We are a cynical bunch on TUG. Can you believe people today are buying full-freight?

[brucecz]

Not sure what your point is with this post but I consider myself a compete cynic when it comes to the "selflessness" of timeshare salesmen who are offering a great deal on a product that is going to appreciate in value, get you any trade you like and can be rented for twice your maintenance fees.

So I guess there's two of us at least, Cindy - LOL!!

Bev

Make it at LEAST 3 of us. But I would like to thank the uneducated for buying from the developers so we who buy resale get to go to the same resorts for pennies on the dollar.

For those who bought from a developer say good by to most of your "Timeshare INVESTMENT dollars"

Bruce

 

[robcrusoe]

Not sure what your point is with this post but I consider myself a compete cynic when it comes to the "selflessness" of timeshare salesmen who are offering a great deal on a product that is going to appreciate in value, get you any trade you like and can be rented for twice your maintenance fees.

So I guess there's two of us at least, Cindy - LOL!!

Bev

Not sure what your definition of a 'compete cynic' is, but if there's a cure, I hope you find it

You hear what you want to hear, no timeshare salesman says that your timeshare will appreciate in value. You "hear" that when they say that the price will be going up. Listen next time you subject yourself to an update or presentation.

 

[Karen G]

You hear what you want to hear, no timeshare salesman says that your timeshare will appreciate in value. You "hear" that when they say that the price will be going up. Listen next time you subject yourself to an update or presentation.

What's the difference in those two statements?

 

[Beefnot]

What's the difference in those two statements?

The difference is that the first statement explicitly suggests that your timeshare will be worth more in resale in the future, like houses. The second statement is articulating that the retail developer pricing will increase. The second statement is likely a true statement, although worded deliberately so that you "hear" the first statement.

 

[robcrusoe]

What's the difference in those two statements?

very different

Saying that the developer's price will be going up is NOT saying that the property, membership, or interest; whatever it is they are selling, will appreciate in value. You "hear" that whatever it is they are selling will appreciate in value because that's what you want to hear.

If you went in to buy a new car and the car salesman told you, you'd better buy this last vehicle in stock because the next shipment will have a higher price tag, would you assume that the one you are contemplating buying would have a higher value than what you paid if you were to sell it tomorrow?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Rob Crusoe is coming from what perspective?

I don't go to timeshare presentations anymore, but I can tell you FOR SURE, as a real estate broker myself, timeshare salespeople very definitely do insinuate an increase in value and equity, when they are trying to sell.

They are lying.

The entire point of this thread is simple. We on TUG tell people:

Rescind recent purchases and be sure you have a return receipt for proof; to reconsider the "free" timeshare someone is offering; a timeshare presentation isn't worth the aggravation for a $100 gift; and last but not least, most timeshares aren't even worth the $1 and free closing on eBay.

There are a lot of others, I am sure, but I am unable to spend the time. I am on the way to breakfast. :rofl:

 

[BevL]

. . . There are a lot of others, I am sure, but I am unable to spend the time. I am on the way to breakfast. :rofl:

You and me both. I don't have time for word games, I have work to do and company coming for dinner.

Keep the faith, you bunch of cynics - LOL!!

 

[robcrusoe]

Full-freight is Alan's phrase. I stole it. Daily, timeshare salespeople all over the country and world are selling timeshares to people who think it's a great idea.

We need to convince those people that our used timeshares are as good as any of those new ones (which are all used, too, according to Alan).

Why is it that only a timeshare presentation with high pressure can get someone to take a timeshare? If you have a free timeshare in a GC or 5* resort, you cannot give it away!

Maybe we are looking in the wrong places for people who will buy our timeshares.

How can we turn this around?

Rob Crusoe is coming from what perspective?

I don't go to timeshare presentations anymore, but I can tell you FOR SURE, as a real estate broker myself, timeshare salespeople very definitely do insinuate an increase in value and equity, when they are trying to sell.

They are lying.

The entire point of this thread is simple. We on TUG tell people:

Rescind recent purchases and be sure you have a return receipt for proof; to reconsider the "free" timeshare someone is offering; a timeshare presentation isn't worth the aggravation for a $100 gift; and last but not least, most timeshares aren't even worth the $1 and free closing on eBay.

There are a lot of others, I am sure, but I am unable to spend the time. I am on the way to breakfast.

What perspective is it that you're talking about? You start a thread with a post entitled We are a cynical bunch on TUG. Can you believe people today are buying full-freight? but when questioned, you're too busy to answer because you're going to breakfast. You name call or insinuate that I am something else, yet you're all about making money with your own resale and rentals. You're right, you are cynical. Let the poor developer and timeshare salesman be, caveat emptor!

 

[Karen G]

If you went in to buy a new car and the car salesman told you, you'd better buy this last vehicle in stock because the next shipment will have a higher price tag, would you assume that the one you are contemplating buying would have a higher value than what you paid if you were to sell it tomorrow?

Of course not! Most people recognize that once you drive the car off the lot, you'll get less for it than you paid if you try to sell it.

But that's exactly how buying timeshare from the developer is like buying a new car. Unfortunately, most of the people who buy from the developer don't realize that until it's too late. The clever timeshare salesman hopes so anyway.

Hopefully, people can get educated here on how the whole timeshare thing works before they make purchases that may not be in their best interest.

 

[Beefnot]

Rob Crusoe is coming from what perspective?

I don't go to timeshare presentations anymore, but I can tell you FOR SURE, as a real estate broker myself, timeshare salespeople very definitely do insinuate an increase in value and equity, when they are trying to sell.

They are lying.

Allowing a customer to hear what they want to hear is not lying. Lying is lying. There is a difference.

 

[Karen G]

The difference is that the first statement explicitly suggests that your timeshare will be worth more in resale in the future, like houses. The second statement is articulating that the retail developer pricing will increase. The second statement is likely a true statement, although worded deliberately so that you "hear" the first statement.

Allowing a customer to hear what they want to hear is not lying. Lying is lying. There is a difference.

Based on your first posted quote, the first statement about the timeshare being worth more in resale is an outright lie. In the second quote, the part about letting the customer "hear" what they want to, is at least misleading if not an outright lie.

Here's the definition of lying:

ly·ing1    [lahy-ing] Show IPA
noun
1.
the telling of lies, or false statements; untruthfulness: From boyhood, he has never been good at lying. Synonyms: falsehood, falsity, mendacity, prevarication. Antonyms: truth, veracity.


2.
telling or containing lies; deliberately untruthful; deceitful; false: a lying report. Synonyms: deceptive, misleading, mendacious, fallacious; sham, counterfeit. Antonyms: true, candid, actual, correct, accurate, trustworthy.

So, if the salesman lies in any part of his presentation, he's lying, and definitely trying to mislead his prospect. Blaming the customer for "hearing what he wants to hear" doesn't change things.

 

[Beefnot]

Based on your first posted quote, the first statement about the timeshare being worth more in resale is an outright lie. In the second quote, the part about letting the customer "hear" what they want to, is at least misleading if not an outright lie.

Here's the definition of lying:

ly·ing1    [lahy-ing] Show IPA
noun
1.
the telling of lies, or false statements; untruthfulness: From boyhood, he has never been good at lying. Synonyms: falsehood, falsity, mendacity, prevarication. Antonyms: truth, veracity.


2.
telling or containing lies; deliberately untruthful; deceitful; false: a lying report. Synonyms: deceptive, misleading, mendacious, fallacious; sham, counterfeit. Antonyms: true, candid, actual, correct, accurate, trustworthy.

So, if the salesman lies in any part of his presentation, he's lying, and definitely trying to mislead his prospect. Blaming the customer for "hearing what he wants to hear" doesn't change things.

I was reinforcing what robcrusoe was saying insofar that by saying prices will rise may be a true statement. If the salesman has not expressly said that your TS will appreciate in value, he has not lied, and you have to own responsibility for what you interpreted. Yes, it is likely a deliberate sales tactic to use phrases that are factual yet can create impressions with the customer that are intentionally different. That in no way is lying.

 

[Beefnot]

Also, deception is the act of concealing or distorting the truth. I am not claiming that TS salesmen do not lie. I am simply saying that the statement that prices are rising is not necessarily a lie. It may indeed be a factual statement, with no concealment or distortion of truth.

 

[DeniseM]

robcrusoe - Are you a TS sales person, or have you been in the past? That would be my guess, based on your enthusiastic defense of same.

BTW - regarding your reported post: If a poster calls YOU a name, that would be considered a violation of the posting rules. But if a poster uses a name to describe a vague business type - that does not violate the rules.

For instance - "DeniseM is a fat cow" - violates the rules.

"[*Upfront fee scammers] are a bunch of sleaze bags" - does not violate the rules.

*Changed my example.

 

[Beefnot]

It is clear from his response that robcrusoe is indeed a TS salesman. He may be personally no less ethical than a salesman in any other field, but this is a TS forum, so he's gonna hear the TS salesmen are sleazebags line a lot. I will go so far to concede that there may be much of what TS salesmen say that are simply slick sales tactics. If they are using sales tactics that sre not untruths or deliberate distortions of truth, then they are in no less noble a profession as the practice of law. But i do realize, this is a TS forum, not a law forum.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Allowing a customer to hear what they want to hear is not lying. Lying is lying. There is a difference.

Leaving out information is lying, as Bev's definition states. What truly honest person can sell a timeshare? There are a couple of TUG members here who used to be timeshare salespeople and couldn't lie to people any longer. What a terrible way to make a living. UGH! I don't wish it on anyone, but there is a special group of people who will take advantage of people in that way.

Let's make it personal and create a scenario. Beefnot, you are hired to sell timeshare at VV@Parkway in Orlando. If you know the timeshare you are selling is on eBay for a few hundred bucks, then how could you take the money of a young couple with small kids, who don't even own a house yet.

They will probably hurt their chances to buy a house, because you are pushing, "A lifetime of vacations and memories for your family." The interest rate on the loan you are offering is also 15%. This $20K purchase will give them 92,500 RCI Points.

That couple can have both: the house and the timeshare, if they only check eBay. You know about it, but you would rather make your money off the sorrow of this young couple.

Disney Vacation Club timeshare salespeople are different. Some Marriott timeshare salespeople are okay, too. I actually had one Marriott salesperson who was very honest about our chances of getting Hawaii in exchange with a developer purchase at Marriott Branson. I was ready to buy, based on the lockoff/ exchange possibilities. He said Hawaii would be very difficult for Platinum season at Branson.

 

[robcrusoe]

robcrusoe - Are you a TS sales person, or have you been in the past? That would be my guess, based on your enthusiastic defense of same.

BTW - regarding your reported post: If a poster calls YOU a name, that would be considered a violation of the posting rules. But if a poster uses a name to describe a vague business type - that does not violate the rules.

For instance - "DeniseM is a fat cow" - violates the rules.

"[*Upfront fee scammers] are a bunch of sleaze bags" - does not violate the rules.

*Changed my example.

It is clear from his response that robcrusoe is indeed a TS salesman. He may be personally no less ethical than a salesman in any other field, but this is a TS forum, so he's gonna hear the TS salesmen are sleazebags line a lot. I will go so far to concede that there may be much of what TS salesmen say that are simply slick sales tactics. If they are using sales tactics that sre not untruths or deliberate distortions of truth, then they are in no less noble a profession as the practice of law. But i do realize, this is a TS forum, not a law forum.

I am not, nor have I ever been a sales person for anything. This BBS seems great and an educated consumer is the best customer, with the exception of those who want everything for nothing and don't think that they should be responsible for anything.

 

[Beefnot]

Leaving out information is lying, as Bev's definition states. What truly honest person can sell a timeshare? There are a couple of TUG members here who used to be timeshare salespeople and couldn't lie to people any longer. What a terrible way to make a living. UGH! I don't wish it on anyone, but there is a special group of people who will take advantage of people in that way.

Let's make it personal and create a scenario. Beefnot, you are hired to sell timeshare at VV@Parkway in Orlando. If you know the timeshare you are selling is on eBay for a few hundred bucks, then how could you take the money of a young couple with small kids, who don't even own a house yet.

They will probably hurt their chances to buy a house, because you are pushing, "A lifetime of vacations and memories for your family." The interest rate on the loan you are offering is also 15%. This $20K purchase will give them 92,500 RCI Points.

That couple can have both: the house and the timeshare, if they only check eBay. You know about it, but you would rather make your money off the sorrow of this young couple.

Disney Vacation Club timeshare salespeople are different. Some Marriott timeshare salespeople are okay, too. I actually had one Marriott salesperson who was very honest about our chances of getting Hawaii in exchange with a developer purchase at Marriott Branson. I was ready to buy, based on the lockoff/ exchange possibilities. He said Hawaii would be very difficult for Platinum season at Branson.

Leaving out information is not necessarily lying. If you reflect long enough, you can probably generate several examples. And the scenario you describe, i dont have the stomach to do it, no more so than i have the stomach to vigorously represent a guilty man or aggressively prosecute a weak case or work for an HMO. But i will not go so far to say that TS salesmen are any worse than lawyers or insurance companies. At least they aren't in many cases inserting themselves directly in the middle of life and death decisions, and unscrupulously so at that.

It is not the TS salesman's job to tell anyone that they can buy roughly the same thing for pennies on the dollar. When I go to Best Buy, I don't expect the sales associate to tell me to turn back around and log onto amazon.com to get the same product for 20% cheaper.

In any case, let us celebrate that if it werent for retail, there would be no resale. Let us enjoy our vacations!

 

[robcrusoe]

In any case, let us celebrate that if it werent for retail, there would be no resale. Let us enjoy our vacations!

Doesn't take being cynical to do that, does it?

 

[gelinasrj]

An Organized Approach For Florida

I am focusing on Florida because that is probably the largest concentration of TS units with the fewest number of major access highways I95 and I75).

In every newsletter, we read about someone finding TUG before buying a TS at retail. So how do we make everyone aware of TUG and that there are resales available? ADVERTISING. If only there were a way to create an organization that could raise funds to counter the TS marketers by buying ten billboards along I95 from Georga to Daytona saying:

'Before Buying A Time Share - Google TUG'

'Save Thousands on a Time Share - Google TUG'

I am sure other TUG members could think up more creative sayings.

If new sales could be reduced by even 10%, the Time Share companies probably would have to re-think their expansion plans and start thinking about offering buy-backs.

 

[Vincent Lehr]

The biggest reason it is difficult to sell your timeshare is like Ron said it is a product that is SOLD. And the biggest part of sales is people buy the salesperson and NOT the product. Many people buy just because they like the salesperson and they feel good around them. I know timeshare salesman get a bad name and many for good reason, but after being in the business over a decade most of them are good people that believe and use their products.

Sales are created by creating emotion not by posting an ad on a website for a great deal. It is impossible for Anyone to make a decision without having some kind of emotion attached to it. That is were the sales pro comes in and thats why they make more than most DR.'s because it is a hard thing to do. If you could just sell something buy making it a good deal in an ad the developers would just inflate the price and put an ad up for half. In 99.9% of casses no one wakes up with the intention of buying a timeshare. Try using a licensed broker that doesn't charge an upfront fee if you are looking to sell at www.ltrba.com

 

[GHT]

very different

Saying that the developer's price will be going up is NOT saying that the property, membership, or interest; whatever it is they are selling, will appreciate in value. You "hear" that whatever it is they are selling will appreciate in value because that's what you want to hear.

If you went in to buy a new car and the car salesman told you, you'd better buy this last vehicle in stock because the next shipment will have a higher price tag, would you assume that the one you are contemplating buying would have a higher value than what you paid if you were to sell it tomorrow?

The car analogy does not fit timeshares. A gym membership with a huge non-refundable initiation fee and an annual dues is a better analogy.

In my first sales presentation the timeshare sales people stated that when we are no longer able to use our timeshares we could sell the timeshares back to them. I asked how much the timeshares would depreciate over time, anticipating that I probably would not recover the full amount of the purchase price. The timeshare sales people stated that timeshares do not depreciate over time, and that they actually appreciate in value over time. So then I asked if that meant that I could sell it back to them for the appreciated value of my initial purchase price and the sales people said probably not, but that I could always get back the amount that I paid.

This was many years ago, and over the years my wife and I have purchased several timeshares, and I always asked the same question to the sales people about the end of life cycle for the timeshare, and I always got the same answer that I could always sell it back to them.

It is now many years later and my wife and I are close to retirement, our kids are grown up, and we are not able to use the timeshares like we used to. So I have inquired about selling the timeshares back to the timeshare companies who sold them to us originally. What I have been told by the timeshare companies is that they do not buy the timeshares back, and it is up to me to find a buyer. The timeshare companies are not interested in getting involved in this end of life cycle process even though the sales people always said they would. This is extremely fraudulent in my opinion.

The timeshare companies are only interested in maintaining their revenue stream from the constantly increasing maintenance fees. This is made evident by the fact that the maintenance fees include a line item for bad debt expense from other timeshare owners who have defaulted on their maintenance fees, but the timeshare companies are ensuring they still get that revenue by passing the bad debt expense to the other timeshare owners who are still able to pay the maintenance fees.

At the timeshare sales presentations they described the maintenance fees as being directed toward the maintenance and upkeep of the buildings and furnishings in the buildings, but they never mentioned that the maintenance fees were intended to maintain their revenue stream in the event of defaulting timeshare owners by passing the bad dept on to the other timeshare owners. This is also extremely fraudulent in my opinion.

I would never have purchased our first timeshare if the sales people had been honest about the end of life cycle process on timeshares for timeshare owners. Instead, my wife and I now have several timeshares that we want to sell back to the timeshare companies, and these companies refuse to honor what the sales people said to us. And to make matters worse, the timeshare companies won't even take back timeshares for free, because they enjoy the easy-money of maintenance fees going on into perpetuity.

The way the timeshare industry is right now is more like a fitness club or country club with a huge non-refundable "initiation fee", and an "annual dues" that goes on into perpetuity. The industry gets to raise the amount of the "annual dues" at will so as to maintain the revenue stream to which they have become accustomed.

 

[Beefnot]

The car analogy does not fit timeshares. A gym membership with a huge non-refundable initiation fee and an annual dues is a better analogy.

In my first sales presentation the timeshare sales people stated that when we are no longer able to use our timeshares we could sell the timeshares back to them. I asked how much the timeshares would depreciate over time, anticipating that I probably would not recover the full amount of the purchase price. The timeshare sales people stated that timeshares do not depreciate over time, and that they actually appreciate in value over time. So then I asked if that meant that I could sell it back to them for the appreciated value of my initial purchase price and the sales people said probably not, but that I could always get back the amount that I paid.

This was many years ago, and over the years my wife and I have purchased several timeshares, and I always asked the same question to the sales people about the end of life cycle for the timeshare, and I always got the same answer that I could always sell it back to them.

It is now many years later and my wife and I are close to retirement, our kids are grown up, and we are not able to use the timeshares like we used to. So I have inquired about selling the timeshares back to the timeshare companies who sold them to us originally. What I have been told by the timeshare companies is that they do not buy the timeshares back, and it is up to me to find a buyer. The timeshare companies are not interested in getting involved in this end of life cycle process even though the sales people always said they would. This is extremely fraudulent in my opinion.

The timeshare companies are only interested in maintaining their revenue stream from the constantly increasing maintenance fees. This is made evident by the fact that the maintenance fees include a line item for bad debt expense from other timeshare owners who have defaulted on their maintenance fees, but the timeshare companies are ensuring they still get that revenue by passing the bad debt expense to the other timeshare owners who are still able to pay the maintenance fees.

At the timeshare sales presentations they described the maintenance fees as being directed toward the maintenance and upkeep of the buildings and furnishings in the buildings, but they never mentioned that the maintenance fees were intended to maintain their revenue stream in the event of defaulting timeshare owners by passing the bad dept on to the other timeshare owners. This is also extremely fraudulent in my opinion.

I would never have purchased our first timeshare if the sales people had been honest about the end of life cycle process on timeshares for timeshare owners. Instead, my wife and I now have several timeshares that we want to sell back to the timeshare companies, and these companies refuse to honor what the sales people said to us. And to make matters worse, the timeshare companies won't even take back timeshares for free, because they enjoy the easy-money of maintenance fees going on into perpetuity.

The way the timeshare industry is right now is more like a fitness club or country club with a huge non-refundable "initiation fee", and an "annual dues" that goes on into perpetuity. The industry gets to raise the amount of the "annual dues" at will so as to maintain the revenue stream to which they have become accustomed.

Well stated. I wonder if TS companies knew back in the 80s and 90s that the value of timeshares would approach total collapse like we are currently witnessing, or did they expect that there would be some decent resale pricing support. If TS salesmen are still spitting lines today about buying the TS back at what you paid or even some healthy fraction of it, then they are lying sacks of shishkabob who ought to burn in hell along with Johnnie Cochran.

 

[tiel]

The thing is, if some people didn't pay full-freight, we could never buy resale. So we need to show some appreciation for these folks! I know today enough people have already paid full-freight, so there are now plenty of timeshares available in the resale market, just about anywhere you'd like to buy during any season of any quality, and that would certainly be the route to take now...especially given the recent/current market situation. But if and when any new resorts come along, you have to count upon the full-freighters to ever be able to buy resale at those resorts.

So, it's good that some folks want to go the developer route. It's bad, though, that many who are persuaded to buy from the developer really can't afford to do so, but they just don't realize it at the time they buy and end up in financial trouble later. Even if they purchase resale, they can still get into financial difficulties, although it wouldn't be as bad.

I don't like how the industry operates, and I wish it could be different so there were more protections for all buyers, but that just ain't gonna happen...imho! There is just too much $$$$ to be made, and so much greed, at all levels of the industry.

 

[timeos2]

The timeshare companies are only interested in maintaining their revenue stream from the constantly increasing maintenance fees. This is made evident by the fact that the maintenance fees include a line item for bad debt expense from other timeshare owners who have defaulted on their maintenance fees, but the timeshare companies are ensuring they still get that revenue by passing the bad debt expense to the other timeshare owners who are still able to pay the maintenance fees.

At the timeshare sales presentations they described the maintenance fees as being directed toward the maintenance and upkeep of the buildings and furnishings in the buildings, but they never mentioned that the maintenance fees were intended to maintain their revenue stream in the event of defaulting timeshare owners by passing the bad dept on to the other timeshare owners. This is also extremely fraudulent in my opinion.

I would never have purchased our first timeshare if the sales people had been honest about the end of life cycle process on timeshares for timeshare owners. Instead, my wife and I now have several timeshares that we want to sell back to the timeshare companies, and these companies refuse to honor what the sales people said to us. And to make matters worse, the timeshare companies won't even take back timeshares for free, because they enjoy the easy-money of maintenance fees going on into perpetuity.
.

You are mixing apples and oranges here. What you are saying is true IF you're dealing with a resort/system such as Marriott, Wyndham, Hilton, Westgate etc that never get out of the process. They are the ones that develop, sell, operate, assess and hopefully properly maintain and upgrade it. They do basically hold you hostage, create a never ending revenue stream for themselves and should, if they sold it with the promise, take it back when the day comes you are no longer able to keep it (although only if that was actually stated).

But in the vast majority of timeshares the actual developer/seller (or "timeshare company" as you call them) aren't part of things anymore. They develop it, sell it and, after the initial start up, turn operation and management over to the owners - you. There is no longer a "timeshare company" just you and hundreds or thousands of other owners just like you that now own a condo and operate through an HOA. There are just many more of you than in the average condo as you don't own all 52 weeks, don't live on site and are likely scattered all over the country or even world.

You cannot and should not expect those other owners to be ready or willing to take over your obligations anymore than you would your next door neighbor in your whole owned condo to do so. They didn't sell it to you, they didn't make a buy back promise (if there even was one) and, like you, have no ready outlet to resell any condo's or weeks they get stuck with.

Saying that this group of fellow owners somehow owes it to you to handle things is wrong. They are merely operating things and hopefully maintaining and upgrading it. If the original developer / management has stayed on then I'm with you 110%. But in many cases that just isn't the way things really are and you are looking to the wrong group to solve what you now see as a problem you chose to buy into.