You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[davidvel]

If you had understood my post I was guessing . I actually said my guess multiple times.

Bill

I understood what you wrote. You didn't say you guessed that fuel profits were 15%, you stated " The average markup on gas is about 15%." You stated this as a fact, not a guess. You habitually do this with things that are merely a figment of your wild imagination.

The gas station I use with the 36 pumps doesn't really have much for store items. No alcohol. I think cheap cigarettes and cheap gas is the draw. The average markup on gas is about 15%. A busy gas station pump will pump an average of 80 to 150 gallons an hour. The Sinclair station I go to also fills large commercial vehicles. My guess is they go through about 30,000 to 40,000 gallons of gas per day. My guess is they cash flow over $4000 per day.

Bill

 

[tombanjo]

in a press release from J.D. Power, Tesla scored the highest in the category with 786 points out of 1,000, 13 more than it received in the 2023 TXI Study. The score put Tesla "practically in a league of its own," as Teslarati reported, and the next closest auto manufacturer was Rivian with 666 points.

Tesla also had the greatest score for its Supercharger network

 

[Brett]

Top Gear's top 20 electric cars​

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/top-gears-top-20-electric-cars

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#1 is .... Hyundai Ioniq ????

 

[DrQ]

#1 is .... Hyundai Ioniq ????

Hyundai has been leaning big into the EV market. Genesis has fully electric versions of the GV70 and GV80:

Genesis GV80 luxury electric SUV is coming to take on Tesla Model Y and Porsche Macan EV

Genesis is set to launch a new luxury mid-size electric SUV, the GV80, that will compete against Tesla’s best-selling Model...

electrek.co

 

[Ken555]

Hyundai and Kia EVs are quite nice.

 

[TUGBrian]

note from a friend who was anti-ev for the longest time until cali started offering rebates and buybacks for older ICE vehicles...id say hes happy with the change

Yeah, I'm not going back, unless it's purely for nostalgia/fun. This car (Kia EV6) is *bleep*ing amazing, and I absolutely love it. I have no regrets, and zero complaints. Average range on 90% charge is just a tick over 300 miles. Level 2 charger installed at home, and I got $750 from my utility to install it, not to mention the $4,000 rebate I received from them for purchasing the car (on top of the $12,000 I received from the county for retiring the Avalon!). And on top of all that, as of 2025, KiA and Hyundai will be added to the tesla supercharger network, along with a few other manufacturers, so all of that whining about not enough charging stations is but a distant whisper, not that it was ever an issue here in California.

 

[easyrider]

I mean, not for nothing but this entire thread is full of examples like this with the results of your research being wildly inaccurate or easily debunked.

if there was no money in it, noone would be rolling these out at local mom and pop stations.

Think about this. No store or vending machine involved.

EV Go and Electrify America are two companies that have EV charging stations. These can operate without a store from what I see. Our city has an Electrify America station that has 4 chargers in a parking lot. No employee.

You have a gas pump capable of fueling a vehicle at 10 gallons a minute. You have a level 3 EV charger capable of charging at 50 to 500 kw depending on the charger taking anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour to completely energize the battery.

In the 15 minutes it took you to energize your battery, a gas pump is capable of delivering 150 gallons.

You tie up a charger for 15 minutes and pay what ? $23.00 ? How much of that is profit ?

The mark up on gas is around $0.15 a gallon. In one minute, pumping 10 gallons, the profit is about $1.50.

There is no way that an EV charger has the ability to make as much profit as a gas pump is what I think. Neither gas pump or EV charger are profitable without a store is what I think. Prove me wrong .

Bill

 

[easyrider]

I understood what you wrote. You didn't say you guessed that fuel profits were 15%, you stated " The average markup on gas is about 15%." You stated this as a fact, not a guess. You habitually do this with things that are merely a figment of your wild imagination.

I think I misquoted 15 cents per gallon as 15% profit. So what ? If that station sells 40,000 gallons they make $6000 a day instead of $4000.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

you seem to be talking about completely separate things and applying your claims to "all charging stations"...thats simply not the case.

My experience with public charging is ALWAYS at existing gas stations. claiming its a loss leader might be valid for those charging stations installed at malls or shopping centers etc, but not existing gas stations.

I dont have time to do the math but id imagine that % of "charging stations" that are simply random parking lots with nothing more than chargers installed is likely pretty low compared to "charging stations" at existing businesses or gas stations. (hotels/malls/etc)

 

[Passepartout]

Prove me wrong .

Bill

I think I misquoted 15 cents per gallon as 15% profit. So what ?

Bill

Bill, Nobody has to 'prove you wrong'. You do a good job by yourself.

In the end, people who have signed on to the 'EV is the future, gas is the past', are generally 'fueling their EVs at home, at off peak rates THEY can control. Sure travelers are pretty much subject to the vagaries of the market, just like travelers in ice vehicles are now. Choose where you refuel, based on location or convenience. Or price, but until we see big fluorescent XXcents per kWh sign on highways, we won't know.

 

[TUGBrian]

Think about this. No store or vending machine involved.

EV Go and Electrify America are two companies that have EV charging stations. These can operate without a store from what I see. Our city has an Electrify America station that has 4 chargers in a parking lot. No employee.

You have a gas pump capable of fueling a vehicle at 10 gallons a minute. You have a level 3 EV charger capable of charging at 50 to 500 kw depending on the charger taking anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour to completely energize the battery.

In the 15 minutes it took you to energize your battery, a gas pump is capable of delivering 150 gallons.

You tie up a charger for 15 minutes and pay what ? $23.00 ? How much of that is profit ?

The mark up on gas is around $0.15 a gallon. In one minute, pumping 10 gallons, the profit is about $1.50.

There is no way that an EV charger has the ability to make as much profit as a gas pump is what I think. Neither gas pump or EV charger are profitable without a store is what I think. Prove me wrong .

Bill

electricity is usually a fixed cost per kwh. if it cost a business 10 cents a kwh and they charge 60 cents a kwh...thats WAY more profitable than gas.

thatd be the equivalent of a gas station charging 20 dollars a gallon.

 

[easyrider]

I mean, not for nothing but this entire thread is full of examples like this with the results of your research being wildly inaccurate or easily debunked.

if there was no money in it, noone would be rolling these out at local mom and pop stations.

Pretty much all of the gas station convenience store business in our area don't have chargers. There have been several huge gas stations built in our valley within the last year. My thought is even with all of the Federal, State and local incentives, EV charging stations just aren't a thing anyone wants to do in our area. Washington State has about 170,000 bev's with most of these in the big cities like Seattle. There might be 1000 in our area but I never really see any other than my neighbors white Tesla.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Bill, Nobody has to 'prove you wrong'. You do a good job by yourself.

In the end, people who have signed on to the 'EV is the future, gas is the past', are generally 'fueling their EVs at home, at off peak rates THEY can control. Sure travelers are pretty much subject to the vagaries of the market, just like travelers in ice vehicles are now. Choose where you refuel, based on location or convenience.

Jim, you just jump in with a pile of bs with no knowledge of what's going on. I am talking about why no one is building EV stations in my area. I had thought it was a good idea as they are like vending machines but that isn't the case at all. In some areas they are likely a good investment. Where I live they would be a money pit. The reason is not too many people here drive ev's.

Idaho has 4,500 registered ev's. Why would anyone build an EV charging station in most places Idaho ?

Bill

 

[easyrider]

electricity is usually a fixed cost per kwh. if it cost a business 10 cents a kwh and they charge 60 cents a kwh...thats WAY more profitable than gas.

thatd be the equivalent of a gas station charging 20 dollars a gallon.

That seems like a huge stretch. A Tesla might take at the upper end to recharge 100kwh. 100kwh at a public chargers might cost about $60. The average kWh cost in the USA is about $0.17. So 100 kWh x $0.17 = $1.70 ? That can't be right, can it ? $60 - $1.70 = $58.30

If that is somewhat right then a charging station could make over $50 per hour ?

This doesn't seem right.

Bill

 

[Passepartout]

Why would anyone build an EV charging station in most places Idaho ?

Bill

I dunno. Ask the ones who put public chargers here. Like EVgo at Walmarts, and the local Ford, Chevrolet, Hyundai dealers, And the public libraries (they're free) and City Halls across the state. There is a (+-) dozen space Supercharger at the Visitor's Center. Ask them why they chose to build here. We charged for free at the Sun Valley Lodge, and in Island Park, near Yellowstone.

Bill, if you are looking for a business opportunity, I think you missed the party. It started without you.

 

[easyrider]

I dunno. Ask the ones who put public chargers here. Like EVgo at Walmarts, and the local Ford, Chevrolet, Hyundai dealers, And the public libraries (they're free) and City Halls across the state. There is a (+-) dozen space Supercharger at the Visitor's Center. Ask them why they chose to build here. We charged for free at the Sun Valley Lodge, and in Island Park, near Yellowstone.

Bill, if you are looking for a business opportunity, I think you missed the party. It started without you.

It hasn't started in Yakima, The Palm Springs Of Washington, yet. Most of the charging stations here are not in the best areas of town and certainly not too close to where the better neighborhoods are located.

My thought was to open a charging facility near the areas of where people live in multi-unit dwellings with no access to home charging because of all of the Federal, State and local government incentives. I think I would be better off by just buying another rental but the $50 per hour per charger makes me think there could be enough cash flow.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

That seems like a huge stretch. A Tesla might take at the upper end to recharge 100kwh. 100kwh at a public chargers might cost about $60. The average kWh cost in the USA is about $0.17. So 100 kWh x $0.17 = $1.70 ? That can't be right, can it ? $60 - $1.70 = $58.30

If that is somewhat right then a charging station could make over $50 per hour ?

This doesn't seem right.

Bill

you can easily look up charging rates on ev apps and such, its not a secret.

I am simply using my own area as an example. I pay roughly 9 cents a kwh for electricity, and the last charging station I visited charged 56c a kwh....but its been months since I visited that and I see people regularly claiming rates over 60cents...and given the prices of everything else in the world I doubt that trends downward.

call the average ev "fillup" 50kw for math purposes. 30 bucks gross for $5 cost (admittedly negating the cost of infrastructure, but we dont factor that into gas prices either). that's exponentially more profit than gas.

 

[TUGBrian]

Pretty much all of the gas station convenience store business in our area don't have chargers. There have been several huge gas stations built in our valley within the last year. My thought is even with all of the Federal, State and local incentives, EV charging stations just aren't a thing anyone wants to do in our area. Washington State has about 170,000 bev's with most of these in the big cities like Seattle. There might be 1000 in our area but I never really see any other than my neighbors white Tesla.

Bill

now you are just being circular. there was no claim that all gas stations had ev chargers....vs ev chargers being more often than not at gas stations or other places of business compared to an "empty lot with nothing but chargers".

further goes back to the point that most people simply charge from home.

 

[TUGBrian]

i mean not for nothing, i didnt even log into the ford or tesla app vs type into google maps....but "yakima" seems to have a fairly good selection of ev chargers?

seems an equal split between gas stations....walmarts...hotels...and "random lots of just chargers"

 

[easyrider]

that's exponentially more profit than gas.

It's definitely worth thinking about. $50 per hour x 12 is about $600 per hour but an average might be closer to half that. Cost to build is very little if you own the land.

further goes back to the point that most people simply charge from home.

I'm thinking its demographics. Older people aren't likely to change their driving. Most, like me, will keep their vehicles for a long time.

Younger car buyers might be the target market for ev's and EV charging stations. Many people in this demographic, under 35, live in multi-family dwellings and will need to use public chargers.

Where I live, the EV chargers are located at car dealerships, hotels and Walmart but not so much any mini market except one with one charger. I did mention the EV charger to a few people I know and it's an interesting idea but it comes down to how many ev's will need the service and in an area where there isn't very many ev's yet it isn't worth it to me yet. I like the no employee model and a stand alone automated type facility.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

i mean not for nothing, i didnt even log into the ford or tesla app vs type into google maps....but "yakima" seems to have a fairly good selection of ev chargers?

seems an equal split between gas stations....walmarts...hotels...and "random lots of just chargers"

View attachment 100132

I drive by these locations and they aren't really anything like the service center you posted about. All of these are located in the core crime area of our city. There are a couple of chargers in West Valley at a Walmart that I would consider safe at night. Maybe even the Walmart in this map is safe at night as they also sell gas but the other locations will have homeless wandering around.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

Another hurricane, and more incidents of flooded EV's spontaneously combusinting in people's garages:

https://www.wfla.com/news/pinellas-county/watch-tesla-flooded-from-hurricane-helene-catches-fire-inside-pinellas-garage/

It is obviously a problem
The owners of the EV's should be aware of the problem and fire danger
I heard it discussed on the weather channel while the hurricane was still in the gulf
Snow Birds may have been in their northern home and unable to get the car moved before the hurricane hit

 

[TUGBrian]

id likely pick the walmart as well, especially since i could totally kill 15minutes inside one while charging!

 

[Ken555]

I pay roughly 9 cents a kwh for electricity

**envious**

 

[Ken555]

Gotta luv that one of the most outspoken anti-ev (though he won't admit it) people on TUG who think the cars will catch fire and cause all sorts of problems is salivating at the opportunity to make money off EV owners. Takes all kinds, I guess.