Wyndham Privileges: new Wyndham VIP Levels starting late 2020 [Merged]

[Eric B]

Roger that on the 12 months. My thought was that they could have economized on allowing VIPs to see the ARP availability rather than adding another category to reflect the actual reservation eligibility. The limitation does come in for booking, of course, though that's also something they could have erred in implementing.

 

[SNA27]

This is generally only true in the ARP window as BD said.



What CWA owns across the resorts varies widely. I actually maintain a spreadsheet containing exactly what inventory CWA owns that I built based upon multiple versions of the CWA POS published over time. It’s available in one of the FB groups that I’m an admin for where we publish this data for our group members. Here’s an excerpt from the sheet in question showing the exact inventory data for all CWA Florida resorts:

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Could you post the name of the Facebook Group? Is it open to anyone to join?
I am on Facebook but rarely go there. This may give me some reason to see what's going with FB.

 

[Richelle]

I am probably opening up a huge can of worms by posting this, but after some deliberation, I felt it would be unfair to hold this information back because of a few people. Let’s stop the fear mongering please.

I spoke, over email, with Annie Roberts, VP of owner and Club services. I asked about resale points getting VIP benefits, and if that would change with Privileges. Her answer is below. Looks like we are safe from changes for at least another year. Maybe longer. If it ever does become financially feasible and beneficial for them to restrict resale from getting VIP benefits, I’m sure they would do it. However, if it’s not costing them anything, and if they feel it’s beneficial to maintain the status quo, they won’t likely change it anytime soon.



“VIP Discounts with Resale – our Product Development team shared we have talked a lot over the years about restricting usgage of resale contract points for any type of VIP benefits. For the Privileges changes they decided not to do anything this year because it would cost a lot more and increase our timeline.“

 

[paxsarah]

because it would cost a lot more and increase our timeline

This sounds to me like it's on the table in concept, but they've determined the necessary IT updates for it would be too expensive and take too long for this go-round.

 

[Jan M.]

This sounds to me like it's on the table in concept, but they've determined the necessary IT updates for it would be too expensive and take too long for this go-round.

I agree that it certainly sounds like it's been discussed. I've seen people posting that will never happen. If there is one life lesson I've learned it's to never say never.

 

[Richelle]

This sounds to me like it's on the table in concept, but they've determined the necessary IT updates for it would be too expensive and take too long for this go-round.

That is my thinking too.

 

[HitchHiker71]

That is my thinking too.

I think it’s a combination of this plus the fact that it’s not costly enough to Wyndham to do anything about it. The cost of the VIP program is funded primarily by the program fees. If the use of resale points by VIPs were to become so costly that the program fees could no longer cover the associated costs - then I think Wyndham would consider implementing the limits.

My sense is that the costs to eliminate the functionality from the current system are significantly greater than the costs to pay for the benefit. This is simple cost benefit analysis in action - the ROI is what really matters. If it doesn’t make good fiscal business sense to do something then it won’t be done, especially when doing so will upset your most loyal customers.


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[Eric B]

I think it’s a combination of this plus the fact that it’s not costly enough to Wyndham to do anything about it. The cost of the VIP program is funded primarily by the program fees. If the use of resale points by VIPs were to become so costly that the program fees could no longer cover the associated costs - then I think Wyndham would consider implementing the limits.

My sense is that the costs to eliminate the functionality from the current system are significantly greater than the costs to pay for the benefit. This is simple cost benefit analysis in action - the ROI is what really matters. If it doesn’t make good fiscal business sense to do something then it won’t be done, especially when doing so will upset your most loyal customers.


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I agree to a certain extent, but think it's not really all that simple a cost-benefit analysis. IMHO, the cost side is predominated by things that aren't significant direct costs to Wyndham because they represent discounts and upgrades on vacant units in the short term (30, 45 or 60 days prior to check in); the true costs that should really come into play would be the systemic friction preventing VIP owners not using resale points from getting the benefits for the vacant units taken by VIP owners using resale points. There's likely a minor cost differential to providing the different room sizes for the upgrades. As far as the discounts go, there may have been fairly significant costs associated with the cancel and rebook method that was going on before, but now the costs are likely lower and represent (to me, anyway) improperly priced units where a VIP can monitor availability and rebook then cancel to obtain the discount or where a VIP is induced by the lower cost to book in the short term.

The real costs would be potential impact on the marketing and reputation for Wyndham to non-resale owning VIPs that have diminished access to the benefits. This is likely not a significant issue because the benefits are not guaranteed and subject to availability; it's also probably unlikely that such a VIP would learn that the cause of the non-availability was due to VIPs using resale contracts to book them. If it becomes widespread to the point that it essentially eliminates VIP benefit availability, I could see them doing something; instead it strikes me as broadening the target market for incentives to book units that would otherwise not be used.

I'm not confident that this is how they are thinking about these things, but it couldn't hurt to share the perspective that the benefits serve a marketing function in that manner; it might help motivate them to maintain them.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I agree to a certain extent, but think it's not really all that simple a cost-benefit analysis. IMHO, the cost side is predominated by things that aren't significant direct costs to Wyndham because they represent discounts and upgrades on vacant units in the short term (30, 45 or 60 days prior to check in); the true costs that should really come into play would be the systemic friction preventing VIP owners not using resale points from getting the benefits for the vacant units taken by VIP owners using resale points. There's likely a minor cost differential to providing the different room sizes for the upgrades. As far as the discounts go, there may have been fairly significant costs associated with the cancel and rebook method that was going on before, but now the costs are likely lower and represent (to me, anyway) improperly priced units where a VIP can monitor availability and rebook then cancel to obtain the discount or where a VIP is induced by the lower cost to book in the short term.

The real costs would be potential impact on the marketing and reputation for Wyndham to non-resale owning VIPs that have diminished access to the benefits. This is likely not a significant issue because the benefits are not guaranteed and subject to availability; it's also probably unlikely that such a VIP would learn that the cause of the non-availability was due to VIPs using resale contracts to book them. If it becomes widespread to the point that it essentially eliminates VIP benefit availability, I could see them doing something; instead it strikes me as broadening the target market for incentives to book units that would otherwise not be used.

I'm not confident that this is how they are thinking about these things, but it couldn't hurt to share the perspective that the benefits serve a marketing function in that manner; it might help motivate them to maintain them.

I was not implying that the cost benefit analysis itself was simplistic in nature and would only come down to two metrics - program cost vs estimated product development cost - but rather that all business decision points must be supported by established tangible, and in most cases rationalized, metrics. These types of metrics are weighted much more heavily than intangibles IME. Unless the potential marketing and reputational components, along with the inventory contention you mention, can be measured and reported - then they won’t really matter. If these items can be measured then I would agree they would be valuable to address.

I know for a fact that the VIP discount windows are tracked metrics as these are direct costs which are funded primarily by the program fees. I would have to inquire as to whether any of the other points you are raising here have metrics available that Wyndham has at their disposal.


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[dgalati]

I am probably opening up a huge can of worms by posting this, but after some deliberation, I felt it would be unfair to hold this information back because of a few people. Let’s stop the fear mongering please.

I spoke, over email, with Annie Roberts, VP of owner and Club services. I asked about resale points getting VIP benefits, and if that would change with Privileges. Her answer is below. Looks like we are safe from changes for at least another year. Maybe longer. If it ever does become financially feasible and beneficial for them to restrict resale from getting VIP benefits, I’m sure they would do it. However, if it’s not costing them anything, and if they feel it’s beneficial to maintain the status quo, they won’t likely change it anytime soon.



“VIP Discounts with Resale – our Product Development team shared we have talked a lot over the years about restricting usgage of resale contract points for any type of VIP benefits. For the Privileges changes they decided not to do anything this year because it would cost a lot more and increase our timeline.“

@Richelle my initial post about resale points being used as a VIP benefit was not intended to cause fear or mislead. The use of resale points with VIP benefits is clearly stated in owners directory but it is not enforced. I think many were not aware that this statement was in the member directory and the only thing they have to fear is if Wyndham ever enforces this rule.


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dgalati said:
Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?

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dgalati said:
The next thing Wyndham can do to help availability for all owners is to stop the use of resale points for VIP owners when booking in the 50% discount window. Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?

This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

"Important Information about VIP Membership

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.


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[Braindead]

@Richelle my initial post about resale points being used as a VIP benefit was not intended to cause fear or mislead. The use of resale points with VIP benefits is clearly stated in owners directory but it is not enforced. I think many were not aware that this statement was in the member directory and the only thing they have to fear is if Wyndham ever enforces this rule.


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• #172

This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

"Important Information about VIP Membership

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.


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Why don’t you have the same vendetta on how points get used in ALL accounts? Directory doesn’t allow deposited points to be used for ARP or to possibly be deposited again or to be deposited in RCI. But the system does allow all of those uses of deposited points.
Is this a loophole & is it being abused? Is it hurting all owners availability?
Be careful what you wish for. You evidently don’t think points should be blind.
If it’s in the directory that‘s the way it has to be or it’s a loophole & being abused hurting all owners is that your opinion?
Do you want to take away the discounted reservations for non VIPs?
Richelle post makes it perfectly clear that Wyndham understands how resale points are treated in a VIP account & they’ve clearly decided it’s not a problem that needs attention now!! So get over it !!

 

[SNA27]

Working with the Voyager reservation system, it's apparent to me that it's a frontend inquiry system and it's not the keeper of any records and reservation transactions take place at the backend. I have done a lot of experiments in the ARP window trying to make reservations at resorts where I have CWS and those where I do not. I see a rate-plan query coming into play which is just an ACK-NACK query (YES-NO). When I book WBC (where I have 84k points), it offers to book 136,000 points worth room only for the backend to reject it and Voyager pleads 'Mea Culpa' and throws me entirely out of the booking dialog so I have to start all over. Voyager is a window into the backend, that's all! I hope they don't spend one more penny on it before fixing the backend.

The backend database is currently not structured properly with a mishmash of resale and retail deeds comingled under a single master entity called MEMBER. USE-YEAR dataset which is a child of MEMBER gets comingled points from resale and retail deeds. So, you need cumbersome and spaghetti code to really enforce VIP benefit rules.
A more elegant structure would be to segregate resale and retail deeds under a new child entity of MEMBER called ACCOUNT. Accounts will be either RETAIL or RESALE and hold the corresponding deeds. PRIVILEGES or BENEFITS will be subordinate to the ACCOUNT and not MEMBER. When I get some time, I will explain this with a Database diagram. It will be so much easier to understand.
The result will be so much more elegant and simple to program the rules of the Privilege program.

What I am saying is nothing earth-shattering. It's a common-sense design. I am sure there are smart people in Wyndham IT and they already know this. Only politics and inertia must be stopping them from doing this. They can't forever be playing around the edges. They have to go in and take care of the structural flaw. They will save millions in the long run. Otherwise, they will keep spending millions coming up with BOLT-ON-UGLY solutions.
Fix the foundation before you build on it! Just saying.

 

[SNA27]

If it doesn’t make good fiscal business sense to do something then it won’t be done, especially when doing so will upset your most loyal customers.
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Do you really think the removal of an unpromised windfall will upset loyal customers?
If it did, who's to blame? Wyndham or the customer? As I said elsewhere, the Customer is not always right. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.

 

[Richelle]

@Richelle my initial post about resale points being used as a VIP benefit was not intended to cause fear or mislead. The use of resale points with VIP benefits is clearly stated in owners directory but it is not enforced. I think many were not aware that this statement was in the member directory and the only thing they have to fear is if Wyndham ever enforces this rule.


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• #172

This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

"Important Information about VIP Membership

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.


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It wasn’t just about one post. There is a lot of fear mongering going in here and on other threads. The back and forth was getting old too. I just didn’t want to kickstart the whole thing all over.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Do you really think the removal of an unpromised windfall will upset loyal customers?
If it did, who's to blame? Wyndham or the customer? As I said elsewhere, the Customer is not always right. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.

Yes, I do. In the modern business world - customer experience reigns supreme. Metrics such as CSAT, CES, NPS, and polling for impact on proposed changes carry very heavy weighting with respect to relevant business decisions. If a change is under review, and the metrics indicate that the change is going to negatively impact the customer experience, then placing blame is moot, and the change will not be approved. To ignore customer sentiment is to sign your own death warrant in today’s business climate IME.


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[Richelle]

Do you really think the removal of an unpromised windfall will upset loyal customers?
If it did, who's to blame? Wyndham or the customer? As I said elsewhere, the Customer is not always right. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.

Removing the cancel rebook loophole created a huge backlash. That was not “benefit” but many owners treated it as such, because a sales person told them it was. That’s on Wyndham. I think taking away VIP benefits from resale points, would upset a lot of VIPs, myself included. I know it’s not promised, and if dgalati’s interpretation of the directory is correct, then it’s not supposed to be allowed. Still, they allowed it to continue when they could have changed things with the last system launch. So yes, it would upset a lot of loyal customers. People are still mad about them taking away cancel rebook. If they take this away to soon, they will lose people and there will also be fewer resale contracts being sold.

The day they announce they are taking away the ability to use resale points to make discounted reservations that are eligible for free upgrades, is the day I take a two week vacation from Facebook and possibly TUG. The rants will be plentiful and long.

 

[SNA27]

Why don’t you have the same vendetta on how points get used in ALL accounts? Directory doesn’t allow deposited points to be used for ARP or to possibly be deposited again or to be deposited in RCI. But the system does allow all of those uses of deposited points.
Is this a loophole & is it being abused? Is it hurting all owners availability?
Be careful what you wish for. You evidently don’t think points should be blind.
If it’s in the directory that‘s the way it has to be or it’s a loophole & being abused hurting all owners is that your opinion?
Do you want to take away the discounted reservations for non VIPs?
Richelle post makes it perfectly clear that Wyndham understands how resale points are treated in a VIP account & they’ve clearly decided it’s not a problem that needs attention now!! So get over it !!

With all due respect, Sir, you can make the same argument without attributing vendetta to his perfectly reasonable assertion that resale points do not qualify for VIP Benefits.

There's a legal concept that says he doesn't waive his rights in a particular instance because of his failure to assert his rights in other instances, granting your claim without verification that he did so. Perhaps @Grammarhero can cite the legal precept.

 

[SNA27]

Removing the cancel rebook loophole created a huge backlash. That was not “benefit” but many owners treated it as such, because a sales person told them it was. That’s on Wyndham. I think taking away VIP benefits from resale points, would upset a lot of VIPs, myself included. I know it’s not promised, and if dgalati’s interpretation of the directory is correct, then it’s not supposed to be allowed. Still, they allowed it to continue when they could have changed things with the last system launch. So yes, it would upset a lot of loyal customers. People are still mad about them taking away cancel rebook. If they take this away to soon, they will lose people and there will also be fewer resale contracts being sold.

The day they announce they are taking away the ability to use resale points to make discounted reservations that are eligible for free upgrades, is the day I take a two week vacation from Facebook and possibly TUG. The rants will be plentiful and long.

So, what will happen? They are captive customers with prepaid vacations. Will they get upset and turn their deeds into Ovation? I remember a quote from a captain of industry saying' if customers are sullen, it's ok, if they're rebellious, it's time to worry'. So will Wyndham VIPs be sullen or rebellious? We can't even take our business elsewhere. We're captives!

 

[SNA27]

Yes, I do. In the modern business world - customer experience reigns supreme. Metrics such as CSAT, CES, NPS, and polling for impact on proposed changes carry very heavy weighting with respect to relevant business decisions. If a change is under review, and the metrics indicate that the change is going to negatively impact the customer experience, then placing blame is moot, and the change will not be approved. To ignore customer sentiment is to sign your own death warrant in today’s business climate IME.


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Are your customers captive or free to take their business elsewhere? I bet new retail VIP purchasers of Wyndham (like me) will be happy to know that they're on a level playing field. And that some VIPS are not more VIP than others. I could very easily acquire millions in resale contracts but I am not interested in setting up a rental business nor do I have the energy required to manage it. If I can rent enough to cover my annual MF, that's good enough for me. If I can't, so be it.

I have no ax to grind. I don't care if resale points qualify for VIP benefits or not. But what I detest is the selective enforcement of rules that were previously agreed to by all parties. That's not conducive to law and order. In any society, people may accede to a harsh rule (if you ever lived under HOA rules, you know as to what I am alluding) but what they can't stand is a select few bending it in their favor, imo.

 

[SNA27]

Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
@Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
@paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.

 

[dgalati]

Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
@Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
@paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.

Scheme? I believe that term is incorrect. I use my ownership to maximize the $/1000. To be clear I break no rules in owner directory nor do I skirt a rule Wyndham is not enforcing. Ovations is good for Wyndham and any owner that uses it can use current use year points according to Wyndham rules. No rule against trading of deeds also - Wyndham does it every day like I stated in past posts they bought 4 of my deeds last year after I used current use year points. Wyndham was happy to pay me 3.50/1000 for something they could sell for 200/1000. I was happy to cover my sunk cost and use all current use year points. I consider it a Win for both parties.

 

[dgalati]

Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
@Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
@paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.

Yes you are spot on with your observation of posters on this forum.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

"Important Information about VIP Membership

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory

There is no page 345 in the Club Wyndham Members Directory. The PDF version that I have readily available ends on page 310. Are you referring to page 245? If so, then the current 2018-2019 directory has no such verbiage anywhere in the VIP section - let alone page 245. Can you please clarify exactly where you are sourcing this information from? I just performed a FTI search on the current directory using the following text string: "Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status" I got zero hits back. I then backed it off to search for "resale contracts" followed by "resale" alone - again zero hits on any verbiage that supports the claim from your post. I cannot find any verbiage that exists for resale points with respect to VIP in the current members directory.

Lastly, I will point to the key verbiage that underlies the entire VIP section: VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice.

So while some may feel that allowing for resale contract points "breaks the rules", the fact is that Wyndham can change the rules for the entire VIP program at their discretion, without notice, as they have clearly done here.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Are your customers captive or free to take their business elsewhere? I bet new retail VIP purchasers of Wyndham (like me) will be happy to know that they're on a level playing field. And that some VIPS are not more VIP than others. I could very easily acquire millions in resale contracts but I am not interested in setting up a rental business nor do I have the energy required to manage it. If I can rent enough to cover my annual MF, that's good enough for me. If I can't, so be it.

I have no ax to grind. I don't care if resale points qualify for VIP benefits or not. But what I detest is the selective enforcement of rules that were previously agreed to by all parties. That's not conducive to law and order. In any society, people may accede to a harsh rule (if you ever lived under HOA rules, you know as to what I am alluding) but what they can't stand is a select few bending it in their favor, imo.

VIPs are not on a level playing field. The entire purpose of the VIP program is to grant greater amounts of benefits based upon a tiered system - which by definition means the playing field is not level - it is tiered. I'm VIPP - I in fact have better benefits than someone who is VIPG or VIPS. That's the reality. I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assessment. There are not rules agreed to by all parties within the member directory, as the directory clearly indicates: VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice. Wyndham alone can change or eliminate the entire program - and members have zero say in their decision - again not a level playing field. The only thing "all parties have agreed to" here is that Wyndham has complete discretionary control over the playing field. Go look at the other programs listed in the member directory - they all have similar verbiage. Subject to change.

The real "rules" that everyone has agreed to are not in the members directory, they are in the signed contractual documents. The legal trust documents and the contracts based upon the trust documents that we have all signed contain the real rules for the playing field, not the members directory. The members directory outlines various programs that Wyndham manages - most of which are subject to change and/or termination at any time.

 

[paxsarah]

There is no page 345 in the Club Wyndham Members Directory. The PDF version that I have readily available ends on page 310. Are you referring to page 245? If so, then the current 2018-2019 directory has no such verbiage anywhere in the VIP section - let alone page 245. Can you please clarify exactly where you are sourcing this information from? I just performed a FTI search on the current directory using the following text string: "Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status" I got zero hits back. I then backed it off to search for "resale contracts" followed by "resale" alone - again zero hits on any verbiage that outlines what you claim above. I cannot find any verbiage that you claim exists in the current members directory.

Lastly, I will point to the key verbiage that underlies the entire VIP section: VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice.

That language appears on page 345 of the 2014-15 members directory. Since the verbiage no longer appears in the 2018-19 directory (and indeed, the language in the VIP section has had minor revisions throughout from the prior directory), it seems that one can safely assume that Wyndham exercised their right to change the VIP program at any time.