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You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

easyrider

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Let's also clearly state that oil and gas pricing is set by the global marketplace, and not anywhere else

It's totally manipulated. One thing that can lower prices is using resources from North America only, build refineries and add pipelines. North America could be energy independent.

I just heard that EV chargers that were planned in the Inflation Reduction Act are no longer happening. I have a feeling that EV charging mandates for new commercial construction & remodeling will be next.

Bill
 

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VERY cold temperatures??? No regular sunshine - especially winter when we have nuclear grey days? 4-wheel drive to get in and out of snow? The electric would never work where we live. Disposal of batteries another issue. Charging stations are far and few between up here. As dad said...."that is why we do not all drive black Fords". Choice...Freedom to choose...
 

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My bet is a new trade war will start this month with China. The two reasons I think this is #45 is now #47 and will continue what #45 started regarding the previous trade war with China and the Year of the Snake has begun. The Year of the Snake coincides with promises of massive tariffs on Chinese products which will keep the USD strong in relation to Asian currencies.

As far as EV production goes, when regulations on ice disappear in the USA so will the requirements to build ev's.

Bill
 

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It's totally manipulated. One thing that can lower prices is using resources from North America only, build refineries and add pipelines. North America could be energy independent.
How exactly is an open market good manipulated? How exactly do you propose to have privately owned and/or publicly owned companies build refineries and add pipelines and then only use their oil supply at discounted prices within North America without converting said companies to state owned oil companies? That's the only way other countries provide discounted gas prices to their citizens today. ALL oil companies sell their raw and/or refined products at market prices here in the US in comparison. The entire concept of "energy independence" in an open market economy doesn't really make sense. ALL US companies sell their products to the highest bidder today effectively. Those companies don't care if that product is put on a ship to go to other countries, or shipped locally to US ports and/or via train or truck. They could care less - it goes to whomever will pay them the most - or via existing contractual agreements in place. Let's consult AI on this topic as follows: https://x.com/i/grok/share/9iK6yrqghv9yipCCu8huvWI8E

1738179885889.png


So per above, 31-40% of all US oil suppliers export their petroleum products outside of the US to other countries - because that's where they get the best price for their goods. That number rises to 50% if we include refined products on average. Again, are you embracing state owned/run oil companies? Your logic makes no sense to me.
I just heard that EV chargers that were planned in the Inflation Reduction Act are no longer happening. I have a feeling that EV charging mandates for new commercial construction & remodeling will be next.

Bill

LOL - the DOT literally built like 10 EV stations to date with the tens of billions they were allocated (failure) - the vast majority of EV charging stations have been, are, and will be built by private companies - just like gas stations were/are/will be. This will have almost zero impact on EV adoption moving forward IMHO. Tesla continues to rapidly expand it's SC network for example, as are many other commercial entities leading the way for EV charging stations.
 

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VERY cold temperatures??? No regular sunshine - especially winter when we have nuclear grey days? 4-wheel drive to get in and out of snow? The electric would never work where we live. Disposal of batteries another issue. Charging stations are far and few between up here. As dad said...."that is why we do not all drive black Fords". Choice...Freedom to choose...
There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of EV owners up in Canada - farther north than you - who do just fine with EVs. Almost all EVs are AWD by default - so snow isn't a problem especially with snow tires. Plenty of real world folks in worse conditions than where you live use EVs every day without any issues. Battery packs are 95% recyclable, unlike the zero percent of gas burned into the atmosphere every day. Tesla recycled 500+ metric tons per month of battery packs in Q4 2024 alone at Gigafactory Nevada - and it's only going up over time: https://x.com/i/grok/share/7uGzVoIto5lKj1lg3n6CJIbf2

1738180598309.png


That said, I agree 100% it's all about consumer choice. But the same old tired internet talking points that have been thoroughly debunked aren't cutting it any longer. ;)
 

easyrider

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The entire concept of "energy independence" in an open market economy doesn't really make sense. ALL US companies sell their products to the highest bidder today effectively

What you are missing is the "tariffs" that mean oil really isn't in as open a market as you might think.

Oil procured from the USA is more than the USA refineries can handle because of environmental concerns making it impossible for old refineries to continue and new refineries to be built. The USA produces enough oil to be oil dependent but because of the lack of refineries has to about export about 40% of the oil produced . Then the USA has to import oil and refined oil products because of the lack of refineries in the USA. #46 created a war on oil in the USA ,but oddly no where else, which costed the USA billions.

No, the companies don't "effectively sell oil to the highest bidder" because the USA is charged a higher tariff to export its oil than to import it. This is ridiculous as all the USA needs is more refineries and there would be no need to import oil.

Bill
 

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VERY cold temperatures??? No regular sunshine - especially winter when we have nuclear grey days? 4-wheel drive to get in and out of snow? The electric would never work where we live. Disposal of batteries another issue. Charging stations are far and few between up here. As dad said...."that is why we do not all drive black Fords". Choice...Freedom to choose...
Besides the excellent points @HitchHiker71 made, I don't think you understand the use models of EVs very well.

First off, the vast majority of people who own EVs charge at home, so there is much less reliance on EV charging stations than you think. Second, it looks like the EV charging stations in your neck of the woods are not "far and few between" -- just look at this map that took all of 5 seconds to bring up:

1738187837922.png


I'm all for freedom of choice as well for all things in our lives, but I can't stand people who spread misinformation based on fear, politics, ignorance, etc. Put out the FACTS and let people decide for themselves.

Kurt
 

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What you are missing is the "tariffs" that mean oil really isn't in as open a market as you might think.

Oil procured from the USA is more than the USA refineries can handle because of environmental concerns making it impossible for old refineries to continue and new refineries to be built. The USA produces enough oil to be oil dependent but because of the lack of refineries has to about export about 40% of the oil produced . Then the USA has to import oil and refined oil products because of the lack of refineries in the USA. #46 created a war on oil in the USA ,but oddly no where else, which costed the USA billions.

No, the companies don't "effectively sell oil to the highest bidder" because the USA is charged a higher tariff to export its oil than to import it. This is ridiculous as all the USA needs is more refineries and there would be no need to import oil.

Bill

US is the largest exporter of refined petroleum products in the world

Because of shipping costs, variations in composition of the crude oil pumped, and other factors, oil and refined products are traded among all of the countries of the world

Sometimes it is cheaper to import diesel fuel into the east coast than ship it from Texas

Because somebody makes is sound simple and easily solved, doesn't make it true

Especially if the somebody has bankrupted every company he ever ran

 

easyrider

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US is the largest exporter of refined petroleum products in the world

Because of shipping costs, variations in composition of the crude oil pumped, and other factors, oil and refined products are traded among all of the countries of the world

Sometimes it is cheaper to import diesel fuel into the east coast than ship it from Texas

Because somebody makes is sound simple and easily solved, doesn't make it true

Especially if the somebody has bankrupted every company he ever ran


Would you agree that if the USA had enough refineries to process all of the oil produced in the USA ,the cost of fuel would decrease substantially and the USA would be the largest exporter of refined oil products ? About 40% of the crude oil produced in the USA is exported. Why isn't this refined ? It's because there aren't enough refineries.

Bill
 
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Would you agree that if the USA had enough refineries to process all of the oil produced in the USA ,the cost of fuel would decrease substantially and the USA would be the largest exporter of refined oil products ? About 40% of the crude oil produced in the USA is exported. Why isn't this refined ? It's because there aren't enough refineries.

Bill
The facts say we can refine about 18.5 MBPD

The US is pumping about 13MBPD

So we can refine more than we produce

No company will produce so much oil it becomes unprofitable

No company will refine so much product it becomes unprofitable

Nation States will

Saudi Arabia drove the price of oil and gas below zero at the wholesale level for a short period of time during the pandemic

It forced producers into Bankruptcy and forced production to slow for a period of time

I did well trading oil during the recovery phase of oil production using @CL futures contracts
 

easyrider

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The facts say we can refine about 18.5 MBPD

The US is pumping about 13MBPD

So we can refine more than we produce

No company will produce so much oil it becomes unprofitable

No company will refine so much product it becomes unprofitable

Nation States will

Saudi Arabia drove the price of oil and gas below zero at the wholesale level for a short period of time during the pandemic

It forced producers into Bankruptcy and forced production to slow for a period of time

I did well trading oil during the recovery phase of oil production using @CL futures contracts

The USA's refineries are set up to refine a heavy crude oil. North America is full of light crude oil. We import heavy crude oil and export light crude oil instead of building a light crude oil refinery. This has never made any sense to me.

Bill
 

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I don't mean to hijack the thread
If you want an overview of the oil industry and stay up to date on current events in the petroleum markets
This is a great source
Generally the site provides a factual summation of events in the world of petroleum and its refined byproducts


If you want the latest in the energy world
Try "Landman" on CBS/Paramount Plus
A look at the oil patches of Texas with a splash of sex, drugs, country music
Features Billy Bob Thornton preaching about the glory of the oil industry
Written and produced by Taylor Sheridan of Yellowstone, 1883, 1923, et al fame
Today's world with no EV's within a hundred miles
 

easyrider

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Try "Landman" on CBS/Paramount Plus

We started watching this and it's really hard to stop. That part of Texas looks flat as a pancake.

Getting back to the ev lies there are plenty. The one thing that will kill ev's is not many want to learn ev's the hard way.

Bill
 

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One More Time
EV's are set up for commutes in major urban areas
It is their primary market
Charge at home is their primary recharging method
The high-end EV Lucids, Porsches, MB, Audi's, Lexus are driven by people that have the money to spend on transportation and look cool while doing it

Not designed for Rural America
If you don't live in a major urban market
You have no idea of their utility as transport
 

easyrider

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EV's are set up for commutes in major urban areas
It is their primary market

Mostly in the Goldilocks zones where it isn't too hot, too cold, but just right. There really isn't a cool looking EV, imo. Maybe the Lightning. I really haven't seen too many in real life. We live in a SUV and Truck dominate area. Lots of Toyotas and Hondas too.

Tesla stock is heading down. It's probably because everyone likes these ev's so much, lol.


Bill
 

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Stock closed at 405.25 at 8:00 EST
The end of after hours trading
Up $16.15 from the 4:00 EST regular market close

Missing deliveries for a quarter does not mean you sold less cars than a year ago
Just means you missed the estimate of what you were going to deliver
 

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Mostly in the Goldilocks zones where it isn't too hot, too cold, but just right. There really isn't a cool looking EV, imo. Maybe the Lightning. I really haven't seen too many in real life. We live in a SUV and Truck dominate area. Lots of Toyotas and Hondas too.
It's been under 30 degrees for the past two weeks where I live. Our Tesla works just fine and my wife daily drives it back and forth to work. It's automagically preconditioned, i.e. heated and toasty warm with a warm battery when she goes to work and when she leaves from work - all scheduled via the app - once and done. No issues with range or anything else. The 8-way heat pump in Tesla vehicles, that no one else has been able to replicate, is an amazing piece of tech. One of many. You likely live in a rural area best guess, and are making judgments and assumptions based on your own lived experience, which I can understand, but the fact remains that 80% of all humans live in urban areas here in the US, so you are an edge case in reality.

The stock actually closed yesterday at $390 yesterday after a temporary downswing and is up after hours to $405. Tesla stock is volatile but overall will become one of the most valuable companies in the world by 2030. There are many critics of Tesla online - most of them have lost billions over the years shorting the stock and aren’t around any more.

Meanwhile in the real world Tesla continues to outperform for the most part. Autonomous driving by year end, ride sharing with Cybercab starts in June in Austin and then spreads to other cities. New cheaper models incoming H1 2025, Model Y newly refreshed and for sale already in all markets. Model Y was, yet again, the best selling car in the world in 2024 - after becoming the best selling car in the world in 2023. Optimus robots being deployed in Tesla factories already and ramping in H2 2025, and going to mass market in H2 2026. Tesla Semi factory completion in H2 2025 and production ramp in H1 2026 to 50-100k units per year (with autonomous driving). Commercial energy (megapacks) up over 100% with revenues up over 67% (over $10bb) in 2024 - with two new megapack plants coming online now - last year Tesla deployed almost 32Gwh of megapacks - next year this will double or triple - meaning revnues will double or triple in one year - going from over $10bb to $20-30bb. Yeah, Tesla isn’t doing well at all LOL. You dinosaurs that are so out of touch it’s hilarious.

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HitchHiker71

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One More Time
EV's are set up for commutes in major urban areas
It is their primary market
Charge at home is their primary recharging method
The high-end EV Lucids, Porsches, MB, Audi's, Lexus are driven by people that have the money to spend on transportation and look cool while doing it

Not designed for Rural America
If you don't live in a major urban market
You have no idea of their utility as transport

We live in suburbia and we love our Tesla. It now drives itself 98% of the time better than a human does - never gets tired - never gets distracted. Seriously - if you haven’t experienced FSD lately - go try it - you will be shocked how good it is.

If you can charge at home it doesn’t really matter where you live. We see Tesla vehicles all around us in suburbia. Granted, not as much in rural areas - but even there more Tesla vehicles and other EVs are popping up. EV marketshare will continue to increase, regardless of government incentives. Because they are better than ICE vehicles in most respects. When Tesla releases their new under $30k model in a few months - it will sell like hotcakes - just like the MY already does.


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jp10558

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We live in suburbia and we love our Tesla. It now drives itself 98% of the time better than a human does - never gets tired - never gets distracted. Seriously - if you haven’t experienced FSD lately - go try it - you will be shocked how good it is.

If you can charge at home it doesn’t really matter where you live. We see Tesla vehicles all around us in suburbia. Granted, not as much in rural areas - but even there more Tesla vehicles and other EVs are popping up. EV marketshare will continue to increase, regardless of government incentives. Because they are better than ICE vehicles in most respects. When Tesla releases their new under $30k model in a few months - it will sell like hotcakes - just like the MY already does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My only real problem with Tesla is my problem with Apple. They have this one vision of what a device should look like and because of marketing it takes forever for anyone else to say, maybe there's a market that wants a different sort of design. So I got smartphones with no option for a physical keyboard (I miss my old Motorola slide out keyboard from a decade or so ago). Touchscreens can be great, but just as often are infuriating - the amount of times you can't just hold onto it without accidentally changing something is a real pain. I need somewhere for one hand to hold the tablet without touching the touchscreen, ideally on all 4 sides. If I wanted to set my tablet on a table and tap at it, I'd use my laptop or a real computer.

Same with the cars now - everyone thinks a huge touchscreen and nothing else is best. NO - I don't want the car to be unable to be operated partially by feel so I can keep my eyes on the road. I also don't want one somewhat fragile screen to be all that lets my car operate that almost certainly costs thousands of dollars to replace. If I bang one dial too hard, I can live without that dial, I can likely replace the plastic over for a hundred or two including labor, but even more important I can change the temp or the radio or the volume without looking away from the road.

I want FSD, but I want it to be legally recognized that the vendor is now liable for crashes cause *I'm not driving*. Till then, I won't "trust it" to let me take my eyes off the road - cause the manufacturer tells me not to. So I still need heater and radio etc controls that I can use by feel.

If someone made something like a Honda Pilot Trailsport that was an EV and could charge up on my road trips in 10 minutes or so, and cost the same or less than the gas vehicle - it'll become top on my list in 5-10 years cause I don't love dealing with gas, oil changes, etc. Wasn't there in 2024 but we'll see where we get to. Though maybe in 10 years I won't be driving to timeshares all the time anymore who knows.
 

easyrider

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You dinosaurs that are so out of touch it’s hilarious.

Maybe but probably not. A Tesla is probably as good as any car for light use but many people need an SUV or truck. Tesla does have brand loyalty but considering that most Tesla owners have installed an at home charger it's more like they are stuck with Tesla because they went all in on the accessories.

Tesla owners are a certain type of person. They have a home that allows them to charge at home. They have the resources to buy a new Tesla before the warranty expires . Tesla is not a car that the majority of North Americans can afford . Actually, most North American can't afford a new any brand and even when they can afford it many will buy used which is my category. When buying used cars I look for reliability and an used EV of any kind isn't what I consider reliable.

Bill
 

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My only real problem with Tesla is my problem with Apple. They have this one vision of what a device should look like and because of marketing it takes forever for anyone else to say, maybe there's a market that wants a different sort of design. So I got smartphones with no option for a physical keyboard (I miss my old Motorola slide out keyboard from a decade or so ago). Touchscreens can be great, but just as often are infuriating - the amount of times you can't just hold onto it without accidentally changing something is a real pain. I need somewhere for one hand to hold the tablet without touching the touchscreen, ideally on all 4 sides. If I wanted to set my tablet on a table and tap at it, I'd use my laptop or a real computer.
Tesla is in negotiations to license FSD with several major legacy automakers. So the reality is that, over the next 5-10 years - almost every automaker will start using FSD - because no one else is remotely close to autonomous driving. This will go the same way NACS/SC access went - Ford signed first - then all the other dominos fell - and almost every other legacy automaker, as well as EV only automakers like Lucid and Rivian, have switched or are switching to NACS connectors - and can now use the Tesla SC network. FSD will go down this same route. Once autonomous driving comes to market starting later this year and on into 2026 - any automaker who doesn't go down this path - will be dead. Game over, dead man walking. Just a matter of how long they can survive at that point. This is a sea change - much like going from horses to cars - when the FSD tech can drive 20 times safer than any human - it'll become mandatory eventually - humans will no longer drive. Yes, I realize this sounds like pie in the sky - but it's closer than almost anyone realizes, and once it goes mainstream - game over.

For example, every Tesla drives itself off the factory floor after being assembled - no human in the vehicle - as soon as its "born" it self-drives to the parking lot for shipping to sales centers. This is happening every day, all day, today:


So, once other legacy manufacturers start licensing FSD - you'll be able to buy an autonomous vehicle from whomever you want - using whatever interior design you prefer - and it'll simply use Tesla tech for autonomous driving (including the 8-9 fully integrated cameras that FSD requires to be installed on the vehicle).
Same with the cars now - everyone thinks a huge touchscreen and nothing else is best. NO - I don't want the car to be unable to be operated partially by feel so I can keep my eyes on the road. I also don't want one somewhat fragile screen to be all that lets my car operate that almost certainly costs thousands of dollars to replace. If I bang one dial too hard, I can live without that dial, I can likely replace the plastic over for a hundred or two including labor, but even more important I can change the temp or the radio or the volume without looking away from the road.
It's not a matter of everyone thinks. For any SDV - in order to make everything OTA software upgradable - this is the best approach. Everything, and I mean everything, is voice controlled - you don't have to use the screen at all to do anything in the vehicle. Want to change the temperature, hit the voice button on the steering wheel and tell it what you want to change. Want to change the music, or switch to another media, whatever you can think of really, just use your voice. You literally never have to take your eyes off the road - and if the car is driving itself via FSD - there's no real risk in doing so anyways if you want to use the screen. You can also configure "buttons" on the screen as needed, or you can purchase third party physical buttons - often called the S3XY buttons - that are fully configurable and can do whatever you want them to do. You can also configure the buttons/scroll wheels on the steering wheel to do whatever you want them to do for often used features - want a scroll wheel to move the temp up or down? Change it to do so, want that scroll wheel to control wipers? Change it to do so. It's all configurable however the owner wants based upon their personal preferences.
I want FSD, but I want it to be legally recognized that the vendor is now liable for crashes cause *I'm not driving*. Till then, I won't "trust it" to let me take my eyes off the road - cause the manufacturer tells me not to. So I still need heater and radio etc controls that I can use by feel.
Voice control is all you need. Physical controls are no longer necessary. I get what you are saying, but it's old thinking using old tech. Sometimes change is a good thing.
If someone made something like a Honda Pilot Trailsport that was an EV and could charge up on my road trips in 10 minutes or so, and cost the same or less than the gas vehicle - it'll become top on my list in 5-10 years cause I don't love dealing with gas, oil changes, etc. Wasn't there in 2024 but we'll see where we get to. Though maybe in 10 years I won't be driving to timeshares all the time anymore who knows.
Rivian's R2 will hit markets in 2026 at the same price point as the Honda Pilot. GM already has the EV Trailblazer and Equinox are already available in this segment as well, along with the VW ID4, Volvo, Polestar, and others. In 10 years cars will drive themselves - so you won't be driving anywhere unless you want to drive manually for whatever reason. This change is coming much faster than people think, and it's a sea change moment for all vehicles.
 

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My only real problem with Tesla is my problem with Apple. They have this one vision of what a device should look like and because of marketing it takes forever for anyone else to say, maybe there's a market that wants a different sort of design. So I got smartphones with no option for a physical keyboard (I miss my old Motorola slide out keyboard from a decade or so ago). Touchscreens can be great, but just as often are infuriating - the amount of times you can't just hold onto it without accidentally changing something is a real pain. I need somewhere for one hand to hold the tablet without touching the touchscreen, ideally on all 4 sides. If I wanted to set my tablet on a table and tap at it, I'd use my laptop or a real computer.

Same with the cars now - everyone thinks a huge touchscreen and nothing else is best. NO - I don't want the car to be unable to be operated partially by feel so I can keep my eyes on the road. I also don't want one somewhat fragile screen to be all that lets my car operate that almost certainly costs thousands of dollars to replace. If I bang one dial too hard, I can live without that dial, I can likely replace the plastic over for a hundred or two including labor, but even more important I can change the temp or the radio or the volume without looking away from the road.

I want FSD, but I want it to be legally recognized that the vendor is now liable for crashes cause *I'm not driving*. Till then, I won't "trust it" to let me take my eyes off the road - cause the manufacturer tells me not to. So I still need heater and radio etc controls that I can use by feel.

If someone made something like a Honda Pilot Trailsport that was an EV and could charge up on my road trips in 10 minutes or so, and cost the same or less than the gas vehicle - it'll become top on my list in 5-10 years cause I don't love dealing with gas, oil changes, etc. Wasn't there in 2024 but we'll see where we get to. Though maybe in 10 years I won't be driving to timeshares all the time anymore who knows.
You are a candidate for the new "Scout" line of EV's
I have not done a deep dive into the models
But the buzz is it does not feel like a techno EV
 

HitchHiker71

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Maybe but probably not. A Tesla is probably as good as any car for light use but many people need an SUV or truck. Tesla does have brand loyalty but considering that most Tesla owners have installed an at home charger it's more like they are stuck with Tesla because they went all in on the accessories.
Dinosaur response. Every manufacturer is moving to NACS - the connector that Tesla pioneered - here in the US at least. So anyone who has a Tesla Wall Connector is just fine, and it also ships with a J1772 connector - which is what every other EV uses - so nope - your theory is wrong. Tesla also sells a universal wall connector - that many people buy - that uses the J1772 connector natively - if that's the route someone wants to go. Given every manufacturer is switching to NACS native - I don't see any reason to buy a non-NACS home charger unless you own an EV that has an existing J1772 connector - but even then - you can simply use the adapter - and you will be futureproof since the future is 100% NACS connector for all US EVs.
Tesla owners are a certain type of person. They have a home that allows them to charge at home. They have the resources to buy a new Tesla before the warranty expires . Tesla is not a car that the majority of North Americans can afford . Actually, most North American can't afford a new any brand and even when they can afford it many will buy used which is my category. When buying used cars I look for reliability and an used EV of any kind isn't what I consider reliable.

Bill
So when Tesla releases a new vehicle in two months with a MSRP under 30k, what are you going to say then? That's almost $20k less expensive than the average new vehicle MSRP here in the US - which sits at $48-49k right now. That's plenty affordable by any measure. Battery packs are actually showing better longevity in the real world according to studies done the past two years - many are lasting 300-500k miles before requiring replacement - meanwhile the average ICE vehicle - according to statistics - only lasts 140-150k miles before people trade-up. EVs already are superior for 80% of the population, and will rapidly become the same for the remaining 20% over the next 3-5 years as models improve and charging infrastructure improves. I will bet dollars to donuts the by 2030 well over 50% of new car sales will be BEVs.
 
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