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2024 Maintenance Fees DISCUSSION THREAD

dioxide45

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Wow...that's aggressive. The Component Expenses (underlying weeks MFs) portion of the trust budget was up 14.4%....so this appears to be on the steep side of the expected resort average.
I suspect Florida resorts will take a bigger hit of the average and resorts outside of Florida may be less. Just a thought.
 

dioxide45

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On the revenue side, where did the revenues increase? Rentals maybe?
I just checked, it must be better rates on their investments. I know they use laddered CD investing (100% FDIC insured). So they are probably getting better rates in the short term interest rate environment. But not sure why they would be paying $20 in income tax on $20 of revenue per week.
1696015085674.png
 

DanCali

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Does the "Deficit Recovery" line imply they expect some people to stop paying MFs?

And that's not an increase of 100%... It's more like ꝏ% if the prior number is zero.
 

dioxide45

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Does the "Deficit Recovery" line imply they expect some people to stop paying MFs?

And that's not an increase of 100%... It's more like ꝏ% if the prior number is zero.
Well, they also have the Bade Debt Expense line item. Perhaps the deficit recovery is for something else, or perhaps to cover debt collections by a third party or even MVCI?
 

AlmostRetired

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Wow...that's aggressive. The Component Expenses (underlying weeks MFs) portion of the trust budget was up 14.4%....so this appears to be on the steep side of the expected resort average.
I like to see an apples to apples comparison. Based on the season you own, if the week was enrolled, how many points would you get and what would be the MF per point after the increase in your MF.
 

Eric B

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I am not sure why there is a big increase for income tax. Did someone make an accounting error resulting in such a large amount of taxes to be paid by a non profit HOA?
Given that it's a non-profit HOA, the increase in income taxes could be related to showing actual income during the diminished travel periods leading to lower than expected housekeeping and other costs for actual usage leading to a mismatch between income brought in and expenses. That is to say that they budgeted and collected more maintenance fees a couple of years ago and didn't spend them so it was income in the year before last that they paid last year or will pay this year.

Does the "Deficit Recovery" line imply they expect some people to stop paying MFs?

And that's not an increase of 100%... It's more like ꝏ% if the prior number is zero.
Deficit recovery reads to me like it is making up for a deficit in prior year budgeting. As mentioned, folks not paying MFs shows up as bad debt. Overall, I get the impression that the HOAs budget was high as compared to expenses when travel went down, the board corrected for it by lowering the budget the next year and ran a deficit, and now the budget is going up to cover the deficit from the underbudgeting. Looking at the pattern of reported MFs at that resort shows that they went down in 2021, up some in 2022 and 2023 but not as much as current projections. That kind of matches what I would guess looking at these line items.
 

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Got the proposed budget for Harbour Lake. It looks like the proposed operating fee is up 21%. I won't speak to the proposed reserve fee as that still includes fully funding reserves. But it certainly looks like the increase in fees for trust points this year is based on expected increases in fees for underlying weeks in 2024.

I've highlithed items that are up over 15%. I am not sure why there is a big increase for income tax. Did someone make an accounting error resulting in such a large amount of taxes to be paid by a non profit HOA?
View attachment 81917
The Activities expense is up by over 15% and you are now paying $100 per week for Activities. I think this is a key area where savings can be achieved and activity users should share more of the cost. Many resorts have activities listed for almost every hour of the day even during the off season. There are too many 'free alcohol' and 'free food' events that seem to attract the most people (many of whom are not likely owners). The staff requirements for a full activity calendar also increasing staffing costs and management fee. I highly recommend that the activity model be changed. Perhaps each guest receives an 'activity credit' for their stay (based on stay length) and the activity cost needs to be paid for based on usage.
 

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Where does the revenue for cabana rentals, MVC owned/operated bars and food service, markets, and other income generating operations go? The GM at Surf Watch told me that revenue from cabana rentals are applied to cover the cost of some activities, such as their weekly free brat buffet. Does all the money from the food and bars go directly to MVC? Do they pay rental for the facilities that they use?
 

dioxide45

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Does all the money from the food and bars go directly to MVC? Do they pay rental for the facilities that they use?
I suspect you know the answer... MVC drew up the condo documents. For the newer resorts, they pay utilities for their operations, but there is no rent and they keep the profit. This is true of the onsite sales offices. They pay the costs to operate the sales office and the utilities, but they don't pay a monthly rent to the HOA and they keep the profit from sales. The same is true for food and beverage. I don't know specifically about cabanas, but I would think it comes down to who owns the actual equipment. If the HOA buys, pays to fix it and replaces it, then the HOA should earn the revenue. At Westin Kierland Villas you need to check with the resort concierge for cabana rentals. The concierge is part of marketing which is part of sales. I can discern from that where the revenue goes.
 

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I suspect you know the answer... MVC drew up the condo documents. For the newer resorts, they pay utilities for their operations, but there is no rent and they keep the profit. This is true of the onsite sales offices. They pay the costs to operate the sales office and the utilities, but they don't pay a monthly rent to the HOA and they keep the profit from sales. The same is true for food and beverage. I don't know specifically about cabanas, but I would think it comes down to who owns the actual equipment. If the HOA buys, pays to fix it and replaces it, then the HOA should earn the revenue. At Westin Kierland Villas you need to check with the resort concierge for cabana rentals. The concierge is part of marketing which is part of sales. I can discern from that where the revenue goes.

Hmm, there's no rent paid, and the profits are kept by the developer. Unless the condominium documents explicitly state that these spaces can be used by the developer without offering any compensation to the association, and this information is disclosed at the time people purchase their timeshare, MVC may face a big surprise in the future. The same may apply to unbooked units that they acquire 60 days or less before check-in. With maintenance fees increasing significantly, owners are likely to pay more attention to certain details.
 

vacationtime1

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Hmm, there's no rent paid, and the profits are kept by the developer. Unless the condominium documents explicitly state that these spaces can be used by the developer without offering any compensation to the association, and this information is disclosed at the time people purchase their timeshare, MVC may face a big surprise in the future. The same may apply to unbooked units that they acquire 60 days or less before check-in. With maintenance fees increasing significantly, owners are likely to pay more attention to certain details.

Of course this was disclosed in the condominium documents -- probably on about page 48 of the 55 page legalese CC&R's that everyone was given at the time of purchase; Marriott and its lawyers are many things, but not stupid.

I know Marriott is screwing me over trying to make a profit. My analysis goes more like this: am I satisfied paying "X" dollars to buy it and "Y" dollars per year in MF's to use it, knowing the MF's will increase at Marriott's discretion? If "yes", I close my eyes, hold my nose, and buy. If "no", I use my vacation dollars elsewhere.
 

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Of course this was disclosed in the condominium documents -- probably on about page 48 of the 55 page legalese CC&R's that everyone was given at the time of purchase; Marriott and its lawyers are many things, but not stupid.

I know Marriott is screwing me over trying to make a profit. My analysis goes more like this: am I satisfied paying "X" dollars to buy it and "Y" dollars per year in MF's to use it, knowing the MF's will increase at Marriott's discretion? If "yes", I close my eyes, hold my nose, and buy. If "no", I use my vacation dollars elsewhere.

Oh, the notion that companies with a legal department are immune to rule-breaking or losing lawsuits! We all know that's hardly the case, don't we? Could you please highlight the specific paragraphs that unmistakably grant them permission to use the space WHITOUT charge, or to rent unreserved units WITHOUT contributing to the resorts' budgets?
 

pedro47

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I can remember when a selling point to purchase a timeshare unit; was the daily and weekly costs would be cheaper than a hotel daily or weekly costs?
 

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I bought weeks in 2004 and points in 2012. As much as I enjoy this purchase, I could never recommend a MVC buy in to anyone, now.
 

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I've factored in what my DC point increase is going to be - about 15.1 percent. Does anyone yet know what the Aruba Surf Club maintenance fee for 2024 will be for two weeks, two bedroom , ocean side, gold will be? Thanks
 

TheTimeTraveler

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I bought weeks in 2004 and points in 2012. As much as I enjoy this purchase, I could never recommend a MVC buy in to anyone, now.


I agree with this but only up to a point.

Ask yourself what a house (or a hotel room) cost in 2004. Now, what do they cost nearly 20 years later.........





.
 

DRH90277

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Attended the Custom House annual meeting on Thursday in Boston - Maintenance Fees are to be $2,302.16, only up 4.76% from last year.

Custom House, a historic building, is not a typical timeshare property.
 
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dougp26364

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I agree with this but only up to a point.

Ask yourself what a house (or a hotel room) cost in 2004. Now, what do they cost nearly 20 years later.........





.

I paid just under $20,000 for our 3 bedroom ocean front unit at Ocean Pointe. Today at retail trust points cost I’d be looking at $89,570. If my math is correct that’s somewhere north of a 400% increase. We bought our house in 1999. Trust me when I tell you it hasn’t increased in value by any 400%.
 

MOXJO7282

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Attended the Custom House annual meeting on Thursday in Boston - Maintenance Fees are to be $2,302.16, only up 4.76% from last year.

Custom House, a historic building, is not a typical timeshare property.
The final total is right but I believe the percentage increase is higher than 4.76%. More like 12% based on my 2023 costs
 

DRH90277

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The final total is right but I believe the percentage increase is higher than 4.76%. More like 12% based on my 2023 costs

Custom House - Please double check your numbers - We paid Custom House Maintenance Fees of $2,197.20 for 2023 and expect to pay $2,302.66 for 2024 - that's a 4.8% increase. There are only 84 1-bedroom units at this historic property. Custom House MF's tend to be high but a visit to this unique well-maintained property in its prime location helps one to understand.

Of course, MF's for points will reflect an aggregation for a wide range of Trust properties plus overhead for the Trust program.

I'm anxious to see if there might be a very large increase in MF's for points and more modest increases for our individual owned properties. MVC has added a lot of new properties to the Trust and these could impose higher costs than the old blend.
 
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dioxide45

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Attended the Custom House annual meeting on Thursday in Boston - Maintenance Fees are to be $2,302.16, only up 4.76% from last year.

Custom House, a historic building, is not a typical timeshare property.
Too bad there aren't any weeks there in the trust. It might have helped keep point fee increases down...
 

MOXJO7282

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Please double check your numbers - We paid Custom House Maintenance Fees of $2,197.20 for 2023 and expect to pay $2,302.66 for 2024 - that's a 4.8% increase. There are only 84 1-bedroom units at this historic property. Custom House MF's tend to be high but a visit to this unique well-maintained property in its prime location helps one to understand.

Of course, MF's for points will reflect an aggregation for a wide range of Trust properties plus overhead for the Trust program.

I'm anxious to see if there might be a very large increase in MF's for points and more modest increases for our individual owned properties. MVC has added a lot of new properties to the Trust and these could impose higher costs than the old blend.
Actually I only took a quick glance at my numbers and I thought that validated what I also saw in the latest docs from the Custom House that showed a double digit increase. I see your numbers and they seem to confirm what you're saying but did you receive the recent docs? Did I misread them?
 

DRH90277

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Actually I only took a quick glance at my numbers and I thought that validated what I also saw in the latest docs from the Custom House that showed a double digit increase. I see your numbers and they seem to confirm what you're saying but did you receive the recent docs? Did I misread them?
I believe the numbers are right and hope so. The BOD presentation included announcement of the percent increase of 4.76%, the 2024 MF as the $2,302.16, and reconfirmed the 2023 MF at the $2,197.20 I paid for this year. I do have difficulty getting to the announced number from the 2024 Estimated Operating Budget that was provided with the proxy materials.

I apologize if I got this wrong, but I don't think so and do like the 2024 number. We'll see......
 

vol_90

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I've factored in what my DC point increase is going to be - about 15.1 percent. Does anyone yet know what the Aruba Surf Club maintenance fee for 2024 will be for two weeks, two bedroom , ocean side, gold will be? Thanks
Not yet. The maintenance fees for the Aruba Surf Club were billed on 10/28/22 last year.
 
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