2024 Maintenance Fees DISCUSSION THREAD

[dioxide45]

All three, Spicebush, Swallowtail and Monarch, plus several private homes, were established/developed by American Resorts Group, Inc and sold as a package to Marriott, Int'l in 1984, which became the Marriott Vacation Club segment under the umbrella. Spicebush and Swallowtail later separated when the MVCI brand standards were challenged. I don't know what happened with the individual homes - I wonder if those are the properties adjacent to Grande Ocean that have rights to GO's amenities??

Anyway, that's why I say Monarch was the first, although technically it was only one of the first.

I believe Monarch was also the newest resort of the three? Was it still under development when Marriott bought American Resorts?

 

[SueDonJ]

I believe Monarch was also the newest resort of the three? Was it still under development when Marriott bought American Resorts?

I think so, yes, Monarch's construction wasn't completed until after the acquisition.

 

[pedro47]

So one way or another, all Florida timeshare owners are going to see at least one major increase in their MF’s. Since Abound trust point fees had a significant increase, I’m guessing the trust will be voting to go ahead with fully funding the reserves.

I doubt this will cut into the BOD and GM’s pet projects at Ocean Pointe. The anticipated increase without fully funding is projected to be 10-15%. They’ll still get their share. I had always felt the average 5-6% increases were out of line with reality. Now with inflation they’re really getting out of hand. A 3 bedroom MF is looking at $3,300 under the fully funded provision. At a average of 10% it will be $6,600 in 7 years. Factor in the defaults we’re bound to see and the future looks rather bleak.

If I compare this to my Las Vegas Grand Chateau week, it makes no sense for me to continue to own OP. GC offers more Abound points, a lock off unit that trades as a full 1 bedroom with a MF of $2,300. Perhaps it’s time to dump Ocean Pointe and purchase another Grand Chateau week? It’s become nearly impossible for us to reserve our home week at Ocean Pointe for the first week of December unless I book that week using Abound points. I’m seeing no advantage of holding a deed at this resort anymore.

This new reserve clause is going to hit Hilton Vacation Club, Blue Green, Westgate, Disney, Wyndham and all timeshare developers & owners liked a category 4 hurricane. IMHO

 

[californiagirl]

I’m not sure if this has already been posted. I went back a few pages on this thread and did not see it. The maintenance fee below for MOC was included in the President’s letter we received today.

 

[Bodie]

Has anyone received their Aruba Surf Club MFs?. I got notification last week they were available but nothing has been uploaded. We have two weeks, two bedroom, ocean side, gold. Thanks.

 

[timsi]

We see another interesting contrast: Hilton Elara Las Vegas is experiencing a modest 3.3% MF increase, while Marriott Grand Chateau, located just across the street, is undergoing a more substantial increase ranging from 7% to 8%.

2024 Hilton Grand Vacations Maintenance Fees

Plantation Beach Club at IRP 2 BR Gold Flex Week (could be 8000 pts depending upon week reserved but I bought week to use) 2024 Operating Fee - 1,463.92 2024 Reserve Fee - 247.48 2024 Real EstateTaxes - 58.03 Total:$1,769.43 Last year total:1,535.58 Moderator added: Increase of $233.85 (15.23%)

tugbbs.com

Marriott 2024 Maintenance Fees

* Please limit this thread to only the MF specifics and take discussions/commentary to the discussion boards. Thank you! (See 2024 Maintenance Fees DISCUSSION THREAD.) * Owners, please report your Weeks MF's as they are billed (NOT proposed/estimated) in this format: Resort Name/Unit Size...

tugbbs.com

 

[LUVourMarriotts]

I've been thinking more about my overall ownership over the last few years. Up until a few years ago, we got a ton of use out of our MVC ownership, used every week/point each year, and even rented more. Since our daughter started middle school sports and travel sports, it has become difficult finding the opportunities to utilize. I expect that will change once she is off to college . But, as I think about it, I compare what we own as a whole and against each location. I have a MVC Planning spreadsheet I've created, that calculates everything for us. As I plug in the MF's, it simply calculates that cost per point at each week, when elected. Our MFV week is much higher than the cost of an Abound point. To be exact, it is 13.4% higher, and thats even after Abound went up 15.1% and MFV only went up 6.3% this year.

I reached out to the board of directors a few months back attempting to ask honest questions about the long term plan for MFV. I never heard back. I reached out to MVC directly asking if they could push it along. I got a call from the GM. We had a discussion about it, he gave me some info about occupancy, about some improvements they've done to the resort, etc. And then suggested I speak with the President of the board. What I asked for initially.

Here's what it really comes down to, for MFV at least. MF's are $1854.10 this year. That comes to $265/night. I can go to marriott.com and reserve a night for $131-250/night, October thru May, almost every day, except a few holiday weekends. Confirmed by the GM, the only significant owner occupied time of the year is June-August. Sure, this isn't a beach location, isn't a theme park location. Per the GM, its a stop along the east coast for NE'ers driving down to SC/FL. This used to be a golf and spa location. The spa has been gone for years now. The golf is still there, but no discounts or advantages for owners, per the GM. What is the value in keeping this an MVC location?

By the numbers (at current MF's):

• It costs $95K/2BR unit/year
• It costs $2.9M/building/year
• It costs $17.4M/resort/year

How could it possibly cost $95K/year to maintain a 2BR unit? Some of that $95K goes towards the common resort amenities. I have no idea what that split is. But, with all the amenities dwindling at a place like this, how much could that be?

The fact that MVC has literally told me there is no value in this location, and if I want to get out I need to pay them to hand it over to them, just really pisses me off!

We love our MVC ownership and travel. I feel totally fine with the other weeks we own, their MF's, even Abound MF's. This one just gets me. Oh, by the way, this resort has historically had the highest Bad Debt numbers for MVC, meaning people default on their loans and walk away.

 

[rickandcindy23]

All three, Spicebush, Swallowtail and Monarch, plus several private homes, were established/developed by American Resorts Group, Inc and sold as a package to Marriott, Int'l in 1984, which became the Marriott Vacation Club segment under the umbrella. Spicebush and Swallowtail later separated when the MVCI brand standards were challenged. I don't know what happened with the individual homes - I wonder if those are the properties adjacent to Grande Ocean that have rights to GO's amenities??

Anyway, that's why I say Monarch was the first, although technically it was only one of the first.

Interesting! I had no idea.

 

[AlmostRetired]

The first two (2) Marriott timeshare resorts on Hilton Head Island were Spicebush at Sea Pines and Swallowtails at Sea Pines. Those two (2) resorts were later dropped from the Marriott's Vacation Club because they did not meet Marriott's Vacation Club high standards.

The baby sitter I used in 1994 and beyond still works for Marriott and is either the longest or second longest active MVCI employee on HHI. We stop by and say hello every visit and reach out after hurricanes just to stay in touch. I actually had this conversation with her this past August. Sea Pines was in trouble (could be because of American Resorts) so Marriott took over the Monarch and Sea Pines Villas. They also started managing Spicebush, Swallowtail and a few units at Cutter Court and Night Heron. When I purchased from Marriott in 1995, Swallowtail and Spicebush were on Marriott's list. Marriott had a welcome center where you check-in for your resort. At some point, Marriott wanted every resort to have an area for check-in for the resort at the resort. Spicebush and Swallowtail did not have one and there was no easy way to build one. This was not a quality issue with either resort. I have a friend who stayed at Spicebush and loved it. It was 1/2 the rental price of staying at the GO which they have in the past. I would pay to stay at the GO but not everyone would.

 

[jmhpsu93]

@LUVourMarriotts I've always wondered why they built a resort there in New Jersey. Maybe access to gambling in AC? Once gambling became legal all over the place there's no reason to go there. Southern New Jersey has its charms but I wouldn't have built a timeshare there. We were offered a preview vacation there like 15 years ago and we were like, "where???"

Sorry you're having so much trouble getting rid of it. How does it trade?

 

[dioxide45]

@LUVourMarriotts I've always wondered why they built a resort there in New Jersey. Maybe access to gambling in AC? Once gambling became legal all over the place there's no reason to go there. Southern New Jersey has its charms but I wouldn't have built a timeshare there. We were offered a preview vacation there like 15 years ago and we were like, "where???"

Sorry you're having so much trouble getting rid of it. How does it trade?

I think it was built as a golf location and access to AC. Marriott may have owned (or at least managed) the adjacent hotel there and worked out a deal to build a set of adjacent timeshares. They had success in Orlando with the Palms properties that are colocated with the Orlando World Center Marriott. It seemed like a lower barrier to entry for a timeshare than going out and securing new land. Of course the hotel that is located with Fairway Villas is no longer owned or managed by Marriott International.

 

[toddc2]

I’m not sure if this has already been posted. I went back a few pages on this thread and did not see it. The maintenance fee below for MOC was included in the President’s letter we received today.


View attachment 83200

Thanks, I just got around to reading the President's letter this morning. I've owned at MOC for over 20 years and I have to say the value proposition is fading quickly, especially with a few "lost" weeks during COVID that were banked but never used...

I can understand why the fees are getting so high but it's becoming increasingly difficult for me to accept.

 

[hangloose]

Thanks, I just got around to reading the President's letter this morning. I've owned at MOC for over 20 years and I have to say the value proposition is fading quickly, especially with a few "lost" weeks during COVID that were banked but never used...

I can understand why the fees are getting so high but it's becoming increasingly difficult for me to accept.

Agree. We still love our MOC week. It is hard to beat OF Maui. But, we're starting to ask ourselves...is the value still there. It's definitely starting to diminish.

In 2024, with a 9.8% increase in addition to the ~$600 on average additional reserve fee (the next two years for plumbing updates)....the MFees are getting pricey and will be at least for the next couple years. For this week alone, it's up ~$1k yty.

Wouldn't surprise me if we start to see many MOC owners look to sell very soon at a lower resale cost the recent...... in an attempt to miss out on the above fee increase in 2024/25. In tandem, I think the Lahaina fires may also influence that....as it will take time for the area to recover. Tourism will be slightly lower, some owners may defer coming, and rentals (to offset MFees) could perhaps be impacted also.

Guess time will tell. Regardless, we've got our 2024 in Maui booked...and look forward to going...but am certainly thinking on the value proposition also of continued ownership.

 

[Dean]

The baby sitter I used in 1994 and beyond still works for Marriott and is either the longest or second longest active MVCI employee on HHI. We stop by and say hello every visit and reach out after hurricanes just to stay in touch. I actually had this conversation with her this past August. Sea Pines was in trouble (could be because of American Resorts) so Marriott took over the Monarch and Sea Pines Villas. They also started managing Spicebush, Swallowtail and a few units at Cutter Court and Night Heron. When I purchased from Marriott in 1995, Swallowtail and Spicebush were on Marriott's list. Marriott had a welcome center where you check-in for your resort. At some point, Marriott wanted every resort to have an area for check-in for the resort at the resort. Spicebush and Swallowtail did not have one and there was no easy way to build one. This was not a quality issue with either resort. I have a friend who stayed at Spicebush and loved it. It was 1/2 the rental price of staying at the GO which they have in the past. I would pay to stay at the GO but not everyone would.

I'm pretty sure they still own that building on the corner of the main traffic circle or at least have control of it if it's leased. The other group alluded to above were generally called the Saturday Villas. They were a collection of Condo's in various complexes, I think there were a total of 5 complexes, not sure how many total condos. They also bought HP around that time from the Burns Corp I believe. There were other resorts in the system early. One in the Caribbean, one on Loon Mountain and another in FL which I believe was Longboat Bay Club and if so, it came around again under MVC management and was then kicked out when Spicebush and the like were also kicked from the system.

 

[LUVourMarriotts]

@LUVourMarriotts I've always wondered why they built a resort there in New Jersey. Maybe access to gambling in AC? Once gambling became legal all over the place there's no reason to go there. Southern New Jersey has its charms but I wouldn't have built a timeshare there. We were offered a preview vacation there like 15 years ago and we were like, "where???"

Sorry you're having so much trouble getting rid of it. How does it trade?

I hear you. When we bought here, in 2002, we were just married, wanted to travel at least once per year, and went with friends on a friends and family weekend. Our current life situation and the sales tactics used, spoofed us. But, we love our MVC, and this was our step into it. When we lived in Hudson Valley NY, this was a great location to go to each summer. Lots of decreases in amenities, AC going through the motions, our move to NC, etc makes this less useful to us. A Platinum 2BR only gets us 2075 points each year. This is what we normally do, elect. The last few times I had attempted a trade didn't come through. For the first several years, I traded well with it.
Again, MVC's admitted lack of value at this location is extremely frustrating. I did an analysis today of Abound points reservations compared to direct Marriott cash stays. The GM told me that weekend stays via Abound reservations are pretty good throughout the year. During the 4 months I reviewed, an Abound reservation costs anywhere from $51-$172 more (in points value) than it would by booking direct Marriott for a cash stay. So the owners pay more than a non-owner. Most of the year, a reservation costs similar to, or less than, a Courtyard hotel room.

 

[SueDonJ]

I'm pretty sure they still own that building on the corner of the main traffic circle or at least have control of it if it's leased. The other group alluded to above were generally called the Saturday Villas. They were a collection of Condo's in various complexes, I think there were a total of 5 complexes, not sure how many total condos. They also bought HP around that time from the Burns Corp I believe. There were other resorts in the system early. One in the Caribbean, one on Loon Mountain and another in FL which I believe was Longboat Bay Club and if so, it came around again under MVC management and was then kicked out when Spicebush and the like were also kicked from the system.

Yes, that building at the circle has a "Marriott Vacation Club" sign out in front, and no other company's signage. For some reason I always think of it as administration offices, but are there still any Hilton Head resorts that don't have 24-hour employees to take care of onsite check-ins, etc??

Thanks for the always interesting history of the very early MVCI days. Now that you mention it I vaguely remember a ski weekend at a Marriott condo at Loon, long, long ago when we were young and had no kids yet.

 

[sponger76]

I hear you. When we bought here, in 2002, we were just married, wanted to travel at least once per year, and went with friends on a friends and family weekend. Our current life situation and the sales tactics used, spoofed us. But, we love our MVC, and this was our step into it. When we lived in Hudson Valley NY, this was a great location to go to each summer. Lots of decreases in amenities, AC going through the motions, our move to NC, etc makes this less useful to us. A Platinum 2BR only gets us 2075 points each year. This is what we normally do, elect. The last few times I had attempted a trade didn't come through. For the first several years, I traded well with it.
Again, MVC's admitted lack of value at this location is extremely frustrating. I did an analysis today of Abound points reservations compared to direct Marriott cash stays. The GM told me that weekend stays via Abound reservations are pretty good throughout the year. During the 4 months I reviewed, an Abound reservation costs anywhere from $51-$172 more (in points value) than it would by booking direct Marriott for a cash stay. So the owners pay more than a non-owner. Most of the year, a reservation costs similar to, or less than, a Courtyard hotel room.

You make it sound like a good candidate to unwind as a timeshare resort. When is the last time that happened to an MVC resort? I'm just curious about how that logistics of that would work out, especially with regards to inventory owned by the trust. Do they cut the corresponding amount of points from the number of Abound points they show as available for sale via retail channels?

 

[vacationtime1]

The "value proposition" of timeshares has to be measured against the alternative -- renting something comparable. It is totally true that timeshare MF's are skyrocketing, but so are most vacation accommodation costs.

My yardstick is WKORV which I own and know much better than MOC. MF's for a 2bd will likely be in the $3,000 range next year. But an OF unit such as mine now rents for $6,000 - $7,000, if Redweek asking prices are to be believed. So the "value proposition" of my unit is a savings of $3,000 - $4,000/year. That justifies the $40,000 cost and the $3,000 MF. That's a 7.5% - 10% after-tax ROI which is pretty good.

Obviously the math will vary from timeshare to timeshare, but looking only at MF's is missing half the picture.

 

[Eric B]

The "value proposition" of timeshares has to be measured against the alternative -- renting something comparable. It is totally true that timeshare MF's are skyrocketing, but so are most vacation accommodation costs.

My yardstick is WKORV which I own and know much better than MOC. MF's for a 2bd will likely be in the $3,000 range next year. But an OF unit such as mine now rents for $6,000 - $7,000, if Redweek asking prices are to be believed. So the "value proposition" of my unit is a savings of $3,000 - $4,000/year. That justifies the $40,000 cost and the $3,000 MF. That's a 7.5% - 10% after-tax ROI which is pretty good.

Obviously the math will vary from timeshare to timeshare, but looking only at MF's is missing half the picture.

I like the philosophy, but would modify it a touch to limit it to the value being what I would pay for the alternative. I’m somewhat less likely to pay a $1,000/day, so wouldn’t value it at that level.

 

[LUVourMarriotts]

You make it sound like a good candidate to unwind as a timeshare resort. When is the last time that happened to an MVC resort? I'm just curious about how that logistics of that would work out, especially with regards to inventory owned by the trust. Do they cut the corresponding amount of points from the number of Abound points they show as available for sale via retail channels?

I have no idea how unwinding it would work. I can't believe that I'm saying this... but, when we bought, the saleswoman said, if the owners decide to sell the whole property, there is a procedure for that. I specifically asked about it because I was concerned that Galloway, NJ may not become a mecca for timeshare travel, and that location may suffer in the long run. Viola! Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But, the discussion above (comment #201) suggests other places have been removed from MVC, so who the heck knows?!

 

[Dean]

Yes, that building at the circle has a "Marriott Vacation Club" sign out in front, and no other company's signage. For some reason I always think of it as administration offices, but are there still any Hilton Head resorts that don't have 24-hour employees to take care of onsite check-ins, etc??

Thanks for the always interesting history of the very early MVCI days. Now that you mention it I vaguely remember a ski weekend at a Marriott condo at Loon, long, long ago when we were young and had no kids yet.

Yes, I remember checking in at that building but I'm trying to recall if it was for HP or Monarch. Even then some resorts did their own check in but I'm not sure which ones. I don't have first hand knowledge of the early 3, only what I've picked up along the way. From what I've heard, the Loon Mountain option is no longer even a resort.

 

[timsi]

The "value proposition" of timeshares has to be measured against the alternative -- renting something comparable. It is totally true that timeshare MF's are skyrocketing, but so are most vacation accommodation costs.

My yardstick is WKORV which I own and know much better than MOC. MF's for a 2bd will likely be in the $3,000 range next year. But an OF unit such as mine now rents for $6,000 - $7,000, if Redweek asking prices are to be believed. So the "value proposition" of my unit is a savings of $3,000 - $4,000/year. That justifies the $40,000 cost and the $3,000 MF. That's a 7.5% - 10% after-tax ROI which is pretty good.

Obviously the math will vary from timeshare to timeshare, but looking only at MF's is missing half the picture.

When discussing the value proposition, people are typically referring to what the developer currently offers, rather than what individuals may have purchased on the resale market. Your deeds would cost between $200,000 and $250,000 if acquired from the developer today. If you were to purchase Abound points today instead, you would also incur approximately $12,000 in annual fees. I believe this information might slightly alter your calculations.

 

[dioxide45]

I have no idea how unwinding it would work. I can't believe that I'm saying this... but, when we bought, the saleswoman said, if the owners decide to sell the whole property, there is a procedure for that. I specifically asked about it because I was concerned that Galloway, NJ may not become a mecca for timeshare travel, and that location may suffer in the long run. Viola! Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But, the discussion above (comment #201) suggests other places have been removed from MVC, so who the heck knows?!

Other timeshare systems have lost resorts that are in a trust. When the timeshare is wound down (usually by a vote of owners requiring a super majority), then any units owned by the trust disappear as well and MVC would need to record a conveyance in Orange County Florida that the points are being removed from the trust. This becomes fewer points available for sale. Owners of course lose their week but everyone in the end gets a slice of what the resort sells for. That being if there is any money left over after paying all legal and other fees. I am sure that MVC would make sure that most of the money is eat up by "services" they provide in the wind down of the timeshare scheme.

The key to do this would be getting that super majority vote and how MVC votes the weeks owned by the trust. The reality is that MVC would only want to dissolve the timeshare if it was beneficial to them and I don't really see that happening.

 

[vacationtime1]

When discussing the value proposition, people are typically referring to what the developer currently offers, rather than what individuals may have purchased on the resale market. Your deeds would cost between $200,000 and $250,000 if acquired from the developer today. If you were to purchase Abound points today instead, you would also incur approximately $12,000 in annual fees. I believe this information might slightly alter your calculations.

I actually paid $30K for my WKORV-OF during the Great Recession and I expect to pay ~$3K in MF's next year. I used the numbers that actually apply to me to create the value proposition for me.

Your numbers are fake math. Perhaps you should be a timeshare salesman.

 

[timsi]

How much would currently cost what you own 1 WKORV-OF (Maui) WKV x2 (Scottsdale) bought from the developer? Less than $200k?
Additionally, I think the 3 deeds convert to about 16,300 Abound points. If you were to buy today 16,300 points from the developer (which is what they offer, not the deeds you own), at $15 pp that means $240,000 upfront and for 16,300 Abound points (at $0.78748 pp) you would pay $12,835 dollars in MF (2024). How does the "value proposition" sound for you with these numbers? You can split it individually per deed if you find more "value" that way.

How is my math wrong? Show me how your math is better. Even if we ignore the developer's prices today (which is what we're actually discussing), can you still ignore the fact that if you had invested $30,000 during the Great Recession, you could have multiple times that amount now?