Bought Wyndham CWA retail, still within rescission window, urgent questions!

[ruebixcube]

My husband and I purchased a Wyndham CWA contract over the weekend, thinking that buying retail offered benefits for long term ownership versus buying resell points. We purchased 126,000 points with 2 year VIP status, received 2 RCI weeks and 174,000 one-time bonus points. We have spent hours in the forum reading so much great information but needed some clear answers to our specific questions if anyone has time. We are both in our mid-thirties, currently vacation frequently with our two children, and have friends and extended family that often join us. We plan on working the system to our benefit in any way possible.

1. There has been mention that over the long term (greater than 20 years) there becomes a point that retail points may save money over resell points, I cannot figure out why. My understanding is that CWA points purchased either way are assessed the same MFs and the program fee is a flat rate up to 231,000 points where then it becomes .58 for resell and .60 for retail per 1k points. Can someone clarify if there is any benefit in overall cost to buy retail over resell when planning on utilizing the timeshare for greater than 20 years?

2. Other than purchasing a minimum amount of points through a developer to utilize the PIC program to gain VIP status, is there any other reason to purchase retail points. Any benefit that can never be had with resell points?

3. Has anyone been treated poorly by Wyndham when holding resell points versus developer points? Are you the red-headed step child?

4. Is the RCI membership included in the Wyndham program fee? Do you pay anything additional to RCI or Wyndham with resell points that you don't with developer points?

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[amycurl]

Rescind NOW, and get all of your questions answered LATER. The benefits are NOT worth the thousands and thousands of dollars that you will save picking up these points on the resale market.

I'll let the Wyndham experts come by later and answer your questions point-by-point. But every single one of them will agree with my statement above.

 

[silentg]

What resort is Wyndham CWA?

 

[ruebixcube]

What resort is Wyndham CWA?

It is not a resort, it is a point system that has about 60 home resorts and an averaged MF structure. It's not a deeded property.

 

[CO skier]

My husband and I purchased a Wyndham CWA contract over the weekend, thinking that buying retail offered benefits for long term ownership versus buying resell points. We purchased 126,000 points with 2 year VIP status, received 2 RCI weeks and 174,000 one-time bonus points. We have spent hours in the forum reading so much great information but needed some clear answers to our specific questions if anyone has time. We are both in our mid-thirties, currently vacation frequently with our two children, and have friends and extended family that often join us. We plan on working the system to our benefit in any way possible.

1. There has been mention that over the long term (greater than 20 years) there becomes a point that retail points may save money over resell points, I cannot figure out why.

2. Other than purchasing a minimum amount of points through a developer to utilize the PIC program to gain VIP status, is there any other reason to purchase retail points. Any benefit that can never be had with resell points?

3. Has anyone been treated poorly by Wyndham when holding resell points versus developer points? Are you the red-headed step child?

4. Is the RCI membership included in the Wyndham program fee? Do you pay anything additional to RCI or Wyndham with resell points that you don't with developer points?

Thank you in advance for your help!

1. At 126,000 points, there is no point where retail points will save money over resale points. I doubt that even 50% discounts for every reservation at the VIP Platinum level would come out ahead at a 20-year comparison. Where did you read this?

2. No. Nothing, at least, that would justify the developer pricing.

3. I own only resale points. I have never been treated poorly or as a second class owner. The sales weasels will want to make you think resale is "second class" or "unqualified" or some kind of malarkey, but resale points work just like developer purchases.

4. Yes

4. (b) Do you pay anything additional to RCI or Wyndham with resell points that you don't with developer points? No.

Rescind the weekend purchase while you can. Then take your time to understand Club Wyndham and buy resale.

 

[Jan M.]

You won't get the World Mark stays, Plus Partners, with resale but you also won't be paying the higher program fee to have it either.

You won't be treated differently because your points are resale.

You will still get a free RCI account even with resale.

If you do decide you see yourself going the PIC Plus route to have VIP benefits you might want to rescind this deal and get a deal that allows you to enroll two PIC Plus weeks right off the bat instead of spending more money to do it later.

Whether you decide to buy developer points and get the two PIC Plus weeks or go the resale point route you should give some thought about whether you would be better off with deeded points at a lower maintenance fee resort or higher maintenance fees with CWA points. That decision would be based on how you will use your points. Do you need high demand weeks at a high demand resort? Or are you more flexible in your travel plans and prefer to go when the resorts aren't as busy. CWA does give you APR, Advance Reservation Priority, which is the ability to book at the furthest window out, at all of the resorts that have inventory in CWA, Club Wyndham Access. When you have deeded points, CWS, Club Wyndham Select, you only have that ARP at the resort where you own. Some owners have found it beneficial to have some deeded points at lower maintenance fee resorts and some CWA points.

There are many happy owners both VIP and resale. I'm going to add that I find the decision to be either a personal decision and not everyone is objective about it when they give their opinions.

 

[ruebixcube]

1. At 126,000 points, there is no point where retail points will save money over resale points. I doubt that even 50% discounts for every reservation at the VIP Platinum level would come out ahead at a 20-year comparison. Where did you read this?

2. No. Nothing, at least, that would justify the developer pricing.

3. I own only resale points. I have never been treated poorly or as a second class owner. The sales weasels will want to make you think resale is "second class" or "unqualified" or some kind of malarkey, but resale points work just like developer purchases.

4. Yes

4. (b) Do you pay anything additional to RCI or Wyndham with resell points that you don't with developer points? No.

Rescind the weekend purchase while you can. Then take your time to understand Club Wyndham and buy resale.

It is on page 2-4 of this thread, I am not very savvy in timeshares yet, but this seemed to indicate there may be benefits financially to buy retail, but again, I cannot quite understand the spreadsheets and rationale behind it.

tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-wyndham-timeshare-owner-within-cancellation-period-need-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3

 

[CO skier]

It is on page 2-4 of this thread, I am not very savvy in timeshares yet, but this seemed to indicate there may be benefits financially to buy retail, but again, I cannot quite understand the spreadsheets and rationale behind it.

tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-wyndham-timeshare-owner-within-cancellation-period-need-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3

The analysis involved the PIC program, which I understand could be discontinued at any time.

A 15-20 year minimum commitment if you purchase just the right, lowest-cost Wyndham and PIC contracts to save a few hundred dollars each year versus a resale purchase? Too much hassle and money for me. YMMV.

At a 126,000 point ownership you will absolutely come out ahead buying resale points versus developer points.

 

[ecwinch]

It is on page 2-4 of this thread, I am not very savvy in timeshares yet, but this seemed to indicate there may be benefits financially to buy retail, but again, I cannot quite understand the spreadsheets and rationale behind it.

tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-wyndham-timeshare-owner-within-cancellation-period-need-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3

Dont get bogged down in the details of what you purchased - that is a problem for tomorrow. Today's problem is that you made a large dollar purchase without being able to adequately vet the claims that the salesperson made. That is not your fault - that is exactly what the "one-stop close" sales process is designed to do.

Follow the instructions to rescind (from here or in your paperwork). Then take the time to research what is best for you. Whatever deal you believe you got can be had tomorrow.

You have one chance to rescind and a million chances to buy. Dont miss that chance.

 

[paxsarah]

It is on page 2-4 of this thread, I am not very savvy in timeshares yet, but this seemed to indicate there may be benefits financially to buy retail, but again, I cannot quite understand the spreadsheets and rationale behind it.

tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-wyndham-timeshare-owner-within-cancellation-period-need-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3

That all assumes VIP status and discounts gained through retail purchases. Currently, silver VIP starts at 400k points, gold at 700k, and platinum at 1 million. There is zero financial benefit to buying retail below 400k, and there is an argument that it would be extremely difficult to even make the current silver benefits pay off over time.

 

[ruebixcube]

We live on the west coast and there seems to be more Worldmark resorts here, but we like the idea of points because we travel to Disney, Hawaii, and have plans to do New York and some international. It seems that the CWA has more flexibility than the deeded properties, but that will take research. We have drafted our letter and will be sending it. We knew that we could rescind, so we purchased in case it really was as good as they were saying, knowing that the resell market may be where we ended up. They made it sound like using resell points would be difficult and lack any of the shiny benefits they were highlighting. Why is it that we cannot use resell points towards Worldmark but you can use retail points?

 

[ruebixcube]

You won't get the World Mark stays, Plus Partners, with resale but you also won't be paying the higher program fee to have it either.

You won't be treated differently because your points are resale.

You will still get a free RCI account even with resale.

If you do decide you see yourself going the PIC Plus route to have VIP benefits you might want to rescind this deal and get a deal that allows you to enroll two PIC Plus weeks right off the bat instead of spending more money to do it later.

Whether you decide to buy developer points and get the two PIC Plus weeks or go the resale point route you should give some thought about whether you would be better off with deeded points at a lower maintenance fee resort or higher maintenance fees with CWA points. That decision would be based on how you will use your points. Do you need high demand weeks at a high demand resort? Or are you more flexible in your travel plans and prefer to go when the resorts aren't as busy. CWA does give you APR, Advance Reservation Priority, which is the ability to book at the furthest window out, at all of the resorts that have inventory in CWA, Club Wyndham Access. When you have deeded points, CWS, Club Wyndham Select, you only have that ARP at the resort where you own. Some owners have found it beneficial to have some deeded points at lower maintenance fee resorts and some CWA points.

There are many happy owners both VIP and resale. I'm going to add that I find the decision to be either a personal decision and not everyone is objective about it when they give their opinions.

Why are we not able to stay at Worldmark properties with resell points? Is it part of the Plus Partners?

 

[ecwinch]

Why are we not able to stay at Worldmark properties with resell points? Is it part of the Plus Partners?

You will not be able to book Worldmark properties with resale points - this is true.

What is also true, is that for what you are paying for your purchase - you could buy both a Club Wyndham membership AND a Worldmark membership on the resale market - and likely pay for 10 years of annual dues with the money you would save. And still save money.

Those are all good questions. But the only immediate deadline you face is the exercising your right to rescind. If you rescind and later decide you made a mistake, you will be able to buy exactly what you have purchased plus any incentives they gave you. If do not rescind and later decide you made a mistake you will be out of thousands and thousands of dollars.

 

[ecwinch]

We live on the west coast and there seems to be more Worldmark resorts here, but we like the idea of points because we travel to Disney, Hawaii, and have plans to do New York and some international. It seems that the CWA has more flexibility than the deeded properties, but that will take research. We have drafted our letter and will be sending it. We knew that we could rescind, so we purchased in case it really was as good as they were saying, knowing that the resell market may be where we ended up. They made it sound like using resell points would be difficult and lack any of the shiny benefits they were highlighting. Why is it that we cannot use resell points towards Worldmark but you can use retail points?

If you live on the west coast, you will find a small WM resale membership to be a far better purchase. It will cost you around $2k or less, and will be a good way to "dip your toe" into the timeshare pool and figure out if timeshares are a good fit for how you like to vacation. Lots of people buy and then later realize that they cannot get value out of their purchase because they cannot plan far enough ahead and/or dont have a lot of flexibility.

You cannot use resell points towards WM, because that is a developer program and they determine eligibility for the program.

As a WM member, you can join RCI and have the opportunity to book Disney as if you bought from Wyndham. Which is far more limited than they would have you believe. Which is the same for CWA members ability to book Worldmark.

Because what they did not tell you is that Worldmark members start booking their resorts 13 months out. Club Wyndham members with developer points, can start booking Worldmark resorts 9 months out. Which results in very limited ability to book the most popular Worldmark resorts (i.e. West Yellowstone, Depoe Bay-OR, etc).

 

[HitchHiker71]

I agree with everyone else. Rescind now and then do your due diligence. Rent from other Wyndham VIP owners to determine if you like the resorts. Buy resale if you determine you want to be an owner. You can always decide to pursue VIP ownership levels at any future point in time. You only have a few days to rescind as others have indicated.

Search for my handle and find my thread from last year when I went through this exact same scenario and rescinded. I then performed my own due diligence and bought back in via telesales with two PIC contracts for VIPG with temp VIPP for two years through Sept 2020. Never buy developer points from the resorts, 99% of the time they are more expensive than telesales IME.

Feel free to ask questions here at any point. We are all here to help in any way that we can!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CO skier]

What is also true, is that for what you are paying for your purchase - you could buy both a Club Wyndham membership AND a Worldmark membership on the resale market - and likely pay for 10 years of annual dues with the money you would save. And still save money.

ruebixcube, forget about incomprehensible spreadsheets. 10 years of "free" Wyndham vacations (resale purchase versus a retail purchase of 126,000 Wyndham points) -- sign me up!

 

[ecwinch]

ruebixcube, forget about incomprehensible spreadsheets. 10 years of "free" Wyndham vacations (resale purchase versus a retail purchase of 126,000 Wyndham points) -- sign me up!

Maybe one of our math experts could do that spreadsheet.... as I was just doing a quick and dirty calculation of:

Resale purchase of WM 6k credits = $2k
Resale purchase of CWA 126k pts = $1k
10 years of WM dues = $10k
10 years of CWA dues = $10k
Total = $23k

Retail purchase of 126k CWA points = $18k
10 years of CWA dues = $10k
Incentives = -$4k (value)
Total = $24k

 

[CO skier]

Maybe one of our math experts could do that spreadsheet.... as I was just doing a quick and dirty calculation of:

Just to be clear, my "incomprehensible spreadsheet" reference was in response to the thread linked by ruebixcube

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3#post-2159441

 

[ecwinch]

Just to be clear, my "incomprehensible spreadsheet" reference was in response to the thread linked by ruebixcube

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3#post-2159441

I got that.... I was just having a high school trig flashback and wanted to show my work....

 

[bnoble]

Rescind NOW, and get all of your questions answered LATER.

This. If you decide you want to get the deal you have now again later, they will almost certainly write it up again. But, if you decide later you don't want what you have now, you can't undo it.

 

[jwalk03]

You only have one very small limited window chance to rescind- USE IT! Then after you rescind you will have all the time in the world to research and learn and make an informed buying decision instead of the very risky unwise impulse decision the sales weasels got you to make. Rescind now.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It is on page 2-4 of this thread, I am not very savvy in timeshares yet, but this seemed to indicate there may be benefits financially to buy retail, but again, I cannot quite understand the spreadsheets and rationale behind it.

tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-wyndham-timeshare-owner-within-cancellation-period-need-some-quick-advice.275991/page-3

This was my original thread that I referenced in my post above. When we talk about timeshare expenditures - the value in timesharing comes over the long term. The longer you own a timeshare, generally the more cost effective your "per vacation" investment becomes. In that thread listed above, I ended up deciding to purchase developer points using two PIC contracts because, assuming all things being equal, the long term costs beat out buying resale over a 20 year period. This is primarily because the MFs for PIC properties are significantly lower than Wyndham MFs. Let's run my scenario using current assumptions:

Resale purchase of CWA 718k pts = $5k
20 years of CWA MFs = $85k
Total = $90k

Retail purchase of 210k CWA pts = $28k
Resale purchase of 508k PIC pts = $0
20 years of CWA MFs = $25k
10 years of PIC MFs = $32.2k
Total = $85.2k

Retail purchase of 718k CWA pts = $92k
20 years of CWA MFs = $85k
Total = $177k

The numbers above don't account for any changes in programs, changes in MFs over time (all things being equal assuming average inflationary increases this wouldn't change the results), or the "value" of VIP discount bookings and automatic upgrades. The clear lesson that I learned when doing my due diligence is that buying resale beats out buying developer points every time. The only option that shows any potential cost advantage over a long term 20 year time window is to obtain VIPG with a relatively small developer points purchase combined with two PIC contracts using PIC properties that offer significantly lower MFs. For example, my two PIC properties MF rates are $2.96/1000 and $3.38/1000 (not including Wyndham program fees).

When making decisions like this, I make decisions based upon the reality on the ground today, not what might or might not happen in years to come since no one can predict the future. The fact is that PIC has been around for well over 20 years, and has not really changed at all. Could it change? Sure, but almost every program at Wyndham is subject to change , some even deprecation, at any time - including VIP - which is changing to Privileges in 2020 with as yet undefined changes to benefits. So we should really put aside these types of arguments at least IMHO.

My current quandary is that we will lose VIPP benefits in Sept 2020, dropping down to VIPG. We have used the VIPP 50% discount window quite a bit for bookings since we became members in July 2018. Probably about 50% of our points usage has been within the discount window - and we have almost always received instant automatic upgrades as well. I've been trying to figure out another cost effective way to add 282k developer points, but the loopholes that have existed previously seem to no longer be available. The only valid option I've found is piggyback contracts, but going this route would require another significant dollar outlay (probably around 25k). Running the same numbers above, I cannot make even the longer term metrics work in my favor. As a result, I'm probably going to simply purchase resale to add more points to my account if/when necessary, to offset the loss of discount window points and instant auto-upgrades. So basically what I'm running into is the fact that buying resale beats out buying developer points every time - even discounted piggyback contract points.

 

[ruebixcube]

Thank you everyone for all of your help. We will be sending our letter today. I will be posting some other questions in the Wyndham and Worldmark threads, looking forward to learning more about the resale market!

 

[ruebixcube]

This was my original thread that I referenced in my post above. When we talk about timeshare expenditures - the value in timesharing comes over the long term. The longer you own a timeshare, generally the more cost effective your "per vacation" investment becomes. In that thread listed above, I ended up deciding to purchase developer points using two PIC contracts because, assuming all things being equal, the long term costs beat out buying resale over a 20 year period. This is primarily because the MFs for PIC properties are significantly lower than Wyndham MFs. Let's run my scenario using current assumptions:

Resale purchase of CWA 718k pts = $5k
20 years of CWA MFs = $85k
Total = $90k

Retail purchase of 210k CWA pts = $28k
Resale purchase of 508k PIC pts = $0
20 years of CWA MFs = $25k
10 years of PIC MFs = $32.2k
Total = $85.2k

Retail purchase of 718k CWA pts = $92k
20 years of CWA MFs = $85k
Total = $177k

The numbers above don't account for any changes in programs, changes in MFs over time (all things being equal assuming average inflationary increases this wouldn't change the results), or the "value" of VIP discount bookings and automatic upgrades. The clear lesson that I learned when doing my due diligence is that buying resale beats out buying developer points every time. The only option that shows any potential cost advantage over a long term 20 year time window is to obtain VIPG with a relatively small developer points purchase combined with two PIC contracts using PIC properties that offer significantly lower MFs. For example, my two PIC properties MF rates are $2.96/1000 and $3.38/1000 (not including Wyndham program fees).

When making decisions like this, I make decisions based upon the reality on the ground today, not what might or might not happen in years to come since no one can predict the future. The fact is that PIC has been around for well over 20 years, and has not really changed at all. Could it change? Sure, but almost every program at Wyndham is subject to change , some even deprecation, at any time - including VIP - which is changing to Privileges in 2020 with as yet undefined changes to benefits. So we should really put aside these types of arguments at least IMHO.

My current quandary is that we will lose VIPP benefits in Sept 2020, dropping down to VIPG. We have used the VIPP 50% discount window quite a bit for bookings since we became members in July 2018. Probably about 50% of our points usage has been within the discount window - and we have almost always received instant automatic upgrades as well. I've been trying to figure out another cost effective way to add 282k developer points, but the loopholes that have existed previously seem to no longer be available. The only valid option I've found is piggyback contracts, but going this route would require another significant dollar outlay (probably around 25k). Running the same numbers above, I cannot make even the longer term metrics work in my favor. As a result, I'm probably going to simply purchase resale to add more points to my account if/when necessary, to offset the loss of discount window points and instant auto-upgrades. So basically what I'm running into is the fact that buying resale beats out buying developer points every time - even discounted piggyback contract points.

Thank you for this detailed explanation. I have been able to gain a lot of knowledge by reading other threads, but sometimes I need to have my specific question answer clearly instead of trying to put the pieces together through the answers to other people's questions. You all have been very helpful.

 

[TUGBrian]

congrats on finding TUG to get the answers you needed to rescind and save a fortune!

how much was the original contract for so we can track it on our chart of rescission dollars!