You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[Brett]

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https://apnews.com/article/china-autos-evs-exports-3f5860634a1d146446dd0dd9e78c2abb





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[HitchHiker71]

Layoffs in Sweden as Volvo faces lack of demand for electric vehicles

Volvo Cars’ battery manufacturer Novo Energy has announced layoffs in Gothenburg, making it yet another Swedish company in the sector to scale back operations, reports Salon24. According to a statement from Novo Energy, 30% of the staff will have to say goodbye to their jobs at the company...

rmx.news

As is always the case, context is king. Here's predicted EV adoption rates in Sweden from back in 2018:

In 2024 BEV/PHEV adoption in Sweden topped 60% - 62.8% to be exact - so it actually exceeded the predicted rates in the chart above: https://cleantechnica.com/2025/01/05/evs-take-62-8-share-in-sweden-2024-a-year-to-forget/

When BEVs already have majority market penetration as is the case here, we can and should expect slower adoption rates as market saturation takes hold. Here's the best selling BEV models in Sweden for December 2024 - which is a microcosm of overall best selling models for all of 2024 - notice who is in the top spot with a very comfortable margin (wonder why that is? SDV vs old ICE-based designs?):

For 2024 as a whole:

 

[easyrider]

Considering that gas prices 25 years ago was about $2 a gallon and today at our local pump about $2.60, along with the expectation of even lower gas prices these next few years, why would anyone consider an ev ?

Bill

 

[DrQ]

why would anyone consider an ev ?

If you commute in stop/go driving for any distance, BEV excels in that environment. This type of driving kills ICE vehicles. WFH is coming to an end.

 

[easyrider]

W

If you commute in stop/go driving for any distance, BEV excels in that environment. This type of driving kills ICE vehicles. WFH is coming to an end.

What's whf ?

Say what you will about the ev revolution but that's going to be about it. Words.

If gas prices continue on a downward trajectory , the biggest reason anyone buys these are gone.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

What's whf ?

I don't know what "whf" means but WFH is accepted as Work from Home.

If gas prices continue on a downward trajectory , the biggest reason anyone buys these are gone.

That was NOT the determining factor in my decision to buy a BEV. It was maintenance and wear and tear. I was driving 60 miles a day to work and back and this was tearing up my ICE road trip car. I bought a small, simple BEV for commuting and around the town driving.

Gasoline price never factored into it. There were 2 times in 30 some years where we had gas shortages due to refinery shutdowns due to hurricanes where a BEV would have been nice, but not the reason I wanted one. Stop/go driving in Texas heat tears up engines.

 

[Brett]

Considering that gas prices 25 years ago was about $2 a gallon and today at our local pump about $2.60, along with the expectation of even lower gas prices these next few years, why would anyone consider an ev ?

Bill

with subsidized oil and gasoline prices so low (oil wells are everywhere) why go electric - why .. why ?......................

With our Oldsmobile 88 we're so much smarter than the Asians Bill !!

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https://apnews.com/article/china-autos-evs-exports-3f5860634a1d146446dd0dd9e78c2abb

 

[easyrider]

with subsidized oil and gasoline prices so low (oil wells are everywhere) why go electric - why .. why ?......................

With our Oldsmobile 88 we're so much smarter than the Asians Bill !!

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View attachment 104988

https://apnews.com/article/china-autos-evs-exports-3f5860634a1d146446dd0dd9e78c2abb

Ev's are going to bankrupt the PRC because the ev is inferior to ice in most applications.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

And we're still back in 2020.

 

[emeryjre]

Ev's are going to bankrupt the PRC because the ev is inferior to ice in most applications.

Bill

EV’s are best in crowded urban situations with dirty air from tailpipe emissions

China has multiple cities with this condition

They are working to reduce emissions by building multiple nuclear reactors to power their EV sales

If a person has never experienced 6 lanes of bumper to bumper traffic crawling along at 5 MPH on the daily commute, the whole concept is lost

 

[easyrider]

EV’s are best in crowded urban situations with dirty air from tailpipe emissions

China has multiple cities with this condition

They are working to reduce emissions by building multiple nuclear reactors to power their EV sales

If a person has never experienced 6 lanes of bumper to bumper traffic crawling along at 5 MPH on the daily commute, the whole concept is lost

In the past I agree that tail pipe emissions were a problem in the USA but not so much of s problem today.

I've been in plenty of traffic on I 5 and tail pipe emissions from cars aren't really a problem.

In third world countries , the cars while better for the most part now than in the past, don't meet North American standards. The cheap 2 stroke gas and diesel engines used in China are a real poluter .

China is going bankrupt partly because of it's attempt at ev dominance. Their government loses money on every ev and probably half of the ev end up unsold and disposed of.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

And we're still back in 2020.

How so ?

Bill

 

[davidvel]

In the past I agree that tail pipe emissions were a problem in the USA but not so much of s problem today.

I've been in plenty of traffic on I 5 and tail pipe emissions from cars aren't really a problem.

In third world countries , the cars while better for the most part now than in the past, don't meet North American standards. The cheap 2 stroke gas and diesel engines used in China are a real poluter .

China is going bankrupt partly because of it's attempt at ev dominance. Their government loses money on every ev and probably half of the ev end up unsold and disposed of.

Bill

China uses 2 stroke engines in cars? Source/cite? I am sure you have one.

 

[emeryjre]

In the past I agree that tail pipe emissions were a problem in the USA but not so much of s problem today.

I've been in plenty of traffic on I 5 and tail pipe emissions from cars aren't really a problem.

In third world countries , the cars while better for the most part now than in the past, don't meet North American standards. The cheap 2 stroke gas and diesel engines used in China are a real poluter .

China is going bankrupt partly because of it's attempt at ev dominance. Their government loses money on every ev and probably half of the ev end up unsold and disposed of.

Bill

Air quality rankings for LA are still not good
The report is from 2019-2020 but recent studies show it only marginally better due to auto exhaust
The recent reports are even worse because of smoke from fires

What is the air quality in Los Angeles?​

Los Angeles air quality averages a US AQI or air quality index rating of “moderate.” Monthly averages in 2019 varied from AQI 32 (“good”) in February to AQI 64 (“moderate”) in November. Despite seemingly optimistic ratings, Los Angeles’s air pollution is among the worst in the United States, both for PM2.5 and ozone.


PM2.5 is airborne particulate matter measuring up to 2.5 microns in size. It is widely regarded as one of the most harmful pollutants to human health for its prevalence at dangerous levels. Exposure to PM2.5 has been linked to health effects such as heart disease, respiratory illness, and premature death.


For PM2.5, the greater Los Angeles county contains 9 of the 15 most polluted cities in the United States, according to the 2019 World Air Quality Report. In this same report, the city of Los Angeles ranked 82nd in the US (out of 1,517 included cities). Its annual average, however, differed by only 4 micrograms from the number one most polluted city in the U.S.: Portola, California.


According to the 2019 State of the Air report, which compared data across 229 metropolitan areas, Los Angeles has the worst ozone air pollution in the United States. Ozone is a gas pollutant formed when sunlight reacts with nitrogen oxides and organic substances. Vehicle exhaust contains both the nitrogen oxides and reactive organic substances needed to form ozone, so traffic is frequently identified as a leading source. Like PM2.5, ozone can cause health effects ranging from respiratory infections and inflammation to premature death.


Together, PM2.5 and ozone form the smog that Los Angeles is often known for. The summer months of June, July, and August tend to be more polluted than other months for both PM2.5 and ozone. This is because of drier conditions, less rainfall, higher temperatures, and a higher frequency of wind-blown dust and wildfires fanned by the Santa Ana winds.

 

[easyrider]

China uses 2 stroke engines in cars? Source/cite? I am sure you have one.

You can google it. While China has enacted regulations on emissions the emissions rules are for certain areas of China and not so much all of China.

India uses two stroke engines as well.

Two stroke engines are being phased out in the USA . I bought my first lithium chainsaw and it's OK for homeowner use but I doubt it could keep up with my big Stihl.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Air quality rankings for LA are still not good
The report is from 2019-2020 but recent studies show it only marginally better due to auto exhaust
The recent reports are even worse because of smoke from fires

What is the air quality in Los Angeles?​

Los Angeles air quality averages a US AQI or air quality index rating of “moderate.” Monthly averages in 2019 varied from AQI 32 (“good”) in February to AQI 64 (“moderate”) in November. Despite seemingly optimistic ratings, Los Angeles’s air pollution is among the worst in the United States, both for PM2.5 and ozone.


PM2.5 is airborne particulate matter measuring up to 2.5 microns in size. It is widely regarded as one of the most harmful pollutants to human health for its prevalence at dangerous levels. Exposure to PM2.5 has been linked to health effects such as heart disease, respiratory illness, and premature death.


For PM2.5, the greater Los Angeles county contains 9 of the 15 most polluted cities in the United States, according to the 2019 World Air Quality Report. In this same report, the city of Los Angeles ranked 82nd in the US (out of 1,517 included cities). Its annual average, however, differed by only 4 micrograms from the number one most polluted city in the U.S.: Portola, California.


According to the 2019 State of the Air report, which compared data across 229 metropolitan areas, Los Angeles has the worst ozone air pollution in the United States. Ozone is a gas pollutant formed when sunlight reacts with nitrogen oxides and organic substances. Vehicle exhaust contains both the nitrogen oxides and reactive organic substances needed to form ozone, so traffic is frequently identified as a leading source. Like PM2.5, ozone can cause health effects ranging from respiratory infections and inflammation to premature death.


Together, PM2.5 and ozone form the smog that Los Angeles is often known for. The summer months of June, July, and August tend to be more polluted than other months for both PM2.5 and ozone. This is because of drier conditions, less rainfall, higher temperatures, and a higher frequency of wind-blown dust and wildfires fanned by the Santa Ana winds.

The truth is all of the things California did regarding emissions is wiped out with the emissions of one large forest fire.

Where California messed up is allowing the forest to go natural instead of protecting it from fire with interventions such as logging , grazing and other human activities. IMO

Bill

 

[davidvel]

You can google it. While China has enacted regulations on emissions the emissions rules are for certain areas of China and not so much all of China.

India uses two stroke engines as well.

Two stroke engines are being phased out in the USA . I bought my first lithium chainsaw and it's OK for homeowner use but I doubt it could keep up with my big Stihl.

Bill

I did Google said that China does not make ² stroke auto engines.

 

[easyrider]

Maybe your spelling is off. The 2 stroke diesel engine is used in rural China because it has the power to weight ratio needed and are very good for fuel savings.

Bill

China 2 Stroke Diesel Engine, 2 Stroke Diesel Engine Wholesale, Manufacturers, Price | Made-in-China.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

W

What's whf ?

Say what you will about the ev revolution but that's going to be about it. Words.

If gas prices continue on a downward trajectory , the biggest reason anyone buys these are gone.

Bill

Contrary to the current rhetoric about cutting energy prices by 50%, it's never going to happen. The reasoning is simple. WTI crude prices have a floor of about $50-60/barrel. If prices fall under that, it costs too much to pull the oil out of the ground and refine it, and exploration basically grinds to a halt as a result. Anyone in the oil business knows that the current sweet spot for spot pricing per barrel for WTI crude is between $65-85/barrel - it's currently hovering around $75/barrel. Anyone who thinks oil companies are going to spend tens of billions on new exploration with oil per barrel at 50% of current prices, please give me some of what you're smoking. That would put WTI crude price per barrel at around $32.50-42.50 per barrel - they lose money at this low price per barrel or at most barely break even - we know this because we saw this when oil went to zero during the early part of the pandemic and we saw where the real pricing floors were for oil companies to make any money. Exploration prices increase with inflation mind you - and inflation is accelerating - PPI was still up 3.3% YoY last month. That's far from the 2% floor the Fed wants - and leading indicators show it will start rising again - not falling. Lots of stuff is said during election years, but anyone who thinks energy pricing is going to fall significantly, doesn't have logic and reality on their side to put it bluntly. Go ask anyone in the oil business about pricing with all of this in mind.

Let's also clearly state that oil and gas pricing is set by the global marketplace, and not anywhere else, unless and until we embrace government (state) run oil companies (like some countries in the Middle east that then provide heavily subsidized cheap gas for local citizenry) - which I don't see happening here in the US. If the US increases supply, other suppliers (OPEC anyone?) will cut supply to compensate and keep oil prices at a level that facilitates exploration and profits. With EVs taking a larger percentage of overall transportation fleet marketshare, and therefore demand for oil and gas subsiding - we saw peak consumer demand in 2018 - it's gone down every year since. It's going to keep going down, regardless of the naysayers that still think BEVs are somehow inferior due to internet talking points.

 

[Brett]

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[emeryjre]

The truth is all of the things California did regarding emissions is wiped out with the emissions of one large forest fire.

Where California messed up is allowing the forest to go natural instead of protecting it from fire with interventions such as logging , grazing and or human activities. IMO

Bill

There are several elements of air quality

The component which is highlighted in Bold in my post relates to Ozone

Ozone levels are related to tailpipe emissions

The components of smoke are different elements of Air Quality

 

[davidvel]

Maybe your spelling is off. The 2 stroke diesel engine is used in rural China because it has the power to weight ratio needed and are very good for fuel savings.

Bill

China 2 Stroke Diesel Engine, 2 Stroke Diesel Engine Wholesale, Manufacturers, Price | Made-in-China.com

I saw a bunch of engines, but no cars with 2 stroke engines. If you are saying that a sparsely used vehicle in a rural area (2 stroke car, which you have not shown exists) is pertinent to the discussion in this thread, you are again cherry picking irrelevant things to try to bloster your unsupported opinions. As usual.

 

[Rjbeach2003]

Considering that gas prices 25 years ago was about $2 a gallon and today at our local pump about $2.60, along with the expectation of even lower gas prices these next few years, why would anyone consider an ev ?

Bill Where do you live? In Oregon in 1999 average gas was $1.17 and average in 2023 was $4.23. so we have had a 400% increase and you have had a 30% increase. Facts matter. Besides gas isn't the only factor in buying an EV. But I just wanted to enlighten you. Gas is lower today where I live in Oregon than that average, but then what I found was an average. Oh I went back as I saw that you must live in the Tri Cities or Walla Walla. I just checked an Costco gas in Kennewick today is $3.39.

 

[easyrider]

I saw a bunch of engines, but no cars with 2 stroke engines. If you are saying that a sparsely used vehicle in a rural area (2 stroke car, which you have not shown exists) is pertinent to the discussion in this thread, you are again cherry picking irrelevant things to try to bloster your unsupported opinions. As usual.

Yes, I'm saying most of China is rural and the use of 2 stroke diesel and gas engines is common in these areas. Small trucks, tuk tuk, tractors are just a few of these types of vehicles.

If I give a care, when I return to home I might link it for you. Currently I only have my phone so you are on your own.

Another thing you should be aware of Dave is my unsupported opinions are better than most, lol.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

I haven't been home for a month but when we left gas was $2.63 at Sinclair. Using the Sinclair app brings the price down 15 cents so about $2.48 a gallon.

Even if gas was $4 a gallon today, if you add inflation into the price , it would be a bargain compared to 20 years ago , because the dollar value was worth about $1.80 compared to today.

Bill