You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[HitchHiker71]

Come on man. You know no one is going to buy an out of regular warranty Tesla, meaning after year four, most every problem will become a liability. It has more to do with no one works on Tesla in most markets and the high costs of repairs. The common problems are steering / suspension, electrical components including motors and batteries, all of which are huge repair bills.

A Toyota bev is different in that many dealers do work on these. Even so, Toyota hybrids outsell Toyota bev's. I would consider a Toyota Hybrid to be a decent car at 10 years. I can't say the same for Tesla.

Bill

The only warranty that matters for a BEV is the high voltage system warranty - which covers the battery pack itself and the high voltage systems that support the battery pack usage - which is a legally required minimum of 8yr/100k and most manufacturers - including Tesla - provide even more generous HV system warranties - from a minimum of 8yr/120k to a maximum of 8yr/150k at present. Given the relative simplicity of BEVs compared to ICE vehicles (a tenth of the moving parts), your analysis is at least somewhat faulty with regard to the bumper to bumper warranty provided. While battery packs and electric motors can fail - just like ICEs fail - it is relatively rare and the packs and motors are designed to outlive the vehicle itself. The standard 4yr/50k b2b vehicle warranty generally isn’t important to most BEV buyers - but can be extended by two years easily if desired - it’s a simple purchase right in the app.

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[HitchHiker71]

It isn't going to work very well for trips with high directional splits. How many of those self driving cars that are dropping you off at a sporting event are going to pickup rides after you get out of the car?

Given the system managing the rideshare network and routing will be an end to end AI driven system - it will be more efficient than any human system. The types of problems you’re addressing will be solved automatically by the system in other words.


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[emeryjre]

Good article on the cost of recharging an EV
The headline is deceiving
The article goes into detail about the cost of charging under various situations

I charged a Kia EV9 for the first time and it was more expensive than filling up my gas-powered car

The savings are actually elsewhere

www.tomsguide.com

 

[HitchHiker71]

Good article on the cost of recharging an EV
The headline is deceiving
The article goes into detail about the cost of charging under various situations

I charged a Kia EV9 for the first time and it was more expensive than filling up my gas-powered car

The savings are actually elsewhere

www.tomsguide.com

We recently took a 550-600 mile each way trip to Myrtle Beach area for a two week vacation (the route we take down is closer to 600 miles but is more scenic and we break it up over two days time). We took our 2023 Tesla MY on the trip. Here's the the charging stops on our way home - driving a total of nine hours all in one day. 58 minutes total charge time - three stops. Just over nine hours drive time home, including charging stop times. Best we've ever done in our truck non-stop was eight hours - and that was many years ago when we could tolerate a non-stop trip for eight hours - which is no longer the case at our age now as we need to stop for bathroom breaks and eats. 1st charge stop in Smithfield, NC as at a Sheetz. We took a bathroom break and grabbed breakfast sandwiches and coffees and we were back on the road in 22 minutes. Second stop was at a larger gas station and a mart (don't recall the brand), along with a Starbucks and a Subway, we grabbed Subway sandwiches to share and some chips and drinks, back on the road in 22 minutes. Last stop was at Springfield Mall in VA - used the local Target for a bathroom break and back on the road in 14 minutes. Roughly 550 miles on the route home. Spent a total of $34.82 on public charging. In our truck, which gets about 20mpg if we stay off the go pedal - using midgrade gas (required), we'd have spent about 27.5 gallons * $3.79 per gallon = $104.23 on gas. $34.82 vs $104.23 - using Tesla public chargers - we saved 66.6% on energy costs during transit. Even if we double the mpg to 40mpg and use regular gas - 13.75 gallons * $3.39 = $46.62 on gas. $34.82 vs $46.62. Even if we were to assume using a 40mpg very efficient CUV (the ICE equivalent of our MY) - we still would have saved 25% on energy transit costs using our BEV. We also enjoyed free destination charging at Towers on the Grove for two weeks - meaning we didn't pay one cent to drive all over the Myrtle Beach area thanks to Wyndham providing free destination chargers in their parking garage. Nice perk.

 

[easyrider]

The only warranty that matters for a BEV is the high voltage system warranty - which covers the battery pack itself and the high voltage systems that support the battery pack usage - which is a legally required minimum of 8yr/100k and most manufacturers - including Tesla - provide even more generous HV system warranties - from a minimum of 8yr/120k to a maximum of 8yr/150k at present. Given the relative simplicity of BEVs compared to ICE vehicles (a tenth of the moving parts), your analysis is at least somewhat faulty with regard to the bumper to bumper warranty provided. While battery packs and electric motors can fail - just like ICEs fail - it is relatively rare and the packs and motors are designed to outlive the vehicle itself. The standard 4yr/50k b2b vehicle warranty generally isn’t important to most BEV buyers - but can be extended by two years easily if desired - it’s a simple purchase right in the app.

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Here is a reddit Tesla repair conversation. It is about personal experiences with service. Like any decent product there are both complaints and satisfaction. The repairs seem to be on many smaller items. Out of warranty these small items do have a cost that is often higher than an ice for a similar problem.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/15q4k9n
Many complaints center around the lack of service centers and length of time for repairs. Most businesses that bought Tesla's did so because of incentives, imo. It really didn't work out for many reasons including lack of charging stations and higher costs of ownership. Look a Hertz as an example.

Tesla owners share some of the unexpected headaches of owning the EV

It's not easy being an early adopter, especially with EVs. Over a dozen Tesla owners detailed some of the biggest headaches they've faced switching.

www.businessinsider.com

To me, it is an unreliable product mostly because of the lack of service facilities, higher costs of ownership and lack of charging stations. For some people a Tesla under warranty would work out great because they live near a service facility and they have their own charging station.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Here is a reddit Tesla repair conversation. It is about personal experiences with service. Like any decent product there are both complaints and satisfaction. The repairs seem to be on many smaller items. Out of warranty these small items do have a cost that is often higher than an ice for a similar problem.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/15q4k9n
Many complaints center around the lack of service centers and length of time for repairs. Most businesses that bought Tesla's did so because of incentives, imo. It really didn't work out for many reasons including lack of charging stations and higher costs of ownership. Look a Hertz as an example.

Tesla owners share some of the unexpected headaches of owning the EV

It's not easy being an early adopter, especially with EVs. Over a dozen Tesla owners detailed some of the biggest headaches they've faced switching.

www.businessinsider.com

To me, it is an unreliable product mostly because of the lack of service facilities, higher costs of ownership and lack of charging stations. For some people a Tesla under warranty would work out great because they live near a service facility and they have their own charging station.

Bill

These anecdotal examples are exactly what I can find about traditional car dealership experiences by the hundreds in comparison - so it's really a moot point and many of the issues are remnants of the supply chain issues related to the pandemic especially any stories that people come across over the past 2-3 years. I had to wait months for a part for my truck at my local RAM dealer for example - for my air suspension system - last year due to parts delays. Fortunately the air suspension itself still worked - I just could not adjust the suspension up or down for about six months until the parts were available. Tesla is going through growing pains with it's service centers without a doubt. There's a lawsuit right now about Tesla monopolizing service centers/parts business - which ironically is similar to what happened back 100 years ago when most manufacturers also handled their own parts and service businesses but eventually spun off these businesses and that's what created the independent dealership model we have in place today for the legacy automotive businesses. Will the model change moving forward? Only time will tell of course. BEVs are far more reliable statistically than ICE vehicles by the simple metric that the fewer moving parts a complex vehicle contains - the less likely it is to fail over time. By that metric alone, there is simply no comparison. Most of the warranty issues that Tesla in particular suffers from are quality control related. Tesla is getting better - the new Model 3 is definitely noticeably better in NVH than all prior models. We've owned our MY for over a year now - and outside of a couple of service center visits to iron out a couple of quality control issues when we first took delivery - we've never had any need for additional service visits. This is the story the vast majority of BEV owners have as well. People only go to the internet to complain when something is wrong - they never go to the internet to tell great stories about what's going right in comparison - so it's easy to create a false narrative about products and services being "bad" when using anecdotal examples from online forums. Just look at TUG as a real live example - filled mostly with complaints about timeshare companies and ownerships - yet that doesn't represent the majority of timeshare owners by any measure. Pretty much every online forum suffers from the same bias toward negativity and problems because people search out forums to complain about issues as a general rule.

For our part we have a Tesla service center 20 minutes from our home - and 90-95% of our charging is via our home charger - so we are ideal BEV customers in that respect - and we live in suburbia and the nearest major urban center is Philadelphia about 45 miles from where we live. Tesla also offers mobile service in areas where a service center is not available - provided the work in scope can be done outside of a service center of course - and the vast majority of service work can be done via Tesla mobile services.

Have you ever driven a BEV before? Rented a BEV? Really in earnest gone and experienced what it's like to drive a Tesla or a BEV from another major brand?

 

[dagger1]

Since they are all recyclable and are in point of fact already being recycled by Redwood and Tesla - roughly 95% of the battery pack metals and materials are already being recycled - the answer is definitively that we will run out of oil - which is 0% recyclable - long before we run out of metals and minerals for battery packs.


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Once again, electricity is not produced by oil.

 

[DrQ]

Once again, electricity is not produced by oil.

You say that so many times, you need to put it in your signature.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Once again, electricity is not produced by oil.

Doesn't matter which fossil fuel you pick - oil, gas, coal - the same concept applies - none of it is recyclable once burned for fuel.

 

[dagger1]

Contrary to popular myth - renewable energy production sources just surpassed coal and nuclear energy as a percentage according to the US EIA that tracks generation data:

View attachment 94890

Within the next 10 years - renewables will surpass natural gas and will likely constitute 75% of all US energy production - on up to close to 100% within 20 years best estimate. From an investment perspective, almost every dollar is going toward renewable energy production - particularly solar - since is now cheaper on a per kw basis than any other energy source - commercial solar is in point of fact now less expensive across the board - including production and transmission - than the mere transmission of all other power generation sources - let alone the generation costs. This is why there's almost no investment for production of other energy sources - because they are significantly more expensive to produce and to maintain and transmit. The move toward renewables makes the most financial sense, which is why it is inevitable regardless of the politics and opinions involved.

 

[dagger1]

Doesn't matter which fossil fuel you pick - oil, gas, coal - the same concept applies - none of it is recyclable once burned for fuel.

There are hundreds of years of natural gas and coal reserves…

 

[dagger1]

You say that so many times, you need to put it in your signature.

Good idea. Glad someone is seeing it!

 

[easyrider]

These anecdotal examples are exactly what I can find about traditional car dealership experiences by the hundreds in comparison - so it's really a moot point

I agree that every dealer has complaints, Tesla complaints are mainly due to a lack of service facilities and no third party repair shops. Most brands do have a network of dealers and third party shops that are able to work on almost every vehicle made. Tesla is Tesla proprietary so third part repairs will never exist.

Bill

 

[emeryjre]

People have noticed the Tesla Repair issue

Story has details of the class action law suit against Tesla and Tesla repair monopoly

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[easyrider]

Doesn't matter which fossil fuel you pick - oil, gas, coal - the same concept applies - none of it is recyclable once burned for fuel.

Most of the global electricity is produced by coal , oil and natural gas. Fossil fuels are recycled into carbon 12 when burned the same as any organic matter.

Most people think that ev's would be able to slow climate change because of no emissions of carbon 12 but the reality is it takes quite a bit of carbon 12 emissions to produce an ev and much of the electricity used to charge an ev creates a carbon 12 footprint. Ev's can't fix or slow climate change. EV's do help with air quality.

More carbon 12 is released each year by our homes @ about 5,4 billion tonnes per year, than all of the emissions from vehicles combined at about 3.5 billion tonnes per year. Large amounts of carbon 12 is released each year from road building @ 3500 tonnes per mile of one lane or about 80 million tonnes per year just on new projects alone. Concrete has a very high carbon foot print.

My point is that by reducing one source of carbon 12 release in a few of areas in the world, the worlds carbon foot print will still increase, due to other needs. In other words, I doubt humans can fix anything as complex as the climate by using ev's.

Bill

 

[Superchief]

Doesn't matter which fossil fuel you pick - oil, gas, coal - the same concept applies - none of it is recyclable once burned for fuel.

Wind turbines and solar panels also need to be replaced and aren't renewable. Unfortunately, most are also produced in China.

 

[Superchief]

Contrary to popular myth - renewable energy production sources just surpassed coal and nuclear energy as a percentage according to the US EIA that tracks generation data:

View attachment 94890

Within the next 10 years - renewables will surpass natural gas and will likely constitute 75% of all US energy production - on up to close to 100% within 20 years best estimate. From an investment perspective, almost every dollar is going toward renewable energy production - particularly solar - since is now cheaper on a per kw basis than any other energy source - commercial solar is in point of fact now less expensive across the board - including production and transmission - than the mere transmission of all other power generation sources - let alone the generation costs. This is why there's almost no investment for production of other energy sources - because they are significantly more expensive to produce and to maintain and transmit. The move toward renewables makes the most financial sense, which is why it is inevitable regardless of the politics and opinions involved.

I would expect a fairly large proportion of solar energy will be utilized where it is installed and won't enter the grid. It therefore will be producing electricity but its production isn't measured. How is this accounted for in these generation figures?

 

[Brett]

I would expect a fairly large proportion of solar energy will be utilized where it is installed and won't enter the grid. It therefore will be producing electricity but its production isn't measured. How is this accounted for in these generation figures?

And how are all the utility batteries figured in the generation figures


.

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/batteries/vermonts-biggest-utility-dramatically-expands-home-battery-subsidies

 

[Ken555]

EVs Are Selling Well For Everyone Except Tesla

It seems the EV transition is going just fine — it's only the market leader that's imploding

jalopnik.com

Sales data from April, collected by Automotive News, shows growth in the EV market outpacing that of vehicles as a whole. Electric sales were up 14 percent as a whole, which is a promising number. Yet, when you take Tesla out of the equation, those numbers skyrocket: Non-Tesla EV sales grew a full 69 percent over the same period.

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[joestein]

EVs Are Selling Well For Everyone Except Tesla

It seems the EV transition is going just fine — it's only the market leader that's imploding

jalopnik.com

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In 2023 Tesla increased their car sales by 38%, at the same time losing about 5% of the total market. Let's see how they all do at the end of the year.

Also realize that many other EVs have obscene incentives (other than taxes) as inventories are building up at dealerships. The Ford Mach E which is the top selling EV after Tesla offers 5 years 0% financing plus a ton of other smaller incentives.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I agree that every dealer has complaints, Tesla complaints are mainly due to a lack of service facilities and no third party repair shops. Most brands do have a network of dealers and third party shops that are able to work on almost every vehicle made. Tesla is Tesla proprietary so third part repairs will never exist.

Bill

This isn't really entirely accurate. Tesla, for example, has never done their own body work/repairs - they have certified repair facilities when car accidents require body work repairs - our local Caliber Collision is a certified Tesla body shop for example. Tesla is currently building out a parts manufacturing facility in Buffalo, NY area as well, and internal rumors are that third parties will be able to certify with Tesla and provide repairs using the parts manufactured by Tesla and sold to these third party certified service centers once this model is ready to roll out. Tesla initially built out their own service center network because no one outside of Tesla had any experience working on BEVs at all - so it was necessary by design especially from 2012-2018 timeframe. Only time will tell if this changes moving forward - but Tesla has always outsourced their body work to certified third parties, so the model is already there. Transferring that same model to third party service centers is certainly possible.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wind turbines and solar panels also need to be replaced and aren't renewable. Unfortunately, most are also produced in China.

This isn't entirely accurate either. Solar panels are recyclable. A good friend of mine is a mechanical engineer and does work with a large company that is already recycling solar panels today and are scaling up the tech to mass recycle solar panels. They also recycle PVC/styrofoam on a large scale. My overall point is, these materials can be recycled. Hydrocarbons released into the atmosphere cannot be recycled. Carbon capture tech has failed to scale well to date and is not cost effective - that's why no one is doing it.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Good chart - so roughly 1/3 of all global power generation comes from renewable sources today - and this will likely increase considerably over the next few decades - to the point where 75%-80% of all power production is renewable - along with the required mass energy storage arrays:

 

[HitchHiker71]

I would expect a fairly large proportion of solar energy will be utilized where it is installed and won't enter the grid. It therefore will be producing electricity but its production isn't measured. How is this accounted for in these generation figures?

It's not really - these charts primarily represent grid power generation by utilities - so the reality is that as democratization of energy production becomes more prevalent (such as home solar/geothermal) - the need for grid power becomes less important.

 

[Tia]

I just want the electric power to stay on! It's been off 3 times in the last 3 weeks, last night there was rain/wind but the other 2 times no bad weather. This is unusual for all the years we have lived here..... The first outage was for more then 6 hours starting at dinner time, no information given by Excel as to what the problem was.