You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[TUGBrian]

Hi Brian,

I have partially changed my mind and have acquired a bunch of valuable info from this thread. We have 2 ICE vehicles, both of which are relatively new. We use both mostly for around town but typically take four vacations a year that encompass driving 350 to 500 miles - - a bit of a stretch for BEVs.

But I'd probably be okay with a hybrid. And as battery technology, range and safety improves, maybe I'll switch over to either a hybrid or EV. As my wife and I get older, we'll be moving into a CCRC (old folks home) so maybe we'll be traveling less or not as far. But, at that point I won't be able to charge at lower home rates. But I live in California and even home rates are fairly expensive (like $ 0.30 to $ 0.35 per KWh. So, maybe in 5 years the technology will have continued to improve and the number of charging stations increased.

outstanding!

does cali not offer you to charge for less during off peak hours?

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm not the one that considers a Tesla a luxury suv or cuv. The info is from Tesla. To me, a better comparison of your self driving Tesla might be a Subaru hatchback. They are in the same price range and about the same size even though the Tesla weighs far more with less ground clearance.

To me, there is no such thing as a mini-suv. SUV's should be built on a truck frame.

Bill

I understand you may believe that - but the best selling vehicles at present are CUVs. Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Tesla MY, etc. What we believe is really moot with that in mind. If the best selling vehicles in the world were SUVs - Tesla would likely have built a SUV. Pickups outsell large SUVs by a long shot - which is why Tesla brought the Cybertruck to market - it's a pickup at heart - a polarizing pickup without a doubt - but a pickup none-the-less. I wouldn't put it past Tesla to make a SUV variant using the Cybertruck architecture if there is enough demand.

On the luxury topic - I just reviewed the entire Tesla MY site here: https://www.tesla.com/modely I didn't find a single reference to luxury in any of the descriptions on the Tesla website. Not saying you are right or wrong, but what is your source for this claim?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Hi Brian,

I have partially changed my mind and have acquired a bunch of valuable info from this thread. We have 2 ICE vehicles, both of which are relatively new. We use both mostly for around town but typically take four vacations a year that encompass driving 350 to 500 miles - - a bit of a stretch for BEVs.

But I'd probably be okay with a hybrid. And as battery technology, range and safety improves, maybe I'll switch over to either a hybrid or EV. As my wife and I get older, we'll be moving into a CCRC (old folks home) so maybe we'll be traveling less or not as far. But, at that point I won't be able to charge at lower home rates. But I live in California and even home rates are fairly expensive (like $ 0.30 to $ 0.35 per KWh. So, maybe in 5 years the technology will have continued to improve and the number of charging stations increased.

Cali has the highest density per capita of Tesla L3 public chargers, but also has the highest BEV (primarily Tesla) adoption rate of any US state - so Cali suffers from over-utilization of L3 public charger sites. This isn't an issue for folks anywhere outside of Cali for the most part, though you can find congestion at L3 public chargers in areas of D.C., NYC, etc., depending on the time of day (especially on weekends for example).

This reply is a great example of what I've addressed in other posts - that even home charging rates can be quite high depending on where you live. Certain areas of Cali have TOU plans, other's don't, it depends on the power companies used IIRC. A good friend of mine lives up in the New Haven area near Yale in CT, and his rates hover between 30-40 cents per kwh because that area generates most of their power from NG, which has increased in price markedly due aftereffects from the Ukrainian/Russian conflict.

Undoubtedly we will have much better L3 public charger infrastructure in five years compared to today - and much better home charging and L2 public charging infrastructure as well (mostly due to state level EV infrastructure rebate and discount programs). Who knows, maybe by then your CCRC might even have L2 chargers installed, only time will tell.

 

[Brett]

Hi Brian,

I have partially changed my mind and have acquired a bunch of valuable info from this thread. We have 2 ICE vehicles, both of which are relatively new. We use both mostly for around town but typically take four vacations a year that encompass driving 350 to 500 miles - - a bit of a stretch for BEVs.

But I'd probably be okay with a hybrid. And as battery technology, range and safety improves, maybe I'll switch over to either a hybrid or EV. As my wife and I get older, we'll be moving into a CCRC (old folks home) so maybe we'll be traveling less or not as far. But, at that point I won't be able to charge at lower home rates. But I live in California and even home rates are fairly expensive (like $ 0.30 to $ 0.35 per KWh. So, maybe in 5 years the technology will have continued to improve and the number of charging stations increased.

Battery technology is already here!
We own two hybrid autos, Toyota and Honda. With 40+ mpg and 500+ mile range, I wouldn't go back to a gas only car
................. well, if someone gave me a '63 Corvette stingray coupe I might drive it on Sunday afternoons

 

[HitchHiker71]

Battery technology is already here!
We own two hybrid autos, Toyota and Honda. With 40+ mpg and 500+ mile range, I wouldn't go back to a gas only car
................. well, if someone gave me a '63 Corvette stingray coupe I might drive it on Sunday afternoons

HEVs/PHEVs are a great option for many who don't want to make the big jump to BEV. Many offer 30-50 miles of EV only power - enough to provide EV only power for work commutes and local errands, while also offering extended travel capabilities using the ICE when needed. We're seeing more models coming to market that are hybrid, but only use the ICE to recharge the battery pack - in other words the powertrain is EV only - the ICE is not connected to the powertrain at all. The RAM REV 1500 coming to market has the RAMCharger model that does this and offers up to 700 miles of range for example.

 

[easyrider]

I understand you may believe that - but the best selling vehicles at present are CUVs. Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Tesla MY, etc. What we believe is really moot with that in mind. If the best selling vehicles in the world were SUVs - Tesla would likely have built a SUV. Pickups outsell large SUVs by a long shot - which is why Tesla brought the Cybertruck to market - it's a pickup at heart - a polarizing pickup without a doubt - but a pickup none-the-less. I wouldn't put it past Tesla to make a SUV variant using the Cybertruck architecture if there is enough demand.

On the luxury topic - I just reviewed the entire Tesla MY site here: https://www.tesla.com/modely I didn't find a single reference to luxury in any of the descriptions on the Tesla website. Not saying you are right or wrong, but what is your source for this claim?

It wasn't Tesla describing Tesla as a luxury. It's Car and Driver. Tesla S ranks 7th in the luxury bev sedan category. I thought Tesla was the source. Tesla doesn't show up as a SUV or cuv at car and driver top vehicles lists.

If the best selling vehicles are CUV's, with the U meaning utility,Tesla becomes a sedan, imo.. Utility means you can go off road. Tesla has between 5 and 7 inches of road clearance. A Rav 4 has about 8.6 inches. A CRV has about 8.2 inches of ground clearance. To me, I would consider a Tesla not off road worthy the same as I would any car with 5 inches of clearance.

When Tesla production goes to Mexico do you still think the quality will be the same ?

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

id consider a Tesla model s a luxury sedan.

i wouldnt compare it a luxury caddilac suv however. That said it it offers a quieter, smoother and all around better ride than my wifes escalade....all being 2x as fast too!

 

[easyrider]

all being 2x as fast too!

That would be the draw for me. The Tesla Roadster was a really cool looking fast car, imo. The other Tesla models just don't look as robust or anywhere near cool, imo.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

id consider a Tesla model s a luxury sedan.

i wouldnt compare it a luxury caddilac suv however. That said it it offers a quieter, smoother and all around better ride than my wifes escalade....all being 2x as fast too!

Agreed MS and MX are the premium Tesla made vehicles that would qualify as luxury vehicles - though even those models are notably spartan compared to many luxury legacy vehicles. The ride is nicer because both of these models use adjustable air suspensions (as does the Cybertruck).


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[HitchHiker71]

It wasn't Tesla describing Tesla as a luxury. It's Car and Driver. Tesla S ranks 7th in the luxury bev sedan category. I thought Tesla was the source. Tesla doesn't show up as a SUV or cuv at car and driver top vehicles lists.

That’s the only number that really matters. I can appreciate C&Ds opinions, I’ve read their magazine for many years now, but they aren’t any real authority and are at least somewhat subjective in nature. The fact is that the Tesla MY was the best selling vehicle in the world in 2023, and that’s pretty impressive given it’s a BEV. Even within the US, and even using C&D stats, the MY was 5th in the top selling vehicles. It was only outsold by the RAV4 and the big three pickup lines:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/

If the best selling vehicles are CUV's, with the U meaning utility,Tesla becomes a sedan, imo.. Utility means you can go off road. Tesla has between 5 and 7 inches of road clearance. A Rav 4 has about 8.6 inches. A CRV has about 8.2 inches of ground clearance. To me, I would consider a Tesla not off road worthy the same as I would any car with 5 inches of clearance.

Again, I hear you but statistically the vast majority of US consumers literally never off road. Ever. Most that do actually off-road buy either Jeeps or pickups with off-road performance packages for the most part, and even in those cases, the majority of owners still never go off-road. That’s a niche use case as a result. I own and drive an ICE pickup that is off-road capable and have gone off road many times over the years since we surf fish and like driving on dirt mountain roads randomly from time to time, so I take your point, but it’s very much the exception statistically these days.

When Tesla production goes to Mexico do you still think the quality will be the same ?

Bill

Gigamexico is on hold for now, and it was intended to manufacture the rumored 25k BEV vehicle that hasn’t even been announced or unveiled yet, along with the robotaxi vehicle, based on the same platform, that will not ever be driven by any human. The robotaxi variant won’t even have a steering wheel or pedals. This Tesla product announcement is currently scheduled for 10/10/2024. Gigamexico was never intended to produce any current production Tesla vehicles. I track Tesla very closely as an invested stockholder.


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[TUGBrian]

That would be the draw for me. The Tesla Roadster was a really cool looking fast car, imo. The other Tesla models just don't look as robust or anywhere near cool, imo.

Bill

its really a remarkable car given the current resale price point. Ive seen S p100d's now trickle into the 25k price range. you really cant quite explain what 600-800hp feels like when its available on demand even at 0rpm. all with heated/cooled seats, ice cold ac, zero shifts and what is likely one of the quietest and smoothest rides in any car made today.

if that sort of acceleration (or even a fraction of it as you zip around town) doesnt make you smile, you simply arent a car guy. Ill never give up my love for ICE cars but there is simply no arguing what these vehicles can do.

 

[Ken555]

Ive seen S p100d's now trickle into the 25k price range.

I’ve been looking at these, along with the P90D and a few others. I don’t need the speed, don’t care, but do want the better battery and the few I’ve seen so far have less mileage than other variants of the same year. I’m not in any rush, though, so I have time to find one that fits.

 

[HitchHiker71]

its really a remarkable car given the current resale price point. Ive seen S p100d's now trickle into the 25k price range. you really cant quite explain what 600-800hp feels like when its available on demand even at 0rpm. all with heated/cooled seats, ice cold ac, zero shifts and what is likely one of the quietest and smoothest rides in any car made today.

if that sort of acceleration (or even a fraction of it as you zip around town) doesnt make you smile, you simply arent a car guy. Ill never give up my love for ICE cars but there is simply no arguing what these vehicles can do.

A good friend of mine has a 2022 Tesla MS Plaid - it’s a stunningly fast vehicle - beats most hyper/super cars in a straight line. 60mph in under two seconds, 1/4 mile in well under 10 ten seconds at 140+mph. Yet set it on comfort mode and it cruises along quietly and smoothly just like any luxury car.

Heck, our MY LR has the acceleration boost option, and hits 60mph in just under four seconds and hits the 1/4 mile in low 12s at 110-112 mph. That’s pretty stellar for a CUV really. I have embarrassed quite a few muscle cars in a straight line - and yes they were trying - but you simply cannot beat 100% power and instant torque sent at the speed of electrons. You can hole shot just about any ICE vehicle as a result.


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[easyrider]

its really a remarkable car given the current resale price point. Ive seen S p100d's now trickle into the 25k price range. you really cant quite explain what 600-800hp feels like when its available on demand even at 0rpm. all with heated/cooled seats, ice cold ac, zero shifts and what is likely one of the quietest and smoothest rides in any car made today.

if that sort of acceleration (or even a fraction of it as you zip around town) doesnt make you smile, you simply arent a car guy. Ill never give up my love for ICE cars but there is simply no arguing what these vehicles can do.

In the right color the S p100d looks sporty enough. I actually pulled one up off CarGurus to show my wife. She said no with a big smile.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

haha, oddly enough my wife said the same thing! I personally dont care for the model Ys appearance and the S was just not "family/kid friendly" enough for me and that ended my path of becoming a tesla owner!

I chose the f150 lightning instead(though admittedly ford offering 25k off msrp helped quite a bit with the decision!). With the extended range battery it also produces nearly 600hp and over 300 miles of range! While nowhere near as peppy as a model S (a p/d model anyway), its still very smile inducing when you want to get up and go and is much easier for the kids to get in and out of (or better yet, to remove car seats in and out of).

used model s plaids also plummeting in resale price faster than some timeshares! ive yet to ride in one but can only imagine what another 400hp would feel like (previously only been in a p100d)

 

[HitchHiker71]

haha, oddly enough my wife said the same thing! I personally dont care for the model Ys appearance and the S was just not "family/kid friendly" enough for me and that ended my path of becoming a tesla owner!

I chose the f150 lightning instead(though admittedly ford offering 25k off msrp helped quite a bit with the decision!). With the extended range battery it also produces nearly 600hp and over 300 miles of range! While nowhere near as peppy as a model S (a p/d model anyway), its still very smile inducing when you want to get up and go and is much easier for the kids to get in and out of (or better yet, to remove car seats in and out of).

used model s plaids also plummeting in resale price faster than some timeshares! ive yet to ride in one but can only imagine what another 400hp would feel like (previously only been in a p100d)

How do you like the F150L? Which year and model do you have? I know the 2024 models switched over to a true heat pump HVAC system like Tesla has these days as opposed to the older resistance heating systems. A 25k discount is pretty hefty - nice deal! Did that include the $7500 POS federal tax credit? The F150L can snap off a 60mph dash in four seconds flat - that's pretty impressive for such a large vehicle really. I've driven one a couple of times, I like the F150L platinum model especially - it's got a really nice ride (similar to the air ride in my 2018 RAM 1500) - I just wish they would offer the F150L with a 6.5 foot standard bed as opposed to the only the short bed.

 

[HitchHiker71]

In the right color the S p100d looks sporty enough. I actually pulled one up off CarGurus to show my wife. She said no with a big smile.

Bill

Go drive one - seriously - just go drive one - take the leap and try it out. Why not, nothing to lose really. Take your wife with you as well.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I’ve been looking at these, along with the P90D and a few others. I don’t need the speed, don’t care, but do want the better battery and the few I’ve seen so far have less mileage than other variants of the same year. I’m not in any rush, though, so I have time to find one that fits.

Time is on your side - sooner or later a MS that fits your exact requirements will come onto the market. Just a question of when. Happy hunting!

 

[easyrider]

Go drive one - seriously - just go drive one - take the leap and try it out. Why not, nothing to lose really. Take your wife with you as well.

In our situation it makes better sense to utilize section 179 tax credits for a used vehicle weighing 6000 pounds +. We can purchase a used SUV and depreciate $30,500 of the cost. We can also write off a good portion of the operating expenses.

Bill

 

[TUGBrian]

How do you like the F150L? Which year and model do you have? I know the 2024 models switched over to a true heat pump HVAC system like Tesla has these days as opposed to the older resistance heating systems. A 25k discount is pretty hefty - nice deal! Did that include the $7500 POS federal tax credit? The F150L can snap off a 60mph dash in four seconds flat - that's pretty impressive for such a large vehicle really. I've driven one a couple of times, I like the F150L platinum model especially - it's got a really nice ride (similar to the air ride in my 2018 RAM 1500) - I just wish they would offer the F150L with a 6.5 foot standard bed as opposed to the only the short bed.

its been flawless sofar (i live in Florida and charge at home)...and my daily commute is simply to pick up my kids at school.

few odd quirks, but nothing even worth complaining about sofar and they have all gone away on their own or with later ota updates.

I previously owned an ecoboost f150 that I sold after covid due to lack of use and always regretted it as I really liked owning that truck. This new one is just better in every way shape or form. Yes part of the 25k off was the 7500 tax credit...took awahile to find a dealer willing to take that off at point of sale! The platinum model is too expensive to qualify for the 7500 off so you would be looking at a lariat or xlt option to add that to the discount!

 

[TUGBrian]

In our situation it makes better sense to utilize section 179 tax credits for a used vehicle weighing 6000 pounds +. We can purchase a used SUV and depreciate $30,500 of the cost. We can also write off a good portion of the operating expenses.

Bill

the model x qualifies for that! as does the f150 lightning oddly enough!

is also a 4k tax deduction for used EVs under 25k making a model s even more attractive!

pro tip, some 2015-2017 model s's come with free supercharging for life which could REALLY rack up some savings for the right owner!

 

[Ken555]

is also a 4k tax deduction for used EVs under 25k making a model s even more attractive!

Just be aware of the income limits in order to qualify for that 4k.

pro tip, some 2015-2017 model s's come with free supercharging for life which could REALLY rack up some savings for the right owner!

This is one of the reasons I’m looking at those years. So far I’m focusing on the 2016.5 or 2017 models with included supercharging (many of those cars also seem to have lifetime premium connectivity, which is an additional minor savings). I’ve found some with as little as 5k miles though I thought those with <25k were too expensive.

 

[TUGBrian]

if i had a long(ish) commute with a supercharger along the way there is no doubt id have chosen a used 2016ish tesla S. even if a drive unit or similar went out you would more than pay for the cost of the car and replacement drive unit in essentially "free gas" forever.

as it is now, I think ive used a public charging station twice since buying the lightning, neither of which required me to stop...I only did so because i wanted to see how things worked and the cost per kw at different stations!

 

[HitchHiker71]

if i had a long(ish) commute with a supercharger along the way there is no doubt id have chosen a used 2016ish tesla S. even if a drive unit or similar went out you would more than pay for the cost of the car and replacement drive unit in essentially "free gas" forever.

as it is now, I think ive used a public charging station twice since buying the lightning, neither of which required me to stop...I only did so because i wanted to see how things worked and the cost per kw at different stations!

We now regularly use our 2023 Tesla MY LR for road trips. This weekend we will be heading to Wyndam Old Town Alexandria for a Saturday evening concert, arriving Friday evening. It’s about 120 miles each direction, which consumes about 40-50% of the pack. We charge to 90% before leaving and then enjoy free L2 public charging in the OTA parking garage that is shared with the Hilton (IIRC) hotel. The garage has three BEV charging parking spots - two of them are Tesla L2 NACS wall chargers and the third is a GE L2 J1772 wall charger. We juice up for free as a result. Nice perk.

We also head to Wyndham Shawnee quite often - we will be there in October for a long weekend - it’s about 138 miles each direction - we use about 50-60% of the pack - and we use local Tesla L3 public chargers in the area to charge back up at some point either over the weekend or on the way back home if we don’t drive enough locally to warrant a charging stop while there.

A few times a year we head up to Wyndham Bentley Brook - which has 6-8 free L2 public chargers. That’s about 280-300 miles each way, so we will stop once on the way up somewhere north of NYC to charge while eating lunch or dinner, and then we charge for free on resort.

The farthest we have ventured is about 600 miles each way - down to Myrtle Beach area - and that requires three charging stops for a total of about 50 minutes of charging time. Nine hours total. The best we have ever done in our ICE vehicle is nine hours.

It’s all point and click for charging, requires no effort other than entering your destination into the navigation system and then using FSD to drive the vehicle for the vast majority of the trip. Easy peasy.

Like you, our daily usage driving is via 100% home charging with a Tesla wall charger at off peak overnight rates around 10-13 cents per kWh.

 

[TUGBrian]

I made a note to mention the ev charging spots right up front in the parking garage at wyndham ocean walk during our last visit. though they were always "full" when I walked down...not that I did so daily or anything...but it did not appear those vehicles moved very much during their stay!

still waiting on the tesla adapter that was provided for free by ford when purchasing the truck. thankfully I have not needed it as its been months now and still no expected shipping date.