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2024 Maintenance Fees DISCUSSION THREAD

timsi

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An owner has already paid a maintenance fee for that unused booking. So the resort has received compensation to cover costs. The owner who fails to reserve is the one that loses out.

That's an interesting perspective! By following that line of thinking, it seems like someone could just as easily visit your home without compensation when you're away.

Just because the regular owners have covered the expenses for the current year, it doesn't imply that there won't be future costs for owners with this practice, especially considering it appears to be recurring every year and possibly at a large scale. As I mentioned, Marriott should either pay market value or, at the very least, reimburse us for the underlying maintenance fees of those units. I understand why Marriott would vigorously dispute this but I'm still not sure why any owner, acting in their own self-interest, would disagree with this.
 

dioxide45

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That's an interesting perspective! By following that line of thinking, it seems like someone could just as easily visit your home without compensation when you're away.

Just because the regular owners have covered the expenses for the current year, it doesn't imply that there won't be future costs for owners with this practice, especially considering it appears to be recurring every year and possibly at a large scale. As I mentioned, Marriott should either pay market value or, at the very least, reimburse us for the underlying maintenance fees of those units. I understand why Marriott would vigorously dispute this but I'm still not sure why any owner, acting in their own self-interest, would disagree with this.
We agree to it when we buy in to the resort and are bound by the resort CC&R documents that grant the developer that right.

If you don't like it, petition your resort to take up a vote to change the underlying documents instead of coming here to cry about it.
 

timsi

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We agree to it when we buy in to the resort and are bound by the resort CC&R documents that grant the developer that right.

If you don't like it, petition your resort to take up a vote to change the underlying documents instead of coming here to cry about it.


Show me where in the CC&R documents is mentioned that they can have those units FOR FREE. So there is nothing to change there or "cry" about it LOL!
 

sponger76

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I strongly believe that developers should fairly compensate us for the unoccupied last-minute units they grab. Can they book these units without owning additional units? It seems that they can, based on the rules, but we should receive compensation for these bookings. I'm not entirely sure why any owner, who is acting in their own best interest, would dispute this.
Do you own the specific unit/week combos that are being rented out? Are you not able to use the ownership that you do have at all, via any channel (Home Resort, Star Options, II exchanges, etc) due to these rentals? If not, you really don't have a leg to stand on because you don't own and aren't being deprived of the weeks they are using for rental purposes. You own the ability to book time at the resorts, you don't actually own the resort and all use cases for it.
 

Dean

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That's an interesting perspective! By following that line of thinking, it seems like someone could just as easily visit your home without compensation when you're away.

Just because the regular owners have covered the expenses for the current year, it doesn't imply that there won't be future costs for owners with this practice, especially considering it appears to be recurring every year and possibly at a large scale. As I mentioned, Marriott should either pay market value or, at the very least, reimburse us for the underlying maintenance fees of those units. I understand why Marriott would vigorously dispute this but I'm still not sure why any owner, acting in their own self-interest, would disagree with this.
Better examples related to an individual home would be an easement that allows actions by others or prevents certain actions or better yet, HOA restrictions. Everyone should understand what they're getting themselves into when buying a timeshare, condo, etc. Maintenance is paid on the week already so the wear and tear is covered. Plus I don't think there's any data to suggest that owners treat properties better than non owners other than possibly in fixed unit situations, if even then. I've discussed the question of whether renters cause more damage with 3 different GM's and non felt they did. The only group they singled out were a spring break type group. Plus if there are significant damages they can generally charge these to the CC used to check in. Those that are truly unhappy with their ownership should chose not to participate, I can't tell if you're that unhappy overall or just like to complain, either way it's tiresome.
 

sponger76

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I can't tell if you're that unhappy overall or just like to complain, either way it's tiresome.
It kind of seems like he feels that the developer that paid many millions of dollars to develop a resort should not be able to profit off of that investment beyond initial sales and ongoing management deals, while he should get full say and control of the resort for his mere thousands that he paid in.
 

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I'm still eagerly awaiting for anyone to point out the specific paragraph within the CCR documents that explicitly grants them the authority get those units FOR FREE. The rest is simply extraneous.
 

dioxide45

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Show me where in the CC&R documents is mentioned that they can have those units FOR FREE. So there is nothing to change there or "cry" about it LOL!
I'm still eagerly awaiting for anyone to point out the specific paragraph within the CCR documents that explicitly grants them the authority get those units FOR FREE. The rest is simply extraneous.
You can read as well as I can, page 129 of the PDF. There is also information in the reservation procedures, but I don't have the ability to post them in here right now due to working form an old backup laptop.

You know something, if you are so passionate about the issue, there is ABSOLUTLY NOTHING stopping you from doing this research yourself. Instead you seem to be want to be spoon-fed.
 

SueDonJ

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The problem is that this is not a victimless action. When you obtain something for virtually nothing, any profit you can make from it becomes significant and this allows Marriott rent units at a (much) lower rate, and that includes non-owners who come to attend sales tours paying a very low rate. Owners suspect that non-timeshare owners are more inclined to neglect the property, create disturbances like noisy music, leave behind litter, and fail to supervise children, among other concerns. Consequently, we not only shoulder the financial burden of routine wear and tear, utilities, housekeeping (probably daily!) labor costs etc, but are also burdened with issues probably uncommonly associated with regular patrons (owners and exchangers).

I strongly believe that developers should fairly compensate us for the unoccupied last-minute units they grab. Can they book these units without owning additional units? It seems that they can, based on the rules, but we should receive compensation for these bookings. I'm not entirely sure why any owner, who is acting in their own best interest, would dispute this.
I'm still eagerly awaiting for anyone to point out the specific paragraph within the CCR documents that explicitly grants them the authority get those units FOR FREE. The rest is simply extraneous.
I'm not sure exactly the instances under which you're claiming Marriott is taking and using units for rentals but they're entitled to do it in several instances, sometimes "FOR FREE" and sometimes not. The following sections quoted verbatim (except any spelling typos are mine, sorry) and in full are from the Barony Beach Club Public Offering Statement, which consists of 325 pages comprising the Master Deed, the Time Sharing Declaration, the Management Agreement and other documents. Each section I'm quoting may be supported by similar language in other sections, and, there are other related sections that detail other instances - these three (Marriott-Owned, Fee-Delinquent and Unreserved) are just the three that come immediately to mind. I have no doubt that the docs for every individual resort and the Abound Trust convey similar rights to Marriott/the individual resorts and Trust Boards, across the entire MVC-branded portfolio.

**********

Barony Beach Club Master Deed / Pages 17 and 18 of 31 / ARTICLE XIII DECLARANT SUBJECT TO MASTER DEED: DECLARANT USE: ADDITIONAL DECLARANT RESERVED RIGHTS

Section 1. General.
So long as the Declarant owns one or more of the Units, the Declarant shall be subject to the provisions of this Master Deed and the Exhibits attached hereto. The Declarant covenants to take no action which will adversely affect the rights of the Regime by reason of the establishment of said Regime. Provided, however, that Declarant, as in the case with any other Owner, shall have the absolute right and privilege of leasing or otherwise permitting the use by other individuals of any or all of the units owned by it on a short or long term basis for the uses permitted by this Master Deed. Declarant's lessees, invitees, guests, and any other authorized users of the Unit shall be entitled to all of the privileges and rights, and be subject to the requirements hereunder, of a Co-Owner with respect to the use of the Unit and the Property, excluding voting rights which shall remain with the Declarant. Declarant's original intention developing the Regime is to create a vacation ownership community with first-class and uniform continuing management. Further, Declarant, in an attempt to provide fee simple ownership benefits to individual Owners, has determined to utilize the condominium form of ownership. Typically in a condominium development the developer creates the condominium, constructs and sells the condominium units and, within an identifiable period of time is normally no longer involved with the project. To the contrary, in the instant situation, Declarant will be involved on a long-term basis with the Regime from not only a development perspective with regard to the Future Phase Property which will be developed over a long period of time, but also from a management perspective. For Example, as referenced in the By-Laws and Time Sharing Declaration Marriott Resorts Hospitality Corporation (MRHC), an entity affiliated with Declarant, has entered into a long term management contract with the Association. The overall relationship of Declarant with the Regime is not intended to be burdensome in any way to the Owners. It is for that reason that there are certain reserved rights of Declarant set forth in this Master Deed as well as in the accompanying exhibits to the Master Deed, some of which are specifically set forth in this Article XIII.

Section 4. Declarant's Use For Sales Activities. The Declarant, and its successors and assigns, shall be entitled to use one or more of the Units and/or Common Elements, including the future improvements on the CFB [Central Facilities Building] Parcel, both during the time period that the Phase 1 Property and all or a portion of the Future Phase Property is developed by Declarant and subsequent to those time periods for sales activities, for a sale model, for guest and sales prospect accommodations, for ongoing management and resale real estate services, and similar activities, such services and said activities not necessarily relating or limited to the Property comprising this Regime, but also to any other project(s) or properties developed and managed by Declarant or its affiliated entities or for which Declarant or its affiliated entities serves as a selling or listing brokerage firm. Declarant shall not be assessed any cost for such use of the Common Elements other than as an owner of Units. It is understood that the intent of the Declarant is that said reserved rights do not conflict with the use restrictions described hereinabove. In addition, Declarant may choose to construct a building designated as a Future Phase and yet not annex all or a portion of said Building upon its completion. In the interim prior to annexation, Declarant may use said Building consistent with this Section 4, to house potential purchasers, etc. These guests and sales prospects shall have the rights to utilize the Common Elements, including the recreational facilities.

**********

Exhibit "E" of the Barony Beach Club Master Deed / BY-LAWS ... / Page 13 of 29 /
OBLIGATIONS OF THE OWNERS

Section 4. DEFAULT IN PAYMENT OF COMMON EXPENSES AND TIME SHARE EXPENSES.
The Board shall take prompt action to collect any monies due from any Owner which remains unpaid for more than thirty (30) days from the due date for payment thereof. In the event of default by any Owner in paying to the Board the Common Expenses and/or Time Share Expenses (sometimes collectively referred to as a "Maintenance Fee") as determined by the Board, such Owner shall be obligated to pay a reasonable late charge as determined by the Management Agent or Board for any assessment not paid within ten (10) days of the due date, together with all expenses, including attorney's fees, incurred by the Board in any proceeding brought to collect such unpaid Common Expenses and/or Time Share Expenses, and further, any unpaid balance shall accrue interest at the lesser of the highest maximum rate allowable under law or the rate of eighteen percent (18%) per annum. The Board shall have the right and duty to attempt to recover such common expenses, together with interest thereon, and the expenses to recover the same brought against such Owners, or by foreclosure of the lien on such Unit granted by Section 27-31-210, Code of Laws of South Carolina, 1976, as amended. All assessment payments shall be applied first to interest, late fees, costs of collection and then to the assessment payment due. With regard to the subordinate nature of such liens as it relates to mortgages recorded prior to the recording of any evidence of such lien, the provisions of Section 27-31-210, Code of Laws of South Carolina, 1976, as amended, shall be controlling. In addition the the above described rights, the Board shall also possess those rights and remedies specified in the Time Sharing Declaration, including, but not limited to, the prohibition of use by a defaulting Owner pursuant to said Time Sharing Declaration. The Board shall the the right to rent a Deliquent Owner's Use Period and any use rights appurtenant thereto and to apply the proceeds of such rental pursuant to the Procedures for Reserving Usage as promulgated and amended from time to time by the Agent.

**********

Appendix "A" to Exhibit "G" to Master Deed Barony Beach Club / Pages 23 and 25 of 27 / BARONY BEACH CLUB PROCEDURES FOR RESERVING USAGE

1.4 USE OF UNRESERVED USE PERIODS.


The Declarant may reserve and use any unreserved Use Period beginning seventy-five (75) days prior to the first day of the Use Period. If the Declarant makes use of such Use Period, the Use Period will not be available for reservation or use by Owners.

1.7 GENERAL RULES FOR RESERVATION AND USE.

(b) Failure to request a reservation of a Use Period in a use year, or to receive confirmation of a particular desired reservation, does not relieve the Owner from the obligation to pay all assessments and charges attributable to each Time Sharing Interest owned.
 
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cubigbird

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I should have been more precise - that's VGV. $3,184.15 for a 1 BR, $2,388.02 for a studio.
My WSJ Sunset Bay EOY Diamond season was $2564 last year so that’s $5128 for a week. A 20% increase puts that well over $6000. Getting very pricey for a full week!
 
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DRH90277

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I write this only to share an alternative to the self-serving Marriott timeshare model. As exhibited above, they have certainly documented the hell out of establishing their advantages.

We assembled a timeshare vacation portfolio over the years to meet our needs including developer purchases (a few while we learned the territory), resales (most) and some points (too many). The resales are the most useful to us and certainly the most cost effective in all respects. Were we to do this again, I would build our portfolio entirely from resale weeks. I've learned there is plenty of flexibility available through use of owned weeks, Interval exchanges, and renting out for cash to acquire anything else.

And, owned week maintenance fees will always be lower than the points alternative with its added overhead and other costs.

Only my view.......
 
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AlmostRetired

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A little over a month ago I posted a topic on at what point will the value proposition of trust points implode by the weight of the point cost and MF with the anticipated increase in MF. The title was changed to a MF discussion which I understood based on what was being answered but not the reason I posted the topic.

The greatest value for using trust points might become bronze, silver and at some resorts gold seasons in that order. Platinum season will be the least value. Take a resort and do the math. It will likely be more than 100 percent over deeded MF and likely above rental prices at some of the best resorts.

The value proposition of using points for Bonvoy Points, cruises, tours and home rental that were never good to begin, with just got worse. Now add the cost to own which is a sunken cost for current owners but a deterrent to new ones.

The question remains how much is flexibility worth before it isn’t?
 
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SueDonJ

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I write this only to share an alternative to the self-serving Marriott timeshare model. As exhibited above, they have certainly documented the hell out of establishing their advantages.

We assembled a timeshare vacation portfolio over the years to meet our needs including developer purchases (a few while we learned the territory), resales (most) and some points (too many). The resales are the most useful to us and certainly the most cost effective in all respects. Were we to do this again, I would build our portfolio entirely from resale weeks. I've learned there is plenty of flexibility available through use of owned weeks, Interval exchanges, and renting out for cash to acquire anything else.

And, owned week maintenance fees will always be lower than the points alternative.

Only my view.......
I agree with you that Weeks are more cost-effective than Points, but I don't understand the point of your other comments.

As for them "documenting the hell out of establishing their advantages," most if not all of the information/detail contained in the governing docs is there because Marriott is required by law to provide specific information to buyers/owners/members of the associations. Sure, the provisions that protect Marriott are included. But so are the provisions that protect owners/members!

It's also worth noting that when it comes to protections in the docs, for them or for us, the same provisions that apply to direct-purchase intervals also apply to external-resale intervals upon resale. In fact the deeds themselves contain statements to the effect that the terms and obligations of ownership apply to each successor unless otherwise specifically noted.
 
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Dean

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I'm still eagerly awaiting for anyone to point out the specific paragraph within the CCR documents that explicitly grants them the authority get those units FOR FREE. The rest is simply extraneous.
It really doesn't matter does it, it is what it is and you can't change it. You could try through legal channels, good luck on that one and pull out your wallet. All timeshares I know of with any flexibility built in (DVC, MVC, Bluegreen) have some ability to rent out unused weeks for their own profit. Specifically with DVC, any weeks that are IN THE SYSTEM and unused at 60 days out are free game for "breakage", in addition, they can anticipate breakage out to 11 months out. Basically DVC can rent them out. The the entire amount goes to offset fees up to a certain point then the rest is simply profit for DVCMC and they make a profit yearly doin so. If you put as much effort into working as you do complaining about this you could own a few condo's in the places you like to go but then you'd find out the HOA's are often run by the local Glady Kravitz. I still don't understand why anyone so unhappy with this system would continue to participate or let it affect their life as it clearly does yours.
 

timsi

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You can read as well as I can, page 129 of the PDF. There is also information in the reservation procedures, but I don't have the ability to post them in here right now due to working form an old backup laptop.

You know something, if you are so passionate about the issue, there is ABSOLUTLY NOTHING stopping you from doing this research yourself. Instead you seem to be want to be spoon-fed.

It is not that I could not find it because I am lazy, I think there is no paragraph the explicitly allows them to get them for free.

At Lagunamar we have: “Network Operator shall have the right to rent or otherwise use all such unreserved Vacation Periods during the Network Priority Period.”

To me the phrase "rent or otherwise use" suggests that the Network Operator has the right to reserve these periods, but it doesn't explicitly address whether they need to pay for this usage. Since the payment terms are not specified it may be subject to interpretation. They may be in for a nice surprise one day.
 

timsi

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I'm not sure exactly the instances under which you're claiming Marriott is taking and using units for rentals but they're entitled to do it in several instances, sometimes "FOR FREE" and sometimes not. The following sections quoted verbatim (except any spelling typos are mine, sorry) and in full are from the Barony Beach Club Public Offering Statement, which consists of 325 pages comprising the Master Deed, the Time Sharing Declaration, the Management Agreement and other documents. Each section I'm quoting may be supported by similar language in other sections, and, there are other related sections that detail other instances - these three (Marriott-Owned, Fee-Delinquent and Unreserved) are just the three that come immediately to mind. I have no doubt that the docs for every individual resort and the Abound Trust convey similar rights to Marriott/the individual resorts and Trust Boards, across the entire MVC-branded portfolio.

**********

Barony Beach Club Master Deed / Pages 17 and 18 of 31 / ARTICLE XIII DECLARANT SUBJECT TO MASTER DEED: DECLARANT USE: ADDITIONAL DECLARANT RESERVED RIGHTS

Section 1. General.
So long as the Declarant owns one or more of the Units, the Declarant shall be subject to the provisions of this Master Deed and the Exhibits attached hereto. The Declarant covenants to take no action which will adversely affect the rights of the Regime by reason of the establishment of said Regime. Provided, however, that Declarant, as in the case with any other Owner, shall have the absolute right and privilege of leasing or otherwise permitting the use by other individuals of any or all of the units owned by it on a short or long term basis for the uses permitted by this Master Deed. Declarant's lessees, invitees, guests, and any other authorized users of the Unit shall be entitled to all of the privileges and rights, and be subject to the requirements hereunder, of a Co-Owner with respect to the use of the Unit and the Property, excluding voting rights which shall remain with the Declarant. Declarant's original intention developing the Regime is to create a vacation ownership community with first-class and uniform continuing management. Further, Declarant, in an attempt to provide fee simple ownership benefits to individual Owners, has determined to utilize the condominium form of ownership. Typically in a condominium development the developer creates the condominium, constructs and sells the condominium units and, within an identifiable period of time is normally no longer involved with the project. To the contrary, in the instant situation, Declarant will be involved on a long-term basis with the Regime from not only a development perspective with regard to the Future Phase Property which will be developed over a long period of time, but also from a management perspective. For Example, as referenced in the By-Laws and Time Sharing Declaration Marriott Resorts Hospitality Corporation (MRHC), an entity affiliated with Declarant, has entered into a long term management contract with the Association. The overall relationship of Declarant with the Regime is not intended to be burdensome in any way to the Owners. It is for that reason that there are certain reserved rights of Declarant set forth in this Master Deed as well as in the accompanying exhibits to the Master Deed, some of which are specifically set forth in this Article XIII.

Section 4. Declarant's Use For Sales Activities. The Declarant, and its successors and assigns, shall be entitled to use one or more of the Units and/or Common Elements, including the future improvements on the CFB [Central Facilities Building] Parcel, both during the time period that the Phase 1 Property and all or a portion of the Future Phase Property is developed by Declarant and subsequent to those time periods for sales activities, for a sale model, for guest and sales prospect accommodations, for ongoing management and resale real estate services, and similar activities, such services and said activities not necessarily relating or limited to the Property comprising this Regime, but also to any other project(s) or properties developed and managed by Declarant or its affiliated entities or for which Declarant or its affiliated entities serves as a selling or listing brokerage firm. Declarant shall not be assessed any cost for such use of the Common Elements other than as an owner of Units. It is understood that the intent of the Declarant is that said reserved rights do not conflict with the use restrictions described hereinabove. In addition, Declarant may choose to construct a building designated as a Future Phase and yet not annex all or a portion of said Building upon its completion. In the interim prior to annexation, Declarant may use said Building consistent with this Section 4, to house potential purchasers, etc. These guests and sales prospects shall have the rights to utilize the Common Elements, including the recreational facilities.

**********

Exhibit "E" of the Barony Beach Club Master Deed / BY-LAWS ... / Page 13 of 29 /
OBLIGATIONS OF THE OWNERS

Section 4. DEFAULT IN PAYMENT OF COMMON EXPENSES AND TIME SHARE EXPENSES.
The Board shall take prompt action to collect any monies due from any Owner which remains unpaid for more than thirty (30) days from the due date for payment thereof. In the event of default by any Owner in paying to the Board the Common Expenses and/or Time Share Expenses (sometimes collectively referred to as a "Maintenance Fee") as determined by the Board, such Owner shall be obligated to pay a reasonable late charge as determined by the Management Agent or Board for any assessment not paid within ten (10) days of the due date, together with all expenses, including attorney's fees, incurred by the Board in any proceeding brought to collect such unpaid Common Expenses and/or Time Share Expenses, and further, any unpaid balance shall accrue interest at the lesser of the highest maximum rate allowable under law or the rate of eighteen percent (18%) per annum. The Board shall have the right and duty to attempt to recover such common expenses, together with interest thereon, and the expenses to recover the same brought against such Owners, or by foreclosure of the lien on such Unit granted by Section 27-31-210, Code of Laws of South Carolina, 1976, as amended. All assessment payments shall be applied first to interest, late fees, costs of collection and then to the assessment payment due. With regard to the subordinate nature of such liens as it relates to mortgages recorded prior to the recording of any evidence of such lien, the provisions of Section 27-31-210, Code of Laws of South Carolina, 1976, as amended, shall be controlling. In addition the the above described rights, the Board shall also possess those rights and remedies specified in the Time Sharing Declaration, including, but not limited to, the prohibition of use by a defaulting Owner pursuant to said Time Sharing Declaration. The Board shall the the right to rent a Deliquent Owner's Use Period and any use rights appurtenant thereto and to apply the proceeds of such rental pursuant to the Procedures for Reserving Usage as promulgated and amended from time to time by the Agent.

**********

Appendix "A" to Exhibit "G" to Master Deed Barony Beach Club / Pages 23 and 25 of 27 / BARONY BEACH CLUB PROCEDURES FOR RESERVING USAGE

1.4 USE OF UNRESERVED USE PERIODS.


The Declarant may reserve and use any unreserved Use Period beginning seventy-five (75) days prior to the first day of the Use Period. If the Declarant makes use of such Use Period, the Use Period will not be available for reservation or use by Owners.

1.7 GENERAL RULES FOR RESERVATION AND USE.

(b) Failure to request a reservation of a Use Period in a use year, or to receive confirmation of a particular desired reservation, does not relieve the Owner from the obligation to pay all assessments and charges attributable to each Time Sharing Interest owned.

See my comment above. This can be interpreted to mean that Marriott can reserve unoccupied units, even if the developer doesn't possess any deeds or has exhausted all their owned weeks. However, it doesn't specify that this reservation is without cost. I can book a restaurant for example, it does not mean that I do not have to pay for the food. The lack of explicit payment terms, combined with the diffuse ownership structure and the developer's influential position, creates significant ambiguity in the arrangement.
 

dioxide45

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See my comment above. This can be interpreted to mean that Marriott can reserve unoccupied units, even if the developer doesn't possess any deeds or has exhausted all their owned weeks. However, it doesn't specify that this reservation is without cost. I can book a restaurant for example, it does not mean that I do not have to pay for the food. The lack of explicit payment terms, combined with the diffuse ownership structure and the developer's influential position, creates significant ambiguity in the arrangement.
Given the fact that it doesn't indicate something like "with due compensation" and you are trying to use the lack of the words "for free" as a hill to stand on, it means you probably don't have much of a hill.
 

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Given the fact that it doesn't indicate something like "with due compensation" and you are trying to use the lack of the words "for free" as a hill to stand on, it means you probably don't have much of a hill.
Not surprisingly, yet another generous interpretation of what Marriott can and cannot do.
 

Dean

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It is not that I could not find it because I am lazy, I think there is no paragraph the explicitly allows them to get them for free.

At Lagunamar we have: “Network Operator shall have the right to rent or otherwise use all such unreserved Vacation Periods during the Network Priority Period.”

To me the phrase "rent or otherwise use" suggests that the Network Operator has the right to reserve these periods, but it doesn't explicitly address whether they need to pay for this usage. Since the payment terms are not specified it may be subject to interpretation. They may be in for a nice surprise one day.
There's the crux of the issue, you want it to specifically say they can take the weeks and get the income, that's not now these contracts work and you should know that. The wording you posted clearly gives them control of the weeks they rent including the income. For them to not be able to take those weeks as income there would have to be wording that precluded it or directed those funds elsewhere such as to offset fees (like DVC). I assume there is no such wording or you would have posted it.
 

timsi

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There's the crux of the issue, you want it to specifically say they can take the weeks and get the income, that's not now these contracts work and you should know that. The wording you posted clearly gives them control of the weeks they rent including the income. For them to not be able to take those weeks as income there would have to be wording that precluded it or directed those funds elsewhere such as to offset fees (like DVC). I assume there is no such wording or you would have posted it.

Indeed it is my opinion that the issue of payment lacks both implicit and explicit clarity. It stands as yet another example of how developers treat owners when they can acquire something for free, with the costs ultimately borne by us. Let's momentarily reverse roles and envision a scenario in which the resort's Board of Directors is genuinely independent, with control over the reservation system rather than the developer. In such a situation, it's easy to visualize the BOD requesting payment for these units and withholding Marriott from making bookings until the financial matter is resolved. If Marriott were to contest this, it could potentially lead to a legal dispute. Marriott's argument would pivot on the idea that the absence of payment is implied and considered customary within the industry.

On the contrary, the BOD would assert that they cannot be denied what the rest of us are obliged to pay for. They could point to other timeshare systems where this arrangement does not exist. Even if some developers might exploit this practice, it is not widely known among the general public. Furthermore, they could contend that their say 20,000 owners are largely unaware of this arrangement, and if properly informed, the owners would prefer to see the developer covering the costs of these units. This approach promotes transparency and accountability, fostering trust and confidence in the management of the resort. It also ensures fairness to all owners, protects the value of ownership, enhances the resort's reputation, and upholds ethical responsibility by ensuring that costs are appropriately allocated without developer favoritism.

Due to the inherent lack of clarity in the clause, in my view, and as is often the case, unclear terms tend to be resolved in favor of the consumer. This outcome might not be particularly pleasing for the developer.
 

dioxide45

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Indeed it is my opinion that the issue of payment lacks both implicit and explicit clarity. It stands as yet another example of how developers treat owners when they can acquire something for free, with the costs ultimately borne by us. Let's momentarily reverse roles and envision a scenario in which the resort's Board of Directors is genuinely independent, with control over the reservation system rather than the developer. In such a situation, it's easy to visualize the BOD requesting payment for these units and withholding Marriott from making bookings until the financial matter is resolved. If Marriott were to contest this, it could potentially lead to a legal dispute. Marriott's argument would pivot on the idea that the absence of payment is implied and considered customary within the industry.

On the contrary, the BOD would assert that they cannot be denied what the rest of us are obliged to pay for. They could point to other timeshare systems where this arrangement does not exist. Even if some developers might exploit this practice, it is not widely known among the general public. Furthermore, they could contend that their say 20,000 owners are largely unaware of this arrangement, and if properly informed, the owners would prefer to see the developer covering the costs of these units. This approach promotes transparency and accountability, fostering trust and confidence in the management of the resort. It also ensures fairness to all owners, protects the value of ownership, enhances the resort's reputation, and upholds ethical responsibility by ensuring that costs are appropriately allocated without developer favoritism.

Due to the inherent lack of clarity in the clause, in my view, and as is often the case, unclear terms tend to be resolved in favor of the consumer. This outcome might not be particularly pleasing for the developer.
If you believe what you say is true, then you need to challenge your board to start asking Marriott for compensation. If Marriott refuses, ask the board to take legal action as only a court can determine any ambiguity. If the board refuses, then take matters in to your own hands and take legal action yourself. In other words, put up or shut up because like I said, complaining about it here isn't getting you any closer to what you want. Marriott isn't going to somehow read these posts and go "oh yeah, we need to start paying for these weeks we are now getting for free".
 

timsi

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If you believe what you say is true, then you need to challenge your board to start asking Marriott for compensation. If Marriott refuses, ask the board to take legal action as only a court can determine any ambiguity. If the board refuses, then take matters in to your own hands and take legal action yourself. In other words, put up or shut up because like I said, complaining about it here isn't getting you any closer to what you want. Marriott isn't going to somehow read these posts and go "oh yeah, we need to start paying for these weeks we are now getting for free".

You could be right, but if this is not the only disputed issue where the developer is using their dominant position, I would not be surprised if they are not taking things as seriously as they should be. I don't think it's good for a reputable company to be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as taking advantage of ordinary owners. There are too many issues for us to believe that they will not reach a critical mass at some point and come back to haunt them, especially as they continue to accumulate in the open.
 

Eric B

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…. In other words, put up or shut up because like I said, complaining about it here isn't getting you any closer to what you want….
I don’t presume to know what anyone actually wants, but believe that people generally respond to incentives they receive. If they get something they like, such as attention (whether they will admit they want it or not), they tend to engage in the activity that results in the desirable outcome. I’ve seen that cycle play out here and elsewhere in social media—in some instances it can turn into trolling. In any case, there gets to be a point where I don’t see further value in engaging. That might be the case here where the multitude of responses from knowledgeable tuggers doesn’t seem to be making a difference even when backed up with citations from the resort governing documents.

I concluded a couple of rant storms ago that I can’t take any action that would help deliver the corrective actions that were being hinted at. I also concluded that it might be a desire for attention instead accompanied by the realization that no one on TUG can really help with the resort complaints.

When I’m with someone in person, I find the easiest way to deal with serial complaints is to just respond “Can you believe it!” and go on with life. Here it’s a choice of either using the ignore function or skimming over the postings. I’m never going to be able to help some folks after all. YMMV.
 
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