Holy Smokes. In Nov/Dec 2019, Four Wyndham Transfers w 1/19 use year

[Eric B]

As for Wyndham, here is a link where you can see the current list of filed complaints:


https://dockets.justia.com/search?query=WYNDHAM+VACATION+RESORTS+INC&state=florida


https://www.classaction.org/news/wy...tive-and-misleading-timeshare-sales-practices

It looks like the dockets are filled with allegations of misrepresentation, fraud and abuse of the elderly.


https://dolanlawfirm.com/2016/11/wyndham-vacation-whistleblower-verdict/

I just find it humorous that one attacks an upstanding person like @Grammarhero who has chosen to help vulnerable persons in his practice over the large corporations. I can tell you, this is one fellow who has proven through his chosen practice specialty that he is of the highest caliber or ethics.

If there is a way to maximize your benefit, I say use it. If Wyndham believes they are being abused, I can promise you they will adjust the rules. Don’t worry, Wyndham will protect their interests, both legally and morally. Since they haven’t yet, what @Grammarhero is doing is perfectly fine. Once or if the adjustment from Wyndham happens, I am sure Grammarhero will follow their changed rules whatever they be because that’s the kind of person he is. So, please do not attack a person who demonstrates the highest of integrity.

Nothing I've posted was intended as an attack; instead my intent was to provide more of a warning of likely action by Wyndham to protect their interests. I'm all for maximizing the benefits of using the TS rules as they are set out; I don't feel, however, that it is a prudent to announce how you plan to take advantage of the rules in a public forum then return the contracts to the developer through a program they have control over. We've all seen how the system reacts to perceived threats in the past; it had negative effects on the remainder of users vis-a-vis the changes to the credit pool/points for deposit and the removal of the loophole for cancel and rebook. For better or worse, there are TUG users that have some investment in the VIP benefits that wind up losing out when something like this occurs; there is a relatively minor improvement in the circumstances for the individual taking advantage of the tragedy of the commons and another corresponding minor detriment to the rest of the community when the system reacts. I applaud assisting the vulnerable against large corporations to the extent that we aren't talking about viking ships and things of that sort, of course.

 

[Eric B]

That’s good. Let me reframe. I believe ALL developers and resorts will protect their interests both legally and morally. If they see a flaw in their systems, they have the right to adjust. Every contract I have read has a clause that they reserve the right to change any term at anytime.

So, if you find a benefit of any kind that enhances your usage; use it until or if they decide to change the terms. That is simply maximizing your experience and that’s both legal and morally correct.

Agreed; I would only add that you should shout about the benefits you've discovered from the hilltops only if you really want them to stop being benefits....

 

[Braindead]

That’s good. Let me reframe. I believe ALL developers and resorts will protect their interests both legally and morally. If they see a flaw in their systems, they have the right to adjust. Every contract I have read has a clause that they reserve the right to change any term at anytime.

So, if you find a benefit of any kind that enhances your usage; use it until or if they decide to change the terms. That is simply maximizing your experience and that’s both legal and morally correct.

When you advise an owner to stop paying MFs no matter their financial position, how is that different than using a Viking Ship??
Both ethically & morally correct ??
Who does that hurt the Developers, owners or both developers & owners??

 

[Fredflintstone]

Agreed; I would only add that you should shout about the benefits you've discovered from the hilltops only if you really want them to stop being benefits....

Yes, but I find actions speak louder than words. So, even if you don’t shout a benefit from the hilltops, the actions of a few may alert the resort/developer to make changes anyway.


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[Fredflintstone]

When you advise an owner to stop paying MFs no matter their financial position, how is that different than using a Viking Ship??
Both ethically & morally correct ??
Who does that hurt the Developers, owners or both developers & owners??

It’s not advise...it’s simply my experience coupled with the timeshare laws afforded to me. Viking ship? A Viking ship means you purposefully dump your timeshare unto an entity in efforts to dump the timeshare. That, is illegal and, in my view, immoral.

But, if you maintain your entity and simply utilize the state laws (as real property is state responsibility), you are doing nothing wrong. In my case, I had 9 timeshares. I sold 8 of them for a dollar and paid transfer. In 2 cases I paid a year ahead of MF. In the one case, I tried unsuccessfully for 2 years to sell. I had no luck. I called the resort to negotiate a deed back. They refused and proceeded to threaten me with legal consequences. I offered to pay 2 years MF and the transfer and they refused. So, AS LAST RESORT, I used the non judicial, anti deficiency Florida State laws to deal with it. It was all legal and moral in my mind as I tried very hard to sell the thing and was willing to negotiate with the resort. I should say, from my understanding from a connection, this resort now accepts deed backs. So, my actions, I believe, partly aided in helping owners stuck.

I look at it this way. It is up to the resort to exert their legal rights and up to me to exert mine.


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[Grammarhero]

As for Wyndham, here is a link where you can see the current list of filed complaints:


https://dockets.justia.com/search?query=WYNDHAM+VACATION+RESORTS+INC&state=florida


https://www.classaction.org/news/wy...tive-and-misleading-timeshare-sales-practices

It looks like the dockets are filled with allegations of misrepresentation, fraud and abuse of the elderly.


https://dolanlawfirm.com/2016/11/wyndham-vacation-whistleblower-verdict/

I just find it humorous that one attacks an upstanding person like @Grammarhero who has chosen to help vulnerable persons in his practice over the large corporations. I can tell you, this is one fellow who has proven through his chosen practice specialty that he is of the highest caliber or ethics.

If there is a way to maximize your benefit, I say use it. If Wyndham believes they are being abused, I can promise you they will adjust the rules. Don’t worry, Wyndham will protect their interests, both legally and morally. Since they haven’t yet, what @Grammarhero is doing is perfectly fine. Once or if the adjustment from Wyndham happens, I am sure Grammarhero will follow their changed rules whatever they be because that’s the kind of person he is. So, please do not attack a person who demonstrates the highest of integrity.


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Thanks for your moral support and defense. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Braindead]

But, if you maintain your entity and simply utilize the state laws (as real property is state responsibility), you are doing nothing wrong. In my case, I had 9 timeshares. I sold 8 of them for a dollar and paid transfer. In 2 cases I paid a year ahead of MF. In the one case, I tried unsuccessfully for 2 years to sell. I had no luck. I called the resort to negotiate a deed back. They refused and proceeded to threaten me with legal consequences. I offered to pay 2 years MF and the transfer and they refused. So, AS LAST RESORT, I used the non judicial, anti deficiency Florida State laws to deal with it.

I applaud your ethics & morals in “doing the right thing”.
You PAID 8 out of 9 times to rid yourself of the time TS
1 time “AS LAST RESORT” you used the Florida laws.

Why didn’t you just stop paying the MFs on all 9 to start with if the law states it was legal?? I’d say your ethics & morals didn’t allow you to.

You make my point, you did one as a last resort it seems the advice is the opposite is here on TUG. What state stop paying or if you don’t need a good credit score stop paying is the first advice given here on TUG.

Advice like dgalati or what Grammerhero stated possible here on TUG shouldn’t be tolerated. Illegal no but does that make it right?

 

[Grammarhero]

Deleted

 

[Grammarhero]

@Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.” I haven’t even used my 2020 points yet. I might even keep my GD.

It just seems inconsistent and unfair.

 

[Grammarhero]

I applaud your ethics & morals in “doing the right thing”.
You PAID 8 out of 9 times to rid yourself of the time TS
1 time “AS LAST RESORT” you used the Florida laws.

Why didn’t you just stop paying the MFs on all 9 to start with if the law states it was legal?? I’d say your ethics & morals didn’t allow you to.

You make my point, you did one as a last resort it seems the advice is the opposite is here on TUG. What state stop paying or if you don’t need a good credit score stop paying is the first advice given here on TUG.

Advice like dgalati or what Grammerhero stated possible here on TUG shouldn’t be tolerated. Illegal no but does that make it right?

Wow. Who died and made you the moral police? If you haven’t criticized Ron Parise for similar actions, that is inconsistent.

 

[Braindead]

@Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.” I haven’t even used my 2020 points yet. It just seems inconsistent and unfair.

I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.
Ron took heat for ALL of us loosing the credit pool

 

[Grammarhero]

I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.
Ron took heat for ALL of us loosing the credit pool

You said I couldn’t hold candle compared to Ron Parise. I don’t need to look at your past posts. You certainly didn’t look at mine.

 

[Cyrus24]

It’s not advise...it’s simply my experience coupled with the timeshare laws afforded to me. Viking ship? A Viking ship means you purposefully dump your timeshare unto an entity in efforts to dump the timeshare. That, is illegal and, in my view, immoral.

But, if you maintain your entity and simply utilize the state laws (as real property is state responsibility), you are doing nothing wrong. In my case, I had 9 timeshares. I sold 8 of them for a dollar and paid transfer. In 2 cases I paid a year ahead of MF. In the one case, I tried unsuccessfully for 2 years to sell. I had no luck. I called the resort to negotiate a deed back. They refused and proceeded to threaten me with legal consequences. I offered to pay 2 years MF and the transfer and they refused. So, AS LAST RESORT, I used the non judicial, anti deficiency Florida State laws to deal with it. It was all legal and moral in my mind as I tried very hard to sell the thing and was willing to negotiate with the resort. I should say, from my understanding from a connection, this resort now accepts deed backs. So, my actions, I believe, partly aided in helping owners stuck.

I look at it this way. It is up to the resort to exert their legal rights and up to me to exert mine.


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I applaud your approach to this matter. I reviewed a number of your other posts on the subject of deedback and you are consistent in your view on this matter.
1. have no loan
2. Try to give it away, with incentives, as needed
3. Try to give it back, again with incentives
4. Stop paying MF's, as a last resort.
You were also very clear in doing the right thing, acknowledging that going straight to step 4 can impact all owners. Having been a neighborhood HOA treasurer, I can vouch for how painful it can be on the neighborhood when members of the HOA don't pay. I don't want to be that guy in my neighborhood and don't really want to be that guy in the TS community. In your case, it was obvious that you did not want to be 'that guy' either. I applaud your approach to this matter.

 

[Grammarhero]

I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.
Ron took heat for ALL of us loosing the credit pool

If there’s anybody that should research before accusations, it’s @raygo123, who accused me of illegal or prohibited conduct without researching Florida laws. Of course, you will excuse raygo’s conduct while criticizing me for not doing enough research.

 

[Cyrus24]

You said I couldn’t hold candle compared to Ron Parise. I don’t need to look at your past posts. You certainly didn’t look at mine.

I was new to TUG at the time the Credit Pool was eliminated. I listened to the almighty RP and held my breath from saying much as I was new. While I can not fault him for doing what he did, I sure as hell can blame him for many of the changes since his scheme was discovered and stopped. You do not want to be like RP, he was the TS god to some and the TS devil to others. My fear is that what you are doing, legally, will come back to bite us via new and/or more rigid rules.

 

[Jan M.]

I've skipped over reading every single response in this thread so I apologize in advance if someone else has already brought up some of what I'm posting.

Ovations doesn't take everything back; that much we do know. And what they are taking back has changed and will do so again in the future. The Star Island points stand the most chance of being the one that they won't take back. That is just a guess on my part.

At one time Ovations wasn't taking some?/anything? back unless it had the full use year points. Another guess on my part is that if you were wanting to give something back and waited until towards the end of the use year that would be okay because you would have paid almost the entire year's maintenance fees on those points.

All the contracts came through before the end of 2019. All with a January 1 use year? As I understand the hypothetical time line it goes like this.

2019 points. Not being VIP the best use of the points is to deposit them into RCI. Yes you will pay the current $239 exchange fee when you book a week with those points. I see a lot of you saying but that costs me extra money. Many owners get some great stays with their RCI deposits. A friend recently scored the week of April 4th, so checking out the day before Easter Sunday, at Disney World Animal Kingdom Lodge, Kidani Village, in a savanna view unit. At that resort the one bedroom units have two full bathrooms and sleep 5. So she deposited 105,000 points and paid the $239 exchange fee for a very prime week. We have stayed in those units several times and let me tell you that I will take that deal she got any time!

2020 points. Book and use

2021 points. Borrow during 2020 and use. Yes you can borrow and use an entire use year's points before that use year starts.

Give back through Ovations. Will ovations take those contracts/deeds back before the end of 2021 because there are no points available and the maintenance fees have not been paid on them? Btw that is the accepted definition of a stripped deed or contract. Two things come into play at this point. If it is early in 2021 it is in my opinion very doubtful that Ovations will take it back unless you are willing to pay $12 per thousand for those points. It would be cheaper to just keep paying the maintenance fees until the end of the year. That leads to the other issue. What does Grammarhero have that Wyndham really wants that would induce them to them to take it back at a disadvantage to them? Honestly, nothing. Both Star Island and Ocean Walk have high maintenance fees. Wyndham was at one point dumping a lot of those points into CWA because they were harder to sell. Take a look on eBay and look at what CWA contracts are selling for. Some of the listings are for close to half a million points to over 1M points. Wyndham can, and from what we've heard does, through another party pick up those points cheaply. His Grand Desert points are the best thing he has because of the lower maintenance fees. But again look at how many listings there are on eBay, TUG, Sumday Vacations, etc. for points at Grand Desert. For anyone wanting to investigate what I'm saying, right now there isn't a lot listed on eBay but you can get an idea from looking at the completed/sold listings. Right now is a buyers market because of the holidays and most people not having extra money to buy timeshares.

An excellent point that OP in this thread made is that free or cheap aren't always a good deal.

Fwiw I didn't think this was Grammarhero's actual plan. At least I hope not because I have to agree with others that it isn't likely to work out. I assumed that Grammarhero was just having some fun playing with the numbers and thinking about possibilities.

 

[Grammarhero]

I was new to TUG at the time the Credit Pool was eliminated. I listened to the almighty RP and held my breath from saying much as I was new. While I can not fault him for doing what he did, I sure as hell can blame him for many of the changes since his scheme was discovered and stopped. You do not want to be like RP, he was the TS god to some and the TS devil to others. My fear is that what you are doing, legally, will come back to bite us via new and/or more rigid rules.

I will definitely think about this one year and one month down the line.

 

[Grammarhero]

I've skipped over reading every single response in this thread so I apologize in advance if someone else has already brought up some of what I'm posting.

Ovations doesn't take everything back that much we do know. And what they are taking back has changed and will do so again in the future. The Star Island points stand the most chance of being the one that they won't take back. That is just a guess on my part.

At one time Ovations wasn't taking some?/anything? back unless it had the full use year points. Another guess on my part is that if you were wanting to give something back and waited until towards the end of the use year that would be okay because you would have paid almost the entire year's maintenance fees on those points.

All the contracts came through before the end of 2019. All with a January 1 use year? As I understand the hypothetical time line it goes like this.

2019 points. Not being VIP the best use of the points is to deposit them into RCI. Yes you will pay the current $239 exchange fee when you book a week with those points. I see a lot of you saying but that costs me extra money. Many owners get some great stays with their RCI deposits. A friend recently scored the week of April 4th, so checking out the day before Easter Sunday, at Disney World Animal Kingdom Lodge, Kidani Village, in a savanna view unit. At that resort the one bedroom units have two full bathrooms and sleep 5. So she deposited 105,000 points and paid the $239 exchange fee for a very prime week. We have stayed in those units several times and let me tell you that I will take that deal she got any time!

2020 points. Book and use

2021 points. Borrow during 2020 and use. Yes you can borrow and use an entire use year's points before that use year starts.

Give back through Ovations. Will ovations take those contracts/deeds back before the end of 2021 because there are no points available and the maintenance fees have not been paid on them? Btw that is the accepted definition of a stripped deed or contract. Two things come into play at this point. If it is early in 2021 it is in my opinion very doubtful that Ovations will take it back unless you are willing to pay $12 per thousand for those points. It would be cheaper to just keep paying the maintenance fees until the end of the year. That leads to the other issue. What does Grammarhero have that Wyndham really wants that would induce them to them to take it back at a disadvantage to them? Honestly, nothing. Both Star Island and Ocean Walk have high maintenance fees. Wyndham was at one point dumping a lot of those points into CWA because they were harder to sell. Take a look on eBay and look at what CWA contracts are selling for. Some of the listings are for close to half a million points to over 1M points. Wyndham can, and from what we've heard does, through another party pick up those points cheaply. His Grand Desert points are the best thing he has because of the lower maintenance fees. But again look at how many listings there are on eBay, TUG, Sumday Vacations, etc. for points at Grand Desert. For anyone wanting to investigate what I'm saying, right now there isn't a lot listed on eBay but you can get an idea from looking at the completed/sold listings. Right now is a buyers market because of the holidays and most people not having extra money to buy timeshares.

An excellent point that OP in this thread made is that free or cheap aren't always a good deal.

Fwiw I didn't think this was Grammarhero's actual plan. At least I hope not because I have to agree with others that it isn't likely to work out. I assumed that Grammarhero was just having some fun playing with the numbers and thinking about possibilities.

It wasn’t actually my plan at the outset. Just a possibility in case life changes and my wife’s boss keeps torpedoing our Ts vacations. Yes, I took Star Island, CWA, and Ocean Walk with one year free usage. If Wyndham doesn’t take back, I at least got one year free usage and can be happy with that. I actually like my GD very much.

 

[bendadin]

.

 

[Eric B]

When you advise an owner to stop paying MFs no matter their financial position, how is that different than using a Viking Ship??
Both ethically & morally correct ??
Who does that hurt the Developers, owners or both developers & owners??

Don't forget the HOAs. It costs something to foreclose and resell an ownership and the developer likely makes any profits off the resale, while the HOAs wind up covering the unpaid MFs, foreclosure cost, etc. That should provide an incentive to take deedbacks, but doesn't always get acted upon because the costs are passed on to the MF paying owners while it doesn't really hurt the developer/sales folks.

 

[Grammarhero]

this thread made me realize my Wyndham actions may affect other Wyndham owners. Thus, I will think carefully before any actions.

@SNA27 at one point, you thought that most tuggers supported Wyndham “strip schemes.” This thread shows most tuggers are against “strip schemes.” That should restore your faith in the tug community.

 

[Fredflintstone]

Don't forget the HOAs. It costs something to foreclose and resell an ownership and the developer likely makes any profits off the resale, while the HOAs wind up covering the unpaid MFs, foreclosure cost, etc. That should provide an incentive to take deedbacks, but doesn't always get acted upon because the costs are passed on to the MF paying owners while it doesn't really hurt the developer/sales folks.

I Agree. You are right in that resorts are too easy to think the bills pass on to their owners so who cares? I could go on with my opinions on that topic but won’t in this post.

I know some resorts charge 2 years of MF plus cost of deed back which I think is fair. That way, owners are least impacted.

I applaud those resorts who accept deedbacks even at a cost to the owner who wants out.

There has to be ways for people to get out the right way. If they have no options, they turn to looking at Statute to see their other options that may or may not affect other owners.

Here’s a great blog by Finn Law Group on the dilemmas owners face and an opinion that deedbacks benefit everyone as well as foreclosures benefitting developers and resorts:


https://www.finnlawgroup.com/the-timeshare-foreclosure-fiasco/

@Grammarhero, you are welcome and deserving of my comments. You are a stand up guy with impeccable integrity. The legal work you have done here for free and the work you do in your practice to help those disabled or injured and vulnerable tells me what a great lawyer and person you are.


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[ecwinch]

MODERATOR NOTE

Just want to drop in with a moderator note, and remind everyone that while differences of opinion are certainly to be expected, that everyone is expected to ensure their posts conform to the rules that everyone agreed to when they joined this site. In particular:


Be Courteous

As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!

Now in the spirit of the holidays and being courteous, if certain members could review and self-edit some of their prior posts it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Braindead]

I didn't think this was Grammarhero's actual plan. At least I hope not because I have to agree with others that it isn't likely to work out. I assumed that Grammarhero was just having some fun playing with the numbers and thinking about possibilities.

Credit pool was exploited by some.
Credit pool gets shut down.
Ovations gets exploited by some.
Then what happens??

You might think that your ownership is trash, but myself and many, many others on this board DO NOT THINK THAT THEIR OWNERSHIP IS TRASH!!!

If you don't like it, then get out and don't let the door hit you in the behind!

this thread made me realize my Wyndham actions may affect other Wyndham owners. Thus, I will think carefully before any actions.

@SNA27 at one point, you thought that most tuggers supported Wyndham “strip schemes.” This thread shows most tuggers are against “strip schemes.” That should restore your faith in the tug community.

All of you touch on what I think is wrong with this whole thread.
What starts out looking so innocent turns into a exploitation used by many that gets out of hand like the credit pool did.
I don’t think many here realize how many read TUG that never post.
What looks isolated that 1 or 2 owners are doing or thinking of doing is picked up by many that didn’t post in this thread.

So what happens now:
We all complain on how long it takes resell contracts to transfer.
Now this Ovation exploitation might add months to the Ovations process. That only hurts the owners wanting out for the right reasons.
Is Wyndham going to have to start researching an owners account that wants to use Ovations?

Grammerhero you use the word scheme, are schemes legal or within the rules? Yes most of the time.
But when those schemes are shut down are the ramifications—rule changes that effect all of us worth it ? No
How many thousands of TS owners stop paying MFs due to what they read in your post? We don’t know

Is TUG the place for schemes?? I don’t think it should be
Knowledge doesn’t have to be used to scheme or exploit

 

[Fredflintstone]

MODERATOR NOTE

Just want to drop in with a moderator note, and remind everyone that while differences of opinion are certainly to be expected, that everyone is expected to ensure their posts conform to the rules that everyone agreed to when they joined this site. In particular:


Be Courteous

As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!

Now in the spirit of the holidays and being courteous, if certain members could review and self-edit some of their prior posts it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Moderator, IMO, this thread should be closed. Thank you.


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