We are a cynical bunch on TUG. Can you believe people today are buying full-freight?

[Beefnot]

You cannot and should not expect those other owners to be ready or willing to take over your obligations anymore than you would your next door neighbor in your whole owned condo to do so. They didn't sell it to you, they didn't make a buy back promise (if there even was one) and, like you, have no ready outlet to resell any condo's or weeks they get stuck with.

Saying that this group of fellow owners somehow owes it to you to handle things is wrong. They are merely operating things and hopefully maintaining and upgrading it. If the original developer / management has stayed on then I'm with you 110%. But in many cases that just isn't the way things really are and you are looking to the wrong group to solve what you now see as a problem you chose to buy into.

What you are describing is ex post facto. GHT was describing his experience with the developer, from whom all retail purchases are made. And now, the developer is either gone or saying tough cookie. Either way, the promise that he could sell back his timeshare proves to be a joke, and he would have never purchased had he known that.

Yes, you are technically correct in the unrealism of the assumption that an HOA should honor the sins of the father. But i believe that is missing the point.

 

[rickandcindy23]

GHT bought Marriott Streamside, and much of the resort is no longer under the Marriott management. VRI is now managing part of it. GHT is probably not happy with the increase of fees Marriott is now charging to keep it Marriott, if he indeed owns in one of the sections still under Marriott's control. I would also be unhappy with the fees currently, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

GHT also indicates he owns at the Marriott Kauai Resort. That's still fairly high in value, but the salespeople should never promise the buyback of any timeshare. That's one of those situations where the sales department says one thing, and the reality is something quite different. Sales lies. Outright lies.

The thing I never get about posts like this can be stated in one sentence: Aren't you ever going on vacation again? This is the question in my mind. What about your kids and grandkids? Do they vacation? Then why not use what you own to trade into the places you want to go? Are you planning to stay in your house every day of the year for the next 20 years?

My sister-in-law bragged to me a few years ago that she was able to get Travelodge in Orlando for her daughter and her family of four. She got a "deal" on two hotel rooms because her daughter traveled with a friend and her family. She said it was only $140 X 5 nights for two hotel rooms + tax. She was so excited at her bargain deal. This was early May. :rofl:

This is a woman who struggles to pay her timeshare fees and doesn't use her Colorado weeks most years. She could have easily traded into a Marriott 2 bed, sleeps eight for the kids, but she chose not to renew her II membership because she sees no value in it.

When our niece was telling us about their wonderful Orlando vacation, I was tempted to tell her where WE stay during the off-season, just the two of us. I bit my lip and said nothing.

My sister-in-law stays in hotels all over the country, even those Extended Stay places (most of which are dumps), even Lake Tahoe in summer. This is one of the easier II exchanges.

I don't get it. Use what you have and enjoy the fabulous trading power II gives to your weeks.

 

[ronparise]

What you are describing is ex post facto. GHT was describing his experience with the developer, from whom all retail purchases are made. And now, the developer is either gone or saying tough cookie. Either way, the promise that he could sell back his timeshare proves to be a joke, and he would have never purchased had he known that.

Yes, you are technically correct in the unrealism of the assumption that an HOA should honor the sins of the father. But i believe that is missing the point.

exactly right

and I would add that the hoa is responsible for maintaining value...

not that they are required to provide a buy back program...but by maintaining or creating a place that people want to visit, resales at a fair price can be done

 

[AwayWeGo]

That's What The Best HOA-BODs Actually Do.

and I would add that the hoa is responsible for maintaining value...

not that they are required to provide a buy back program...but by maintaining or creating a place that people want to visit, resales at a fair price can be done

You typed a mouthful.

The HOA-BOD cannot be expected to perform miracles, although accomplishments by some of the best HOA-BODs are very close to miraculous.

Rising costs of living, poor economic conditions, high unemployment, skyrocketing energy prices, household budget pressures on owners, etc., all diminish the margin for error, sometimes placing timeshare HOA-BODs not so much in the position of deciding on the best options as in the tough spot of having to make the least-worst decisions.

Even so, some of'm are still able to cope, successfully.

But that means there can be no slop in the system -- e.g., no unaccounted-for floating weeks to accommodate dilatory owners who got shut out by waiting too long to reserve; no "mystery" owners whose billing addresses are unknown; little or no grace period for strapped owners late in paying their fees; no "all-skate" deedback-acceptance policy, etc.

Even in the best of times, a successful timeshare HOA-BOD has to run a tight ship -- even more so in times like these.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[DeniseM]

exactly right

and I would add that the hoa is responsible for maintaining value...

not that they are required to provide a buy back program...but by maintaining or creating a place that people want to visit, resales at a fair price can be done

The HOA just completely renovated Sheraton Vistana Resort. The units are 5 Star now with granite counters and all the fancy amenities. The resort is lovely with multiple pools, etc. It is in a desirable location in Orlando, and gets great reviews. Prime weeks have great trading value with II and RCI.

BUT - Resales are still going for $1 on ebay.

There are many factors in the resale market, that are completely out of the control of the HOA...

 

[AwayWeGo]

"Maintaining Value" Does Not Necessarily Refer To Market Value Of Timeshare Deeds.

The HOA just completely renovated Sheraton Vistana Resort. The units are 5 Star now with granite counters and all the fancy amenities. The resort is lovely with multiple pools, etc. It is in a desirable location in Orlando, and gets great reviews. Prime weeks have great trading value with II and RCI.

BUT - Resales are still going for $1 on ebay.

There are many factors in the resale market, that are completely out of the control of the HOA.

You typed a mouthful.

"Maintaining value" in the context of HOA-BOD management & operation & maintenance of a timeshare resort has lots more to do with the quality of the vacation experience at the resort while checked in on vacation, & much less to do with the market value of the deeds.

These days, lots of timeshare deeds are worth little or nothing even though the resorts are ever so nice as upscale vacation accommodations.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ronparise]

The HOA just completely renovated Sheraton Vistana Resort. The units are 5 Star now with granite counters and all the fancy amenities. The resort is lovely with multiple pools, etc. It is in a desirable location in Orlando, and gets great reviews. Prime weeks have great trading value with II and RCI.

BUT - Resales are still going for $1 on ebay.

There are many factors in the resale market, that are completely out of the control of the HOA...

Understood, but of course they must know, and accept the fact that if they cant make it worth something...Ill just dump it back in their lap when Im done (or dead)

4 season resorts like the one you mention in orlando are not the problem under discussion..there is already a pretty good market here...I would think anything in Orlando will sell as long as the seller throws in a few years paid maintenance fees

BTW ...a pretty kitchen is not what Im talking about. perhaps if they threw in a cook and a stocked refrigerator....... Im suggesting free day use for local owners, free bonus weeks, arrangements with other resorts for direct trades, an onsite rental department, a list of owners that want more weeks, split week reservations, free baby sitting at night so mom and dad can go out....breakfast in bed, discounts with the local hookers..etc etc....ie something more than the just a pillow and a roof over my head and a kitchen to make my coffee...even if it has granite counter tops...what I really want is mf cheaper than a comparable rental, and that is in the hoa's control

 

[DeniseM]

Let me see if I have this right:

1) You want fabulous amenities that no timeshare on earth has.

2) AND you expect the HOA to pay for all those amenities, AND lower the MF to below the going rate on the rental market?

How is a resort suppose to survive with more going out than coming in?

Ron - I hope you don't do your own book keeping!

 

[ronparise]

Denise

you miss my point....its not that I expect something for nothing, or that I expect the hoa to provide something at a loss...I just want a reason to own my timeshare, rather than pay rent for the same thing down the street...I need to see some value. And if I see the value so will someone else, and a resale market will exist

my point is that if its not worth more than a comparable rental than its worth nothing, and the only people that can do something about that are the owners through their hoa. If value dosent exist and there is no resale market, than the hoa will be stuck

Its not that I want all those ammenities. I am happy to own in a building with no ammenities, but in that case I expect that my mf will be less than the hotel with no ammenities down the street

when it comes to running a resort; hoa's have a huge advantage over rental properties...no profit motive. They should be able to provide their product for less than a comparable rental operation

 

[DeniseM]

I keep hearing you say this over and over, but how is the maintenance for a 2 bdm. luxury condo that sleeps 8 going to be less than a standard hotel room down the street. It's a great theory, but HOW do you do that?

I don't think the HOA has the magic wand. In this economy, there are simply more timeshares, than there are buyers - at any price. A TS is a luxury purchase - no one "needs one." It's too simplistic to say that if the HOA makes it attractive enough that people will buy. Smart consumers are not going to buy a luxury item, if they don't feel comfortable with both the purchase AND the economy. The HOA has no control over that.

So now many will say, fine, let them go bankrupt. But is that really a solution for the 80-90% of owners at the resort who are faithfully paying their maintenance fees and WANT to own at the resort?

It's complicated, and blaming everything on the HOA only looks at one piece of the puzzle.

 

[timeos2]

Using rental value - if the comparison is to motel/hotels - is a completely misleading "valuation" of timeshares. As it stands many/most timeshares do come in close to hotel/motel rates BUT, at least in many areas, far exceed the size, amenities and overall services of the regional hotels/motels. Part of the reason people choose timeshares in the first place - despite the high purchase cost - is that they are so much nicer and offer a resort vs a room. If you want to compare rental rates as the "value" then you have to compare what it costs to rent units of equal size & features. There are a few destination resorts, usually in remote island areas, that may equal most purpose built timeshare resorts not in areas like Orlando, Hilton Head, Las Vegas, etc, and you'll find they do rent in the thousands per week, not a few hundred.

It is a straw man argument making a false assumption about timeshares and then, of course, saying they fail to meet the unrealistic "value goal" the argument sets up. I don't care if I can rent a room for $100 or less in Orlando or other places we stay at timeshares as the unit isn't worth THAT to us! That doesn't make a timeshare with a $100-$150/night annual fee be "worthless". In fact it makes it a great deal if we didn't pay tens of thousands up front to buy it retail in the first place. There is a great value to good to great timeshares (and some that deserve to be gone). Like most things there isn't one answer or one rate that fits all. And using rental rates for hotels/motels is a totally bogus measurement.

 

[j1ceasar]

full freight versus cheap

TImeshares are good if you love the resort and wantthe same exact rooms . period. Its only cheap if you bought them 20 -30 years go andf the resort is well managed.

Management is not crazy and pays their top people well. thats why is so important to make sure your time share company keeps tabs on all expenses. I have two weeks with expenses of $ 607 for the TWO weeks on a penthouse one bedroom in Puerto Rico. If I wanted to rent the same it would cost me $ probably $ 2,000 or more.

Its crazy to buy some where the mainainence costs you $ 100-150 per day or more for a studio or one bedroom, Most resorts that seem to be time share would rent for same amount so why spend 5 -10 -20,000 and be tied into maintanence ?



Also- just think of this , in Orlando alone - one developer has a large 5,000 unit complex, thats times 52 weeks = 250,000 + sales would be needed for his complex alone.. Crazy.... biennial would be one half million sales . so one out of 100 families in he usa would need to buy one week to sell out...!!!

 

[j1ceasar]

value

by the way - I was gifted 4 weeks in puerto rico and am very happy with ESJ towers.

Further I paid $ 1.00 for a two bedroom fixed week in escapes at stonebridge in Branson.. Also happy ! now thats value !!!

and its true t compare apples to apples - just go to any major travel site and click the rental rates to compare costs... typically a good timeshare rental is $ 100 -150 while a lessor resort may be $ 100 a nte.. but it doesn't mean you need to overpay....

 

[AwayWeGo]

Forget The Timeshare Company. Look To An Independent Board For Keeping Tabs On Costs.

Management is not crazy and pays their top people well. thats why is so important to make sure your time share company keeps tabs on all expenses.

One element in The Wisdom Of TUG is that timeshare companies in general are less thrifty with the unit owners' money than independent homeowner associations controlled by owner-centered directors who aren't much (if any) interested in the timeshare company's profit-loss position.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ronparise]

Denise

if this is directed at me....Its not what Im saying

I use the word "comparable" Of course a 2 bedroom condo is not comparable to a flea bag, motel room and Im not trying to make that comparison

Using your example of a 2 bedroom condo...if there are 2 bedroom condos and single family homes available that compare to your timeshare, I expect that your mf will be less than the rent being charged for that condo or house

There is a guy (timeo2) that posts on these boards that advises renting timeshares rather than owning them...because he can rent the exact same product we own, for less than mf. and he doesnt have the ongoing responsibility of an owner. If he is right and he can rent the same unit, in the very building I own, and he can do for less than my mf.....

thats a problem that I think the HOA needs to address...because if they dont, they are accepting the fact that ownership is worthless, and they are tempting me to stop paying mf and start renting

My solution my be simplistic (In a simple guy) and in fact there may not be a solution to this complex problem ...But if a solution is not found...there will be defaults and all that suggests

The PCCs and the infamous Dr Rich will step in to take advantage of this situation...or save the day, depending on your point of view

I keep hearing you say this over and over, but how is the maintenance for a 2 bdm. luxury condo that sleeps 8 going to be less than a standard hotel room down the street. It's a great theory, but HOW do you do that?

I don't think the HOA has the magic wand. In this economy, there are simply more timeshares, than there are buyers - at any price. A TS is a luxury purchase - no one "needs one." It's too simplistic to say that if the HOA makes it attractive enough that people will buy. Smart consumers are not going to buy a luxury item, if they don't feel comfortable with both the purchase AND the economy. The HOA has no control over that.

So now many will say, fine, let them go bankrupt. But is that really a solution for the 80-90% of owners at the resort who are faithfully paying their maintenance fees and WANT to own at the resort?

It's complicated, and blaming everything on the HOA only looks at one piece of the puzzle.

 

[kalua]

benefits of buying from developer

I just bought a week from the developer so I could have a new timeshare and all the free coffee i can drink, and a usa today ! I don't know why anyone would by resale ! imho !!

 

[robcrusoe]

I just bought a week from the developer so I could have a new timeshare and all the free coffee i can drink, and a usa today ! I don't know why anyone would by resale ! imho !!

well said!

 

[Passepartout]

I'm gonna get a T-shirt with a great big TUG logo and a caption that says: Thanks for buying here so I can buy resale. Then I can wear it around the resort and to the 'update'.

Jim

 

[timeos2]

While I have become a strong proponent of renting for most (but not all) timeshare use even that doesn't mean the rental rate sets the bar for fees. That's because although we can often find rentals for less those are only available because someone already paid the fees due. Unfortunately (for the payer not renters) then many end up as cheap exchange company rentals or with owners just looking for something when they can't use it. It still isn't a true measure but rather a subsidized rate that may not last forever (but are a great deal now).

 

[ronparise]

While I have become a strong proponent of renting for most (but not all) timeshare use even that doesn't mean the rental rate sets the bar for fees. That's because although we can often find rentals for less those are only available because someone already paid the fees due. Unfortunately (for the payer not renters) then many end up as cheap exchange company rentals or with owners just looking for something when they can't use it. It still isn't a true measure but rather a subsidized rate that may not last forever (but are a great deal now).

In my post I didnt mean to say rental prices set the bar for maintenance fees...and by the same token, when I rent a unit I cant care what my fees are, I have to consider the market

What I do mean to say is the relationship between rental prices and mf is the number one factor I consider when buying a timeshare.....If rents are twice mf, Im a buyer...If mf is twice rents Ill pass

My concern is for the resorts where mf is more than rent...I see that as a developing problem, And for what its worth, my advice for the HOAs in these situations is to get to work, and develop a plan of attack to solve it

Something as simple as what TUG Brian has suggested; HOAs can make a better offer to their owners than the PCCs and accept deed backs with a payment equal to 2 or 3 years mf; would be a start

 

[ace2000]

If I can't rent my week for higher than the maintenance fees, then what's the advantage of owning the timeshare? I mean really, why own? Especially prime weeks at a resort.

I know that causes a problem for some. However, I'm in agreement with Ron (and others) on this thread.

 

[DeniseM]

One reason for owning is to get the exact week, and unit that you want every year. For instance, a particular ocean front unit for the 4th of July week, which might be very difficult to acquire any other way.

Or you might own a particular TS because it is a strong trader - some great traders aren't great money makers as renters.

Or you might own a TS because it has cheap bonus time for owners.

We own TS's that fit all 3 of these descriptions.

 

[DeniseM]

HOAs can make a better offer to their owners than the PCCs and accept deed backs with a payment equal to 2 or 3 years mf; would be a start

OK - I'll bite - if someone is having financial problems, how are they going to pay 2 or 3 years MF's? This takes care of the people who just want out, but how about people with with serious financial problems.

Don't get me wrong - it's a start - but there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problems with timeshares, because every resort with problems is different:

-Some have poor management or are under the control of the developer
-Some haven't been maintained
-Some are great, but the MF's are excessive
-Some are in areas that are over-built, so no matter what they do, supply exceeds demand (Florida & Las Vegas & Mexico)
-Some are just too old and are not salvageable
-Some have completely corrupt sales staff that have sold the TS's under false pretenses (Mexico)

It is not a simple problem - because it's not just ONE problem.

 

[ace2000]

OK - I'll bite - if someone is having financial problems, how are they going to pay 2 or 3 years MF's? This takes care of the people who just want out, but how about people with with serious financial problems.

Agreed. People with serious financial problems will still struggle.

But, at least this would cut out the PCC's, and probably take out almost all of the selling companies.

 

[ace2000]

One reason for owning is to get the exact week, and unit that you want every year. For instance, a particular ocean front unit for the 4th of July week, which might be very difficult to acquire any other way.

Or you might own a particular TS because it is a strong trader - some great traders aren't great money makers as renters.

Or you might own a TS because it has cheap bonus time for owners.

We own TS's that fit all 3 of these descriptions.

Agree on all your points. However, everyone has a different value they place on these options.

If the timeshare model is going to work, then an owner has to be able to rent for more than the maintenance fees. Otherwise, people will bail. Not all, but a lot. And it starts the vicious downward spiral.