Wyndham Privileges: new Wyndham VIP Levels starting late 2020 [Merged]

[ecwinch]

If millions of resale points are blocked from recieving the VIP benefits wouldn't you agree a VIP with no resale points would have a better chance of recieving what they paid for? Free upgrades and more availability in the 50% discount window would improve with this loophole being corrected by Wyndham.

"Receiving what they paid for?"..... lets unpack that.

So are we are talking about people who specifically paid to become VIP members only in order to receive some ephemeral VIP benefits that can be changed at anytime by the developer?

I think that is where your analysis is flawed. VIP benefits are not some "entitlement" program I purchased with my points. In many respects they are no different than airline loyalty programs - as they are programs where benefits can change on a moments notice, with certain benefits disappearing, or being devalued, and in a rare case - even being enhanced.

So no - I dont think anyone who specifically is buying more points just to get to a VIP level, is "entitled" to anything other than the usage of the points they purchased. Because VIP benefits are just a loyalty program, not an entitlement.

This discussion is no different than some I see on Flyertalk, where people posture about what they are entitled to, and how airlines making it easier to become elite devalues their membership. Only true if you feel you are entitled to something and fail to recognize that elite/VIP programs are about making the customer feel special so they do more business with you.

 

[ecwinch]

So when a VIP complains they are not recieving instant upgrades or there is no availability who is to blame? Wyndham or the VIP owner that has used the loophole to their advantage. Many were quick to point a finger at the megarenters when they used loopholes. Would you say this statement should have applied to them also then? If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule.

And there is a world of difference between what we used to do with "cancel/rebook" than what goes on today. That process met every criteria of a loophole and is much different. I think you are stuck trying to mine a old argument that really does not have the legs today that it used. They are apples and oranges.

So no, I dont think that argument applies.

And in regards to "who is blame" - the answer is far more likely to be all the non-VIP and resale owners who use their points for exactly what they bought them for - the ability to book a reservation. That usage contributes far more to the lack of availability and not getting upgrades. Compared to that usage, VIP's getting VIP benefits on resale points is just a rounding error IMHO.

 

[SNA27]

@ecwinch, I was always being sold into VIP levels, not points. If it was only about points, I wouldn't need 1.425M.
Btw, all of my reservations so far (72) have been made during the discount window with 38 upgrades.
So, I bought specifically based on the promise of VIP Benefits!

 

[dgalati]

It should be easy to track retail and resale points separately. This is already done in the backend systems.
It's Voyager that needs to be fixed, quite easily imo, to not club all the points together in a use-year but instead track retail versus resale separately. They do that with Bonus points right now.
Just track resale points in a separate use-year bucket and apply the VIP rules only to the retail use-year buckets. This should have been done prior to any directory changes!

But, I am willing to bet, they have already quantified the cost of 'unpromised VIP benefits availed' and decided to put it on the back burner while they are busy working on the Privileges program!

You are a IT guy you know this would be a easy fix. It would also help Wyndham sell more developer points if the cheap VIP resale rentals were eliminated.

 

[dgalati]

@ecwinch, I was always being sold into VIP levels, not points. If it was only about points, I wouldn't need 1.425M.
Btw, all of my reservations so far (72) have been made during the discount window with 38 upgrades.
So, I bought specifically based on the promise of VIP Benefits!

SNA27 a VIP like you is a good example of why Wyndham should close the loophole of resale points being used as VIP benifits. Wyndham could sell more developer points if the rule of not allowing resale points with VIP benefits was enforced.

 

[Eric B]

It should be easy to track retail and resale points separately. This is already done in the backend systems.
It's Voyager that needs to be fixed, quite easily imo, to not club all the points together in a use-year but instead track retail versus resale separately. They do that with Bonus points right now.
Just track resale points in a separate use-year bucket and apply the VIP rules only to the retail use-year buckets. This should have been done prior to any directory changes!

But, I am willing to bet, they have already quantified the cost of 'unpromised VIP benefits availed' and decided to put it on the back burner while they are busy working on the Privileges program!

Frankly, I agree with you that it should be easy to track retail and resale points separately; in fact, it should be simple to track down to the individual contract. If they were to do away with the dumping all of the points together in single use years, they could also avoid the issues with use-year realignment and allow people to have multiple use years in their ownerships without creating issues that don't need to exist by mandating a single one per account.

 

[ecwinch]

@ecwinch, I was always being sold into VIP levels, not points. If it was only about points, I wouldn't need 1.425M.
Btw, all of my reservations so far (72) have been made during the discount window with 38 upgrades.
So, I bought specifically based on the promise of VIP Benefits!

I think you misunderstand the point. Certainly people "buy" to achieve VIP status and the benefits they will receive. It is why I purchased.

But that does not create an "entitlement" that I will always receive those benefits. Like you, I almost never make a reservation without using my discount and/or my upgrade, and many times it is both. But I have to work to make that happen, and can no longer get almost any resort any time at the lowest possible credit value like I did during the cancel/rebook days. I have to be more flexible, and sometimes settle for my second or third choices in terms of resorts or even locale. I go where my discount can take me.

And for me to turn around and advocate for changes that adversely impact other members because I feel entitled to "get what I paid for", is a bridge too far for me.

 

[SNA27]

You are a IT guy you know this would be a easy fix. It would also help Wyndham sell more developer points if the cheap resales were eliminated.

If I were put in charge of solving this issue, I would suggest a more substantial fix to the backend system completely segregating resale from retail. A membership number will only be allowed to have either retail or resale and all those memberships with retail and resale comingled will get an additional membership with only resale. It would make the enforcements of VIP rules in the frontend much more elegant and easier! This is just off the cuff without knowing how the systems and databases are structured. It may be an inconvenience to some members but it's no more so than having multiple bank accounts with different rules!

 

[HitchHiker71]

So when a VIP complains they are not recieving instant upgrades or there is no availability who is to blame? Wyndham or the VIP owner that has used the loophole to their advantage. Many were quick to point a finger at the megarenters when they used loopholes. Would you say this statement should have applied to them also then? If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule.

The megarenters were using the prior loopholes for commercial use, which is now (not sure about way back when) expressly prohibited in the contracts. There is a marked difference between allowing VIP owners with resale contracts to rent out points to help break even on their annual MFs vs running a commercial enterprise. If Wyndham wants to allow their VIP owners to receive benefit from supplementary resale contracts, that is their discretion, hence the rule waive is discretionary in nature.

I would also submit that your definition of “many” is not accurate. There are probably a very small subset of VIP owners that own millions of resale points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SNA27]

I think you misunderstand the point. Certainly people "buy" to achieve VIP status and the benefits they will receive. It is why I purchased.

But that does not create an "entitlement" that I will always receive those benefits. Like you, I almost never make a reservation without using my discount and/or my upgrade, and many times it is both. But I have to work to make that happen, and can no longer get almost any resort any time at the lowest possible credit value like I did during the cancel/rebook days. I have to be more flexible, and sometimes settle for my second or third choices in terms of resorts or even locale. I go where my discount can take me.

And for me to turn around and advocate for changes that adversely impact other members because I feel entitled to "get what I paid for", is a bridge too far for me.

Agreed. I am 'entitled' to the leftover at 50% with free upgrades if available! I understood that when I bought!
But I do see that my availability screen looks way less gray than it used to when I was a VIP-Silver.
I am not one able to plan vacations 13 months in advance. Maybe I will look into renting such ARP reservations.
I do agree with @dgalati that resale points should NOT be able to get 50% discounts or VIP upgrades. But, as you said, it must be a rounding error and IT has other higher priorities.

 

[dgalati]

I think you misunderstand the point. Certainly people "buy" to achieve VIP status and the benefits they will receive. It is why I purchased.

But that does not create an "entitlement" that I will always receive those benefits. Like you, I almost never make a reservation without using my discount and/or my upgrade, and many times it is both. But I have to work to make that happen, and can no longer get almost any resort any time at the lowest possible credit value like I did during the cancel/rebook days. I have to be more flexible, and sometimes settle for my second or third choices in terms of resorts or even locale. I go where my discount can take me.

And for me to turn around and advocate for changes that adversely impact other members because I feel entitled to "get what I paid for", is a bridge too far for me.

You would not be advocating for changes tou your VIP benefits. It would be advocating for Wyndham to enforce the rules to enhance the VIP benifits that were paid for. Resale points are not a paid for VIP benefit.

 

[HitchHiker71]

SNA27 a VIP like you is a good example of why Wyndham should close the loophole of resale points being used as VIP benifits. Wyndham could sell more developer points if the rule of not allowing resale points with VIP benefits was enforced.

I think it depends on the use case in question. A VIP owner is very unlikely to purchase additional points just for the rental capacity as it’s simply not cost effective as the ROI is way too long a period of time.

VIP owners like me acquire resale contracts to generate rental income to help offset the cost of our developer point investments. I don’t see how Wyndham would sell more developer points to my persona so I don’t see how enforcing the rule of not allowing resale points to take advantage of VIP benefits would help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SNA27]

Inventory availability was the 'hook' that was used to sell me up to gold and trade my CWA up to GD deed! Improvement was marginal. But, I could see a difference after I became VIP-P in July 2018!

Directory doesn't spell out this 'inventory availability' or maybe it's just a sales gimmick. But directory is only a broad guideline. The computer programs are the regulations drawn up within the guidelines. But unlike Government regulations, we don't get to see the program specs or the actual code!

But, I do think there must be subjective factors in the routine that builds the availability calendar. Not all members are equal. Some are more equal than others!

 

[HitchHiker71]

Agreed. I am 'entitled' to the leftover at 50% with free upgrades if available! I understood that when I bought!
But I do see that my availability screen looks way less gray than it used to when I was a VIP-Silver.
I am not one able to plan vacations 13 months in advance. Maybe I will look into renting such ARP reservations.
I do agree with @dgalati that resale points should NOT be able to get 50% discounts or VIP upgrades. But, as you said, it must be a rounding error and IT has other higher priorities.

The calendars have less gray not because of your VIP status. For this to be accurate it would have to mean that the oft used “priority booking” feature touted by many a sales person would actually be true. Meaning that depending on what you own, you will “see” more inventory - which is not true. The only exceptions to this rule are PR and MVC owners.

The reason you see less gray is because of the changes made via the Voyager release that eliminated cancel/rebook and replaced the pooled points feature, along with the banning of the megarenters from the system, which were consuming an inordinate amount of the available inventory for commercial use.

If this happened to coincide with your elevation of VIP status, I can assure you it’s merely coincidence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HitchHiker71]

Inventory availability was the 'hook' that was used to sell me up to gold and trade my CWA up to GD deed! Improvement was marginal. But, I could see a difference after I became VIP-P.

Directory doesn't spell out this 'inventory availability' or maybe it's just a sales gimmick. But directory is only a broad guideline. The computer programs are the regulations drawn up within the guidelines. But unlike Government regulations, we don't get to see the program specs or the actual code!

But, I do think, there must be subjective factors in the routine that builds the availability calendar. Not all members are equal. Some are more equal than others!

It’s just a sales gimmick. Hate to tell you. Everyone can “see” the same inventory regardless of what you own - at least within the standard booking window. Even in the ARP window - I can often “see” inventory that’s not actually available for me to book.

Case in point, I was looking at available inventory at various resorts between the 10-11 month windows. At certain resorts - like with St. Thomas and Rio Mar, I could “see” available inventory beyond the 10 month window - showing as white/available in the calendar, but when I clicked on any date beyond the 10 month window - the interface informed me that the type of ownership I have doesn’t entitle me to book the available inventory. Screenshot for reference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Braindead]

One of my favorite statements that I & others have said over the years
” It doesn’t matter what the directory says, the only thing that matters is how the system works “

This benefits about ALL owners at times even resale point only owners.
A prime example is points are now blind as far as what they’re used for.
You’re given various point allocations, you could use your ARP allocation for all of your 2020 points & yet still use the point deposit feature for points still in your 2020 points bucket that technically might of been deposited forwarded from 2019. The directory says that’s not possible but it’s the way the system is designed & it does work that way.

Some here act like it’s a big loophole on resale points getting VIP benefits in a VIP account.
Do any of you think Wyndham doesn’t know how resale points work in a VIP account?? I say hell yes they do!!!!!!!
I look at abuse or loopholes are items that Wyndham may not know about or to the extent of it being abused.
I for one don’t look at the resale points in the VIPs account as a loophole!! You can argue this forever but it’s the way the system works & Wyndham not only knows it it’s the way they designed the system to work.

 

[SNA27]

So, the Grand Desert sold me on a grand lie! I was told that CWA can only see CWA inventory and CWS deeds can see CWS inventory.
And that CWA has so little inventory in the 70 resorts and none in Hawaii! Blah blah blah!
IME, Worst sale experiences: Towers at Myrtle beach, NY45, Las Vegas (both sites)

 

[Braindead]

So, the Grand Desert sold me on a grand lie! I was told that CWA can only see CWA inventory and CWS deeds can see CWS inventory.
And that CWA has so little inventory in the 70 resorts and none in Hawaii! Blah blah blah!
IME, Worst sale experiences: Towers at Myrtle beach, NY45, Las Vegas (both sites)

Another favorite saying on here is, there’s usually some truth in what they say.
What you were told is absolutely TRUE for ARP.
There’s no CWA resorts in Hawaii. So no ARP for CWA in Hawaii.
CWA only sees CWA availability in the ARP window

Not a grand lie, you just need the rest of the story

 

[SNA27]

Another favorite saying on here is, there’s usually some truth in what they say.
What you were told is absolutely TRUE for ARP.
There’s no CWA resorts in Hawaii. So no ARP for CWA in Hawaii.
CWA only sees CWA availability in the ARP window

Are you sure? Are you saying GD deed can see WBC CWS inventory or Hawaii inventory during ARP? I am sure I can play with the system and verify this!

 

[Braindead]

Are you sure? Are you saying GD deed can see WBC CWS inventory or Hawaii inventory during ARP? I am sure I can play with the system and verify this!

No I’m not saying that. GD deed can only book GD deeded owners ARP allocation availability.
Clarify you might see it but you can’t book it as HitchHiker71 pointed out

 

[HitchHiker71]

No I’m not saying that. GD deed can only book GD deeded owners ARP allocation availability.
Clarify you might see it but you can’t book it as HitchHiker71 pointed out

Correct and honestly since Voyager is far from a perfect system, my experience varies. Sometimes if you cannot book it will gray out the dates, however sometimes it shows the dates as available (white) even though I cannot book that time. Either way, as soon as you click on the start date - the system will then validate that start date against your actual ownership and indicate whether it’s valid or not.

For example, I’m a CWA/PIC only owner. Midtown 45 has zero CWA inventory - so I should not “see” any availability beyond 10 months - but I do - it’s all white for me in Jan 2021 - but when I click on any start date - the system tells me I cannot book:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HitchHiker71]

Another favorite saying on here is, there’s usually some truth in what they say.
What you were told is absolutely TRUE for ARP.
There’s no CWA resorts in Hawaii. So no ARP for CWA in Hawaii.
CWA only sees CWA availability in the ARP window

Not a grand lie, you just need the rest of the story

Agreed - half truths are often used by sales while glossing over the details that really matter. Like saying that what you own means you can only “see” certain inventory - even though this is only true for the ARP window as you said. If you are the type of owner that never books in the ARP window because you don’t plan vacations more than 10 months in advance - then this oft used sales ploy is moot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HitchHiker71]

So, the Grand Desert sold me on a grand lie! I was told that CWA can only see CWA inventory and CWS deeds can see CWS inventory.

This is generally only true in the ARP window as BD said.

And that CWA has so little inventory in the 70 resorts and none in Hawaii! Blah blah blah!
IME, Worst sale experiences: Towers at Myrtle beach, NY45, Las Vegas (both sites)

What CWA owns across the resorts varies widely. I actually maintain a spreadsheet containing exactly what inventory CWA owns that I built based upon multiple versions of the CWA POS published over time. It’s available in one of the FB groups that I’m an admin for where we publish this data for our group members. Here’s an excerpt from the sheet in question showing the exact inventory data for all CWA Florida resorts:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Eric B]

This is generally only true in the ARP window as BD said.



What CWA owns across the resorts varies widely. I actually maintain a spreadsheet containing exactly what inventory CWA owns that I built based upon multiple versions of the CWA POS published over time. It’s available in one of the FB groups that I’m an admin for where we publish this data for our group members. Here’s an excerpt from the sheet in question showing the exact inventory data for all CWA Florida resorts:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's the significance of the 104.28% for Emerald Grande?

Also, is it possible that some degree of ARP visibility is to accommodate VIP RARPs?

 

[HitchHiker71]

What's the significance of the 104.28% for Emerald Grande?

The dataset is only as accurate as what Wyndham documents in the CWA POS versions. In some cases the data reported isn’t entirely accurate so the statistics are skewed as a result. This is only the case for a small minority of the resorts though. I’m maturing the dataset over time so it will get better.

Also, is it possible that some degree of ARP visibility is to accommodate VIP RARPs?

This is why the examples I posted go out 12 months - since RARP only goes out to 11 months.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk