[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

[Roger830]

Well, that's certainly a big impact on a percentage basis. I do think $1/contract for CWA is likely coming back this winter. Prices are set based on supply and demand. Megas using VIP on resale points will be getting out, increasing supply of contracts. But megas were also previously a big source of resale demand, so demand will be down also. I think the combination of that takes prices down dramatically. Obviously ovation should keep the $0 value as a limit.

And for the folks who do have 50 million resale points $5/1000 is $250,000. Whereas $1/contract is ~$0. I'd think it was a big impact if I lost a quarter million dollars.

Anyway, I own zero Wyndham so no horse in this race.

Well, I do own Wyndham and I see no change in resale value which is essentially $0 for a seller if Wyndham accepts my contracts in their Certified Exit program and I have desirable resorts for potential buyers.

It seems that for most member's the uncertainty of the length of time for the sale and closing while mf cost is accumulating doesn't seem to make it worth the aggravation of not using Wyndham.

By the way, I never stated in the past that Wyndham would not allow resale contracts to use vip benefits.

 

[VacayKat]

That was actually true at the time and will be until this system update is implemented which allows Wyndham to differentiate between the points you bought from them, which do qualify for VIP, and the points you purchased from a third party which do not. Same is true for me. No rules have been changed. Wyndham created a way to enforce the rule which was already in place. Think of it like speeding. 50 years ago, the policeman had to guess how fast a car was moving. His guess may or may not have stood up in court. Then, the radar gun was invented. This gave police a much better way to determine if the driver was actually speeding or not. The law didn’t change. The police were given a better tool to enforce the already existing law.

So I understand what you are saying. But Wyndham certainly had the capacity to bucket points if they wanted to. They just didn’t want to AND knew they could use it to lure resale folks to make developer purchases. Precedent is set by action and the precedent was set that for my resale points I would receive the same VIP perks (aside from ARP). If you not only permit but engage in suggesting it’s a perk, the RULE as written is not as enforceable as it might have been. I think the analogy to speeding is incorrect as well. Seriously, they have had to have had the points bucketed in some way already because they knew which resorts I could and could not reserve before 10 months, and they knew how many of my points I could use to do it with.
Police choose who to enforce the rule with just as often as they choose who not to enforce the rule with. A better analogy might be that it is against the law for police to break the rules of the road including speeding, but they do so frequently and because their position allows them to do so because of the precedent set by no one enforcing the law.
*IF* the rules as written for owners like me mattered they would have enforced them long ago. Seems to me they have started listening to a small but vocal group of unhappy non VIP folks angry that others might get a few perks.

 

[55plus]

My Old Town Alexandria resale contract is for ARP during Inaugurations and Memorial Day and my Durango resale contract is for ARP when the Aspen turn in the fall. I'll keep them and will probably let my Glacier Canyon resale contract go. I don't need it anymore; nice and nephews are older now.

 

[Rolltydr]

So I understand what you are saying. But Wyndham certainly had the capacity to bucket points if they wanted to. They just didn’t want to AND knew they could use it to lure resale folks to make developer purchases. Precedent is set by action and the precedent was set that for my resale points I would receive the same VIP perks (aside from ARP). If you not only permit but engage in suggesting it’s a perk, the RULE as written is not as enforceable as it might have been. I think the analogy to speeding is incorrect as well. Seriously, they have had to have had the points bucketed in some way already because they knew which resorts I could and could not reserve before 10 months, and they knew how many of my points I could use to do it with.
Police choose who to enforce the rule with just as often as they choose who not to enforce the rule with. A better analogy might be that it is against the law for police to break the rules of the road including speeding, but they do so frequently and because their position allows them to do so because of the precedent set by no one enforcing the law.
*IF* the rules as written for owners like me mattered they would have enforced them long ago. Seems to me they have started listening to a small but vocal group of unhappy non VIP folks angry that others might get a few perks.

You, and I, were taking advantage of a loophole. That loophole is being closed. You’re mad about it and blaming Wyndham and unknown complainers out to get VIP owners (and mega-renters). Corporations, and law enforcement, decide which rules or laws to focus their efforts on based on the consequences at any given point in time. The consequences of allowing owners to continue to reap benefits they did not pay for has become too great for Wyndham to ignore. You can be mad about it all you want, and you can blame Wyndham or any other boogeyman, but the fault lies at the feet of the owners (mega-renters) who are abusing the system. I’m done.

 

[HitchHiker71]

For anyone who may not have actually watched the video and caught how this change is being implemented, below is a screenshot from the video for ease of reference. There's an additional field provided when performing the inventory search called Purchase Type where you will choose from one of two buckets:

• Developer
• Resale

This makes sense given that the type of points used will impact inventory availability for VIP owners due to RARP, discounts, and free upgrades that impact what inventory displays and what options are displayed during the booking process (such as a room upgrade or an upgrade request for example).

 

[VacayKat]

You, and I, were taking advantage of a loophole. That loophole is being closed. You’re mad about it and blaming Wyndham and unknown complainers out to get VIP owners (and mega-renters). Corporations, and law enforcement, decide which rules or laws to focus their efforts on based on the consequences at any given point in time. The consequences of allowing owners to continue to reap benefits they did not pay for has become too great for Wyndham to ignore. You can be mad about it all you want, and you can blame Wyndham or any other boogeyman, but the fault lies at the feet of the owners (mega-renters) who are abusing the system. I’m done.

I think the problem I have when folks roll out the ‘mega-renters’ argument is - where is the data to support your argument? Perhaps this argument has basis in fact, but if the percentage of folks who own VIP and resale is very small then those who have VIP AND have unseemly amounts of resale that they are reaping benefits from [which only affects Wyndham’s financials] is ridiculously small.
You are right that this email made me mad. It was targeted as an enhancement to me, a benefit to me, a GREAT thing that Wyndham in its benevolence is doing FOR me. Wyndham should have said ‘Look, we know we’ve told you this would be the way it was from the beginning, and we are sorry for leading you on. We are no longer allowing the practice of pooling all owner points in a single account. At this time we have decided it no longer is in our best interests and we are choosing to enforce a rule that we have not enforced before, and in fact many of you may have been sold developer points under the promise that we would not enforce the rule. We are sorry for any challenges this might pose, we have set up a dedicated line for resale owners who might wish to explore options for reducing their resale ownership.’ Had they done so, I might have respected their position. What they did was, again, make me feel like their moves are intended to reduce my personal enjoyment of the product I have sunk money into. So yes- I blame Wyndham for how they are handling this, and how they have failed to train their staff and failed to ensure their sales do not promise things their company does not support. And before anyone says listening to sales is stupid, yes that is true, but sales lying is unethical and a company that cares about the rules should damn well care if their people follow them.

 

[VacayKat]

For anyone who may not have actually watched the video and caught how this change is being implemented, below is a screenshot from the video for ease of reference. There's an additional field provided when performing the inventory search called Purchase Type where you will choose from one of two buckets:

• Developer
• Resale

This makes sense given that the type of points used will impact inventory availability for VIP owners due to RARP, discounts, and free upgrades that impact what inventory displays and what options are displayed during the booking process (such as a room upgrade or an upgrade request for example).

View attachment 37737

What I’d like to know is how this affects folks with multiple contracts.
And seriously, since Wyndham can’t even get the points totals to match on our accounts, are we supposed to just trust them that they will keep the buckets perfect? As I pointed out to the owner care person I talked to, they can’t even get my account set up right to allow me to book all the resorts my accounts allow me to book - and it’s been like 18 months I’ve been complaining, why is this new problem high priority when they can’t even get their *bleep* together?

 

[troy12n]

You are right that this email made me mad. It was targeted as an enhancement to me, a benefit to me, a GREAT thing that Wyndham in its benevolence is doing FOR me. Wyndham should have said ‘Look, we know we’ve told you this would be the way it was from the beginning, and we are sorry for leading you on.

Look, you can be mad, and try to place blame, but at the end of the day, you got a benefit, for years, for which you were really not entitled to.

Put another way, you got something for nothing. You got something for free, which you really didn't pay for.

Wyndham looked the other way for years.

We could all speculate as to why they did this. Perhaps it was a technology limitation preventing them from doing it, maybe it was for some other reason.

Regardless, you got something for nothing. Something specifically called out that you weren't supposed to have. And the free ride is ending...

 

[rickandcindy23]

Look, you can be mad, and try to place blame, but at the end of the day, you got a benefit, for years, for which you were really not entitled to.

Put another way, you got something for nothing. You got something for free, which you really didn't pay for.

Wyndham looked the other way for years.

We could all speculate as to why they did this. Perhaps it was a technology limitation preventing them from doing it, maybe it was for some other reason.

Regardless, you got something for nothing. Something specifically called out that you weren't supposed to have. And the free ride is ending...

All true. I don't know that the poster you are talking about has been a Wyndham owner long enough to get the benefits we did for many years. I am okay with everything, as long as I can give back my resale contracts through Ovations and they don't drain my wallet to do it.

 

[55plus]

All true. I don't know that the poster you are talking about has been a Wyndham owner long enough to get the benefits we did for many years. I am okay with everything, as long as I can give back my resale contracts through Ovations and they don't drain my wallet to do it.

Does Ovations even exist anymore? Isn't it now called Certified Exit? Either way, Wyndham can chose and pick which contracts they'll take back. Do they want the old non popular locations or the ones not in CWA? I'm sure they'll take back the high demand locations so they can roll them into CWA. CWA is the future of timesharing.

 

[Broubal]

Another VIP Loophole closed. This should really help availability for owners to book for personal use!

Absolutely agree, taking the big players out of the market they will have to charge even more now...

 

[keno999]

I don't think this change will really hurt me too bad since we just book for personal trips. I regret that it's going to be more complicated in the future and there is no telling how bad your account will get screwed up when they roll out the changes in August. I guess there may be more upgrades available if I use my VIP points correctly. We'll see.

What I don't get here is all the "I told you so's" and cheering that someone isn't getting something more than they would. It used to be a lot more collegial and helpful here but I guess when you look at the general world attitude it shouldn't be a surprise that things are degenerating here as well.

 

[Broubal]

I had already bought all my resale points when I was offered twice at two,different location to buy a small VIP contract and my resale points will be given VIP benefits. And as you have read those benefits were given to resale points to VIP owners in the past. Those who bought and have used those benefits in the past should be grandfathered.

The sales weasels lips were moving..., sure you could use VIP benefits but not anymore.. It wasn't in writing..

 

[troy12n]

I guess there may be more upgrades available if I use my VIP points correctly. We'll see.

That's the elephant in the room. Less people (resale owners) will be getting VIP upgrades because a percentage of their points will no longer be entitled to it. That leaves more upgrades to people who actually paid for the benefit (on all of our points)... and in theory, more larger suites in general because they will not be taken by auto-upgrades

 

[rickandcindy23]

Does Ovations even exist anymore? Isn't it now called Certified Exit? Either way, Wyndham can chose and pick which contracts they'll take back. Do they want the old non popular locations or the ones not in CWA? I'm sure they'll take back the high demand locations so they can roll them into CWA. CWA is the future of timesharing.

You are just guessing, basically.

As I said before, we own Fairfield Bay and Kingsgate resale. Low MF's.

 

[bnoble]

What I don't get here is all the "I told you so's" and cheering that someone isn't getting something more than they would. It used to be a lot more collegial and helpful here but I guess when you look at the general world attitude it shouldn't be a surprise that things are degenerating here as well.

There have been some long-standing grudges between some folks here in the Wyndham corner of TUG, and at least some of what you are seeing is probably rooted in that. I have most of those folks on my ignore list, so I don't have to wade through it anymore. That makes some of the Wyndham threads hard to understand, and I probably miss out on some important stuff, but it's more pleasant that way.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I don't think this change will really hurt me too bad since we just book for personal trips. I regret that it's going to be more complicated in the future and there is no telling how bad your account will get screwed up when they roll out the changes in August. I guess there may be more upgrades available if I use my VIP points correctly. We'll see.

What I don't get here is all the "I told you so's" and cheering that someone isn't getting something more than they would. It used to be a lot more collegial and helpful here but I guess when you look at the general world attitude it shouldn't be a surprise that things are degenerating here as well.

So agree with you. Loopholes closed, we need to move on as owners who took advantage of the loopholes for years. I am good with it. I have said that before.

 

[rickandcindy23]

There have been some long-standing grudges between some folks here in the Wyndham corner of TUG, and at least some of what you are seeing is probably rooted in that. I have most of those folks on my ignore list, so I don't have to wade through it anymore. That makes some of the Wyndham threads hard to understand, and I probably miss out on some important stuff, but it's more pleasant that way.

I hope I am not on your ignore list, Brian.

 

[VacayKat]

Look, you can be mad, and try to place blame, but at the end of the day, you got a benefit, for years, for which you were really not entitled to.

Put another way, you got something for nothing. You got something for free, which you really didn't pay for.

Wyndham looked the other way for years.

We could all speculate as to why they did this. Perhaps it was a technology limitation preventing them from doing it, maybe it was for some other reason.

Regardless, you got something for nothing. Something specifically called out that you weren't supposed to have. And the free ride is ending...

I LOVE the you assumed I had this benefit for years. I LOVE that you think I have been the barnacle on the bottom of Wyndham's ship.
You do not know for how long, nor do you know when I was made the promises. The fact that these promises continue to be made even as Wyndham Corporate has been moving to change the rules, is in my opinion unethical.
Please don't make assumptions as to how long I 'had something for nothing' that Wyndham promised me to be the privilege I was paying for. I have NOT received these benefits for years.

 

[VacayKat]

That's the elephant in the room. Less people (resale owners) will be getting VIP upgrades because a percentage of their points will no longer be entitled to it. That leaves more upgrades to people who actually paid for the benefit (on all of our points)... and in theory, more larger suites in general because they will not be taken by auto-upgrades

If what Wyndham states is true, that this change affects a ridiculously small percentage of owners, then that theory is unlikely to happen.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Sounds like the incessant postings by @dgalati had the bad effect they were intended to have. Those of you that had spoken with Wyndham management at the annual meetings might consider contacting the ones you have phone numbers for.

Some odd points in this email are the promised deposit of complimentary points in the next use year and the extended window for PDF to move non-VIP points to a future year.

Yeah, that was a weird addition to the email. No way will I get any points. I think they will be charging me for past reservations booked at discounts and upgrades.

 

[Ty1on]

The sales weasels lips were moving..., sure you could use VIP benefits but not anymore.. It wasn't in writing..

I believe you are correct, as there is no such thing as "a small VIP contract." Probably they were trying to get him to Silver with a 200K contract and 200K Bonus. After the bonus expired, he'd have been standing there holding the non-VIP bag.

 

[Ty1on]

Yeah, that was a weird addition to the email. No way will I get any points. I think they will be charging me for past reservations booked at discounts and upgrades.

I'm guessing they put that in to soften the blow a little.

 

[55plus]

Absolutely agree, taking the big players out of the market they will have to charge even more now...

The resort restrictions still need to be in place to weed out the mega renters. High demand location reservations at 13 months aren't really affected the change other than maybe a few fees. Without the timeframe/guest certificate restrictions they'll continue to reserve a large amount of timeframes at the more desirable resorts using ARP. Or Wyndham can implement a guest certificate limitation along with some other restrictions may fix the problem Maybe after several years when all the mega renter are gone they'll lift the restrictions and things will be back to normal for the owner who uses their points for personal travel, not for commence.

 

[Manzana]

Another thought and this is just wishful thinking but this makes Worldmark and Wyndham systems a little more similar in that Worldmark resale cannot use their vip travel share. Might be easier to combine the systems much like they have with Shell. I doubt it but trying to find a silver lining. I will miss the privilege of having VIP for my resale points but I am more concerned about how confusing it will get. In my opinion the cleanest way to do this would be to make separate accounts for resale and retail. However I learned to understand the system as it is now so with a little learning curve I am sure I can adjust.