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You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

easyrider said:
I think you are talking about regulatory tax credits. It will likely change as regulations change. It isn't unexpected and has been discussed in ways to receive a tax credit on an ev. This is about all that can be said about it on Tug, imo. So zip it, zip, zip, zip, lol. ;)

Bill
Click to expand...
I am talking about Carbon Credits
They are sold by EV manufacturers to other car companies
At some manufacturers, they account for a significant amount of the profit

For more information
Use your preferred search engine and query "Carbon Credits"
 
emeryjre said:
I am talking about Carbon Credits
They are sold by EV manufacturers to other car companies
At some manufacturers, they account for a significant amount of the profit

For more information
Use your preferred search engine and query "Carbon Credits"
Click to expand...
So am I. They are a regulatory tax credit and will be affected by changes to the regulations, imo.

Bill
 
HitchHiker71 said:
Fortunately we haven’t seen any of the anti-Tesla sentiments in our area yet. From what I’ve seen most of it seems centered on the CT owners since that was already a polarizing model due to its design. There are some killer discounts on the outgoing MYs right now. I may end up picking up a new MYP myself before end of month.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The newest email I received offered 0 percent financing. By May, when the Tesla stock pile is beyond overflowing, there might be some better offers.

Bill
 
china_musk.jpg


https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/13/business/tesla-china-sales-elon-musk.html?searchResultPosition=1

"Tesla is getting crushed in China"

"Tesla’s sales in China are plunging"

"Tesla’s driving technology is no longer cutting edge compared with local rivals"

"Chinese drivers that once flocked to Tesla are turning more and more to local brands that offer more efficient cars with better technology, sometimes at half the price.

"Tesla’s biggest rival, the electric car giant BYD, sold 481,318 cars in the first two months of this year, over three quarters more than it did over the same period last year. Tesla sold 60,480 vehicles in the first two months of the year, a drop of 14 percent from last year."

"You could buy two of our cars for the price of one Tesla."
 
easyrider said:
The newest email I received offered 0 percent financing. By May, when the Tesla stock pile is beyond overflowing, there might be some better offers.

Bill
Click to expand...
Just keep in mind that the $7500 federal tax credit may go away at any point in time - so even with zero percent financing - especially if you're going to put down a healthy deposit in the way of trade-ins and/or cash - saving on financing oftentimes doesn't add up to $7500. For example, I'm looking at a 2025 MYP for $45,470 after discounts - not including tax credits - if I sell my truck - that's $25000 down - after discounts that's roughly a $200/month payment over 72 months at 5.84% (can probably get a better rate but that's the rate on the Tesla website so I'm using it in this example) - interest over that loan is only about $1500 all total - and that's assuming we won't pay it off early - which we would of course. If I were to wait and lose out on the $7500 federal tax credit - but get a 0% or 0.99% loan rate - I'm still coming out having spent more money overall to buy the vehicle by waiting.

Also, if you qualify for the $7500 federal tax credit now, then you get both the tax credit, and zero percent financing (which is only on the Model 3 last I checked - not any other models). That's quite the combination of incentives - plus anything your state gives you. Delaware state gives a $2500 rebate on the M3 and a $1500 rebate on the MY, in addition to the federal tax credit. These incentives add up in a big way, at least IMHO.
 
Brett said:
View attachment 107609

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/13/business/tesla-china-sales-elon-musk.html?searchResultPosition=1

"Tesla is getting crushed in China"

"Tesla’s sales in China are plunging"

"Tesla’s driving technology is no longer cutting edge compared with local rivals"

"Chinese drivers that once flocked to Tesla are turning more and more to local brands that offer more efficient cars with better technology, sometimes at half the price.

"Tesla’s biggest rival, the electric car giant BYD, sold 481,318 cars in the first two months of this year, over three quarters more than it did over the same period last year. Tesla sold 60,480 vehicles in the first two months of the year, a drop of 14 percent from last year."

"You could buy two of our cars for the price of one Tesla."
Click to expand...
As usual, context is king. The claim is that Tesla vehicle sales are down by 14% so far this year, and that's likely an accurate assessment, but the statement doesn't include more context, namely that Gigafactory Shanghai shut down in late 2024 to retool for the new Model Y and is still ramping up production. Given the Model Y is the best selling Tesla vehicle in China, this is important context - in point of fact - in China alone - there are over 250k new Model Y orders already, yet to be fulfilled due to the factory production ramp. In other words, right now, there's actually pent up demand for the new Model Y refresh in China. When you take your best selling factory model offline to retool, logic dictates that you're going to see a drop in production and deliveries, but we've also seen a serious rise in pent up demand.

The claim that BYD sold 481,318 cars is somewhat unverified: https://x.com/i/grok/share/rSpjFNMpXRv2DByR52k3KYbhn

At the very least, it's important to point out that BYD reports NEV sales in that number - or Newly Energized Vehicles - which include HEV/PHEV/BEV sales all in one number. Since Tesla only sells BEVs, that's not really a fair comparison is it? If we compare BEV sales to BEV sales - that's a fair comparison. Let's look at January numbers for example, Grok says that BYD sold:
  • Total NEV sales: 300,538 (passenger + commercial vehicles).
  • Passenger BEVs: 125,377.
  • Passenger PHEVs: 171,069.
So the fair number for January to use is 125k for comparison's sake. Still a great number for BYD no doubt, YoY, but my point is, statements like that from NYT are intentionally misleading and intentionally neglect to give the real, whole story. I wonder why that is? I'll leave it at that - as @easyrider said - zip zip zip!

Lastly, Tesla just received approval to start introducing FSD in China last month - in February 2025. So when news outlets make statements like Tesla's driving technology is no longer cutting edge compared with local rivals, I wonder what that even means given FSD wasn't even IN China until last month - and it is currently only being deployed via test phases at this time to gather data since it hasn't been used in China at all prior and a wealth of data is required before FSD goes mainstream in China. Again, context is king, and this particular news outlet is obviously biased IMHO.
 
Chinese consumption has shifted back to buying Chinese rather than American
Apple is another company with declining sales in China
How Tesla will fare in the next 12 months in China is being debated by many different brokerage firm analysts
The analysts have varying opinions from bullish to bearish
No one has an edge in their analysis
Only time will tell
 
Last edited:
Does anyone here own a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV)? If so, what advantages do you find over a regular hybrid or full-out EV? Any downsides to PHEVs in your personal experience?

I'm just considering all the options out there and making some comparisons and contrasts.
 
emeryjre said:
Chinese consumption has shifted back to buying Chinese rather than American
Apple is another company with declining sales in China
How Tesla will fare in the next 12 months in China is being debated by many different brokerage firm analysts
The analysts have varying opinions from bullish to bearish
No one has an edge in their analysis
Only time will tell
Click to expand...
No argument here - it's likely related to the global shift away from globalist tendencies toward nationalist tendencies more than anything. Many countries, the US included, are prioritizing policy that encourages localized goods and services - China is no exception given their growing middle class that can afford more consumption. Get our your popcorn and bingo card - it's going to be an interesting next few years without a doubt given these sea change type shifts.
 
LannyPC said:
Does anyone here own a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV)? If so, what advantages do you find over a regular hybrid or full-out EV? Any downsides to PHEVs in your personal experience?

I'm just considering all the options out there and making some comparisons and contrasts.
Click to expand...
Can't say that I've owned a PHEV - but the only downside I see is that HEVs/PHEVs are complex than either BEVs or ICE. Fire risk is therefore highest with HEV/PHEV variants - but that's relative given the overall risk big picture is still very low across the board. Potentially the complexity could lead to higher maintenance costs over the long term in particular. That said, I'd probably sway toward Toyota for a HEV/PHEV selection - they seem to have the best overall track record and the best reliability. As to how to decide between a HEV vs PHEV - IMHO it comes down to vehicle use. If it's a daily driver using 30-40 miles a day to commute to work (or wherever) for example, where a PHEV could only use the battery for the daily driving, with the occasional long distance trip every now and again, then a PHEV may be the better choice. If you're constantly traveling longer distances though, a HEV may be the better choice since you can forgo charging altogether, yet still get the benefits of regen braking and battery usage over a much longer distance.
 
HitchHiker71 said:
No argument here - it's likely related to the global shift away from globalist tendencies toward nationalist tendencies more than anything. Many countries, the US included, are prioritizing policy that encourages localized goods and services - China is no exception given their growing middle class that can afford more consumption. Get our your popcorn and bingo card - it's going to be an interesting next few years without a doubt given these sea change type shifts.
Click to expand...

I think the main reason the people in China have shifted away from Western products is the Chinese economy hasn't improved much since Covid. Other issues are their real estate problems, escalating unemployment rate and weak consumer spending. Basically, the Chinese economy is not doing well.

Bill
 
LannyPC said:
Does anyone here own a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV)? If so, what advantages do you find over a regular hybrid or full-out EV? Any downsides to PHEVs in your personal experience?

I'm just considering all the options out there and making some comparisons and contrasts.
Click to expand...

My sister has a Prius Prime. She really likes it. I think they look ok and there is plenty of room for what it is. It isn't used for long road trips. They bought it new and haven't had any problems with it. To me, I wouldn't consider buying anything other than a Toyota regarding a plug in hybrid as Toyota has been doing this the longest and are known to be reliable.

Bill
 
LannyPC said:
Does anyone here own a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV)? If so, what advantages do you find over a regular hybrid or full-out EV? Any downsides to PHEVs in your personal experience?
Click to expand...

HitchHiker71 said:
Can't say that I've owned a PHEV - but the only downside I see is that HEVs/PHEVs are complex than either BEVs or ICE. Fire risk is therefore highest with HEV/PHEV variants - but that's relative given the overall risk big picture is still very low across the board. Potentially the complexity could lead to higher maintenance costs over the long term in particular. That said, I'd probably sway toward Toyota for a HEV/PHEV selection - they seem to have the best overall track record and the best reliability. As to how to decide between a HEV vs PHEV - IMHO it comes down to vehicle use. If it's a daily driver using 30-40 miles a day to commute to work (or wherever) for example, where a PHEV could only use the battery for the daily driving, with the occasional long distance trip every now and again, then a PHEV may be the better choice. If you're constantly traveling longer distances though, a HEV may be the better choice since you can forgo charging altogether, yet still get the benefits of regen braking and battery usage over a much longer distance.
Click to expand...

I own a Toyota RAV4 Prime which is a PHEV. 42 miles EV capability (with very conservative driving I can get 52 in the summer). As HitchHiker71 indicated it fits my use case where I typically drive less than 42 miles a day, but additionally go on long trips (260 miles or more round trip) on average once a month. Thus for daily driving I can use EV mode, and for long distance driving I can use HV mode with no worries about EV charging infrastructure, or charging times (or even charging time at home if for some reason I forget to plug it in). I currently just use my standard 120V outlet (12 amp max) to charge it overnight (approx 11 hours). The technology for the combination of ICE and electric motors/generators has been used way back in the Toyota Prius models and is very reliable using a planetary gear system to mesh the ICE and electric motors/generators.

Whether getting a PHEV over an HV is more economical depends on the initial cost of the PHEV compared to the HV (PHEV typically cost more since they have a much bigger hybrid battery than a comparable HV), and the amount you expect to save with the PHEV for the miles you drive per year in electric mode and hybrid mode using your expected electric rate charging costs and gas costs. Maintenance costs are about the same as both have and ICE and hybrid battery. HVs can run in all electric mode for about a mile at the most (and intermittently). PHEVs can generally accelerate faster then HVs but less than BEVs, if that matters.

Compared to a BEV, you need to look how often you go on long trips for the route you want to go to see if EV charging infrastructure and charging times are acceptable to you (unless you have a gas car as well or it makes economic sense to rent a gas car for those trips over the year if you will only have a BEV). Possibly the BEV battery range will always be enough for those trips without having to recharge while on the trip. Likewise you need to look at electric rates in your area to see if makes sense economically over the cost of gas (now or some estimate in the future), as well as initial cost and less maintenance for a BEV. One nice thing about a PHEV or Hybrid is that currently on a trip I can pull off pretty much exactly where I want to eat (some desired restaurant) and then fill up afterwards in a few minutes. I don't have to worry about finding a charging station within walking distance of the place I eat if I want to overlap longer charging times with eating (granted you may be able to do that on other rest breaks you take if you normally take multiple rest breaks and depending on how long a rest break you take). Also you need to determine if you will need more than the standard 120V house outlet for charging, such as a level 2 charger in your house for BEV charging and have your wiring updated or one installed if needed or not already there.

You can also factor in carbon emission if you want to.
 
Last edited:
easyrider said:
I think the main reason the people in China have shifted away from Western products is the Chinese economy hasn't improved much since Covid. Other issues are their real estate problems, escalating unemployment rate and weak consumer spending. Basically, the Chinese economy is not doing well.

Bill
Click to expand...


yeah ... riiiight ;)




'

March 15, 2025

china_st.jpg

https://www.wsj.com/world/china/china-economic-data-shows-surprising-signs-of-strength-815a9c9c



china1.jpg


https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/chinas-auto-market-heats-ev-boom-subsidies-price-wars
 

Tesla’s Self-Driving Fails the Wile E. Coyote Test​

Turns out LiDAR might have some benefits.

Tesla's Self-Driving Fails the Wile E. Coyote Test

Turns out LiDAR might have some benefits.
gizmodo.com gizmodo.com


PS: Watch and you will see how the track at Space Mountain looks in the light.
 
DrQ said:

Tesla’s Self-Driving Fails the Wile E. Coyote Test​

Turns out LiDAR might have some benefits.

Tesla's Self-Driving Fails the Wile E. Coyote Test

Turns out LiDAR might have some benefits.
gizmodo.com gizmodo.com


PS: Watch and you will see how the track at Space Mountain looks in the light.
Click to expand...

This video has been thoroughly debunked online - to the point that the author - Mark Rober - has officially publicly apologized as it did NOT use FSD - it was only using Autopilot - and he admittedly was recently paid $3 million dollars from the competing video sponsor, Luminar, for his primary business - refuse recovery from the oceans - which shows clear bias. Chinese Tesla owners ran the same test as well using FSD late yesterday, and surprise surprise could not reproduce this issue. Mark has lost a ton of integrity over this issue this week.

He even tried posting his raw footage - during which he clearly doesn’t enable Autopilot (again - not FSD) until three seconds before he hits the wall - which is altogether different than the original video he posted - which means he doctored the videos - or ran multiple tests - which again he never discloses anywhere.



EDIT:

Here’s another example using FSD in a CT:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1902819505891676252

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Brett said:
lol,, the Wall Street Journal is in on the conspiracy ;)
..


meanwhile

View attachment 107942
.
View attachment 107943
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/byd-china-ev-maker-charge-five-minutes/
Click to expand...

The advantage BYD has is it is owned by the PRC. The PRC has built an entire city to manufacture BYD ev's. The PRC incentives their citizens to purchase BYD ev's.

The 5 minute charge is a game changer if it's a real life situation instead of a made to succeed situation. In other words, it could be true but until I see a review from a trusted source like Car and Driver I have doubts.

Bill
 
EV Battery recycling recovery rates continue to improve
The problem now is finding enough used batteries to make the investment cost effective

www.greencarreports.com

EV battery recycling breakthrough recovers 99.99% of lithium

Such claims don't always scale up, but it brings hope for an even higher rate of recovered lithium for new EV batteries—and less harm to the environment.
www.greencarreports.com www.greencarreports.com
 
HitchHiker71 said:
Tesla just received approval to start introducing FSD in China last month - in February 2025. So when news outlets make statements like Tesla's driving technology is no longer cutting edge compared with local rivals, I wonder what that even means given FSD wasn't even IN China until last month
Click to expand...

It mean China isn't liking Tesla anymore. It seems Canada doesn't like Tesla and there is plenty of the same feelings here. Would this be considered fud ?

Bill
 
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