it came to opinions on things. However his knowledge of the directory and what he learned from the execs at the annual owners meetings and individual resort owners meetings was unparalleled. Unlike most of the owners who went to those meetings he wasn't there to meet other owners, eat, drink and be merry. He was there to talk to the execs and network. That was his business background. From what I gathered the execs viewed him more as an equal not just another lowly owner like the rest of us.

The other thing you need to understand is that Ron P. made it very clear that he knew what he was doing with the stripping couldn't last. But I don't believe he every thought it would be the end of everything for him with Wyndham.. He saw an opportunity to start a business that made him money and gave him something to do in retirement. He started with renting and the stripping came later. He had a good run and is a shrewd enough businessman to understand that his run was over and be the first person to make a deal with Wyndham to get out after the Freeze of August 2016. What I always felt sorry for him about was that his greed with the stripping led to him losing the extensive rental business he'd built with the New Orleans resorts. He went into his negotiations with Wyndham hoping to keep the many deeds, a number of fixed weeks for the major New Orleans events, he had at those resorts. Losing his New Orleans rental business was a very hard blow for him. I've wondered if he had it to do over if he would have risked everything he'd built by getting involved in the point stripping.

What you are missing is that even the mightiest can fall. When you mess with Wyndham you shouldn't expect to win because they make the rules.

Several other things to be very clear on.

The book, cancel, re-book at the discount and upgrade was an accepted practice. Let me state once again that I was well aware of how to do this but it was more work and headache than it was worth to me to do it. I don't plan that far ahead and was using our points so not interested in tying them up to do it. Also before they did away with cancelled points when you cancelled reservations they came back as cancelled points and there were limitations on how you could use them. Anyhow, VIP owners didn't believe they were doing anything wrong. The salespeople taught VIP owners to do it. As in if you don't know how to do this then you aren't making the most of your points. There were even VCs who would teach you these things. Many owners bought more points, developer and resale, because they were led to believe there was nothing wrong with doing this. And you and others need to understand that for a number of years the salespeople and VCs were heavily relied on by owners for help in leaning. Especially before there was a website. It was a different time so don't think badly of the owners who say "How can it be wrong when they taught us to do this." I used to joke that I could easily be a Ron P. hater because he could read the directory over once or twice and get it. I believe the majority of owners back then were more like me and despite reading over that directory more times than I care to admit would have been so lost without the salespeople and VCs teaching us.

Wyndham changed the system to once again attempt to control the renting and hurt the megarenters to eliminate the competition for Extra Holidays. Doing so had the added advantage of Wyndham being able to say they listened to those owners who complained. This was Wyndham once again doing an excellent job of spinning something they did for other reasons to make it seem like they were doing it to benefit the owners. I'm not saying there wasn't benefit to many owners, just that it wasn't Wyndham's primary reason for changing the system. Wyndham bought Fairfield in 2008 and the system changes came in 2017. Why did it take nine years for Wyndham to change what had been common practice for years before they took over? Because it didn't suit them to change it before then. As much as the non VIP owners like to be haters about that practice and cast shame, that always seems to come across as envy and sour grapes that someone else got something they didn't but the haters also didn't pay to get VIP either. I'd like to see everyone focusing on who is ultimately responsible for the practice in the first place and allowing it to continue for so long rather than rehashing it to go at each other.

Ron P. and the others doing what he did with buying massive amounts of points, depositing into the now defunct credit pool, using everything and selling off the stripped deeds and contracts had a mentor and contacts inside Wyndham. But do you know how Wyndham found out about what they were doing? Ron P. told Wyndham's legal team about it! Wyndham was looking at people's accounts who had significantly more points in reservations than the number of points they owned. The system was malfunctioning and giving people more points than it should have and if I remember correctly it was happening when some owners would use credit pooled points to book something and cancel the reservation. That was what the Freeze of August 2016 was about. There were owners reporting what was happening to Wyndham months before Wyndham decided to look into it. They set up a program and found that there were owners who had hundreds of thousand to millions more points in reservations than what they owned could account for. Some were owners who figured out how to exploit the glitch and Wyndham was being very hard core in their dealings with anyone they thought might have been doing that. When Ron P. met with Wyndham's legal team in Orlando that was what they thought he had done until he explained what he really did. He made the equivalent of a plea bargain with a non disclosure agreement. Wyndham bought him out at what amount we will never know and he is "no longer an owner" nor ever likely allowed to be again.

 

[paxsarah]

I just spoke with Ovations and if you use Ovations for one contract or all you will not be able to buy through Wyndham again but you can buy resale. I also asked if you can use Current use year points when giving back through Ovations and was told you can use current use year points but not future use year points without paying $12/1000.

From personal experience, Wyndham subtracted current use year points equivalent to what I gave back via Ovations, but I don’t know what they would have done if I hadn’t had enough points available. Would they have let it be, or canceled reservations or charged me $12/k? I don’t know.

I also find it interesting that I was was on a Wyndham vacation while Ovation was in the process of removing my two contracts. I was hit up for updates at 3 of the parking pass desks, but not the fourth. Maybe I was on a do not sell list by that point? Or maybe it was a coincidence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Grammarhero]

I understand why this seems inconsistent and unfair to you. A little more background information might be helpful.

Ron P. was the most knowledgeable Wyndham owner we've had here on TUG and he was very generous in sharing what he knew. He gets a lot of respect from many of us for that. You and others who have gained some knowledge unfortunately come across as posers by comparison to Ron. If Ron P. were still an owner it wouldn't be me posting because this whole discussion would never have gone this far. Before I make it sound like he was St. Ron P. let me make it clear that he rubbed a few people wrong from time to time and not everyone always agreed with everything he said when it came to opinions on things. However his knowledge of the directory and what he learned from the execs at the annual owners meetings and individual resort owners meetings was unparalleled. Unlike most of the owners who went to those meetings he wasn't there to meet other owners, eat, drink and be merry. He was there to talk to the execs and network. That was his business background. From what I gathered the execs viewed him more as an equal not just another lowly owner like the rest of us.

The other thing you need to understand is that Ron P. made it very clear that he knew what he was doing couldn't last. He saw an opportunity to start a business that made him money and gave him something to do in retirement. He had a good run and is a shrewd enough businessman to understand that his run was over and be the first person to make a deal with Wyndham to get out after the Freeze of August 2016. What I always felt sorry for him about was that his greed with the stripping led to him losing the extensive rental business he'd built with the New Orleans resorts. He went into his negotiations with Wyndham hoping to keep the many deeds, a number of fixed weeks for the major New Orleans events, he had at those resorts. Losing his New Orleans rental business was a very hard blow for him. I've wondered if he had it to do over if he would have risked everything he'd built by getting involved in the point stripping.

What you are missing is that even the mightiest can fall. When you mess with Wyndham you shouldn't expect to win because they make the rules.

Several other things to be very clear on.

The book, cancel, re-book at the discount and upgrade was an accepted practice. Let me state once again that I was well aware of how to do this but it was more work and headache than it was worth to me to do it. I don't plan that far ahead and was using our points so not interested in tying them up to do it. Also before they did away with cancelled points when you cancelled reservations they came back as cancelled points and there were limitations on how you could use them. Anyhow, VIP owners didn't believe they were doing anything wrong. The salespeople taught VIP owners to do it. As in if you don't know how to do this then you aren't making the most of your points. There were even VCs who would teach you these things. Many owners bought more points, developer and resale, because they were led to believe there was nothing wrong with doing this. And you and others need to understand that for a number of years the salespeople and VCs were heavily relied on by owners for help in leaning. Especially before there was a website. It was a different time so don't think badly of the owners who say "How can it be wrong when they taught us to do this." I used to joke that I could easily be a Ron P. hater because he could read the directory over once or twice and get it. I believe the majority of owners back then were more like me and despite reading over that directory more times than I care to admit would have been so lost without the salespeople and VCs teaching us.

Wyndham changed the system to once again attempt to control the renting and hurt the megarenters to eliminate the competition for Extra Holidays. Doing so had the added advantage of Wyndham being able to say they listened to those owners who complained. This was Wyndham once again doing an excellent job of spinning something they did for other reasons to make it seem like they were doing it to benefit the owners. I'm not saying there wasn't benefit to many owners, just that it wasn't Wyndham's primary reason for changing the system. Wyndham bought Fairfield in 2008 and the system changes came in 2017. Why did it take nine years for Wyndham to change what had been common practice for years before they took over? Because it didn't suit them to change it before then. As much as the non VIP owners like to be haters about that practice and cast shame, that always seems to come across as envy and sour grapes that someone else got something they didn't and also didn't pay to get. I'd like to see everyone focusing on who is ultimately responsible for the practice in the first place and allowing it to continue for so long rather than rehashing it to go at each other.

Ron P. and the others doing what he did with buying massive amounts of points, depositing into the now defunct credit pool, using everything and selling off the stripped deeds and contracts had a mentor and contacts inside Wyndham. But do you know how Wyndham found out about what they were doing? Ron P. told Wyndham's legal team about it! Wyndham was looking at people's accounts who had significantly more points in reservations than the number of points they owned. The system was malfunctioning and giving people more points than it should have and if I remember correctly it was happening when some owners would use credit pooled points to book something and cancel the reservation. That was what the Freeze of August 2016 was about. There were owners reporting what was happening to Wyndham months before Wyndham decided to look into it. They set up a program and found that there were owners who had hundreds of thousand to millions more points in reservations than what they owned could account for. Some were owners who figured out how to exploit the glitch and Wyndham was being very hard core in their dealings with anyone they thought might have been doing that. When Ron P. met with Wyndham's legal team in Orlando that was what they thought he had done until he explained what he really did. He made the equivalent of a plea bargain with a non disclosure agreement. Wyndham bought him out at what amount we will never know and he is "no longer an owner" nor ever likely allowed to be again.

Thanks for the background. I appreciate your being very fair, patient, and helpful with tips. I plan to go to Star Island and Ocean Walk with the wife and kid.

 

[dgalati]

From personal experience, Wyndham subtracted current use year points equivalent to what I gave back via Ovations, but I don’t know what they would have done if I hadn’t had enough points available. Would they have let it be, or canceled reservations or charged me $12/k? I don’t know.

I also find it interesting that I was was on a Wyndham vacation while Ovation was in the process of removing my two contracts. I was hit up for updates at 3 of the parking pass desks, but not the fourth. Maybe I was on a do not sell list by that point? Or maybe it was a coincidence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wyndham told me no negative balance when returning with Ovations and all you would have to do is call in and they would adjust the points on this issue. I also now understand why Bonnet Creek sales told me he couldn't sell me if he wanted to. I recieved Ovations acceptance letter about a week earlier but I called to let Wyndham know I did not own them for a year which ended the Ovations process.

 

[dgalati]

From personal experience, Wyndham subtracted current use year points equivalent to what I gave back via Ovations, but I don’t know what they would have done if I hadn’t had enough points available. Would they have let it be, or canceled reservations or charged me $12/k? I don’t know.

I also find it interesting that I was was on a Wyndham vacation while Ovation was in the process of removing my two contracts. I was hit up for updates at 3 of the parking pass desks, but not the fourth. Maybe I was on a do not sell list by that point? Or maybe it was a coincidence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was lucky that I called Wyndham on not owning deed for 1 year. I listed the 4 deeds on TUG Marketplace and was contacted by a Wyndham preferred resell broker. @raygo123 I was able to sell all 4 deeds and the third party buyer was Wyndham.

 

[Cyrus24]

beginning in 2020 Wyndham will start charging $12/1000 on any negative balances.

I think we are getting mixed messaged on negative balances following an Ovations transaction. What I hear you saying is that beginning in 2020 if you return a contract and you have no points in your account or reservations to be cancelled that you will be billed $12/1000 for the shortfall (negative balance)? That is different from what the letter they sent you says. Where did you get this information on the $12/1000 with negative balances? Is it in writing or just something that someone said. Anyone considering the Buy/Use/Ovations process would benefit from knowing the rule. I'm not one of those persons, I'm very happy to be where I am as an owner.

 

[Cyrus24]

I cancel and rebook now. I just make sure I book, before I cancel. Do it all the time. I book what I need, then I keep an eye out at 60 days for the points to drop, and as long as there is availability, I can book a room, then cancel the higher point room. I don't see a problem with this.

The current process of book, rebook inside 60 days (if reservation date is available), and cancel is very fair. The rebook dates are open to everyone, no special priority, no games, totally fair. There is absolutely no problem with the current process.

 

[dgalati]

The current process of book, rebook inside 60 days (if reservation date is available), and cancel is very fair. The rebook dates are open to everyone, no special priority, no games, totally fair. There is absolutely no problem with the current process.

LOL i dont disagree but thats what many felt about old system as it was sold as a VIP benefit but was not.

 

[dgalati]

I think we are getting mixed messaged on negative balances following an Ovations transaction. What I hear you saying is that beginning in 2020 if you return a contract and you have no points in your account or reservations to be cancelled that you will be billed $12/1000 for the shortfall (negative balance)? That is different from what the letter they sent you says. Where did you get this information on the $12/1000 with negative balances? Is it in writing or just something that someone said. Anyone considering the Buy/Use/Ovations process would benefit from knowing the rule. I'm not one of those persons, I'm very happy to be where I am as an owner.

Wyndham told me this in a phone conversation that $12/1000 will be charged on a negative balance starting 2020 when selling to a private party and all current use year points have been used and no reservations are available to cancel. I was also told no negative balance when using Ovations and all current use year points have been used and no reservations are available to cancel. I tried to have Wyndham send me a email recapping conversation but they would not do it. Ovations is a moving target. To be sure your ownership qualifies you have to call in and ask. I did call today and verified that current use year points could be used before using Ovation. Wyndham has the right to make changes when ever they choose.

 

[chapjim]

No I didn't accuse you of anything. It's not the real estate laws that matter. That's as easy as giving back a house you bought last year. Your breaking the club rules. As far as Ovations your completely at Wyndham's whims. F Lee Bailey couldn't even help you
As soon as Wyndham pushed the button to see there are no points attached for the use year your busted. But don't worry it will never get that far as Wyndham, has not changed the law, but have the rules. In which all your degrees are rendered useless.all you have to do is try it. All your degrees and research are mute. Is that the right word, mute. Like useless? You have to consider what you don't know rather than what you do know.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk

The word is "moot." Mute would be better for most of this thread.

 

[Braindead]

Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.” That’s what I was responding to.
I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used cancel-rebook scams you have to be scammers. For the record I wasn’t a VIP at that time.

So, according to the Braindead standards ...
Did the OP " advocate or do anything outside of the program guidelines Wyndham set up?"
Did the OP "simply understand the system and use it to full advantage?"
Did the OP "share that knowledge with the rest of us?"
Should the OP be "applauded for this [sharing of knowledge]?"

If Wyndham has not already done so, they accept only deeds with the full Use Year of points available into the Ovation Program. Simple.

The OP of this thread uses Ovations to get very low MFs.
Let’s look at Braindead standards:
1. According to your post, yes the OP advocated outside of the program guidelines.
2. According to your post, no the OP doesn’t understand the system.
3. According to your post, the OP shared false information with the rest of us.
4. According to your post, no the the OP shouldn’t be applauded for sharing false information.

The OP posted information as fact without calling Ovations first to verify if Ovations would take back all 4 deeds or similar deeds at the resorts such as Star Island. You or the OP are posting false information. In fact you both might of posted false information if Ovations take back contracts in January or February with no current use year points along with if Ovations wouldn’t currently take back contracts at resorts such as Star Island.

Whether you liked Ron P or not if he posted something 99.99% you could take that information to the bank!!!
One last thing, why do you think I started my response back then with “I have to back Ron & other renters on this“. That’s because Ron P & I didn’t always agree

 

[cbyrne1174]

Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run. Once you go that route, you can't collect $100-$125 every time you make a reservation by doing an update. The real way of saving money long term is only putting one person on your deed and attending updates by yourself while everyone else is sleeping in. They can't tell you're married if your spouse isn't on the ownership.

I made $550 back this year doing 5 owner updates and rented out $2,700 worth of reservations and used my remaining 273,000 points for vacations. My MF were $2,700. I used more reservation tokens than I had, but overall I made about $400 more than I spent on maintenance fees without having to put anything in my name that I didn't want long term.

 

[dgalati]

Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run. Once you go that route, you can't collect $100-$125 every time you make a reservation by doing an update. The real way of saving money long term is only putting one person on your deed and attending updates by yourself while everyone else is sleeping in. They can't tell you're married if your spouse isn't on the ownership.

I made $550 back this year doing 5 owner updates and rented out $2,700 worth of reservations and used my remaining 273,000 points for vacations. My MF were $2,700. I used more reservation tokens than I had, but overall I made about $400 more than I spent on maintenance fees without having to put anything in my name that I didn't want long term.

Thats what Im talking about. Making your ownership work at a lower $/1000.

 

[Braindead]

Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run.

Your right & that’s why in the OPs & dgalati system you will need to do it repeatedly over the years ahead.

 

[Braindead]

Seems pretty simple to me

1. You should look to buy towards the end of the use year to obtain "free" points. We all should know this already.
2. You should look to get rid of points at the beginning of a use year and possibly use that years points first. We should all know this already
3. Dont abuse those practices and plan to do BOTH from the beginning within just a couple of years. We all should know this already

All agree?

Agree & this is knowledge that I’m talking about

 

[CO skier]

View attachment 15741
Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.”

Yes, it is a fact that I called cancel-rebook (which in 2016 meant cancelling a 13-month or other premium reservation and immediately re-booking for a VIP discount up to 50%) a scam. (Book a 4 bedroom Presidential, and book a studio, then cancel both within the VIP discount window, rebook the studio for a discount and free upgrade to the 4 bedroom Presidential was the ultimate scam).

I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used scams you have to be scammers.

That is the assumption that You made about other owners to reach Your conclusion.

 

[dgalati]

Yes, it is a fact that I called cancel-rebook (which in 2016 meant cancelling a 13-month or other premium reservation and immediately re-booking for a VIP discount up to 50%) a scam. (Book a 4 bedroom Presidential, and book a studio, then cancel both within the VIP discount window, rebook the studio for a discount and upgrade to the 4 bedroom Presidential was the ultimate scam).



That is the assumption that You made about other owners to reach Your conclusion.

If it wasn't abused it would still be available. As a non vip I have found the availability much better without this sold as but never was a benefit. The next thing Wyndham can do to help availability for all owners is to stop the use of resale points for VIP owners when booking in the 50% discount window. Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?

 

[Braindead]

Yes, it is a fact that I called cancel-rebook (which in 2016 meant cancelling a 13-month or other premium reservation and immediately re-booking for a VIP discount up to 50%) a scam. (Book a 4 bedroom Presidential, and book a studio, then cancel both within the VIP discount window, rebook the studio for a discount and free upgrade to the 4 bedroom Presidential was the ultimate scam).



That is the assumption that You made about other owners to reach Your conclusion.

You are still using the term scam today. How can you call it a scam & yet not call all the VIPs that did it scammers?
What other assumption am I & others supposed to come to ??

 

[Braindead]

Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?

Easy, In the directory
Can VIPs cancel a reservation ? Yes
Can a VIP or anyone book that cancelled reservation when it comes back? Yes

Pretty simple & you can still do it today. Only difference is it’s harder today.
You can’t stop it until no owner can cancel a reservation.
If the original owner booked the reservation & the system won’t allow them to see the reservation when it comes back they could have someone else book it if they catch it coming back.

Couple questions for you along these lines:
1. When an owner is going to cancel a reservation & post it here on TUG for anyone of us to try & get it, is that allowed in the directory ?
2. After Voyager was in effect for awhile there was a thread on owners trying to figure out the timing of the cancelled reservations coming back.
Is that allowed in the directory? Was every VIP involved in that thread engaging in a scam?

 

[CO skier]

The next thing Wyndham can do to help availability for all owners is to stop the use of resale points for VIP owners when booking in the 50% discount window. Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?

This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

"Important Information about VIP Membership

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.

 

[CO skier]

You are still using the term scam today. How can you call it a scam & yet not call all the VIPs that did it scammers?
What other assumption am I & others supposed to come to ??

I do not know. Maybe just stick to the facts?

 

[dgalati]

This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

"Important Information about VIP Membership

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.

Thank you for the reply. I guess many VIP Owners may not know it's not a VIP benefit?

 

[Grammarhero]

View attachment 15741
Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.” That’s what I was responding to.
I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used cancel-rebook scams you have to be scammers. For the record I wasn’t a VIP at that time.


The OP of this thread uses Ovations to get very low MFs.
Let’s look at Braindead standards:
1. According to your post, yes the OP advocated outside of the program guidelines.
2. According to your post, no the OP doesn’t understand the system.
3. According to your post, the OP shared false information with the rest of us.
4. According to your post, no the the OP shouldn’t be applauded for sharing false information.

The OP posted information as fact without calling Ovations first to verify if Ovations would take back all 4 deeds or similar deeds at the resorts such as Star Island. You or the OP are posting false information. In fact you both might of posted false information if Ovations take back contracts in January or February with no current use year points along with if Ovations wouldn’t currently take back contracts at resorts such as Star Island.

Whether you liked Ron P or not if he posted something 99.99% you could take that information to the bank!!!
One last thing, why do you think I started my response back then with “I have to back Ron & other renters on this“. That’s because Ron P & I didn’t always agree

The only person posting false information is you. You claim that I am solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF, for which I and other tuggers find hilarious.

I never posted false information. I used the operative word “if.” “If” is hypothetical. If Wyndham won’t take back, I will still be relatively happy. I got one year free usage after all.

You are still a flip-flopper. You were for a strip operation before you were against it.